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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On September 12 2009 03:25 QibingZero wrote: In balanced RTS games, openings have trade-offs. What is the trade-off here? "Zerg is forced to be at a defensive if they did do the 1hatch queen strategy (key point being the 1 hatch or late expand)." -Karune | ||
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On September 12 2009 03:40 Tsagacity wrote: Huh? A lot here suggests you can be pretty offensive off a 1hatch queen build. Maybe terran/toss are supposed to get units earlier than SC1? It is things like that which would easily get missed by any old time sc player. | ||
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
On September 12 2009 03:54 Klockan3 wrote: Except karune seems to also suggest walling off and waiting until mid-game to pressure a zerg with something like reapers or banshees.Maybe terran/toss are supposed to get units earlier than SC1? It is things like that which would easily get missed by any old time sc player. The closest he came to an answer is in his follow-up saying it's a lot easier to scout because it's easier to tech to observers etc. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On September 12 2009 03:30 Archerofaiur wrote: "Zerg is forced to be at a defensive if they did do the 1hatch queen strategy (key point being the 1 hatch or late expand)." -Karune That's most likely totally false. Why are you forced to be defensive if you have the economic advantage and the potential army advantage, not to mention the production advantage and scouting advantage? EDIT: Z has so many larvae that he can just mass drones against the 2gate while making barely enough lings to defend against the zealots and with his queen helping as well on top of the ramp and with the travel time and with the Z being able to pump drones 4 times faster than the Protoss... Z can soon switch into pure ling and expand and have way better economy while having an army advantage, or P can play defensively and let Z mass drones and lose economically again... It's quite crazy how Z can make what, 5 drones in the time the P can make one probe? It doesnt even take 30 seconds for Z to be way ahead. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5527 Posts
On September 11 2009 23:43 Salv wrote: I agree that there is enough evidence to make the theory that Karune simply doesn't know what he is talking, but it's also possible he just misunderstood or didn't realize what the actual concern was, or the flaws in his reply. I pointed them out to him. He failed to answer. ;/ | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On September 11 2009 21:57 Archerofaiur wrote: Its always nice being called a troll by someone with 47 posts. [1] Anyway if your wondering why I havnt responded to some of his comments its because I havnt played the game to know the exact specifics. [2] I am relying on information from people who have played the game. [3] I have theories. For instance you think hes mass drones and you tech reapers and you get there and see that he has actually massed hydras. [4] So you do what economic damage you can and when he comes at your base you have bunkers and siege tanks ready. And as soon as the hydras leave to attack you you hit his hatchery with your reapers. [5] Do I know exactly how it works? No this is all theorycrafting. But I do know that Karune has spent infinetly more time with SC2 than anyone else in this debate. And thats not a slight against Hot_Bid or Chill. I think they have valuble points that should be looked at. If I had to guess Id say the answer probably lies somewhere between Karune and Hot_Bid. [6] [1] Yeah, there are definitely no high post-count trolls. Those don't exist on TL. I take it back, though. I think you are just misunderstanding the issue, and your way of expressing your disagreement is just immature and makes it look worse than it actually is. [2] That definitely doesn't stop you from commenting on magical timings where you somehow tech both reapers and siege tanks before Zerg has a significant hydra force. But no, this isn't a real answer. You didn't even read the part that was quoted so you don't even understand what I am saying here - you are just responding by taking bits and pieces of others' sentences, applying selective semantics and sophistry, and then typing it all out in a neat format. Let's look again at that post you responded to first. This is important because you have missed the most central issue of the discussion. + Show Spoiler [This is what you saw and your response.] + On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote: And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. + Show Spoiler [This is what you didn't see.] + On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote: And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. + Show Spoiler [Together they make an important thought.] + On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote: And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. My point is that you are not even reading the discussions that you make yourself a part of - you simply see a series of words that harms your worldview and selectively attack the posts that contain them. [3] Like Hot_Bid