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Marines are your hydra counter? Put in 3-4 siege tanks with ur MmM army and its gg for the zerg unless he has Brood Lords. its really that easy. Banelings are zergs ONLY counter to MmM and you suggest we get rid of it. Why does everyone want MmM to kill zerg so easily?
"You mean i have to do some kind of micro with my marine/maurauder/medivac ball?? o no way thats op" like seriously...? MmM+2-3 siege tanks+a raven = win unless ur going against 4-5 brood lords.
Zerg has ONE and only one counter to Marine balls and its a unit that dies as soon as its used, and costs gas. Were already making a gas unit which NEEDS (speed/burrow) 2 upgrades to be useful against your 50 mineral unit.
I have NO idea how anyone claims banelings are OP at all. And lol at "somthing so maurauders counter baneling" because it only takes like 5-6 banelings to kill a single maurauder atm? not to mention maurauders have a slowing attak against a unit that requires being in melee distance. How this doesnt counter already is beyond me..
Not to mention that if maurauders counter banelings anymore than they do, then they hard counter banelings and roaches= we then have no useful t1 unit against Marine balls as zerg.
You have more units and thus more counters to Zerg units. Hellions and siege tanks already counter hydras (and banelings)hard.Siege Tanks and Maurauders counter roaches and banelings hard. Hellions/marines/maurauders all >lings in numbers.
Ur cheapest unit (marines) counters mutas hard.
Zerg has broodlords that are countered by vikings that are countered by corrupters that are countered by marines and battlecruisers.
Lol and the guy who said "speedlings counter hellions" .. ? how? There is this thing called micro... 4 hellions can whipe out 50+zerglings in seconds if you dont just a-move ur hellions into them. Hellions actually counter all of Zerg t1-t2 ground units except roaches that will NEVER catch a hellion/if you are using ur hellions to fight roaches u deserve to lose.
I will say that zerg has advantage on protoss atm tho, we can get a good amount of speedlings be4 u can get colossus (if and only if ur going colossus, if your going immortals u lose instantly) Usually i build a roach warren just to make P go immortals, at which point a massive ball of speedlings wins.
Sorry just my 2 cents and trying to write coherently while being distracted in my philosophy class.
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On March 19 2010 05:30 mnofstl007 wrote:
Marines are your hydra counter? Put in 3-4 siege tanks with ur MmM army and its gg for the zerg unless he has Brood Lords. its really that easy. Banelings are zergs ONLY counter to MmM and you suggest we get rid of it. Why does everyone want MmM to kill zerg so easily?
"You mean i have to do some kind of micro with my marine/maurauder/medivac ball?? o no way thats op" like seriously...? MmM+2-3 siege tanks+a raven = win unless ur going against 4-5 brood lords.
Zerg has ONE and only one counter to Marine balls and its a unit that dies as soon as its used, and costs gas. Were already making a gas unit which NEEDS (speed/burrow) 2 upgrades to be useful against your 50 mineral unit.
I have NO idea how anyone claims banelings are OP at all. And lol at "somthing so maurauders counter baneling" because it only takes like 5-6 banelings to kill a single maurauder atm? not to mention maurauders have a slowing attak against a unit that requires being in melee distance. How this doesnt counter already is beyond me..
Not to mention that if maurauders counter banelings anymore than they do, then they hard counter banelings and roaches= we then have no useful t1 unit against Marine balls as zerg.
You have more units and thus more counters to Zerg units. Hellions and siege tanks already counter hydras (and banelings)hard.Siege Tanks and Maurauders counter roaches and banelings hard. Hellions/marines/maurauders all >lings in numbers.
Ur cheapest unit (marines) counters mutas hard.
Zerg has broodlords that are countered by vikings that are countered by corrupters that are countered by marines and battlecruisers.
Lol and the guy who said "speedlings counter hellions" .. ? how? There is this thing called micro... 4 hellions can whipe out 50+zerglings in seconds if you dont just a-move ur hellions into them. Hellions actually counter all of Zerg t1-t2 ground units except roaches that will NEVER catch a hellion/if you are using ur hellions to fight roaches u deserve to lose.
