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I made a topick on blizzard:
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23767560787&sid=5010
But since it seems to me noone comes there, i will also start discussion thread here. Please don't agree with me cause you're terran or disagree cause you're zerg. Just arguments. If such combination helps - then why, e.t.c. Thanks in advance.
If someone is too lazy to open blizzard site - i put my full post in spoilers.
+ Show Spoiler +First of all i want to mention that all said below is spoken about banelings with upgrade on speed.
Every unit in starcraft has it's counter. If we started to talk about TvZ - i will give you TvZ example. Roaches are good against rines. Marauders are good against roaches. Hydra is good against marauders. Rines are good against hydra. When there is a large number of hydra and roach terrans surely need medivacs and upgrades. When there are very many medivacs and M+M, zerg needs infestors, brood lords or ultralisks. Everything depends on your skill, everything is balanced. I can make same cycle on mechanical terran or the terran which starts with air. Doesn't matter a lot. The main idea i wanted to show is that EVERY UNIT HAS IT'S COUNTER.
Now let's talk about speed banelings. The units they counter. The units which counter them. In fact the unit they counter best are rines. The power of rines is in their number, banelings don't care about number of units they strike in. Terran has to use rines in TvZ, because rines are: 1) antiair. 2) the best ground unit against big amount of hydra. 3) cheap and that's why the only way of terran not to get outmassed by zerg. So we need to have rines in our army. Which units can we add to it to deal with banelings? There are 3 variants of such addons. :
1) Marauders as shield. Banelings strike in marauders, they die but rines still alive and kill the rest of army. Why doesn't it work? Zerg never attacks from 1 way. He will attack from several ways with banelings in each army. It's impossible to have marauders everywhere. So your rines will die anyways and marauders won't work as shield. I don't know how you can change marauders so they become good counter to banelings and don't become counters to other units. So no propositions here.
2) Hellions. Hellions are good against lings. Probably they are good against banelings? Yes they are, but only if banelings don't have speed. Why so? Main reason is that in fact hellions are really good only against lings without speed. If lings do have speed it's very hard to kill those masses. So hellions are also bad against speed banelings. If you don't believe me - try to micro 1 baneling with hellion. Is it possible to change hellion in such a way to counter banelings and not to counter units in other matchups? Yes, it's possible, because marauders are highly used in all 3 terran matchups and hellions are used very rarely in tvp and never used in tvt. There are 2 ways to make hellions counter banelings: adding hellions speed upgrade or/and giving them bigger range upgrade. In first way - hellions will manage at least to outrun banelings. In second way - it will be at least possible to strike banelings before they explore in your entire M+M army.
3) Raven's ability of missiles. They make damage to many units so they can kill zerg masses as banelings kill you. You can even say that it's terran's banelings. What is the problem? The problem is that it is very hard to give good amount of ravens with missiles. They "eat" a lot of gaz, gain energy very slow and the shot demands a lot of energy. To start making ravens you will need: 2 starports with addons, fusion core, upgrades on missiles and upgrade on +25 energy. Upgrade on duration of missiles is also highly needed. All that you will need to make from 2 bases and only 4 gazes because zerg won't give you 3-d base with his banelings and army. Otherwise zerg will work from 3-4 bases. I tested 1 expo into slow ravens and can say - when you get 4 ravens with 1 missle each - game is already lost because zerg is too far ahead in economy and limit. So this upgrade CAN be a counter but due to it's expensibility and slowness it's not a counter in any ways. So the question - can we change missiles in such a way - not to touch other matchups, only tvz. Yes we can. In TvT ravens are never used because they eat a lot of gaz and are simply useless. In TvP terran sometimes does 1 raven, but he never does many of them, because he needs gaz on ghosts. Also protoss has amazing possibilty to feedback raven, so they will 100% not change balance in tvp. So how can we change ravens to make them more powerfull against zerg? There is only 1 way - make their building faster and cheaper, especially on gaz. More power or higher speed of misciles won't help - because as i said before - zerg will be way ahead economically and in units before you get at least 4 ravens with upgade.
