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On March 19 2010 04:14 spinesheath wrote:
I hope that MorroW will check this thread out, he has a suggestion about banelings that I find pretty reasonable and worth trying:
Banelings currently deal damage when they are KILLED, even if they didn't launch their attack. This makes it impossible to counter them well with any ground unit.
So his suggestion is to make them NOT dal damage when killed. Just like Infested Terrans in BW.
Imo this would help a lot because stimmed marines will be able to take out quite a few banes before they actually get hurt. Add awesome focus fire and you can hold off a lot of banes.
A further modification could be to lengthen the attack animation. A baneling would get close to a marine and take some time before it actually deals damage. If it gets killed during that time it deals no damage.
I don't think these changes would hurt zvp a lot. I almost never use banelings zvp. They are just more expensive 1-shot targets for collossi.
This would probably make things fair, but then Zerg players will start crying about how they can't just roll their Banelings into MMM and auto win anymore.
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Watch one of the last games between Morrow and Dimaga on LT - Morrow picks a small group of marauders stims them and puts them on front. He won the battle impressively.
Also watch CowGoMoo vs KHB on blistering sands - microed helions do the trick.
Tanks can help as well.
Pure MMM die terribly.
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On March 19 2010 04:05 3D.Strelok wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 03:48 hellitsaboutme wrote: It's just a matter of seconds for stimmed Maradeurs and Tanks to kill Ultralisks. (Ultras dont kill ravens, you can turtle and move around with Ravens only. No more scorges)
Then make proposition where you consider pros and cons of all races not only yours. I am totally ok with making suggestions and propositions, if it's done wisely. Oh really? Tanks shot ultralisks 1 time. Ultralisk come into rines and marauders. Tanks shot all your army with next shot theirself. To kill 1 ultralisk you need to make 10 tanks shot. It's not first starcraft yo! Second thing. I am terran user. Before making solution i have reached top-2 of platinum and 2000+++ points with playing over 600 games. I have no clue what's going on in zvp or pvp matchup. I won't win even 1500 zerg in zvz how the hell i can ask for changing balance? And who the hell are you to tell me what to do and judge about wisdom of my suggestions in such a thone? Make attitude to my words and arguments. Not to myself please!
I think you got me wrong. I didn't say anything about your personality. By saying to make suggestion wisely I mean consider all PROS and CONS. I bring my apologizes about тянуть одеяло.
You've played so many games. I don't doubt your skills. Have you reached that stage of game where you had like 6-7 ravens with researched HSM vs platinum zerg? I guess not often, because you never survive to that late, you win or die. What I am trying to say is that if banelings (or mutas whatever) are nerfed then most probably the game will continue to late macro stage where you get a lot of ravens (like tons of vessels before). But zergs won't have decent counter for them, eventhough he will make a lot of Ultras. Ultras will die constantly clashing to your army but not Ravens.
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On March 19 2010 04:23 hellitsaboutme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 04:05 3D.Strelok wrote:On March 19 2010 03:48 hellitsaboutme wrote: It's just a matter of seconds for stimmed Maradeurs and Tanks to kill Ultralisks. (Ultras dont kill ravens, you can turtle and move around with Ravens only. No more scorges)
Then make proposition where you consider pros and cons of all races not only yours. I am totally ok with making suggestions and propositions, if it's done wisely. Oh really? Tanks shot ultralisks 1 time. Ultralisk come into rines and marauders. Tanks shot all your army with next shot theirself. To kill 1 ultralisk you need to make 10 tanks shot. It's not first starcraft yo! Second thing. I am terran user. Before making solution i have reached top-2 of platinum and 2000+++ points with playing over 600 games. I have no clue what's going on in zvp or pvp matchup. I won't win even 1500 zerg in zvz how the hell i can ask for changing balance? And who the hell are you to tell me what to do and judge about wisdom of my suggestions in such a thone? Make attitude to my words and arguments. Not to myself please! I think you got me wrong. I didn't say anything about your personality. By saying to make suggestion wisely I mean consider all PROS and CONS. I bring my apologizes about тянуть одеяло. You've played so many games. I don't doubt your skills. Have you reached that stage of game where you had like 6-7 ravens with researched HSM vs platinum zerg? I guess not often, because you never survive to that late, you win or die. What I am trying to say is that if banelings (or mutas whatever) are nerfed then most probably the game will continue to late macro stage where you get a lot of ravens (like tons of vessels before). But zergs won't have decent counter for them, eventhough he will make a lot of Ultras. Ultras will die constantly clashing to your army but not Ravens.
