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On September 11 2009 10:14 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 09:49 Archerofaiur wrote:
One possibility is that to hold the contain a 1 hatch zerg has to pump units. As soon as the zerg stops and switches to drones the terran or protoss could have more units and break out. Alternatively the P or Z can hold the ramp with a small number of troops and pour resources into teching. Zerg may have created a bunch of drones but its not going to help if my reapers come in and D8 them to hell.
As far as the "In the dark" issue the Orbital Command allows you to Scanner Sweep fairly early. Actually if you pump units to force the zerg to maintain his contain then you will fall behind economically. .
But thats the basis behind any contain.
I pump units then I can break your contain but im behind economically. I pump workers then I am ahead economically but oh no youve broke my contain.
Personally I think phoenix harass would be the perfect responce to 1 hatch. Your not going to be building units or drones if you dont have overlords :p
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Sanya12364 Posts
On September 11 2009 09:53 Archerofaiur wrote:
From Karune
"Scouting is much easier now in StarCraft II for various reasons including earlier Observers (without the prerequisite Observatory building as in the original StarCraft), more mobile units like Reapers/Colossi/Stalkers/Medivacs (more incentive now to build these than original StarCraft since they double up as medics). All of these methods of scouting will be available by mid-game and be useful from then on. Before mid game - SCVs and probes are sufficient to scout. Once Zergling speed gets upgraded, there may be a small window of more difficult scouting, but honestly, that window is much smaller than say playing against a Terran player that blocks you out completely. Additionally, Terran still have scan and Protoss still can go fast air to scout and harass Overlords.
Also mentioned in my previous post, these were just a few ways to deal with the 1 hatch threat. There are definitely ways to build your base without blocking the choke, but I have found blocking it against Zerg as the best way to keep fast Zerglings out with the least amount of attention. "
The impression that I got was that these kinds of mid-game scouting methods are still too late. The T or P would already have to invest in tier one defenses for the possibility that the hydra or ling push comes. It wouldn't help to get mid-game scouts just to find out that you're hopelessly behind.
I pump units then I can break your contain but im behind economically. I pump workers then I am ahead economically but oh no youve broke my contain.
But you only temporarily break the contain. The Z will reestablish at will. His larva will outproduce you.
Personally I think phoenix harass would be the perfect responce to 1 hatch. Your not going to be building units or drones if you dont have overlords
It'll have to be see if that works. I'm skeptical since I think that getting to phoenix would be responded to with an immediate hydra break since it would suggest that there is insufficient ground defenses.
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On September 11 2009 10:10 TheYango wrote:Because it's not just an issue of balance, but also an issue of the viability of the macro mechanics as a whole. As is, the Queen's larva injection is the only one of the three mechanics that has any real depth. An issue with the larva injection is an issue with the mechanics as a whole. This has already been addressed multiple times. The issue is not that the queen kills scouting workers, but that flawless zergling pathing makes it extremely hard to get workers past them. Queen just serves as backup if they actually get remotely close to your hatchery. Lowering queen range doesn't fix the issue, and having to screw with how pathing works in the SC2 engine is a HUGE issue.
This really sounds like a sneak attack on the better pathing. I understand that micro has been taken away from you guys, and for most of the incredible pro SC players. I understand that you guys want your opponents units to not perfectly do things on their own, to raise the skill gap.
However, this is a problem that doesnt need to be fixed by pathing changes. Pathing doesn't need to be made less perfect so that you can have an easier time getting peons past zerglings.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 11 2009 10:34 Santrega wrote:
This really sounds like a sneak attack on the better pathing. I understand that micro has been taken away from you guys, and for most of the incredible pro SC players. I understand that you guys want your opponents units to not perfectly do things on their own, to raise the skill gap.
However, this is a problem that doesnt need to be fixed by pathing changes. Pathing doesn't need to be made less perfect so that you can have an easier time getting peons past zerglings.
That wasn't what I was implying at all.