and other TL staff? If you're gonna quote someone, at least quote David Kim who has been pretty much universally acknowledged (amongst Blizzard) as the most skillful player that Blizzard has put on SC2. [4] This is the kind of situation that is important to this discussion. First off, you are aiming for reapers because you are guessing that he will try to power drones. Already, you've conceded a huge advantage to the Zerg because he can deny scouting (zergling pathing + creep). So you don't know whether to zig or zag, and you have an immediate chance to pick a suboptimal choice (this is much like Protoss early game vs. Zerg in SC). [5] So you're going for tanks and reapers at the same time? This is almost like the Blizzard Special in that you are spreading yourself thin here. Also the timing doesn't work out. Reapers cost twice as much gas as hydras (50 gas per reaper). A compound costs 50 gas. A factory costs 100. A tech lab (for siege mode which costs 100) costs another 50, and a tank costs 150. You'll probably need Stim too in order to have your marines be useful, so that's another 100 gas. Altogether, you need 550 gas to go this route (this doesn't include the cost of the squad of Reapers). With 550 gas, the Zerg can make a hydra den (50) and can build (500/25) 20 hydralisks. For every Reaper you build, he can also build 2 hydralisks. So the Zerg has a sizeable army of hydras with a ling backup, and you have a tank and some marines (which his lings can closely equal given his ability to scout). That's assuming that the Zerg doesn't attack before siege mode is done. It also assumes that your Reapers will have an unscouted exit from your base + an unscouted entrance to his base. This is a pretty grim outlook altogether. The reason this build doesn't give you the upper hand is the Zerg's ability to scout you early on and your inability to scout him early on. And after all that, you have to transition to something out of this Reaper/tank build. [6] Theorycrafting is more like saying a build will beat another build given competent players and certain circumstances (like I just did above). The discussion at hand is about fundamental game mechanics that are possibly imbalanced. There are two issues in this discussion that present the problem: 1. The queen more than doubles Zerg production capability. 2. Scouting a Zerg's base with a worker or any early-tier unit is extremely difficult because of creep speed. Part 1 makes part 2 extremely painful. If you could scout the zerg perfectly, you could possibly match him and play on an even playing field. Because you can't scout him, you are made to generalize your build (your build lacks optimization that it could have had) or guess or some combination. Part 1 makes it so that he can push his scouting advantage even further by perfectly countering you with the least possible time and almost no constraint on what he has to build at a certain time. | ||
TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
On September 12 2009 07:53 DefMatrixUltra wrote: [1] Yeah, there are definitely no high post-count trolls. Those don't exist on TL. I take it back, though. I think you are just misunderstanding the issue, and your way of expressing your disagreement is just immature and makes it look worse than it actually is. You've really been trolled into making such a giant post, but nice summary of arguments. The proposed T & P counters to Z only work if the player were given a map hack. Hence Hot Bid's frequent use of "coin toss," but it sounds like a series of unfair coin tosses to me. | ||
Chill
Calgary25977 Posts
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On September 12 2009 07:53 DefMatrixUltra wrote: [1] Yeah, there are definitely no high post-count trolls. Those don't exist on TL. I take it back, though. I think you are just misunderstanding the issue, and your way of expressing your disagreement is just immature and makes it look worse than it actually is. [2] That definitely doesn't stop you from commenting on magical timings where you somehow tech both reapers and siege tanks before Zerg has a significant hydra force. But no, this isn't a real answer. You didn't even read the part that was quoted so you don't even understand what I am saying here - you are just responding by taking bits and pieces of others' sentences, applying selective semantics and sophistry, and then typing it all out in a neat format. Let's look again at that post you responded to first. This is important because you have missed the most central issue of the discussion. + Show Spoiler [This is what you saw and your response.] + On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote: And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. + Show Spoiler [This is what you didn't see.] + On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote: And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. + Show Spoiler [Together they make an important thought.] + On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote: And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. My point is that you are not even reading the discussions that you make yourself a part of - you simply see a series of words that harms your worldview and selectively attack the posts that contain them. [3] Like