Yes but at that point you have empty mana Ravens and he just simply macros another army in time before your Ravens have mana to HSM again. Either way, Z is still winning this fight.
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On March 19 2010 04:20 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 04:14 spinesheath wrote:
I hope that MorroW will check this thread out, he has a suggestion about banelings that I find pretty reasonable and worth trying:
Banelings currently deal damage when they are KILLED, even if they didn't launch their attack. This makes it impossible to counter them well with any ground unit.
So his suggestion is to make them NOT dal damage when killed. Just like Infested Terrans in BW.
Imo this would help a lot because stimmed marines will be able to take out quite a few banes before they actually get hurt. Add awesome focus fire and you can hold off a lot of banes.
A further modification could be to lengthen the attack animation. A baneling would get close to a marine and take some time before it actually deals damage. If it gets killed during that time it deals no damage.
I don't think these changes would hurt zvp a lot. I almost never use banelings zvp. They are just more expensive 1-shot targets for collossi. This would probably make things fair, but then Zerg players will start crying about how they can't just roll their Banelings into MMM and auto win anymore.
At least I wouldn't cry. And who cares about some people whining?
Besides, you can't just roll your banes into the enemy anyways. I've seen people form an almost perfect circle of marauders around their marines. What you really want to do is push some holes into the marine defense and "inject" banelings into the MMM ball.
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On March 19 2010 04:14 spinesheath wrote:
I hope that MorroW will check this thread out, he has a suggestion about banelings that I find pretty reasonable and worth trying:
Banelings currently deal damage when they are KILLED, even if they didn't launch their attack. This makes it impossible to counter them well with any ground unit.
So his suggestion is to make them NOT dal damage when killed. Just like Infested Terrans in BW.
Imo this would help a lot because stimmed marines will be able to take out quite a few banes before they actually get hurt. Add awesome focus fire and you can hold off a lot of banes.
A further modification could be to lengthen the attack animation. A baneling would get close to a marine and take some time before it actually deals damage. If it gets killed during that time it deals no damage.
I don't think these changes would hurt zvp a lot. I almost never use banelings zvp. They are just more expensive 1-shot targets for collossi.
I am sorry can you explain a bit more? Do you mean reaver-tank thing when tanks goes away from scarab and takes half of damage?
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On March 19 2010 04:26 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 04:23 hellitsaboutme wrote:On March 19 2010 04:05 3D.Strelok wrote:On March 19 2010 03:48 hellitsaboutme wrote: It's just a matter of seconds for stimmed Maradeurs and Tanks to kill Ultralisks. (Ultras dont kill ravens, you can turtle and move around with Ravens only. No more scorges)
Then make proposition where you consider pros and cons of all races not only yours. I am totally ok with making suggestions and propositions, if it's done wisely. Oh really? Tanks shot ultralisks 1 time. Ultralisk come into rines and marauders. Tanks shot all your army with next shot theirself. To kill 1 ultralisk you need to make 10 tanks shot. It's not first starcraft yo! Second thing. I am terran user. Before making solution i have reached top-2 of platinum and 2000+++ points with playing over 600 games. I have no clue what's going on in zvp or pvp matchup. I won't win even 1500 zerg in zvz how the hell i can ask for changing balance? And who the hell are you to tell me what to do and judge about wisdom of my suggestions in such a thone? Make attitude to my words and arguments. Not to myself please! I think you got me wrong. I didn't say anything about your personality. By saying to make suggestion wisely I mean consider all PROS and CONS. I bring my apologizes about тянуть одеяло. You've played so many games. I don't doubt your skills. Have you reached that stage of game where you had like 6-7 ravens with researched HSM vs platinum zerg? I guess not often, because you never survive to that late, you win or die. What I am trying to say is that if banelings (or mutas whatever) are nerfed then most probably the game will continue to late macro stage where you get a lot of ravens (like tons of vessels before). But zergs won't have decent counter for them, eventhough he will make a lot of Ultras. Ultras will die constantly clashing to your army but not Ravens. Yes but at that point you have empty mana Ravens and he just simply macros another army in time before your Ravens have mana to HSM again. Either way, Z is still winning this fight.
I doubt zerg will win this. Considering stacking of zerg army 3-4 HSMs will do such amount of damage that time spent for zerg to recover will be enough to restore energy. Remember HSMs are free and units are not.
