EPTlurkers are the problem solution imo, morphed from roaches @T2
Lurker Strength - Page 12
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in7e.sCream
Germany48 Posts
lurkers are the problem solution imo, morphed from roaches @T2 | ||
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TekKpriest
308 Posts
On September 08 2010 23:58 sleepingdog wrote: although I think pretty much everyone agrees that zerg needs another unit (not because of imbalance but simply because of versatility), I think it would be a horrible idea to bring back the lurker - simply because I want to play starcraft 2 and NOT simply broodwar with better graphics; there would be no point at all in developing a new game if you end up playing it exactly the way broodwar was played I really hope zerg gets a cool new unit with the expansion, but - again - I hope it will be a unit that isn't just lurker_v_2.0 A new unit (or better several units) with the expansion might be too late. We have to wait 16-18 months for HotS, which is simply too long. Sure not all gameplay possibilities are used yet, but i see Zerg pretty much "mined out" soon. and a lurker brought back wouldn't be SC:BW reloaded. Sure it has it similarities, but what of Terran and Toss? The Lurker pretty much would adress some of the current weaknesses the Zerg has, which in my opinion should be adressed pretty soon. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
A new unit (or better several units) with the expansion might be too late. We have to wait 16-18 months for HotS, which is simply too long. Sure not all gameplay possibilities are used yet, but i see Zerg pretty much "mined out" soon. I agree - but then again, do you "really" think blizzard will add new units just with a patch? | ||
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urashimakt
United States1591 Posts
On September 08 2010 23:00 Sueco wrote: The more I look at the SC2 lurker, the more I come to believe they are exactly the change that Z needs. Tier 2.5 Lurkers with a (possible) T3 range upgrade would: -Give zerg its only actual stealth attacker. -Give zerg its only positional defense unit. -Gives a solution against MMM spam that does not involve the fragile and micro-intensive baneling. Even banelings lose their effectiveness as The MMM ball grows in size and its firepower strays into the realm of the riddiculous. Lurkers would punish all those 8-rax a-movers, forcing them to develop something resembling the intelligence a Z player needs to display when facing a tank line. -Banelings and Lurkers do not overlap. They complement. Late-game, you often see toss players facing MMM use both templars and colossi. The combined area damage is actually very usefull, not overlapping at all. I foresee a similar synergistic relation between banelings and lurkers. Banelings are great at destroying marines, and lurkers, which have a slight bonus to armored, would handle those pesky marauders. Bottom line is, considering the current public disenchantment with Z, drastic changes are needed. Lurkers are a universally loved classic and could provide a much-needed gameplay shake-up. Out of all the posts that state "I feel that bringing back the lurker would fix most/all of zerg problems", this one is the only one that actually made any valid points. Learn from this if you like to be persuasive instead of ramblin'. Here's why these reasons might not fit, though: "Give zerg its only actual stealth attacker." Giving something to a race simply because they don't have one yet doesn't mean balance, it means making all 3 races the same. It might be a very good decision, but you'd need more than just "give them one because the other races have one." "Give zerg its only positional defense unit." I believe you mean in addition to the mighty broodlord, who not only deals damage over incredible distances but in enough numbers creates a wall of flesh that makes ground units crack their head against the wall trying to get past. "Gives a solution against MMM spam that does not involve the fragile and micro-intensive baneling. Even banelings lose their effectiveness as The MMM ball grows in size and its firepower strays into the realm of the riddiculous. Lurkers would punish all those 8-rax a-movers, forcing them to develop something resembling the intelligence a Z player needs to display when facing a tank line." There are solutions available to MMM spam, even some beyond the use of baneling. Infestor/ultra combo comes to mind quickly. Calling them stupid doesn't help your point.  "Banelings and Lurkers do not overlap. They complement. Late-game, you often see toss players facing MMM use both templars and colossi. The combined area damage is actually very usefull, not overlapping at all. I foresee a similar synergistic relation between banelings and lurkers. Banelings are great at destroying marines, and lurkers, which have a slight bonus to armored, would handle those pesky marauders." Storm and Thermal Lance damage go well together because they are not both instantaneous. The storms continue to weaken units until they reach the point where a single lance from the colossi ends their misery. Lurkers and banelings both cause instantaneous damage. If your banelings go in for the explode, they explode. They probably killed whatever they were next to, and whatever they weren't next to is still alive and fine. Lurker damage isn't complementary at this point, it's the same as any other AoE attack. Might as well just have built more banelings instead of lurkers or just all lurkers. "Bottom line is, considering the current public disenchantment with Z, drastic changes are needed. Lurkers are a universally loved classic and could provide a much-needed gameplay shake-up." Lurkers are definitely beloved, but gameplay shake-ups probably less so. It's best to make small tweaks and let the players find their grooves. On September 09 2010 00:04 TekKpriest wrote: A new unit (or better several units) with the expansion might be too late. We have to wait 16-18 months for HotS, which is simply too long. Sure not all gameplay possibilities are used yet, but i see Zerg pretty much "mined out" soon. and a lurker brought back wouldn't be SC:BW reloaded. Sure it has it similarities, but what of Terran and Toss? The Lurker pretty much would adress some of the current weaknesses the Zerg has, which in my opinion should be adressed pretty soon. You will look back at this and laugh 5 years down the road when people are still discovering new tricks for all 3 races. The game is played to counter players, not races. If a year later Terran is played completely differently, tactics you had now might be more or less useful on them. New tactics will be had to combat whatever new tactics they have. I don't think it'll ever stop evolving. | ||
