EPTsome of my opponents told me that banelings should work, but they dont, if the T's army is big enough. That marauder-marine-medivac (maybe a copule of tanks) flood seems to have no counter on the world, i've been trying everything, but everything fails. They obliterate the banelings befor thye could do the dmg, on lower levels baneling-traps worked, but on higher levels nobody falls for that anymore :s
Banelings in TvZ (balance change proposition) - Page 4
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
some of my opponents told me that banelings should work, but they dont, if the T's army is big enough. That marauder-marine-medivac (maybe a copule of tanks) flood seems to have no counter on the world, i've been trying everything, but everything fails. They obliterate the banelings befor thye could do the dmg, on lower levels baneling-traps worked, but on higher levels nobody falls for that anymore :s | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On March 19 2010 07:34 Ninja4ever. wrote: From my experience, speedling are faster than hellion. I spend my days microing hellion tvz as it is currently my standart bo and it's REALLY easy for zerg to exchange hellions with speedlings. I'm not a total newb as i'm top 5 platinum, so my micro isn't bad. And btw, no zerg will go straight to muta, they will make just enough roach for your hellion to not do anything, so your argument " but if muta you kill drone lolzor " isn't really valid. And marines won't hard counter mutas, he'll just avoid them and harasse you. Actually the real problem is if you open hellion/marine roaches will just demolish you. You also use up all your minerals so your only options vs roach would be ravens with HSM and by the time you get that zerg can expo the map, and because HSM costs so much you can't use it in one battle and have it ready for the next. I'd like to see an upgrade for total raven energy so you can save up for 2 hsms =/ I'm really at a loss with TvZ. | ||
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HyDRa
Sweden70 Posts
On March 19 2010 07:39 Bane_ wrote: Well it does makes sense since they're a big fat ball of acid so however they pop, stuff nearby is going to get burned. Perhaps they could make it so the bonus damage to light units isn't applied when they are shot as opposed to detonated though, so killing them in time would drop their damage from 35 to 15 on marines who are probably their number 1 target. By that logic, should tanks blowing up also make splash damage when they die? no... you can't look at it that way. | ||
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Defrag
Poland414 Posts
On March 19 2010 07:22 spinesheath wrote: Wow, this really hurts. I'm sorry, but a lot of units in SCBW and SC2 become much more useful if combined with other units or supplemened by upgrades that don't have to be and often are not of the same tech level. Prime example: MMMR Yep, speedlings against late game MMM. You know that for every +dmg on the marines the lings should have a +armor? Lings deal significant damage and you have tons of minerals that you can't spend on anything but lings. "getting to the rear" isn't done by running straight at the MMM ball and then around it. You can easily chose a safe path and come from the back with half your army. They are fast enough. Especially on creep. So, what did he do? Chances are that this build is not capable of finishing the game reliably and then we are back to the MMM ball again. Dude, you are giving a specific situations where your theory looks fine, other then that - not. Two units combined being more useful - completly fine with me, as its now with infestor baneling. But reading with comprehention please - I meant that slow banelings that need time to explode ( especially when standing in place to blow up ) would be USELESS without infestors, and thats not 'making unit work better' but 'work at all'. Example about hydralisks, yes, they are fast on creep, but take that siutation and put your theory about speedlings there, their surround: its not going to happen - if you are on creep ( so hydras got speed ) it means you are getting attacked, and before you 'choose another path' with speedlings, your whole army plus half base will be already destroyed. Last point, he did fast hellions variation with air harras, but I didint see it in that form yet, and his playstyle was terribly annoying. Probably best terran I've played against so far. Banelings ARE very good, but are you surprised they are overused? Not like 90% of terrans play MMM and thats it. It's same way it was with roaches against protoss, million whines about how overpowered roach rush is, people learned a fast immortal push and destroy it, so a lot of players switched to speedlings. Same is going to happen here, as soon as terran's mech get buffed and some people drop playing MMM every game, banelings are going to be used less frequently. But by that time, someone will probably find an effective way to deal with them. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7848 Posts
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Attica