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On March 19 2010 04:14 spinesheath wrote:
I hope that MorroW will check this thread out, he has a suggestion about banelings that I find pretty reasonable and worth trying:
Banelings currently deal damage when they are KILLED, even if they didn't launch their attack. This makes it impossible to counter them well with any ground unit.
So his suggestion is to make them NOT dal damage when killed. Just like Infested Terrans in BW.
Imo this would help a lot because stimmed marines will be able to take out quite a few banes before they actually get hurt. Add awesome focus fire and you can hold off a lot of banes.
Just some ideas from someone who hasn't played SC2 yet:
What about making the splash radius of banelings that are killed smaller than those that detonate?
If you shot it while it was RIGHT on top of you, it would kill some but not as many, if it was a small distance away, it might kill none whereas before you would still lose some marines.
Alternatively, how about making the ones that explode due to being killed deal less dmg compared to those that explode themselves? Kind of like their explosion wasn't optimized.
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I'm sorry, I don't know what terran's fixation is about banelings. Literally they work against two terran units. SCVs and marines. That's it. God forbid a higher tech unit that costs *gas* and takes twice as much time to build should defeat a single tier one unit.
Hellions in amounts greater than or equal to 4, roast banelings in droves, and they don't even cost gas. Marauders, which every terran has, completely demolish banelings if they get in the way. Even the ghost is improbably not classified light and would take 9 banelings to kill him. A couple seigemoded tanks will kill 3 or 4 banelings per shot.
Stop building useless medivacs when you see banelings and build some tanks or hellions instead, and watch as banelings cease to be a problem. Or do what you are doing now, but hotkey your marauders into a special hotkey and move them forward when you see banelings.
And as a sidenote, ultras really are useless against terran. They have pathing issues, so ravens can throw down turrets and render them completely useless. Even without that they die in seconds. You could have 10 ultras and a medium size mmm ball, and the ultras would probably mostly die. It is pretty ludicrous. I never thought I would suggest upgrading ultras, but there you are. They need to be way smaller than they are, but with the same stats.
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On March 19 2010 04:30 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 04:20 superstartran wrote:On March 19 2010 04:14 spinesheath wrote:
I hope that MorroW will check this thread out, he has a suggestion about banelings that I find pretty reasonable and worth trying:
Banelings currently deal damage when they are KILLED, even if they didn't launch their attack. This makes it impossible to counter them well with any ground unit.
So his suggestion is to make them NOT dal damage when killed. Just like Infested Terrans in BW.
Imo this would help a lot because stimmed marines will be able to take out quite a few banes before they actually get hurt. Add awesome focus fire and you can hold off a lot of banes.
A further modification could be to lengthen the attack animation. A baneling would get close to a marine and take some time before it actually deals damage. If it gets killed during that time it deals no damage.
I don't think these changes would hurt zvp a lot. I almost never use banelings zvp. They are just more expensive 1-shot targets for collossi. This would probably make things fair, but then Zerg players will start crying about how they can't just roll their Banelings into MMM and auto win anymore. At least I wouldn't cry. And who cares about some people whining? Besides, you can't just roll your banes into the enemy anyways. I've seen people form an almost perfect circle of marauders around their marines. What you really want to do is push some holes into the marine defense and "inject" banelings into the MMM ball.
Ok, I wouldn't say "auto win if you roll them in" but if you use them properly with the amount of map control and vision you have at the beginning of the game, there's no reason why you shouldn't win every fight.
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im a zerg, i know what you mean. rather than getting all fancy, i think a simple movement speed decrease/radius reduction/gas increase/gas increase on upgrade could solve the problem.
of those i would probably make the radius a bit smaller, and make the upgrade 40 gas from 25 gas.
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On March 19 2010 04:46 onmach wrote:
I'm sorry, I don't know what terran's fixation is about banelings. Literally they work against two terran units. SCVs and marines. That's it. God forbid a higher tech unit that costs *gas* and takes twice as much time to build should defeat a single tier one unit.
Hellions in amounts greater than or equal to 4, roast banelings in droves, and they don't even cost gas. Marauders, which every terran has, completely demolish banelings if they get in the way. Even the ghost is improbably not classified light and would take 9 banelings to kill him. A couple seigemoded tanks will kill 3 or 4 banelings per shot.
Stop building useless medivacs when you see banelings and build some tanks or hellions instead, and watch as banelings cease to be a problem. Or do what you are doing now, but hotkey your marauders into a special hotkey and move them forward when you see banelings.