There is also a possibilty to reduce banelings. But honestly i know nothing about balance in ZvP, so reducing banellings power can probably be an end to zerg in ZvP....
I hope you will read my proposition carefully and of course i am open for discussions.
Eugin "mouz.Strelok" Oparyshev
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Tbh replace banelings with lurker, I also dont like them.
Banelings are a one trick pony. Yet I find it funny when T cries when a couple banelings actually manage into his MMM ball which he most likely a-moved. Ive had several occassions were I managed waves of units from 4 sides at the same time, yet the couple tanks and MMM ball survived the slaughter (as there wasnt any actually). I honestly wouldnt see banelings as OP, sure they may be effective against rines when rines stand still or when T doesnt scan/detect and T walks with his army clumped over a burrowed group of banes or when Z simply outmacroed the T and got too many, but afaik they arent a guaranteed win. The other side however about mass banelings is that when they actually kill some rines, they also die. This basically means that both teams are effectively losing army. In the open and such, you can easily micro your army away from the banelings and manage to kill them, heck with a couple tanks chances are you dont even need to do that.
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On March 19 2010 02:56 Koffiegast wrote:
Tbh replace banelings with lurker, I also dont like them.
Banelings are a one trick pony. Yet I find it funny when T cries when a couple banelings actually manage into his MMM ball which he most likely a-moved. Ive had several occassions were I managed waves of units from 4 sides at the same time, yet the couple tanks and MMM ball survived the slaughter (as there wasnt any actually). I honestly wouldnt see banelings as OP, sure they may be effective against rines when rines stand still or when T doesnt scan/detect and T walks with his army clumped over a burrowed group of banes or when Z simply outmacroed the T and got too many, but afaik they arent a guaranteed win. The other side however about mass banelings is that when they actually kill some rines, they also die. This basically means that both teams are effectively losing army. In the open and such, you can easily micro your army away from the banelings and manage to kill them, heck with a couple tanks chances are you dont even need to do that.
Don't make me laugh, who the hell goes Banelings and doesn't go Mutas. Once you kill off the majority of Marines with your Ling/Banelings you swoop in with your Mutas and go LOL all over the Terran army who has no anti-air anymore.
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Tanks counter them pretty well, at least by players that bother to target and attack moving banelings.
I dont get why so small number of Terran players use tanks at all, 4-5 tanks placed properly can really bring a hell on zerg's army ( if we are talking about speedling/baneling/hydralisk cluster ), and with proper use of stimpack on marines tanks can sometimes negate banelings completetly.
Using hellions late in game seems like a mistake to me, they feel really terrible in late game against zerg.
because zerg won't give you 3-d base with his banelings and army.
I dont agree, I've played with players that can secure as many bases as avarage zerg player. Bunkers are not expensive, they eat dmg pretty well, and if they are no longer needed - you can sell them again. Also, with tanks behind (2-3 is often enough, 4-5 juts destroys zerg ;p ) rushing in against terran without creep providing additional baneling speed, it's a suicide.
Also, most ( all actually I think? ) maps have islands and closed expand spots, if you can secure a nat expo then just go for walled expansion latera and voila ;o
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HSM (Raven's missle) destroys any zerg army, regardless what zerg builds. There is no EMP and feedback. Why don't you mention that? So basically, if banelings are nerfed that would mean you will survive until Ravens which is auto win for terran.
It is very important to keep game balanced at any point (early-mid-late). I agree banelings own terran in early game, but still terran can do something about it. Late game is like 90% terran win since HSM kills anything I repeat anything in zerg army.
Good suggestion would be nerf baneling and HSM as well.
Don't fight for your race only. If you want this game to be a good at e-sports fight for overall balance. You are a good progamer. Но тянуть одеяло на себя не красиво, умей держать репутацию (sorry for russian).
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On March 19 2010 03:10 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 02:56 Koffiegast wrote:
Tbh replace banelings with lurker, I also dont like them.