I will say that zerg has advantage on protoss atm tho, we can get a good amount of speedlings be4 u can get colossus (if and only if ur going colossus, if your going immortals u lose instantly) Usually i build a roach warren just to make P go immortals, at which point a massive ball of speedlings wins.
Sorry just my 2 cents and trying to write coherently while being distracted in my philosophy class.
You're dumb. Speedlings can surround 4 Helions so fast it's not even funny. Sure, if you invested 2k minerals + gas into the attack upgrade, yeah Helions rape Lings. But if you put that many resources into Helions, he's gonna scout it and go into Mutas and rofl all over you.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 19 2010 05:30 mnofstl007 wrote:
Marines are your hydra counter? Put in 3-4 siege tanks with ur MmM army and its gg for the zerg unless he has Brood Lords. its really that easy. Banelings are zergs ONLY counter to MmM and you suggest we get rid of it. Why does everyone want MmM to kill zerg so easily?
"You mean i have to do some kind of micro with my marine/maurauder/medivac ball?? o no way thats op" like seriously...? MmM+2-3 siege tanks+a raven = win unless ur going against 4-5 brood lords.
Zerg has ONE and only one counter to Marine balls and its a unit that dies as soon as its used, and costs gas. Were already making a gas unit which NEEDS (speed/burrow) 2 upgrades to be useful against your 50 mineral unit.
I have NO idea how anyone claims banelings are OP at all. And lol at "somthing so maurauders counter baneling" because it only takes like 5-6 banelings to kill a single maurauder atm? not to mention maurauders have a slowing attak against a unit that requires being in melee distance. How this doesnt counter already is beyond me..
Not to mention that if maurauders counter banelings anymore than they do, then they hard counter banelings and roaches= we then have no useful t1 unit against Marine balls as zerg.
You have more units and thus more counters to Zerg units. Hellions and siege tanks already counter hydras (and banelings)hard.Siege Tanks and Maurauders counter roaches and banelings hard. Hellions/marines/maurauders all >lings in numbers.
Ur cheapest unit (marines) counters mutas hard.
Zerg has broodlords that are countered by vikings that are countered by corrupters that are countered by marines and battlecruisers.
Lol and the guy who said "speedlings counter hellions" .. ? how? There is this thing called micro... 4 hellions can whipe out 50+zerglings in seconds if you dont just a-move ur hellions into them. Hellions actually counter all of Zerg t1-t2 ground units except roaches that will NEVER catch a hellion/if you are using ur hellions to fight roaches u deserve to lose.
I will say that zerg has advantage on protoss atm tho, we can get a good amount of speedlings be4 u can get colossus (if and only if ur going colossus, if your going immortals u lose instantly) Usually i build a roach warren just to make P go immortals, at which point a massive ball of speedlings wins.
Sorry just my 2 cents and trying to write coherently while being distracted in my philosophy class.
You don't need burrow at all. 2-3 siege tanks can be easily be ignored if you got mass spling/bling. Hellions are less useful in large battles because you can't micro with them and even if you do you will just move behind your MMM force and thus open the way for the lings.
4 hellions with micro don't wipe out 50+ lings if the lings are microed too.
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you can't count scenarios where its one unit against another one unit to see whether it counters. scenarios are different with higher number of units. 4 hellions are only worth 16 lings...how about 13 hellions vs 52 lings, that seems to be fine and if you micro correctly should be no problem.
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On March 19 2010 04:14 spinesheath wrote:
I hope that MorroW will check this thread out, he has a suggestion about banelings that I find pretty reasonable and worth trying:
Banelings currently deal damage when they are KILLED, even if they didn't launch their attack. This makes it impossible to counter them well with any ground unit.
So his suggestion is to make them NOT dal damage when killed. Just like Infested Terrans in BW.
Imo this would help a lot because stimmed marines will be able to take out quite a few banes before they actually get hurt. Add awesome focus fire and you can hold off a lot of banes.