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DARKHYDRA
United States303 Posts
Further more if u go sling/bling/muta u will be getting melee upgrades that make the ultralisk a good choice late game, but if we had lurkers at tier 3 it would benefit from early roach/hydra with range upgrades. So all in all its just more choices. Also zerg desperatly needs a ground unit that can outrange other ground units with the exceptions of siege tanks and colossus. Again just my 2cents. | ||
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SlowBlink
United States102 Posts
On September 09 2010 00:32 urashimakt wrote: There are solutions available to MMM spam, even some beyond the use of baneling. Infestor/ultra combo comes to mind quickly. Calling them stupid doesn't help your point. So your solution to a tier 1/1.5 terran army is a tier 2/3 zerg unit combo? Something about this doesn't seem to add up. I mean, BCs counter zerglings pretty well, but that doesn't mean that I should suggest BCs as a solution to a ling rush. The lurker is my favorite BW unit, and it makes me sad not seeing it in the newer game, but I'm not sure if there's really a place for it. Sure, zerg could stand to gain a unit or two (definitely needs an aoe attacker that isn't a 50/25 suicide unit that only does decent damage to 2 units) but lurkers just seem like they wouldn't do well in the new game. The usual lurker mix you'd see in BW involved lurker/ling to take out M&M+tanks, but now Marine/marauders can hold off the lings, while tanks can just snipe all the lings before they get there. From there the tanks could just sit back and wait for a scan/raven to reveal the lurkers. | ||
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Ayestes
United States106 Posts
The key would be forcing a unique reaction out of the opponent whether it be Ravens, Seige Tanks, Collosus, Observers, Scans, Ghosts, Mutas, etc. It would take a different composition to deal with Lurkers then it would Banelings, Infestors, or Ultralisks. There are enough units in the game now that an expansion adding Lurkers and some Tier 1.5 Unit would be the key units that Zerg could have in an expansion. It doesn't need to be a specific Anti-Light AoE or Anti-Armored AoE, it needs to be a Stealth Unit that is effective at contains, surprise, and drops. | ||
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
On September 08 2010 23:44 Dwomir wrote: Okay I'll be lazy because I do not want to read 11 pages of posts from other people wich can make me look BM. But I just want to make a statement that if the lurker comes back in SC2 then it would be OP, why?! you may ask, the reason is that Zerg now has Infesters, so what will happen if you mix Infesters with Lurkers: well a good microd zerg that get his hands on both Lurkers and Infestors will use Fungal Growth to immobilize the MM ball and then put down the Lurkers in range to slaughter the cute MM ball the terran charges in with (if he now has one). So thats why i dont want the Lurkers back, not to be unfair to the Zerg but if they come back then more balance work would be needed from Blizzard im afraid. At the same time i know you cant pick 2 techs thats gas heavy but only 1 then hey what about late game when you have 4 expos or more. There's already something similar in the game that requires less micro. It's called storm. Not to mention, wouldn't technically FG + baneling be even more "broken"? It's harder to focus them down since there are a lot more of them, plus they don't have to spend the time to burrow, they just roll right into the bio ball? | ||
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Sueco
Sweden283 Posts
Thank you for your feedback, One always appreciates when someone takes the time to pick your arguments apart instead of responding with half-baked single sentences. Shows you actually read and thought about what was said. You make a lot of good points and I'll try my best to elaborate on the discussion. "Give zerg its only actual stealth attacker." Giving something to a race simply because they don't have one yet doesn't mean balance, it means making all 3 races the same. It might be a very good decision, but you'd need more than just "give them one because the other races have one." Well, yes, X and Y have stealth attackers so Z should too, is not really an argument. But cloaking is an integral part of starcraft, and cloaking vs detection is a constant theme in the game. As it stands now, both T and P have powerful attack/harass units (banshees, DTs) that can end games if the enemy lacks detection. I think, for the sake of symmetry, that Z should also have that option. Then again, this is not such a strong argument, I won't contend that. "Give zerg its only positional defense unit." I believe you mean in addition to the mighty broodlord, who not only deals damage over incredible distances but in enough numbers creates a wall of flesh that makes ground units crack their head against the wall trying to get past. Ah broodlords. They are indeed awesome, and they sort of are a positional defense unit, but mostly because they