Hot_Bid and other TL staff? If you're gonna quote someone, at least quote David Kim who has been pretty much universally acknowledged (amongst Blizzard) as the most skillful player that Blizzard has put on SC2. [4] This is the kind of situation that is important to this discussion. First off, you are aiming for reapers because you are guessing that he will try to power drones. Already, you've conceded a huge advantage to the Zerg because he can deny scouting (zergling pathing + creep). So you don't know whether to zig or zag, and you have an immediate chance to pick a suboptimal choice (this is much like Protoss early game vs. Zerg in SC). [5] So you're going for tanks and reapers at the same time? This is almost like the Blizzard Special in that you are spreading yourself thin here. Also the timing doesn't work out. Reapers cost twice as much gas as hydras (50 gas per reaper). A compound costs 50 gas. A factory costs 100. A tech lab (for siege mode which costs 100) costs another 50, and a tank costs 150. You'll probably need Stim too in order to have your marines be useful, so that's another 100 gas. Altogether, you need 550 gas to go this route (this doesn't include the cost of the squad of Reapers). With 550 gas, the Zerg can make a hydra den (50) and can build (500/25) 20 hydralisks. For every Reaper you build, he can also build 2 hydralisks. So the Zerg has a sizeable army of hydras with a ling backup, and you have a tank and some marines (which his lings can closely equal given his ability to scout). That's assuming that the Zerg doesn't attack before siege mode is done. It also assumes that your Reapers will have an unscouted exit from your base + an unscouted entrance to his base. This is a pretty grim outlook altogether. The reason this build doesn't give you the upper hand is the Zerg's ability to scout you early on and your inability to scout him early on. And after all that, you have to transition to something out of this Reaper/tank build. [6] Theorycrafting is more like saying a build will beat another build given competent players and certain circumstances (like I just did above). The discussion at hand is about fundamental game mechanics that are possibly imbalanced. There are two issues in this discussion that present the problem: 1. The queen more than doubles Zerg production capability. 2. Scouting a Zerg's base with a worker or any early-tier unit is extremely difficult because of creep speed. Part 1 makes part 2 extremely painful. If you could scout the zerg perfectly, you could possibly match him and play on an even playing field. Because you can't scout him, you are made to generalize your build (your build lacks optimization that it could have had) or guess or some combination. Part 1 makes it so that he can push his scouting advantage even further by perfectly countering you with the least possible time and almost no constraint on what he has to build at a certain time. Oh boy. Ok ill keep this as simple as possible since it seems like your looking for a fight. A fight I really have no dogs in. I havnt played SC2. My reaper and phoenix comment, thats what Karune said. I havnt used reapers to defeat 1 hatch queen, he does. Now I cant tell you how it works but I trust on some level it does work or Karune would not have said it. I actually shouldnt have said my suggestion about teching to siege tanks since that was not information I had. I was trying to offer a possible situation since you had questions about how this would work. Now lets talk about the real issue thats getting people riled up. We have two seemingly contradicting opinions from TL representatives and from the SC2 community manager. On one hand you have people who have experience playing Starcraft from a professional perspective. On the other hand you have a guy who works for Blizzard and has played more SC2 than anyone else in this debate. Each party has a certain sense of authority from their background and current position. And it seems like they disagree. So who do we trust? Well one must be right and the other must be completly wrong, right? So you cast your chips on one side or the other and start calling the other side retarded. They arnt. Hot-Bid is not stupid. Karune knows what the zerg economy is like. People need to calm down. For me personally, even if I played at Blizzcon and won with a build over and over I still would not automatically assume I know more than Blizzard. But I would do exactly what Chill and Hot-Bid have done and bring it to the notice of the community. | ||
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BleuNuit
Canada44 Posts
On September 11 2009 23:01 JWD wrote: I'm eagerly anticipating Chill's article. | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27139 Posts