A further modification could be to lengthen the attack animation. A baneling would get close to a marine and take some time before it actually deals damage. If it gets killed during that time it deals no damage.
I don't think these changes would hurt zvp a lot. I almost never use banelings zvp. They are just more expensive 1-shot targets for collossi.
That would be terrible and make the unit useless for any top-ladder players.
All it would required is to split army for two binds, move with one, attack with second, then move second and attack with first. Even if banelings get to your army, they would blow up in space where terran is no longer standing.
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On March 19 2010 04:23 hellitsaboutme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 04:05 3D.Strelok wrote:On March 19 2010 03:48 hellitsaboutme wrote: It's just a matter of seconds for stimmed Maradeurs and Tanks to kill Ultralisks. (Ultras dont kill ravens, you can turtle and move around with Ravens only. No more scorges)
Then make proposition where you consider pros and cons of all races not only yours. I am totally ok with making suggestions and propositions, if it's done wisely. Oh really? Tanks shot ultralisks 1 time. Ultralisk come into rines and marauders. Tanks shot all your army with next shot theirself. To kill 1 ultralisk you need to make 10 tanks shot. It's not first starcraft yo! Second thing. I am terran user. Before making solution i have reached top-2 of platinum and 2000+++ points with playing over 600 games. I have no clue what's going on in zvp or pvp matchup. I won't win even 1500 zerg in zvz how the hell i can ask for changing balance? And who the hell are you to tell me what to do and judge about wisdom of my suggestions in such a thone? Make attitude to my words and arguments. Not to myself please! I think you got me wrong. I didn't say anything about your personality. By saying to make suggestion wisely I mean consider all PROS and CONS. I bring my apologizes about тянуть одеяло. You've played so many games. I don't doubt your skills. Have you reached that stage of game where you had like 6-7 ravens with researched HSM vs platinum zerg? I guess not often, because you never survive to that late, you win or die. What I am trying to say is that if banelings (or mutas whatever) are nerfed then most probably the game will continue to late macro stage where you get a lot of ravens (like tons of vessels before). But zergs won't have decent counter for them, eventhough he will make a lot of Ultras. Ultras will die constantly clashing to your army but not Ravens.
And tell me, have you ever seen a zerg win in 10 minutes against Terran?
This is a VERY specific match up, Zerg cant rush terran due to walling-in and Terran gets problem attacking as well, since upgraded banelings on creep are impossible to get away from.
This is a macro war, and late game is what matters here. Majority of games I've seen from Zotac cups are almost always 20 minutes plus, while I saw some ZvP and Zvz under 8 minutes.
EDIT: Just to clarify, I have around 30% of my games as random, around 20% as Terran and 50% as Zerg. Almost 500 played.
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zerg has nothing to counter mnm ball except banelings, if u nerf banelings theres no way to play tvz,
mutas are horrible right now u cant even micro them, with timed engering bay, u can get 3 turrets easy, and mnm just counters muta, banelings are needed like lurkers to defeat marines, if ur whining about how zerg can attack from all sides, then dont put your self in that situation, dont blame a unit's "imba" for your terrible skills.
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On March 19 2010 06:01 frankcrest wrote:
zerg has nothing to counter mnm ball except banelings, if u nerf banelings theres no way to play tvz,
mutas are horrible right now u cant even micro them, with timed engering bay, u can get 3 turrets easy, and mnm just counters muta, banelings are needed like lurkers to defeat marines, if ur whining about how zerg can attack from all sides, then dont put your self in that situation, dont blame a unit's "imba" for your terrible skills.
So you need a unit that keeps me inside my base the entire time to win the game. Yup, totally fair.
You guys are calling for nerfs on HSM when we can't even get there in time because Baneling/Roach ambushes keep you contained for too long. If a Terran steps outside of his base, 100% of the time he will get ambushed from 2 sides, because he will not have vision of the whole map like the Z player will.