are slow as sin and need to use cliffs to avoid getting sniped by simple marines, unless you've managed to get around 7 and the enemy has no anti-air at all. Regardless, as a tier 3.5 "capital" unit, they are in no position to be considered a standard part of Z arsenal. Not in the way lurkers would be. Storm and Thermal Lance damage go well together because they are not both instantaneous. The storms continue to weaken units until they reach the point where a single lance from the colossi ends their misery. Lurkers and banelings both cause instantaneous damage. If your banelings go in for the explode, they explode. They probably killed whatever they were next to, and whatever they weren't next to is still alive and fine. Lurker damage isn't complementary at this point, it's the same as any other AoE attack. Might as well just have built more banelings instead of lurkers or just all lurkers. This is true, but most of the time, particularly against a mixed army, a ball of Banelings will not obliterate every single unit, not unless you use a resource-inefficcient ammount of banelings. Particularly with good enemy micro, some marines will only take one explosion and survive. A lot of marauders and other units will too. This is where stray lurker shots deliver the cou-de-grace, and efficiently liquidate damaged remnants before medivacs invalidate your effort. I don't know about you but I see far more synergy than overlapping. | ||
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KennyD
United States30 Posts
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BuzzJuice
United States97 Posts
Lurkers are, as everyone said a much needed defense boost to the Zerg swarm, but I can't imagine Blizzard saying 'okay, we screwed up. We put in a badly designed unit in the game, and know we will replace it with something we already know is successful'. Even then, I am sorta skeptical if the Lurker is your new unit in HoTS. Would like to see newer units besides something I already know about (no offense to people who love the nostalgia factor). | ||
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
On September 11 2010 20:09 BuzzJuice wrote: Trying to add in Lurkers means that something has to be removed ELSE THE SACRED 14 units per RACE WILL BE VIOLATED. MUHAAHHAHAAH Lurkers are, as everyone said a much needed defense boost to the Zerg swarm, but I can't imagine Blizzard saying 'okay, we screwed up. We put in a badly designed unit in the game, and know we will replace it with something we already know is successful'. Even then, I am sorta skeptical if the Lurker is your new unit in HoTS. Would like to see newer units besides something I already know about (no offense to people who love the nostalgia factor). Zerg and Protoss have less units than Terran. Larvae don't count, Nydus Worms don't count either. | ||
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SC2Phoenix
Canada2814 Posts
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BuzzJuice
United States97 Posts
On September 11 2010 20:20 vica wrote: Zerg and Protoss have less units than Terran. Larvae don't count, Nydus Worms don't count either. Drone, Zergling, Queen, Overlord, Overseer, Baneling, Roach, Hydra, Muta, Corruptor, Infestor, Nydus Worm (exclude that), Ultralisk, Broodlord: 13 Else 14 if you count Nydus Worms. It sorta is a unit and I'm not counting larva. Oh, Terran and Protoss have same number of units. You're forgetting something or someone: SCV, Mule, Marine, Marauder, Reaper, Ghost, Hellion, Siege Tank, Thor, Viking, Medivac, Banshee, Raven, Battlecruiser - 14 Probe, Zealot, Stalker, Sentry, High Templar, Dark Templar, Archon, Warp Prism, Immortal, Collosi, Phoenix, Void Ray, Carrier, Mothership -14 | ||
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ZomgTossRush
United States1041 Posts
The main issue isn't cost/tech tree, its the fact that in sc1 terrans basically had an endless supply of scans with good hotkeying. 2 bases with full scans had 8 total scans. Meaning their was some sort of "balance" between zerg players trying to move lurkers around, and terran having to scan for safety. This was an exciting and VERY balanced aspect of the game. Try to add the deadly nature in ZvT means the T player basically couldn't use mules if he wanted to do any sort of attack before ravens came out. | ||
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skirmisheR
Sweden451 Posts
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
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skirmisheR
Sweden451 Posts
On September 11 2010 20:30 zomgtossrush wrote: I hope people realize that trying to bring back different units would break the game. The main issue isn't cost/tech tree, its the fact that in sc1 terrans basically had an endless supply of scans with good hotkeying. 2 bases with full scans had 8 total scans. Meaning their was some sort of "balance" between zerg players trying to move lurkers around, and terran having to scan for safety. This was an exciting and VERY balanced aspect of the game. Try to add the deadly nature in ZvT means the T player basically couldn't use mules if he wanted to do any sort of attack before ravens came out. Well, choosing between scans and mules would be really interesting just like zerg is choosing between spawning drones or army. Are you greedy or do you want to play safe? But seriously, today we have banelings, but you don't call that a problem? It's about the exact same thing as a lurker except for that banelings kill instantly and not slowly like lurkers (lurkers are therefore more forgiving) | ||
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Melt
Switzerland281 Posts
Also, i don't know what you are trying to show or to proof with this video (other than how Lurkers would be in SC2). Nevertheless a cute video, thank you  | ||
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OnFire
324 Posts
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