United States277 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On March 19 2010 07:56 Defrag wrote: Dude, you are giving a specific situations where your theory looks fine, other then that - not. Two units combined being more useful - completly fine with me, as its now with infestor baneling. But reading with comprehention please - I meant that slow banelings that need time to explode ( especially when standing in place to blow up ) would be USELESS without infestors, and thats not 'making unit work better' but 'work at all'. Example about hydralisks, yes, they are fast on creep, but take that siutation and put your theory about speedlings there, their surround: its not going to happen - if you are on creep ( so hydras got speed ) it means you are getting attacked, and before you 'choose another path' with speedlings, your whole army plus half base will be already destroyed. Last point, he did fast hellions variation with air harras, but I didint see it in that form yet, and his playstyle was terribly annoying. Probably best terran I've played against so far. Banelings ARE very good, but are you surprised they are overused? Not like 90% of terrans play MMM and thats it. It's same way it was with roaches against protoss, million whines about how overpowered roach rush is, people learned a fast immortal push and destroy it, so a lot of players switched to speedlings. Same is going to happen here, as soon as terran's mech get buffed and some people drop playing MMM every game, banelings are going to be used less frequently. But by that time, someone will probably find an effective way to deal with them. Banelings won't be useless that way. You are exaggerating this horribly. The delay between starting to explode and dealing damage can be tweaked. It's not like I said "make it 10 seconds". It could be just enough to get a few marines out of the splash radius, but not all. And spling/bling is easily strong enough to get banelings into positions where you CAN'T evade easily anymore. Good zergs cover the whole map in creep. Maps are currently very small in SC2. Good zergs don't attack into the base of a terran unless they have a huge advantage. So it is very likely that most important battles happen (partly) on creep. I know from my own experience that speedling surrounds are extremely easy to pull off, especially if you got the map covered in creep and thus have insanely fast zerglings and a ton of scouting information. A terran army isn't nearly fast enough to destroy destroy anything before my surround is set up. Air is a very common followup to hellions actually. But you can deal with the hellions just fine and still get your hydras up in time. It's not like that terran build is completely useless, but it surely doesn't outright win the game. It's very similar to vult -> wraith builds in tvz. Tons of harrass but in the end the terran is not as far ahead as it seems during the harrass. In the end such a build is either all-in or only tries to get enough damage done to be able to expand and switch to MMM. | ||
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Bane_
United Kingdom494 Posts
On March 19 2010 07:51 HyDRa wrote: By that logic, should tanks blowing up also make splash damage when they die? no... you can't look at it that way. What a fine idea, maybe they should do so?  | ||
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theon.vbn
United States5 Posts
Most people that are talking cost-effectiveness and late game don't seem to realize that the game never gets to late game because Terran can't expand, and because zerg has more bases he can afford to be less cost effective... it's the same idea as 1 million dollars to Bill Gates. I might just rush banshees or do a 4hellion rush and pray for the best. I don't know how else to safely expand and it is very frustrating. | ||
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G3nXsiS
United States656 Posts
Now,banelings are a great unit and I really don't wanna see them nerfed and be relegated to only killing buildings but with the muta combination its almost impossible to stop the muta-baneling-zergling strat into broodlords. Right now my proposition is to buff the helion. Their attack rate needs to be much much faster considering they need to be stationery to fire. | ||
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Sosseres
Sweden41 Posts
On March 19 2010 18:53 G3nXsiS wrote: Right now my proposition is to buff the helion. Their attack rate needs to be much much faster considering they need to be stationery to fire. As I understand that it is an incorrect statement. Helions animation is long, you can animation cancel it and still get damage done. If you don't understand what I mean play some DotA with a ranged unit chasing another hero, you do not wait until the attack hits, only until it is launched. | ||
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G3nXsiS
United States656 Posts
On March 19 2010 19:16 Sosseres wrote: As I understand that it is an incorrect statement. Helions animation is long, you can animation cancel it and still get damage done. If you don't understand what I mean play some DotA with a ranged unit chasing another hero, you do not wait until the attack hits, only until it is launched. Ah! that is something I didn't think about considering I don't really use helions much. Perhaps decreasing their animation time would go hand in hand with increasing the attack speed as its pretty hard to micro the helions during the battle. But yeah I totally get what you mean. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On March 19 2010 07:34 Ninja4ever. wrote: From my experience, speedling are faster than hellion. I spend my days microing hellion tvz as it is currently my standart bo and it's REALLY easy for zerg to exchange hellions with speedlings. I'm not a total newb as i'm top 5 platinum, so my micro isn't bad. And btw, no zerg will go straight to muta, they will make just enough roach for your hellion to not do anything, so your argument " but if muta you kill drone lolzor " isn't really valid. And marines won't hard counter mutas, he'll just avoid them and harasse you. Lings aren't really good against large # of hellions . 8 Hellions can kill a shit ton of lings with the upgrade for light damage and micro even 4 or 6 hellions are hard to stop with lings even with speed upgrade . | ||
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diehilde