Your argument is for us to "play better"? Ok fine then. My argument to Zerg players when facing HSM is to "play better" then.
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I don't know why Zerg players are complaining about HSM. I am a Zerg player and I think if they nerf HSM it would probably be the dumbest thing ever...
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On March 19 2010 05:58 Defrag wrote:
That would be terrible and make the unit useless for any top-ladder players.
All it would required is to split army for two binds, move with one, attack with second, then move second and attack with first. Even if banelings get to your army, they would blow up in space where terran is no longer standing.
You know that there are those things called Speedlings that easily get to the rear of your army and block your retreat path? And other units like Hydralisks that are free to shoot at your retreating marines? And Infestors that fungal growth your MMM ball making it impossible to move at all?
Sure if you go all baneling you might lose all the time. But wouldn't that be expected?
On March 19 2010 06:01 frankcrest wrote:
zerg has nothing to counter mnm ball except banelings, if u nerf banelings theres no way to play tvz,
mutas are horrible right now u cant even micro them, with timed engering bay, u can get 3 turrets easy, and mnm just counters muta, banelings are needed like lurkers to defeat marines, if ur whining about how zerg can attack from all sides, then dont put your self in that situation, dont blame a unit's "imba" for your terrible skills.
Sure banelings are needed to counter marines. But the question is: Do they counter them too effectively? By the way, I am playing zerg @ platinum.
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On March 19 2010 05:40 superstartran wrote:
You're dumb. Speedlings can surround 4 Helions so fast it's not even funny. Sure, if you invested 2k minerals + gas into the attack upgrade, yeah Helions rape Lings. But if you put that many resources into Helions, he's gonna scout it and go into Mutas and rofl all over you.
how? How do you let a slower unit get a surround on you? Even if they manage to kill 4 hellions with attack upgrade (curious how this is 2000 minerals btw care to share your math?) You have doneit at the cost of a LOT of your lings which NEED the 100/100 upgrade to even stand a chance of killing a hellion. Lings without the 100/100 are free food to even a single hellion unless you dont know how to micro a hellion. If a zerg chases a running hellion, it stops and shoots a line of fire straight through all of your lings. Repeat. How can hellions lose to lings? Only way is if a better play is playing Z and the T player isnt micro'ing, but analyzing a scenario in which one is obviously better is useless for balance issues.
If he goes mass muta what is keeping ur hellions from killing all of his workers? Also- build marines? they cost 50 minerals and counter Muta's hard. U have a barracks, at least one. If you know "he is going spire" and didnt stop producing hellions an change into a something that can kill muta's...why should u win?
And to the person who said u cant micro hellions in a battle... why? And if he is using banelings why would u want ur hellions in the back?
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Bring a number of SCVs and run them into the Banelings. I've found it works well a lot of the time (i'm at platinum level).
One might argue that their mineral mining capacity will be wasted, but my retort would be that you would have 2 scenarios:
1) Early game - Pulling out SCVs right before reaching mineral saturation will be bad for mid game economy? I would guess so,but I value them higher at this point the game since they act as baneling fodder.
2) Mid/End game - Pulling them out would not have any significant economic impact (as much) since your main CC would have been saturated by now. Take the time to make a few SCVs to take the hits.
It may not be the best strat but it works for me. Z would have to micro them around SCVs to not waste them.
Here's an example:
http://www.mediafire.com/?0dzqwhzyhjy
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On March 19 2010 06:18 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 05:58 Defrag wrote:
That would be terrible and make the unit useless for any top-ladder players.
All it would required is to split army for two binds, move with one, attack with second, then move second and attack with first. Even if banelings get to your army, they would blow up in space where terran is no longer standing. You know that there are those things called Speedlings that easily get to the rear of your army and block your retreat path? And other units like Hydralisks that are free to shoot at your retreating marines? And Infestors that fungal growth your MMM ball making it impossible to move at all? Sure if you go all baneling you might lose all the time. But wouldn't that be expected? Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 06:01 frankcrest wrote:
zerg has nothing to counter mnm ball except banelings, if u nerf banelings theres no way to play tvz,
mutas are horrible right now u cant even micro them, with timed engering bay, u can get 3 turrets easy, and mnm just counters muta, banelings are needed like lurkers to defeat marines, if ur whining about how zerg can attack from all sides, then dont put your self in that situation, dont blame a unit's "imba" for your terrible skills. Sure banelings are needed to counter marines. But the question is: Do they counter them too effectively? By the way, I am playing zerg @ platinum.