And as a sidenote, ultras really are useless against terran. They have pathing issues, so ravens can throw down turrets and render them completely useless. Even without that they die in seconds. You could have 10 ultras and a medium size mmm ball, and the ultras would probably mostly die. It is pretty ludicrous. I never thought I would suggest upgrading ultras, but there you are. They need to be way smaller than they are, but with the same stats.
Helions suck against speed lings, and if your wasting gas on Tanks you have no Medivacs and are totally immobile, which results in him Muta harassing you all day until he has 5+ saturated bases and a 200 supply food army.
Mauraders are decent counters until speed upgrade, and even then a Z player will never straight up engage from the front, he will always attempt a surround.
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Actually, if you have been keeping up macro wise, a baneling must hit AT LEAST 3 marines to get their money back.
baneling costs 50/25 each, and you need two to kill 3 rines.
If banelings gets absorbed by marauders, then its almost a sure lost on the zerg side. you need more then half a dozen banelings to kill a marauder, and thats like 500 resources to kill 125 (hard counter)
Flanking? you will DEFINITELY have more marauders then the ammount of flank options the zerg has. If the zerg has 3 flank directions and you have 3 marauders, you should still be able to protect your troops. with micro, banelings is NEVER cost effective against MMM, just like how lurkers can eat shyt vs MnM.
As it was said before, there is no such thing as imbalanced, only bad players.
There is no such thing as "banelings overpowered", numerous people can easily micro their way out of banelings with no problem. Just because you are bad at playing the game doesnt mean the unit is imbalanced
The counter to banelings is micro, micro and more micro! (and detection).
If you cant split your rine backwards in a bunch of six into bunches of three, practice, and practice. Please dont just tag something as imbalanced just because you are bad at it.
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On March 19 2010 04:54 SturmAddict wrote:
Actually, if you have been keeping up macro wise, a baneling must hit AT LEAST 3 marines to get their money back.
baneling costs 50/25 each, and you need two to kill 3 rines.
If banelings gets absorbed by marauders, then its almost a sure lost on the zerg side. you need more then half a dozen banelings to kill a marauder, and thats like 500 resources to kill 125 (hard counter)
Flanking? you will DEFINITELY have more marauders then the ammount of flank options the zerg has. If the zerg has 3 flank directions and you have 3 marauders, you should still be able to protect your troops. with micro, banelings is NEVER cost effective against MMM, just like how lurkers can eat shyt vs MnM.
As it was said before, there is no such thing as imbalanced, only bad players.
There is no such thing as "banelings overpowered", numerous people can easily micro their way out of banelings with no problem. Just because you are bad at playing the game doesnt mean the unit is imbalanced
The counter to banelings is micro, micro and more micro! (and detection).
If you cant split your rine backwards in a bunch of six into bunches of three, practice, and practice. Please dont just tag something as imbalanced just because you are bad at it.
What, l0l. Please. DeMuslim, TeamEG players, etc. are bad Terran players? What about Louder complaining about Z imbalance? You gotta be kidding me right?
There is no cost effective counter to Banelings, the Z can afford to lose resource trades because he has huge resource/macro advantage over a Terran anyways for the entire game, unless the Zerg player was utterly terrible.
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I agree that Banelings that do not reach their target should not cause any damage. I don't know if this is what happens with the current version (I haven't really checked), but if something like this happens now then it should definately be removed.
I was looking at some ZvT replays and I know this may be completely off topic, but where did the U-238 upgrade go? (+1 range for Marines) It seems that Hydra (range 6 after upgrade) vs Marine (range 5) always gives Hydras a few shots before the Marines can attack in return. And if that wasn't enough, Marines lose an additional 10hp just to stim, and each attack from a Hydralisk is 12 damage. Dunno why they removed this upgrade. 
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On March 19 2010 04:35 3D.Strelok wrote:
I am sorry can you explain a bit more? Do you mean reaver-tank thing when tanks goes away from scarab and takes half of damage?
I don't really know which part of my post you are referring to, but I assume it is this part:
On March 19 2010 04:14 spinesheath wrote:
A further modification could be to lengthen the attack animation. A baneling would get close to a marine and take some time before it actually deals damage. If it gets killed during that time it deals no damage.
Yes this is similar to scarabs. A scarab starts exploding, but it takes a while until the damage is actually dealt. During that time the tank moves ot of the 100% damage radius and thus takes less damage. That's what I am suggesting, basically. It is similar with mines, which is why you can defuse mines with drops (so you might be able to "defuse" banes with drops if there is no antiair, which would be cool imo).