Banelings are a one trick pony. Yet I find it funny when T cries when a couple banelings actually manage into his MMM ball which he most likely a-moved. Ive had several occassions were I managed waves of units from 4 sides at the same time, yet the couple tanks and MMM ball survived the slaughter (as there wasnt any actually). I honestly wouldnt see banelings as OP, sure they may be effective against rines when rines stand still or when T doesnt scan/detect and T walks with his army clumped over a burrowed group of banes or when Z simply outmacroed the T and got too many, but afaik they arent a guaranteed win. The other side however about mass banelings is that when they actually kill some rines, they also die. This basically means that both teams are effectively losing army. In the open and such, you can easily micro your army away from the banelings and manage to kill them, heck with a couple tanks chances are you dont even need to do that. Don't make me laugh, who the hell goes Banelings and doesn't go Mutas. Once you kill off the majority of Marines with your Ling/Banelings you swoop in with your Mutas and go LOL all over the Terran army who has no anti-air anymore.
I dont, and I think a lot of other zerg players dont as well.
The reason is simple, building enough of mutalisks to use them as your main strike force needs A TON of gas ( 3 bases+ really ) and building banelings isnt cheap in gas well. But let's skip that and say zerg have 3 bases, and goes mass mutalisk/baneling. Banelings are pretty much useless in that case without other meat shield on the ground that could absorb tanks dmg, since they wont even reach the target, especially with new AI of tanks ( no overkills ).
I prefer speedling/baneling with a back-up of hydras with infestors.
Banelings ARE strong if used properly, but hey - you could say it's pretty ridiculous as well that most of terrans play MMM against anything and still manage to win a 45 minute long games with tier1 starting unit.
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On March 19 2010 03:15 Defrag wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 03:10 superstartran wrote:On March 19 2010 02:56 Koffiegast wrote:
Tbh replace banelings with lurker, I also dont like them.
Banelings are a one trick pony. Yet I find it funny when T cries when a couple banelings actually manage into his MMM ball which he most likely a-moved. Ive had several occassions were I managed waves of units from 4 sides at the same time, yet the couple tanks and MMM ball survived the slaughter (as there wasnt any actually). I honestly wouldnt see banelings as OP, sure they may be effective against rines when rines stand still or when T doesnt scan/detect and T walks with his army clumped over a burrowed group of banes or when Z simply outmacroed the T and got too many, but afaik they arent a guaranteed win. The other side however about mass banelings is that when they actually kill some rines, they also die. This basically means that both teams are effectively losing army. In the open and such, you can easily micro your army away from the banelings and manage to kill them, heck with a couple tanks chances are you dont even need to do that. Don't make me laugh, who the hell goes Banelings and doesn't go Mutas. Once you kill off the majority of Marines with your Ling/Banelings you swoop in with your Mutas and go LOL all over the Terran army who has no anti-air anymore. I dont, and I think a lot of other zerg players dont as well. The reason is simple, building enough of mutalisks to use them as your main strike force needs A TON of gas ( 3 bases+ really ) and building banelings isnt cheap in gas well. But let's skip that and say zerg have 3 bases, and goes mass mutalisk/baneling. Banelings are pretty much useless in that case without other meat shield on the ground that could absorb tanks dmg, since they wont even reach the target, especially with new AI of tanks ( no overkills ). Banelings ARE strong if used properly, but hey - you could say it's pretty ridiculous as well that most of terrans play MMM against anything and still manage to win a 45 minute long games with tier1 starting unit.
Don't give me that crap, have you watched any replays lately? Every Z player goes Ling/Baneling contain, into 2 expos with Mass Muta/Baneling/Ling push before Terran gets to his late game units. It's nearly unstoppable and almost retarded. If you push out the Z has so many ways to see you coming, and can ambush you from alot of directions in this game (such as the grass points, from Xel Naga towers, burrow, etc.)
Banelings can be used bad, but it's really hard to do so when you have vision of the whole map and map control. The Terran at most is sitting on his natural (best case scenario) and is probably wondering how the hell is he going to push out. Banelings are a BIG reason why this match-up is so stupid at the moment; one good use of Banelings means GG Terran.
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United States7166 Posts
Yeah, the best would be to replace banelings with lurkers (not at hive but at lair, perhaps tier 2.5 from research @ Hydra den).