Using a Infestor so tier 1 unit can be effective sounds like one of the most stupid ideas that could be implemented into game. Thats like putting a 'ammo carrier' on Terran's Factory so marines can reload after 20s of shooting ;o
Speedlings against a late-game MMM? Good luck with that, before you get to the rear and block, a 2 or 3 upgraded dmg MMM will rip you to shreds ( not mentioning about marauders slow, which stops from surrunding ).
Hydralisks are 2 slow, not even comparing to stimpacked units.
The thing is, beta is one big copy-strat fest, once people see replays from Zotac or something familiar - everyone plays MMM, or fast helion rushes.
I just played with against z Terran ( as Zerg ) that destroyed me completetly, two games in a row, and I lost against 3-4 terrans in last 2 weeks, being top20 in plat. He's just playing something original, and hard to adapt against, but well... people mass bio, attack-move and wonder why mass baneling rapes them ;o
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Those of you suggesting hellions are missing quite an important point, hellions costs high minerals as well as marines. Basically you can't spend all your minerals on hellions AND marines, but you need both, one to defend against muta, and the other against baneling. Another problem is that if your pumping out hellions you must have at least 2 facts and so the muta harass is just going to roll you over because you don't have enough barracks pumping marines, and if you don't have enough hellions the banelings are going to roll you over. If they want to make 2 viable builds, mech and bio, they need to make thors better vs air and marines better vs banelings, if they don't want two builds then they need to make either marines a lot better vs mutas or hellions a lot better vs banelings if you have to have a mix. Although i do understand the argument that a lot of terrans a attack move with their ball and don't really micro much so maybe it's just a question of micro, maybe not.
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On March 19 2010 04:14 spinesheath wrote:
I hope that MorroW will check this thread out, he has a suggestion about banelings that I find pretty reasonable and worth trying:
Banelings currently deal damage when they are KILLED, even if they didn't launch their attack. This makes it impossible to counter them well with any ground unit.
So his suggestion is to make them NOT dal damage when killed. Just like Infested Terrans in BW.
Imo this would help a lot because stimmed marines will be able to take out quite a few banes before they actually get hurt. Add awesome focus fire and you can hold off a lot of banes.
A further modification could be to lengthen the attack animation. A baneling would get close to a marine and take some time before it actually deals damage. If it gets killed during that time it deals no damage.
I don't think these changes would hurt zvp a lot. I almost never use banelings zvp. They are just more expensive 1-shot targets for collossi.
haha i wouldnt miss a single thread in sc2 with "baneling" in it
hell im even singing songs for myself in the shower of how imbalanced they r
"Banelings currently deal damage when they are KILLED, even if they didn't launch their attack. This makes it impossible to counter them well with any ground unit.
So his suggestion is to make them NOT dal damage when killed. Just like Infested Terrans in BW."
yes thats EXACTLY what i want them to change, love when ppl understand :D
gonna keep readin this lovely thread now
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On March 19 2010 06:54 Defrag wrote:
Using a Infestor so tier 1 unit can be effective sounds like one of the most stupid ideas that could be implemented into game. Thats like putting a 'ammo carrier' on Terran's Factory so marines can reload after 20s of shooting ;o
Wow, this really hurts. I'm sorry, but a lot of units in SCBW and SC2 become much more useful if combined with other units or supplemened by upgrades that don't have to be and often are not of the same tech level.
