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Sanya12364 Posts
On September 11 2009 22:30 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 22:14 TanGeng wrote:
You might be right that Karune has more experience with SC2 directly, but from the way that he's arguing his points, it's very apparently that he lacks RTS game sense. Because of that I would have to say that 10 hours of Hot Bid's time is far more valuable than hundreds of hours of Karune's time. Hot Bid knows what to pay attention to when learning a new RTS whereas Karune bumbles around aimlessly without knowing what to look for. lol this is a stupid comment. You can't back something like that up so why even say it?
I can't back it up? Really? This is a standard way of evaluating people for expert knowledge. Present them a problem and see if they key in on the important factors quickly. I do this all the time when interviewing people for jobs.
As for Hot Bid's time being more valuable than Karune's by orders of magnitude, that is born out by practical experience. Thing about this for a minute. Whose strategic sense for SC II would be stronger: Karune's after 2000 hours or a profession SC player's after 20 hours?
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On September 11 2009 21:41 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 21:36 Amph wrote:On September 11 2009 12:32 emperorchampion wrote:On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. By that time zerg has overrun you because you had to tech and defend from harrass, where as zerg had to make virtually no sacrifices because of increased production or has higher tech than you because you didn't produce enough units to be a threat to him, leaving zerg free to tech and expand like crazy, there for fending off your measly attack with hard counter units u can make a bunker and even if the enemy have 30 ling,he can't break anything, with scv repairing behind the bunker... Why would the zerg make more lings if the terran has successfully walled? He would just mass drones and/or tech.
to stop reapers rush...see the guy that i have quoted, not just my post
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 11 2009 22:44 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 22:30 Kennigit wrote:On September 11 2009 22:14 TanGeng wrote:
You might be right that Karune has more experience with SC2 directly, but from the way that he's arguing his points, it's very apparently that he lacks RTS game sense. Because of that I would have to say that 10 hours of Hot Bid's time is far more valuable than hundreds of hours of Karune's time. Hot Bid knows what to pay attention to when learning a new RTS whereas Karune bumbles around aimlessly without knowing what to look for. lol this is a stupid comment. You can't back something like that up so why even say it? I can't back it up? Really? This is a standard way of evaluating people for expert knowledge. Present them a problem and see if they key in on the important factors quickly. I do this all the time when interviewing people for jobs. As for Hot Bid's time being more valuable than Karune's by orders of magnitude, that is born out by practical experience. Thing about this for a minute. Whose strategic sense for SC II would be stronger: Karune's after 2000 hours or a profession SC player's after 20 hours?
Hotbid is anything but a professional player.He stipulated immediately that he may be wrong and there may exist a solution which we just didn't find. The issue is you are being very absolute when everything discussed here is theory for the most part.
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On September 11 2009 22:44 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 22:30 Kennigit wrote:On September 11 2009 22:14 TanGeng wrote:
You might be right that Karune has more experience with SC2 directly, but from the way that he's arguing his points, it's very apparently that he lacks RTS game sense. Because of that I would have to say that 10 hours of Hot Bid's time is far more valuable than hundreds of hours of Karune's time. Hot Bid knows what to pay attention to when learning a new RTS whereas Karune bumbles around aimlessly without knowing what to look for. lol this is a stupid comment. You can't back something like that up so why even say it? I can't back it up? Really? This is a standard way of evaluating people for expert knowledge. Present them a problem and see if they key in on the important factors quickly. I do this all the time when interviewing people for jobs. As for Hot Bid's time being more valuable than Karune's by orders of magnitude, that is born out by practical experience. Thing about this for a minute. Whose strategic sense for SC II would be stronger: Karune's after 2000 hours or a profession SC player's after 20 hours?
I think it's rather early to decide whether or not Karune has any 'rts game sense' as you put it. Until this issue is actually discussed and not just occasionally alluded to on another forum, I find it even more absurd that you would conclude that Hot Bid playing the game for ten hours is the same or better then Karunes hundreds of hours.
Even further, IIRC, didn't the original 1 hatchery queen thread actually state that they are not calling it imbalanced because there hasn't been anywhere close to the amount of testing necessary to determine that? I will say that it's disappointing that Karune missed the big picture when replying to how you would counter this strategy.
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United States12607 Posts
I'm eagerly anticipating Chill's article.