In particular my suggestion was meant as an optional addition to MorroW's suggestion (only if it wouldn't be balanced enough already). So banelings will behave most similar to mines, less similar to scarabs. Because as far as I know mines can be killed even after they start exploding, and if they are killed they won't deal any damage (DT, press hold just before the mine reaches the DT, something like that). Scarabs can't be killed so all you can do is run from the splash.
The advantage of changing banelings in this way is that it actually makes room for micro. Focus fire, hit and run etc. Autosurround would do worse, so it also forces zergs to micro more.
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On March 19 2010 05:06 DeA wrote:I agree that Banelings that do not reach their target should not cause any damage. I don't know if this is what happens with the current version (I haven't really checked), but if something like this happens now then it should definately be removed. I was looking at some ZvT replays and I know this may be completely off topic, but where did the U-238 upgrade go? (+1 range for Marines) It seems that Hydra (range 6 after upgrade) vs Marine (range 5) always gives Hydras a few shots before the Marines can attack in return. And if that wasn't enough, Marines lose an additional 10hp just to stim, and each attack from a Hydralisk is 12 damage. Dunno why they removed this upgrade.
The removal of this upgrade perplexed me too. This upgrade was key to fighting off Mutas in SC1, don't see why they don't have it here either.
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Yeah it would make sense to bring back this upgrade and probably allow other units to benefit from it (hello Reaper?) 
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On March 19 2010 04:54 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 04:46 onmach wrote:
I'm sorry, I don't know what terran's fixation is about banelings. Literally they work against two terran units. SCVs and marines. That's it. God forbid a higher tech unit that costs *gas* and takes twice as much time to build should defeat a single tier one unit.
Hellions in amounts greater than or equal to 4, roast banelings in droves, and they don't even cost gas. Marauders, which every terran has, completely demolish banelings if they get in the way. Even the ghost is improbably not classified light and would take 9 banelings to kill him. A couple seigemoded tanks will kill 3 or 4 banelings per shot.
Stop building useless medivacs when you see banelings and build some tanks or hellions instead, and watch as banelings cease to be a problem. Or do what you are doing now, but hotkey your marauders into a special hotkey and move them forward when you see banelings.
And as a sidenote, ultras really are useless against terran. They have pathing issues, so ravens can throw down turrets and render them completely useless. Even without that they die in seconds. You could have 10 ultras and a medium size mmm ball, and the ultras would probably mostly die. It is pretty ludicrous. I never thought I would suggest upgrading ultras, but there you are. They need to be way smaller than they are, but with the same stats. Helions suck against speed lings, and if your wasting gas on Tanks you have no Medivacs and are totally immobile, which results in him Muta harassing you all day until he has 5+ saturated bases and a 200 supply food army. Mauraders are decent counters until speed upgrade, and even then a Z player will never straight up engage from the front, he will always attempt a surround.
Helions do not totally suck against speedlings, are you for real?
6+ helions with soso micro toast through lings. I'm up for a discussion here, but after reading your comments it seems like you've already made up your mind and are arguing for the sake of being right.
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What, l0l. Please. DeMuslim, TeamEG players, etc. are bad Terran players? What about Louder complaining about Z imbalance? You gotta be kidding me right?
Simply means they are not good enough, but i seriously doubt they are whining specifically about banelings.
This is an e-sport game. and its NOT supposed to be "balanced" just by playing it for 1 month.
No, im not saying its not supposed to be balanced because its a beta.
Im saying its not supposed to be balanced by just one month of playing experience. Do you seriously think those players are playing at the pro level? think again.
Terran has tons of Cost effective options vs banelings.
if they run into one or two marines, thats cost effective.
if they run into single bunkers or supply depots, thats cost effective
any defensive positions with a single tank can cost effectively take out banelings
Hellions can take on any ammount of unburrowed banelings
Even if a tank or marauder dont shoot a single shot, they are STILL cost effective just by virtue of tanking all of them
in short, anything in low numbers counters banelings.
Micro and army management counters banelings, the small things like stimming away, and your marauders behind, then leaving some rines behind, and kiting at the same time are all the things that will help to stay alive.
How can you say that there is "no counter" to banelings? that makes no sense at all. Banelings are absurdly expensive, every single banelings could have been another roach into the army.
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EPT