It would not only make it more balanced, but much more fun and interesting for both players to use. i believe lurkers need to return to bring back a huge part to the game which is good unit positioning by both players and map control. the micro is much more interesting and fun, and provides a much better dynamic to the game by trying to establish and hold key map positions, and makes terrain more significant. The unit is just what zerg needs to make all 3 of its matchups much more interesting, and would give back zerg the iconic unit that really defines their play in Brood War. People have been complaining, myself included, about the lack of diversity and fun for Zerg in SC2, this is what they've been needing.
For some reason Blizzard seems concerned about making invisible attacking units at Tier 2 tech, well Lurkers cannot move while invisible and so it becomes very difficult to attack with them, plus Detection is considerably easier/faster to get in SC2 than it is in BW, and it wasn't a problem there either.
I know they removed the lurker because it wasn't being used at its previous Hive requirement, well bring it back to Lair, remove or rework Banelings (perhaps the + Show Spoiler [Baneling Bombs idea?] +On March 16 2010 09:27 Ziel wrote:
Baneling Bomb: Costs 25 energy. Requires research first at Infestation Pit and requires Hive to unlock. Allows the Infester to load up to four Banelings inside it. Targets over 8 range at a location and lobs a Baneling to the location, exploding on the spot and dealing +20 additional damage (added onto base damage. Bonus and building damage are discounted) but also does friendly damage. Banelings can't be shot down. I thought it could be novel to have a direct unit-to-unit usage, something like the HT/DT Archon morph, plus it helps to keep Banelings useful late game against heavy hitters.
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On March 19 2010 03:18 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 03:15 Defrag wrote:On March 19 2010 03:10 superstartran wrote:On March 19 2010 02:56 Koffiegast wrote:
Tbh replace banelings with lurker, I also dont like them.
Banelings are a one trick pony. Yet I find it funny when T cries when a couple banelings actually manage into his MMM ball which he most likely a-moved. Ive had several occassions were I managed waves of units from 4 sides at the same time, yet the couple tanks and MMM ball survived the slaughter (as there wasnt any actually). I honestly wouldnt see banelings as OP, sure they may be effective against rines when rines stand still or when T doesnt scan/detect and T walks with his army clumped over a burrowed group of banes or when Z simply outmacroed the T and got too many, but afaik they arent a guaranteed win. The other side however about mass banelings is that when they actually kill some rines, they also die. This basically means that both teams are effectively losing army. In the open and such, you can easily micro your army away from the banelings and manage to kill them, heck with a couple tanks chances are you dont even need to do that. Don't make me laugh, who the hell goes Banelings and doesn't go Mutas. Once you kill off the majority of Marines with your Ling/Banelings you swoop in with your Mutas and go LOL all over the Terran army who has no anti-air anymore. I dont, and I think a lot of other zerg players dont as well. The reason is simple, building enough of mutalisks to use them as your main strike force needs A TON of gas ( 3 bases+ really ) and building banelings isnt cheap in gas well. But let's skip that and say zerg have 3 bases, and goes mass mutalisk/baneling. Banelings are pretty much useless in that case without other meat shield on the ground that could absorb tanks dmg, since they wont even reach the target, especially with new AI of tanks ( no overkills ). Banelings ARE strong if used properly, but hey - you could say it's pretty ridiculous as well that most of terrans play MMM against anything and still manage to win a 45 minute long games with tier1 starting unit. Don't give me that crap, have you watched any replays lately? Every Z player goes Ling/Baneling contain, into 2 expos with Mass Muta/Baneling/Ling push before Terran gets to his late game units. It's nearly unstoppable and almost retarded. If you push out the Z has so many ways to see you coming, and can ambush you from alot of directions in this game (such as the grass points, from Xel Naga towers, burrow, etc.) Banelings can be used bad, but it's really hard to do so when you have vision of the whole map and map control. The Terran at most is sitting on his natural (best case scenario) and is probably wondering how the hell is he going to push out. Banelings are a BIG reason why this match-up is so stupid at the moment; one good use of Banelings means GG Terran.