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On September 11 2009 22:45 Amph wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 21:41 koreasilver wrote:On September 11 2009 21:36 Amph wrote:On September 11 2009 12:32 emperorchampion wrote:On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. By that time zerg has overrun you because you had to tech and defend from harrass, where as zerg had to make virtually no sacrifices because of increased production or has higher tech than you because you didn't produce enough units to be a threat to him, leaving zerg free to tech and expand like crazy, there for fending off your measly attack with hard counter units u can make a bunker and even if the enemy have 30 ling,he can't break anything, with scv repairing behind the bunker... Why would the zerg make more lings if the terran has successfully walled? He would just mass drones and/or tech. to stop reapers rush...see the guy that i have quoted, not just my post
Where did he ever say that he was going to bust through with lings because the opponent was teching? The zerg will theoretically be able to to tech faster than you and kill the reapers with its own tech units while also maintaining a superior economy.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On September 11 2009 22:53 Salv wrote:
I think it's rather early to decide whether or not Karune has any 'rts game sense' as you put it. Until this issue is actually discussed and not just occasionally alluded to on another forum, I find it even more absurd that you would conclude that Hot Bid playing the game for ten hours is the same or better then Karunes hundreds of hours.
Even further, IIRC, didn't the original 1 hatchery queen thread actually state that they are not calling it imbalanced because there hasn't been anywhere close to the amount of testing necessary to determine that? I will say that it's disappointing that Karune missed the big picture when replying to how you would counter this strategy.
Fine, I won't go a far as to say that Karune's opinion is definitely worth less than Hot Bid's at this juncture, but look at his arguments. The sign of someone skilled in a domain of expertise is that he can put all the piece together. You'd expect that person to describe a coherent strategy, mention the key factors, and to identify some key decisions to make - to tie it all together.
Karune does none of that. He's giving out fragmented pieces of knowledge like it's possible to defend against early ling and early hydra and there's units that can be used to scout in mid-game. There is nothing about strategy and nothing to tie the pieces together.
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On September 11 2009 09:06 FabledIntegral wrote:
Am I the only one that thinks it'd be good to fix major issues BEFORE the beta? This way people won't be bitching as much about the viability of something like 1 hatch hydra and instead the little nuances in the game will be magnified that much more.
Less time trying to fix major changes means more time noticing subtle imbalances.
I totally agree. We both have first hand experience with balancing an EA game, and it takes ages to balance a game. SC took years, sure now people are better and it will go faster, but also when people are better they will find more problems as well.
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On September 11 2009 23:29 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 22:53 Salv wrote:
I think it's rather early to decide whether or not Karune has any 'rts game sense' as you put it. Until this issue is actually discussed and not just occasionally alluded to on another forum, I find it even more absurd that you would conclude that Hot Bid playing the game for ten hours is the same or better then Karunes hundreds of hours.
Even further, IIRC, didn't the original 1 hatchery queen thread actually state that they are not calling it imbalanced because there hasn't been anywhere close to the amount of testing necessary to determine that? I will say that it's disappointing that Karune missed the big picture when replying to how you would counter this strategy. Fine, I won't go a far as to say that Karune's opinion is definitely worth less than Hot Bid's at this juncture, but look at his arguments. The sign of someone skilled in a domain of expertise is that he can put all the piece together. You'd expect that person to describe a coherent strategy, mention the key factors, and to identify some key decisions to make - to tie it all together. Karune does none of that. He's giving out fragmented pieces of knowledge like it's possible to defend against early ling and early hydra and there's units that can be used to scout in mid-game. There is nothing about strategy and nothing to tie the pieces together.
I agree that there is enough evidence to make the theory that Karune simply doesn't know what he is talking, but it's also possible he just misunderstood or didn't realize what the actual concern was, or the flaws in his reply.
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To the guy who said that a fast phoenix would kill all the Z's overlords... wouldn't it be just about the same as fast 1gate tech build PvZ in brood war with a fast stargate? Except that it might be necessary to get 2 gateways before tech(delaying it) and that the Zerg is able to tech a lot faster than they would normally because they don't need additional hatcheries, and are also able to gain the economic advantage. It also shouldn't be difficult to time the hydralisk den appropriately to get enough defense against the Phoenix. It'd also be a lot easier to defend because you'd be on 1 hatch instead of 2. It really seems like zvp tech build, with plenty of additional advantages for Zerg(not having to build many defensive units as early as normally because you have so much larvae that you can just build like 7 hydras reactively in the early game).
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On September 11 2009 14:34 CauthonLuck wrote:
I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark?
I quote because this is a really good and simple idea to implement.
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On September 11 2009 14:34 CauthonLuck wrote:
I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark?
I'm guessing that giving the queen an anti air attack is supposed to make ZvZ more interesting. It's hard to make any surprise moves on your opponent when you both have almost perfect scouting for the first half of the game.
