EPTBanelings in TvZ (balance change proposition) - Page 11
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Tor
Canada231 Posts
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wintergt
Belgium1335 Posts
On March 21 2010 06:06 MorroW wrote: and then the day comes when zergs figure out that have to flank and/or target fire the marines with baneling So it becomes a matter of positioning and micro, which is what people want right. | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
Have you people actually tried Vikings after the patch? 9 range and 20 damage? They outrange even Corruptors and do twice as much damage as Corruptors do back to them o.0 Maybe they can be a good follow up after Hellion Marauder? | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On March 22 2010 16:10 wintergt wrote: So it becomes a matter of positioning and micro, which is what people want right. no what im saying is if both are 0 micro z win and if both r 100% micro z win on top of it terrans micro is 10 times harder, good luck targeting 15 banelings while 20 lings r ripping u apart On March 22 2010 21:05 beetlelisk wrote: Since it doesn't hurt to ask: Have you people actually tried Vikings after the patch? 9 range and 20 damage? They outrange even Corruptors and do twice as much damage as Corruptors do back to them o.0 Maybe they can be a good follow up after Hellion Marauder? maruder hellion > ling baneling but hydra and infestors > maruder hellion quite badly and to be honest with u, once z get 3base with a golden base and start pure hydra infester then there is no counter in the game against it it simply just takes so much for a t to move out that z always gets 3base so damn fast and the economy just runs him over. hellion doesnt counter hydra at all when infesters r in the game so many plays ive seen zerg sits on like 800 min the midgame while terran is down at 0 all the time and z still comes on top of the battle every time. and im talking about the top gamers replays t.t why hasnt blizzard made a new patch yet | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On March 22 2010 21:07 MorroW wrote: and to be honest with u, once z get 3base with a golden base and start pure hydra infester then there is no counter in the game against it A: Select Raven B: Launch HSM C: Repeat D: Profit! | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
What we want is an exicting and balanced matchup. Banelings are actually quite an exicitng unit. The first Reaver-style moment in SC2 came yesterday when Dimaga barelled banelings up into the terran base and they split up heading for the SCV line and then BOOM as about 8 scvs died instantly. That's exactly what we want to see in SC2, it was exciting. If ZvT is indeed imbalanced at the moment (which having played Z and T extensively I think it might be), I'd rather other changes are made. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On March 22 2010 21:20 PredY wrote: once Z goes mass hydra/infestor, tanks are your friend morrow (or HSM as well but it's such a high tech) yes it all sounds good in theory in theory it sounds like there is a counter for everything but the harsh truth is no, hydra + infestor rolls over tanks along with anything because he sits at twice ur econ all the game ive never seen a single game where a top player like demuslim or so won a tvz without abusing cliffs or the zerg being overall stupid in unit choices. ive never seen a straight forward tvz where terran just simply wins the battle and comes on top, never | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
edit. also getting tank upgrades is easy now since you need armory anyways | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
I've checked few things yesterday and I've learned that salvaging Bunkers always gives back 100 minerals - regardless of how badly damaged they are! Containing zerg should be that much easier? edit: except you probably want to place them behind you forces as something to retreat to when you hit & run as opposed to placing them in front and letting Roaches focus fire them  edit2: also by the time zerg has Worms you may have any flying units to scout tech and retreat in time to avoid surround? | ||
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ROOTslush
Canada170 Posts
On March 21 2010 06:31 Zoler wrote: *facepalm* seriously why is random people with 50 posts arguing against good players I didn't know that the number of posts makes u good or bad. Thanks for the tips ! i must be the worst player here i guess. | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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MeditationError
Australia60 Posts
On March 25 2010 06:48 Kare wrote: Banelings vs terran is free win, simple as that Lol. play as zerg for a bit. You'll be surprised how hard it is to get your money's worth out of those little mongrels. If terran is the underdog here (and there isn't consensus), then buff something other than bioball. If terran goes bioball every single game, I should be able to punish them for being so predictable, and banelings are that punishment. Bioballs are big groups of cheap/weak units. The natural counter is aoe. For zerg aoe means banelings, fungal growth, and ultralisks. These three things *should* pwn a bioball. Furthermore, you can't roach against marauders, so if banelings do get nerfed so as not to beat the bioball, the only t1 options zerg has left for m&m is zerglings or fast-lair. Is that really the game you want to play? Buff terran mech, and aim for new-terran-strat > banelings > bioball > roaches > new-terran-strat. Tweak tanks or ghosts or hellions (or even banshees, ravens or vikings) to be more effective against banelings, but leave marines, marauders and banelings the hell alone. Maybe hellions vs banelings needs to be less extreme somehow. "Nerf banelings" = bioball every match, and bioball is dull dull dull. | ||
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QibingZero
2611 Posts
Deep six was all over that thread as well, unsurprisingly. | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9107 Posts