Do you agree that in TvZ banelings are overpowered in early-mid game and HSM is overpowered in late game? If you don't please explain why. I'm not on T or Z side, just say neutral. I want this game to be perfectly balanced and to become the best e-sports game. To do so every matchup should balanced at any stage of the game.
I think your problem is that you see the game only from terran's point of view (Basically not only you)
Those who are zergs please try to be in terrans place.
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On March 19 2010 03:10 superstartran wrote:
Don't make me laugh, who the hell goes Banelings and doesn't go Mutas. Once you kill off the majority of Marines with your Ling/Banelings you swoop in with your Mutas and go LOL all over the Terran army who has no anti-air anymore.
80% of top-zergs in european platinum league don't do muta + banelings prefering doing hydra+roach+baneling
On March 19 2010 03:11 Defrag wrote:
Tanks counter them pretty well, at least by players that bother to target and attack moving banelings.
Tanks are very slow, you can defend with them but never attack.
I dont agree, I've played with players that can secure as many bases as avarage zerg player. Bunkers are not expensive, they eat dmg pretty well, and if they are no longer needed - you can sell them again.
The problem is not in defending. Problem is in attacking. Watch Dimaga vs Morrow game from Zotac. Morrow went mass tanking and 3-d base. Dimaga just switched to ultralisks. Morrow could do nothing.
On March 19 2010 03:14 hellitsaboutme wrote:
HSM (Raven's missle) destroys any zerg army, regardless what zerg builds. There is no EMP and feedback. Why don't you mention that? So basically, if banelings are nerfed that would mean you will survive until Ravens which is auto win for terran.
Ultralisk don't give a shit about HSM. And i don't fight for my race. This is BETA version and i make a proposition to make it better balanced.
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On March 19 2010 03:29 hellitsaboutme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 03:18 superstartran wrote:On March 19 2010 03:15 Defrag wrote:On March 19 2010 03:10 superstartran wrote:On March 19 2010 02:56 Koffiegast wrote:
Tbh replace banelings with lurker, I also dont like them.
Banelings are a one trick pony. Yet I find it funny when T cries when a couple banelings actually manage into his MMM ball which he most likely a-moved. Ive had several occassions were I managed waves of units from 4 sides at the same time, yet the couple tanks and MMM ball survived the slaughter (as there wasnt any actually). I honestly wouldnt see banelings as OP, sure they may be effective against rines when rines stand still or when T doesnt scan/detect and T walks with his army clumped over a burrowed group of banes or when Z simply outmacroed the T and got too many, but afaik they arent a guaranteed win. The other side however about mass banelings is that when they actually kill some rines, they also die. This basically means that both teams are effectively losing army. In the open and such, you can easily micro your army away from the banelings and manage to kill them, heck with a couple tanks chances are you dont even need to do that. Don't make me laugh, who the hell goes Banelings and doesn't go Mutas. Once you kill off the majority of Marines with your Ling/Banelings you swoop in with your Mutas and go LOL all over the Terran army who has no anti-air anymore. I dont, and I think a lot of other zerg players dont as well. The reason is simple, building enough of mutalisks to use them as your main strike force needs A TON of gas ( 3 bases+ really ) and building banelings isnt cheap in gas well. But let's skip that and say zerg have 3 bases, and goes mass mutalisk/baneling. Banelings are pretty much useless in that case without other meat shield on the ground that could absorb tanks dmg, since they wont even reach the target, especially with new AI of tanks ( no overkills ). Banelings ARE strong if used properly, but hey - you could say it's pretty ridiculous as well that most of terrans play MMM against anything and still manage to win a 45 minute long games with tier1 starting unit. Don't give me that crap, have you watched any replays lately? Every Z player goes Ling/Baneling contain, into 2 expos with Mass Muta/Baneling/Ling push before Terran gets to his late game units. It's nearly unstoppable and almost retarded. If you push out the Z has so many ways to see you coming, and can ambush you from alot of directions in this game (such as the grass points, from Xel Naga towers, burrow, etc.) Banelings can be used bad, but it's really hard to do so when you have vision of the whole map and map control. The Terran at most is sitting on his natural (best case scenario) and is probably wondering how the hell is he going to push out. Banelings are a BIG reason why this match-up is so stupid at the moment; one good use of Banelings means GG Terran. Do you agree that in TvZ banelings are overpowered in early-mid game and HSM is overpowered in late game? If you don't please explain why. I'm not on T or Z side, just say neutral. I want this game to be perfectly balanced and to become the best e-sports game. To do so every matchup should balanced at any stage of the game. I think your problem is that you see the game only from terran's point of view (Basically not only you) Those who are zergs please try to be in terrans place.