Prime example: MMMR
On March 19 2010 06:54 Defrag wrote:
Speedlings against a late-game MMM? Good luck with that, before you get to the rear and block, a 2 or 3 upgraded dmg MMM will rip you to shreds ( not mentioning about marauders slow, which stops from surrunding ).
Yep, speedlings against late game MMM. You know that for every +dmg on the marines the lings should have a +armor? Lings deal significant damage and you have tons of minerals that you can't spend on anything but lings. "getting to the rear" isn't done by running straight at the MMM ball and then around it. You can easily chose a safe path and come from the back with half your army.
On March 19 2010 06:54 Defrag wrote:
Hydralisks are 2 slow, not even comparing to stimpacked units.
They are fast enough. Especially on creep.
On March 19 2010 06:54 Defrag wrote:
The thing is, beta is one big copy-strat fest, once people see replays from Zotac or something familiar - everyone plays MMM, or fast helion rushes.
I just played with against z Terran ( as Zerg ) that destroyed me completetly, two games in a row, and I lost against 3-4 terrans in last 2 weeks, being top20 in plat. He's just playing something original, and hard to adapt against, but well... people mass bio, attack-move and wonder why mass baneling rapes them ;o
So, what did he do? Chances are that this build is not capable of finishing the game reliably and then we are back to the MMM ball again.
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Banelings dealing damage when they're killed is ridiculous. It doesn't make sense to me. I don't even care about any associated game balance, they shouldn't deal damage when they die.
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France231 Posts
On March 19 2010 06:37 mnofstl007 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 05:40 superstartran wrote:
You're dumb. Speedlings can surround 4 Helions so fast it's not even funny. Sure, if you invested 2k minerals + gas into the attack upgrade, yeah Helions rape Lings. But if you put that many resources into Helions, he's gonna scout it and go into Mutas and rofl all over you.
how? How do you let a slower unit get a surround on you? Even if they manage to kill 4 hellions with attack upgrade (curious how this is 2000 minerals btw care to share your math?) You have doneit at the cost of a LOT of your lings which NEED the 100/100 upgrade to even stand a chance of killing a hellion. Lings without the 100/100 are free food to even a single hellion unless you dont know how to micro a hellion. If a zerg chases a running hellion, it stops and shoots a line of fire straight through all of your lings. Repeat. How can hellions lose to lings? Only way is if a better play is playing Z and the T player isnt micro'ing, but analyzing a scenario in which one is obviously better is useless for balance issues. If he goes mass muta what is keeping ur hellions from killing all of his workers? Also- build marines? they cost 50 minerals and counter Muta's hard. U have a barracks, at least one. If you know "he is going spire" and didnt stop producing hellions an change into a something that can kill muta's...why should u win? And to the person who said u cant micro hellions in a battle... why? And if he is using banelings why would u want ur hellions in the back?
From my experience, speedling are faster than hellion. I spend my days microing hellion tvz as it is currently my standart bo and it's REALLY easy for zerg to exchange hellions with speedlings.
I'm not a total newb as i'm top 5 platinum, so my micro isn't bad.
And btw, no zerg will go straight to muta, they will make just enough roach for your hellion to not do anything, so your argument " but if muta you kill drone lolzor " isn't really valid.
And marines won't hard counter mutas, he'll just avoid them and harasse you.
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On March 19 2010 07:23 crate wrote:
Banelings dealing damage when they're killed is ridiculous. It doesn't make sense to me. I don't even care about any associated game balance, they shouldn't deal damage when they die.
Well it does makes sense since they're a big fat ball of acid so however they pop, stuff nearby is going to get burned. Perhaps they could make it so the bonus damage to light units isn't applied when they are shot as opposed to detonated though, so killing them in time would drop their damage from 35 to 15 on marines who are probably their number 1 target.
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I agree that banelings shouldn't deal damage from being killed, I see that as more of a glitch than a feature considering nothing in the starcraft universe (spider mines/infested kerrigans) behaves that way. Yeah, I know SC2 is a whole new game etc, etc, but I believe there must have been a thought behind the way spider mines/infested kerrigans work and I can't see that having changed.
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