I consider my TvZ to be better than my TvP and I'm #1 ranked in my plat division so I'd like to play these gosu zergs so I can see what all the noob zergs I'm playing are doing wrong. Banelings can be annoying when they just liquifey you're whole mm army in early or early/mid-game but the people I've been playing haven't been using them as a staple in their mid-late game armies so I haven't really played against what Strelok is describing. | ||
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MeditationError
Australia60 Posts
On March 25 2010 09:32 QibingZero wrote: An interesting note is that in the BW forum thread about which styles are most fun to watch, SK Terran was on most lists as #1. Someone commented 'but it's played all the time'. I guess that goes to show you how fun terran bio play really is. I don't think most people would agree with you that 'bioball is dull', nor would they agree with the reasoning that banelings shouldn't be nerfed because 'dull' bio will be the prevalent style of play. Deep six was all over that thread as well, unsurprisingly. I'm not saying that bio "will be" the prevalent style of play, I'm say that it is the prevalent style of play right now, and if banelings counter that style of play so hard that terran needs help there are 2 options: 1) nerf banelings -> it remains prevalent. 2) establish a counter to banelings from some other style of play -> terrans have more options. I like bio - it's fast, it's dynamic, you can get some very entertaining marauder micro, especially with stim. But every game? Surely no-one is seriously arguing they'd like to see terran play the same strat every game against zerg? Most games, CowGoMoo just flys his factories around like expensive overlords. I really didn't think I would be in the minority thinking that that's wrong. Anyway, the main point I wanted to make is: Even if banelings were overpowered, nerfing them is not automatically the right solution. | ||
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Black Octopi
187 Posts
Marine Marauder get owened by Hydralisk/Benalings/Roaches? Gosh, god forbid the unit meant to counter Light/Bio/T1 actually does its job. You are all assuming we live in SC:BW land where you are just suppose to stomp on zerg with marines and medics, even though everything in the Zerg arsenal is saying "GO DIE!" to that. You are also assuming Viking is anti-everything-air when its actually anti-armored air (do Mutalisk look armored to everyone here?). But wait assumptions get better... The Thor is probably the strongest anti-air unit vs Light (ie. Mutalisk, Banshee, Pheonix). They two shot them unless zerg gets ridiculous amounts of armor before you get any Attack upgrades. But lets all just ingnore that and think like this: "Thor is big and looks like a goliath, so obviously Thor's anti-air who does bonus damage vs light must be only useful against Battlecruisers and Carriers, right?" Sarcasm aside, they are probably the worst targets for the Thor in the entire game! Another assumtion is that just because you can't mass a full control of them (such as you can with marines) they are suddenly completly useless to your army composition, or even better one: "you need a lot of them to make a difference". Thor 1-shots Hydraliscs and you just need +1 Attack to undermine anything the zerg has in upgrades. Doesn't sound impressive? thats equivalent to 15 marines focusing fire. Try thinking what only shooting twice compared to 15 times means when you add armor/attack upgrades in the mix. Thor also has 400hp. That means it takes 29 benalings to take it down (at +0 upgrade difference). Just get 2 or 3 and put them in front of your army as a wall and you already scew up zerglings, benalings and pretty much everything melee; I don't think I even need to mention how Ultralisk would have a hard time getting though as well. But hey going (anti-light) mech against zerg (who's almost entirely light T1/T2) is just crazy talk! On the topic of zergling/benalings, you also have Reapers who two shot Zerglings and Benalings almost always; zerg needs to keep Attack/Armor difference at +2 in his favor to just get it down to 3-shots to kill. Buut NOO! lets use Marines who's Attack upgrades make almost zero difference. At +0 Marines take 5 hits to kill benaling. Get this, you need +2 Attack/Defense difference in your favor you have gain 4 hits to kill with marines (+3 is still 4). If we take armor advantage for Zerg, at +1 more armor then your attack it takes 6 hits, at +2 it takes 8 hits and at +3 it takes hole 10! Lets also pretend we can only put marines into bunkers to defend against a benaling rush. Translation: marines kill benalings slow in anything but huge numbers, 2-3 benalings do massive damage the larger the blob is, so its basically lose-lose situation if you get a lot of marines or few marines. I also love the: Reaper are weaker then Marines. Even though Reapers have 50hp compared to normal Marines which have 45hp and also do close to 3 times the damage against light that marines do (at +0 upgrades). But what does that matter, we all saw countless times how the 1 or 2 Reapers sent to harass were dieing to Marine, Marauders; if 1 Reaper can't take out a entire control of units that's just fail right! /sarcasm end As for tanks. Lets just say they are so situational you should treat them with the same caution as with planing to use a nuke in SC:BW. ps. don't assume zerg has free detection like in SC:BW. Nukes, cloak etc are all viable. | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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Mente
United States288 Posts
On March 19 2010 03:38 3D.Strelok wrote: 80% of top-zergs in european platinum league don't do muta + banelings prefering doing hydra+roach+baneling Tanks are very slow, you can defend with them but never attack. The problem is not in defending. Problem is in attacking. Watch Dimaga vs Morrow game from Zotac. Morrow went mass tanking and 3-d base. Dimaga just switched to ultralisks. Morrow could do nothing. Ultralisk don't give a shit about HSM. And i don't fight for my race. This is BETA version and i make a proposition to make it better balanced. Do you have link to that game? It's not up on day's stream. At least not in specific segments. | ||
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