Having the period of being in the dark is fine. Having the probe easy to kill is fine. My point is though that it takes more than a few simple thoughts to fix the issue, because the most logical fix is one that many people won't like, and requires an engine overhaul. The issue of the queen right now isn't just a "minor balance change". If they sit down to change it, it potentially requires reworking how the entire zerg early game works (obviously that's a worst-case scenario, but one that needs to be accounted for)--which is why it needs to be addressed now. Beta is where numbers get tweaked, and a few things get moved around, not where units get added and removed and game mechanics get changed.
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Good:
1 All karuna considerations imply a similar level of play.
2 Thus they imply an equal use of macro.
3 The macro zerg is easier to abuse the terran and protoss, so it is easy to understand that you were using the zerg at most, and the Terrans and the Protoss were not perfectly using their macros. Cause I say that ????? pq they improved zerg macro changes in the last showing , what shows that internally the zerg this weaker.
Thus it is clear that it is good to speculate ..... but this topic is getting out of hand.
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On September 11 2009 10:55 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 10:34 Santrega wrote:
This really sounds like a sneak attack on the better pathing. I understand that micro has been taken away from you guys, and for most of the incredible pro SC players. I understand that you guys want your opponents units to not perfectly do things on their own, to raise the skill gap.
However, this is a problem that doesnt need to be fixed by pathing changes. Pathing doesn't need to be made less perfect so that you can have an easier time getting peons past zerglings.
That wasn't what I was implying at all. Having the period of being in the dark is fine. Having the probe easy to kill is fine. My point is though that it takes more than a few simple thoughts to fix the issue, because the most logical fix is one that many people won't like, and requires an engine overhaul. The issue of the queen right now isn't just a "minor balance change". If they sit down to change it, it potentially requires reworking how the entire zerg early game works (obviously that's a worst-case scenario, but one that needs to be accounted for)--which is why it needs to be addressed now. Beta is where numbers get tweaked, and a few things get moved around, not where units get added and removed and game mechanics get changed.
I would think if you say "the most logical fix", you would actually say what you think is the most logical fix... Did I somehow miss that in your post?
If you weren't implying that the pathing should be made less perfect, what is it that you are implying?
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I guess I was not clear. imagine this:
You in 1998 is a fanatic for rts.Assim you purchase 1 star right out of the game. His brother a twat, says the game sucks and would rather play an FPS. So if 2 years pass.
Any day his brother comes up to you and says he wants to play 1 star and purchase the game. So 2 days after that get the game, you play a game and you, experienced it 20 wins in a row. He indignantly says that the game is poorly balence and curses all. You a player d- in ICCup is very happy and back to routine losses.
Gave to understand now?
Karuna = brother playing 1 star since early
TL = younger brother who plays the 2 days, compared with at least 2 years, and think have found the holy grail.
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too much theorycrafting going around. i really dont expect the game to be balanaced when it comes out, nor close to it. all i want is a polished product ie no gamebreaking bugs, crashes, or exploits (which seems to be going along well given how much time theyre putting into this). the unit balancing and gameflow changes, that can come along with the patches, which i expect there will be a number of (as it was with brood war before it became so balanced)
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Guys...a lot of the responses in this thread are just plain theorycrafting. You haven't played the game; you just don't know these things...Karune may very well be wrong, or at least underestimating the problem. But he certainly knows more than most of the people in this thread.
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10387 Posts
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST.
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On September 11 2009 11:17 lipebra wrote:
I guess I was not clear. imagine this:
You in 1998 is a fanatic for rts.Assim you purchase 1 star right out of the game. His brother a twat, says the game sucks and would rather play an FPS. So if 2 years pass.
Any day his brother comes up to you and says he wants to play 1 star and purchase the game. So 2 days after that get the game, you play a game and you, experienced it 20 wins in a row. He indignantly says that the game is poorly balence and curses all. You a player d- in ICCup is very happy and back to routine losses.
Gave to understand now?
Karuna = brother playing 1 star since early
TL = younger brother who plays the 2 days, compared with at least 2 years, and think have found the holy grail.