Here's the thing, Marines are your BEST counter to Mutalisks. This is a universally accepted truth. Vikings blow against Mutas, have 0 armor, and cost too much gas to keep up. Thors are too expensive, slow, etc. Banelings however counter the crap out of them, so what can you do? Sit in your base and turtle. Basically all you can do, is hope you can survive till Ravens, and hope the Zerg didn't take advantage of having control of the whole map.
I agree that TvZ HSM is overpowered if we were talking about even field conditions (such as 3 base T vs 4 base Z). However, that almost NEVER happens in this match-up because of Banelings, which prevent any kind of movement outside of a Terran's natural. Moving out in full force is too big of a risk when he can just instantly kill all your Marines, and clean up Mauraders with Lings.
I may only see the view from a Terran's PoV, but I do agree with Z player's that HSM is POSSIBLY OP if a Terran player managed to A. Prevent Muta harass from being effective, B. Stopped Z from easily taking 3rd expo (which is nearly impossible to do), and C. Forced Z to constantly make units throughout the entire game (almost impossible to do also, since this map pool heavily favors Z except a few like LT, which is a good map).
Zerg players have so many weapons at their disposal to counter early timing attacks of M&M (Baneling/Ling is very deadly, and because you have sight with Overlord and control of Xel Naga towers, you will almost always have position advantage on Terran moving out). Because of this, a Terran player has to either be...
1. God with micro and his macro early on with his timing attack, and hope to end the game right there
2. Turtle in his base, get Ravens, hope Z didn't expo 4+ times on him
3. Wait until he has critical mass of MMM, go out and fight Z before he has Broodlords and other high tech units, and hope the Z player sucks at controlling his army
In nearly every scenario you are in a losing position.
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On March 19 2010 03:38 3D.Strelok wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 03:10 superstartran wrote:
Don't make me laugh, who the hell goes Banelings and doesn't go Mutas. Once you kill off the majority of Marines with your Ling/Banelings you swoop in with your Mutas and go LOL all over the Terran army who has no anti-air anymore. 80% of top-zergs in european platinum league don't do muta + banelings prefering doing hydra+roach+baneling Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 03:11 Defrag wrote:
Tanks counter them pretty well, at least by players that bother to target and attack moving banelings. Tanks are very slow, you can defend with them but never attack. Show nested quote +because zerg won't give you 3-d base with his banelings and army. I dont agree, I've played with players that can secure as many bases as avarage zerg player. Bunkers are not expensive, they eat dmg pretty well, and if they are no longer needed - you can sell them again. The problem is not in defending. Problem is in attacking. Watch Dimaga vs Morrow game from Zotac. Morrow went mass tanking and 3-d base. Dimaga just switched to ultralisks. Morrow could do nothing. Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 03:14 hellitsaboutme wrote:
HSM (Raven's missle) destroys any zerg army, regardless what zerg builds. There is no EMP and feedback. Why don't you mention that? So basically, if banelings are nerfed that would mean you will survive until Ravens which is auto win for terran. Ultralisk don't give a shit about HSM. And i don't fight for my race. This is BETA version and i make a proposition to make it better balanced.
It's just a matter of seconds for stimmed Maradeurs and Tanks to kill Ultralisks. (Ultras dont kill ravens, you can turtle and move around with Ravens only. No more scorges)
Then make proposition where you consider pros and cons of all races not only yours. I am totally ok with making suggestions and propositions, if it's done wisely.