Germany1596 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On March 19 2010 19:16 Sosseres wrote: As I understand that it is an incorrect statement. Helions animation is long, you can animation cancel it and still get damage done. If you don't understand what I mean play some DotA with a ranged unit chasing another hero, you do not wait until the attack hits, only until it is launched. DotA players giving advice, what has the world come to  | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
On March 19 2010 21:39 diehilde wrote: here is the deal - former top sc1 players get raped by Dimaga over and over again. Since they cant accept someone is just plain better than them, they call imbalance. Good lord ive had more than my fair share of formerly good sc1 players crying about imbalance like a lil baby after they lost to me just because im not a known sc1 player and they feel they have to beat me or else it must be imbalance. (Not saying that about strelok though, he is as mannered as the other ukranians). It's kinda strange that every zerg player is better than every terran player though. Obviously DIMAGA is a skilled player but at this point its pretty much Z>T | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On March 19 2010 07:39 Bane_ wrote: Well it does makes sense since they're a big fat ball of acid so however they pop, stuff nearby is going to get burned. Perhaps they could make it so the bonus damage to light units isn't applied when they are shot as opposed to detonated though, so killing them in time would drop their damage from 35 to 15 on marines who are probably their number 1 target. when baneling kills themself they stretch all their muscles pushing the acid from all sides until the acid tube cant take it and then it explodes but when the baneling dies and u shoot hole in the acid tank it wont fly everywhere, its just gonna leak down in the ground it makes no sense at all that it deals dmg upon death | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On March 19 2010 21:39 diehilde wrote: here is the deal - former top sc1 players get raped by Dimaga over and over again. Since they cant accept someone is just plain better than them, they call imbalance. Good lord ive had more than my fair share of formerly good sc1 players crying about imbalance like a lil baby after they lost to me just because im not a known sc1 player and they feel they have to beat me or else it must be imbalance. (Not saying that about strelok though, he is as mannered as the other ukranians). Uh, what? DeMuslim is a former SC1 player? A bunch of Terran and Toss players both say Zerg has significant advantages over both races. They have macro advantages AND hardcounters in this game. In SC1, Zerg at best had "soft" counters and big macro advantages, so it was actually feasible to win with 2 bases vs a 3 base Z in SC1. Hell, you could even do 3 base vs 5 base Z and end up winning in SC1 as either Terran or Toss. If you watch every TvZ replay, the Terran is in best case scenario pinned to his expansion for most of the game. It is virtually impossible for him to obain a 2nd expansion against any decent Z player, because Z has Baneling/Speedling/Muta combo to keep him inside his base with contain, or Roach/Hydra/Baneling ambushes to threaten the T player (can't win without tanks and infantry upgrades, both which take heavy amounts of gas). Also on top of this, the current map pool really sucks towards Terran. Desert Oasis, Blistering Sands, and Scrap Yard all HEAVILY favor Z. In fact, almost none of these maps favor a Terran player at the moment (except maybe Kulas Ravine where you might be able to get away with an early 3rd expansion, basically the only map Terran could feasibly get his 2nd expo on). And it sure as hell isn't because we haven't tried everything. I've watched Terran players do things ranging from FEing, to Mech, to mass early Helions into Air, some tried to fast siege with mass Marines early, etc. and the majority of them have lost. I've tried 1 rax FE, single base 3 rax all in, tried to do mid game timing attacks after establishing expo, etc. and it's simply ridiculous how the second I walk outside my base, I can lose over half of my army in a second (yet Zerg players in the HSM thread are complaining about a skill I should realistically never get to). | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On March 19 2010 20:53 raga4ka wrote: Lings aren't really good against large # of hellions . 8 Hellions can kill a shit ton of lings with the upgrade for light damage and micro even 4 or 6 hellions are hard to stop with lings even with speed upgrade . Mass speed lings vs 4 Helions = win for Z. | ||
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Stimmmed
United States39 Posts
Another idea is perhaps a speed upgrade or armor upgrade for hellions. The real issue has been stated several times in this thread although people seem to be going on about "oh yeah dont expect it to be balanced" and "blah blah autowin." And that issue is with out ample drone harass early, the zerg gains a substantial economic lead which can be used to contain the terran (with baneling ball) in order to further the economic advantage and ultimately out produce him with any number of options. So as a recap. Currently terran needs early drone harass, ie hellion/banshee rush. If this fails, the game is all but over against a skilled zerg. The issue isnt whether the baneling/ling ball is cost effective at the time of purchase, but rather that the initial investment made by the zerg contains the terran in that if the terran pushes out, he is very likely to autolose and if he doesnt push out, the zerg takes a quick 3rd and outproduces the terran. btw: does anyone know how to beat muta/baneling/ling/ultra? it seems impossible to beat as terran. | ||
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