Um, you assumed that SC2 was balanced in your analogy. Which is the point of the discussion. Also, you said that the 20 wins was just an anomaly. Which was also the point of the discussion.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 11 2009 11:06 Santrega wrote:
I would think if you say "the most logical fix", you would actually say what you think is the most logical fix... Did I somehow miss that in your post?
The problem with the queen as stated by some was that since workers can't watch what the Zerg is doing, the zerg has huge informational versatility. The fix suggested (reducing queen range) doesn't actually fix the issue (since zerglings deal with workers just fine anyway. The "logical fix" is to make unit pathing worse, to allow workers to get around more easily. My point is that this fix is obviously not a viable solution for a multitude of reasons, despite the fact that it deals with the immediate problem of the queen's power.
You can't just say "we'll make the queen weaker by toning down some numbers" and be done with it. That's not the issue with the mechanic. Since the queen potentially requires overhauling the zerg early game and revamping the tech tree (especially in conjunction with their current midgame woes), it's not a "minor balance change" and should be dealt with BEFORE the game gets to the beta stage.
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On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST.
And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones
or
The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units.
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10387 Posts
On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units.
Going for a Reaper/phoenix tech build is an autoloss to any type of 1-hatch break play I would think, so doing so is extremely risky and most of the time not rewarding. Not only that, those units are a little bit up the tech tree, so by the time any Reapers/Phoenix come, its assumed that the Zerg player would've had more than enough time to build a Hydra Den and produce Hydras, while still having an excess of drones and a booming economy.
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On September 11 2009 09:53 Archerofaiur wrote:
From Karune
"Scouting is much easier now in StarCraft II for various reasons including earlier Observers (without the prerequisite Observatory building as in the original StarCraft), more mobile units like Reapers/Colossi/Stalkers/Medivacs (more incentive now to build these than original StarCraft since they double up as medics). All of these methods of scouting will be available by mid-game and be useful from then on. Before mid game - SCVs and probes are sufficient to scout. Once Zergling speed gets upgraded, there may be a small window of more difficult scouting, but honestly, that window is much smaller than say playing against a Terran player that blocks you out completely. Additionally, Terran still have scan and Protoss still can go fast air to scout and harass Overlords.
Also mentioned in my previous post, these were just a few ways to deal with the 1 hatch threat. There are definitely ways to build your base without blocking the choke, but I have found blocking it against Zerg as the best way to keep fast Zerglings out with the least amount of attention. "
Karune says scouting is easier in SC2. He says that SCVs and Probes are sufficient to scout early on. Why does this sound like the opposite of what everyone else at PAX said, with the improved Zergling AI pathing/Queen making scouting Zerg much more difficult?
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On September 11 2009 03:33 Chill wrote:
He has no idea what he's talking about (as in he's completely and totally missed the issue) and I will be releasing an article soon addressing this nonsense.
PLEASE hurry. This shit has got to stop. Blizzard dev dodges a question by answering another question, and everyone gets excited about it.
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On September 11 2009 12:21 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. Going for a Reaper/phoenix tech build is an autoloss to any type of 1-hatch break play I would think, so doing so is extremely risky and most of the time not rewarding. Not only that, those units are a little bit up the tech tree, so by the time any Reapers/Phoenix come, its assumed that the Zerg player would've had more than enough time to build a Hydra Den and produce Hydras, while still having an excess of drones and a booming economy.
Nah ah I hit you first! Your dead!
No seriously I had an invisible shield. No your dead not me! MOOOMMMM!!!!
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On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units.
By that time zerg
has overrun you because you had to tech and defend from harrass, where as zerg had to make virtually no sacrifices because of increased production
or
has higher tech than you because you didn't produce enough units to be a threat to him, leaving zerg free to tech and expand like crazy, there for fending off your measly attack with hard counter units
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Maybe scouting with 1 SCV not viable, then how bout sacrifice the economy a bit and send 2 at once?
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Pretty horrible "counter" -.-
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EPT