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On September 12 2009 00:12 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 14:34 CauthonLuck wrote:
I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark? I'm guessing that giving the queen an anti air attack is supposed to make ZvZ more interesting. It's hard to make any surprise moves on your opponent when you both have almost perfect scouting for the first half of the game.
What does scouting matter when there is only one viable build?
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On September 12 2009 00:24 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 00:12 Luddite wrote:On September 11 2009 14:34 CauthonLuck wrote:
I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark? I'm guessing that giving the queen an anti air attack is supposed to make ZvZ more interesting. It's hard to make any surprise moves on your opponent when you both have almost perfect scouting for the first half of the game. What does scouting matter when there is only one viable build?
To see follow-up, plus whether enemy is pumping eco or making units. If you attack when he is making units then he will probably have more units than you - cause he doesn't have to care about reinforcing time. But if he pumps eco and you won't scour it - he will be ahead obviously
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On September 12 2009 00:57 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 00:24 Shikyo wrote:On September 12 2009 00:12 Luddite wrote:On September 11 2009 14:34 CauthonLuck wrote:
I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark? I'm guessing that giving the queen an anti air attack is supposed to make ZvZ more interesting. It's hard to make any surprise moves on your opponent when you both have almost perfect scouting for the first half of the game. What does scouting matter when there is only one viable build? To see follow-up, plus whether enemy is pumping eco or making units. If you attack when he is making units then he will probably have more units than you - cause he doesn't have to care about reinforcing time. But if he pumps eco and you won't scour it - he will be ahead obviously
See but thats such a simplified way of looking at it. It doesnt take into account that my siege tanks can chew through large groups of units or the effect of proton charge or the impact of cliffs on base raiding.
You are looking at one part of SC2 and putting it into the SC1 system. Then your concluding that because it would have this effect in the 2009 SC1 metagame that it will be the same for SC2.
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On September 12 2009 00:24 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 00:12 Luddite wrote:On September 11 2009 14:34 CauthonLuck wrote:
I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark? I'm guessing that giving the queen an anti air attack is supposed to make ZvZ more interesting. It's hard to make any surprise moves on your opponent when you both have almost perfect scouting for the first half of the game. What does scouting matter when there is only one viable build?
I assure you, there will never be just one viable build. If that was the case, you'd be putting SC2 at the level of other mindless RTS games' multiplayer modes. Did you ever play Dune 2 multiplayer? It sucked. There was one viable build- rush to Quad tanks, and tear down the enemy base. Whoever did so faster and more efficiently won. Do you think any SC2 matchup will be that mindless? If so, you have very little faith in game.
What I mean is: Okay, let's say 1-hatch queen is dominant in ZvZ. Well, what comes after that? Do you mass units? Do you expand? Will it depend on the map? Which units do you make? What tech do you pursue?
Even if the initial build is standardized, that doesn't mean "there is only one viable build" and scouting is irrelevant.
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On September 12 2009 00:57 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 00:24 Shikyo wrote:On September 12 2009 00:12 Luddite wrote:On September 11 2009 14:34 CauthonLuck wrote:
I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark? I'm guessing that giving the queen an anti air attack is supposed to make ZvZ more interesting. It's hard to make any surprise moves on your opponent when you both have almost perfect scouting for the first half of the game. What does scouting matter when there is only one viable build? To see follow-up, plus whether enemy is pumping eco or making units. If you attack when he is making units then he will probably have more units than you - cause he doesn't have to care about reinforcing time. But if he pumps eco and you won't scour it - he will be ahead obviously
Well my point was... zvz will only have one viable build, so how will it be more interesting? Maybe they'll make one more drone than you, I guess that's an interesting match-up...
EDIT: An expansion would most likely be doomed to failure because of the 1 hatch queen. If they mass lings, you can barely make any more drones yourself. It's just mass ling on mass ling, any attempt at expanding would be destroyed by 7 larvae of lings or whatever. Or maybe I'm wrong and something interesting is found out...
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ZvZ is a good reason why blizz should bring back roaches to tier 1
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Now, if Reapers had spider mines, that would make 1hatch break a bit trickier.
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I'm not sure how people are downplaying this. It's nothing like any strategy we've seen in SC, and if there were such a thing the game wouldn't even be viable competitively. Any opening which allows for both a ridiculously strong early break or a ridiculously strong economy is simply broken. That's like opening 9pool with somehow having the option to get the economy of a 12hatch if your lings scout a safe build they can't break, but still having those early lings to deny scouting.
This isn't like saying 'ultralisks are too powerful' - where you will need significant beta testing to prove/change anything. You don't need months of beta testing to see that an idea like this creates serious problems in overall game strategy and balance.
In balanced RTS games, openings have trade-offs. What is the trade-off here?
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EPT