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On March 19 2010 03:38 3D.Strelok wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 03:10 superstartran wrote:
Don't make me laugh, who the hell goes Banelings and doesn't go Mutas. Once you kill off the majority of Marines with your Ling/Banelings you swoop in with your Mutas and go LOL all over the Terran army who has no anti-air anymore. 80% of top-zergs in european platinum league don't do muta + banelings prefering doing hydra+roach+banelingShow nested quote +On March 19 2010 03:11 Defrag wrote:
Tanks counter them pretty well, at least by players that bother to target and attack moving banelings. Tanks are very slow, you can defend with them but never attack. Show nested quote +because zerg won't give you 3-d base with his banelings and army. I dont agree, I've played with players that can secure as many bases as avarage zerg player. Bunkers are not expensive, they eat dmg pretty well, and if they are no longer needed - you can sell them again. The problem is not in defending. Problem is in attacking. Watch Dimaga vs Morrow game from Zotac. Morrow went mass tanking and 3-d base. Dimaga just switched to ultralisks. Morrow could do nothing. Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 03:14 hellitsaboutme wrote:
HSM (Raven's missle) destroys any zerg army, regardless what zerg builds. There is no EMP and feedback. Why don't you mention that? So basically, if banelings are nerfed that would mean you will survive until Ravens which is auto win for terran. Ultralisk don't give a shit about HSM. And i don't fight for my race. This is BETA version and i make a proposition to make it better balanced.
This is another combination that is very strong, but I find that Ling/Muta/Baneling is much stronger overall, especially on maps where Terran has a tougher time expanding on (Desert Oasis and Scrapyard for instance).
Either way, any decent Z player will control the map with Banelings early, and obtain his almost virtually free 3rd expo relatively early.
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Sorry all that I am noob in using quotes. Now I see how my posts are horrible  Will improve next ones
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I play random plat and I think banelings are very balanced. You need to deal with them using micro, marauders, stim, and helions.
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On March 19 2010 03:48 hellitsaboutme wrote: It's just a matter of seconds for stimmed Maradeurs and Tanks to kill Ultralisks. (Ultras dont kill ravens, you can turtle and move around with Ravens only. No more scorges)
Then make proposition where you consider pros and cons of all races not only yours. I am totally ok with making suggestions and propositions, if it's done wisely.
Oh really? Tanks shot ultralisks 1 time. Ultralisk come into rines and marauders. Tanks shot all your army with next shot theirself. To kill 1 ultralisk you need to make 10 tanks shot. It's not first starcraft yo!
Second thing. I am terran user. Before making solution i have reached top-2 of platinum and 2000+++ points with playing over 600 games. I have no clue what's going on in zvp or pvp matchup. I won't win even 1500 zerg in zvz how the hell i can ask for changing balance? And who the hell are you to tell me what to do and judge about wisdom of my suggestions in such a thone? Make attitude to my words and arguments. Not to myself please!
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On March 19 2010 04:02 FortuneSyn wrote:
I play random plat and I think banelings are very balanced. You need to deal with them using micro, marauders, stim, and helions.
And if he sees you too Maurader/Helion heavy he either stops making Banelings and goes mass Hydra/Roach (which WILL beat you due to lack of DPS from Marines), or into Mutas and harasses you to death, contains you, then expos all over the map. Baneling affects this match-up far too much, and has too much of a GG factor early on for this match-up to be balanced, just as how HSM can GG an entire army late game, Banelings are essentially the same thing early on.
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On March 19 2010 03:49 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 03:38 3D.Strelok wrote:On March 19 2010 03:10 superstartran wrote:
Don't make me laugh, who the hell goes Banelings and doesn't go Mutas. Once you kill off the majority of Marines with your Ling/Banelings you swoop in with your Mutas and go LOL all over the Terran army who has no anti-air anymore. 80% of top-zergs in european platinum league don't do muta + banelings prefering doing hydra+roach+banelingOn March 19 2010 03:11 Defrag wrote:
Tanks counter them pretty well, at least by players that bother to target and attack moving banelings. Tanks are very slow, you can defend with them but never attack. because zerg won't give you 3-d base with his banelings and army. I dont agree, I've played with players that can secure as many bases as avarage zerg player. Bunkers are not expensive, they eat dmg pretty well, and if they are no longer needed - you can sell them again. The problem is not in defending. Problem is in attacking. Watch Dimaga vs Morrow game from Zotac. Morrow went mass tanking and 3-d base. Dimaga just switched to ultralisks. Morrow could do nothing. On March 19 2010 03:14 hellitsaboutme wrote:
HSM (Raven's missle) destroys any zerg army, regardless what zerg builds. There is no EMP and feedback. Why don't you mention that? So basically, if banelings are nerfed that would mean you will survive until Ravens which is auto win for terran. Ultralisk don't give a shit about HSM. And i don't fight for my race. This is BETA version and i make a proposition to make it better balanced. This is another combination that is very strong, but I find that Ling/Muta/Baneling is much stronger overall, especially on maps where Terran has a tougher time expanding on (Desert Oasis and Scrapyard for instance). Either way, any decent Z player will control the map with Banelings early, and obtain his almost virtually free 3rd expo relatively early.
I fully agree that Muta+baneling has some advantages. But it also has some disadvantages  It's just way of play, not mandgatory for zerg, right?
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On March 19 2010 04:08 3D.Strelok wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 03:49 superstartran wrote:On March 19 2010 03:38 3D.Strelok wrote:On March 19 2010 03:10 superstartran wrote:
Don't make me laugh, who the hell goes Banelings and doesn't go Mutas. Once you kill off the majority of Marines with your Ling/Banelings you swoop in with your Mutas and go LOL all over the Terran army who has no anti-air anymore. 80% of top-zergs in european platinum league don't do muta + banelings prefering doing hydra+roach+banelingOn March 19 2010 03:11 Defrag wrote:
Tanks counter them pretty well, at least by players that bother to target and attack moving banelings. Tanks are very slow, you can defend with them but never attack. because zerg won't give you 3-d base with his banelings and army. I dont agree, I've played with players that can secure as many bases as avarage zerg player. Bunkers are not expensive, they eat dmg pretty well, and if they are no longer needed - you can sell them again. The problem is not in defending. Problem is in attacking. Watch Dimaga vs Morrow game from Zotac. Morrow went mass tanking and 3-d base. Dimaga just switched to ultralisks. Morrow could do nothing. On March 19 2010 03:14 hellitsaboutme wrote:
HSM (Raven's missle) destroys any zerg army, regardless what zerg builds. There is no EMP and feedback. Why don't you mention that? So basically, if banelings are nerfed that would mean you will survive until Ravens which is auto win for terran. Ultralisk don't give a shit about HSM. And i don't fight for my race. This is BETA version and i make a proposition to make it better balanced. This is another combination that is very strong, but I find that Ling/Muta/Baneling is much stronger overall, especially on maps where Terran has a tougher time expanding on (Desert Oasis and Scrapyard for instance). Either way, any decent Z player will control the map with Banelings early, and obtain his almost virtually free 3rd expo relatively early. I fully agree that Muta+baneling has some advantages. But it also has some disadvantages It's just way of play, not mandgatory for zerg, right?
Of course Muta/Baneling has disadvantages, such as being gas heavy. However, Z can obtain 3rd expo almost for free on the currently map pool (especially on those 3 maps I listed) due to the Terran being too scared to move out for fear of an ambush or Muta harass.
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I hope that MorroW will check this thread out, he has a suggestion about banelings that I find pretty reasonable and worth trying:
Banelings currently deal damage when they are KILLED, even if they didn't launch their attack. This makes it impossible to counter them well with any ground unit.
So his suggestion is to make them NOT dal damage when killed. Just like Infested Terrans in BW.
Imo this would help a lot because stimmed marines will be able to take out quite a few banes before they actually get hurt. Add awesome focus fire and you can hold off a lot of banes.
A further modification could be to lengthen the attack animation. A baneling would get close to a marine and take some time before it actually deals damage. If it gets killed during that time it deals no damage.
I don't think these changes would hurt zvp a lot. I almost never use banelings zvp. They are just more expensive 1-shot targets for collossi.
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EPT