Try the front page. | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On September 12 2009 11:19 Archerofaiur wrote: Now lets talk about the real issue thats getting people riled up. We have two seemingly contradicting opinions from TL representatives and from the SC2 community manager. On one hand you have people who have experience playing Starcraft from a professional perspective. On the other hand you have a guy who works for Blizzard and has played more SC2 than anyone else in this debate. Each party has a certain sense of authority from their background and current position. And it seems like they disagree. So who do we trust? [1] Well one must be right and the other must be completly wrong, right? So you cast your chips on one side or the other and start calling the other side retarded. They arnt. Hot-Bid is not stupid. Karune knows what the zerg economy is like. People need to calm down. [2] [1] Matters are not settled on credentials, they are settled on merits. Even if Hot_Bid was the noobiest noob to ever play SC2 from now until the end of the universe, his arguments could still be 100% spot-on - people would just tend to listen less to them. It's not about who anyone trusts. [2] The larva mechanic is either too powerful or it isn't. This has nothing to do with whose side anyone is on or which people are on that side. This is a clear-cut binary decision that must be made by someone at Blizzard. The argument you're trying to use to divide people into 2 groups is actually 2 different arguments. Karune is saying "yeah, I can beat this rush build I've seen Zerg do with 1 hatch queen" and Hot_Bid is saying "1 hatch queen allows too diverse and too powerful responses to other strategies in general." Not even the same topic of discussion. This isn't even an issue of implementation or something like that. People that understand the nature of RTSs and even the nature of strategy games in general will be able to understand that this mechanic certainly could be overpowered, depending on the exact numbers. Very good arguments have been put forth for this case, and a very poor response (that doesn't directly address the actual issues [the scouting + production increase]) that simply outlines how to defeat a particular build using the mechanic. The mechanic itself is more general than the build that Karune was talking about. Yes, maybe his build does counter that build very well. That's all well and good. But there are three options the Zerg has here, none of which the Terran can scout. The Zerg can go full eco, spamming drones. He can also go full production, spamming units. He can also do mix of the two. The Zerg's ability to adapt like this is a direct consequence of the larva mechanic - it is much more general than some particular rush build that Karune imagined when he was speaking on the topic. | ||
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Another_Pro
United States66 Posts
yes? | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
On September 12 2009 14:21 Another_Pro wrote: I Think maybe if creep speed was disabled until lair tech or something, then scouting would be easier. That plus possibly make the queen melee attack. That would force ling speed earlier and you would be able to scout a little bit longer until ling speed. yes? Yayyyy brood war again? | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Another_Pro
United States66 Posts
exactly  | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote: [1] Matters are not settled on credentials, they are settled on merits. Even if Hot_Bid was the noobiest noob to ever play SC2 from now until the end of the universe, his arguments could still be 100% spot-on - people would just tend to listen less to them. It's not about who anyone trusts. What is your arguement here? That Karunes comments dont have merit? On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote: [2] The larva mechanic is either too powerful or it isn't. This has nothing to do with whose side anyone is on or which people are on that side. This is a clear-cut binary decision that must be made by someone at Blizzard. The argument you're trying to use to divide people into 2 groups is actually 2 different arguments. Karune is saying "yeah, I can beat this rush build I've seen Zerg do with 1 hatch queen" and Hot_Bid is saying "1 hatch queen allows too diverse and too powerful responses to other strategies in general." Not even the same topic of discussion. Just for a second consider this posibility. 1) 1 hatch queen allows for incredibly diverse and powerful responces (It does deny scouting, it does give econ or production boosts) and 2) You can still beat it using the other races incredibly diverese and powerful responces Thats why I said that they are apparently contradictory. They appear to be but they may not be. I dont know since I cant speak for Karune. On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote: The mechanic itself is more general than the build that Karune was talking about. Yes, maybe his build does counter that build very well. That's all well and good. But there are three options the Zerg has here, none of which the Terran can scout. The Zerg can go full eco, spamming drones. He can also go full production, spamming units. He can also do mix of the two. The Zerg's ability to adapt like this is a direct consequence of the larva mechanic - it is much more general than some particular rush build that Karune imagined when he was speaking on the topic. Zatic recently confirmed that if you press the zerg you force them to make units. You effectively force their hand by keeping the pressure on. Also about the scouting issue Karune says that its not much different from zerg not being able to see inside a terran base. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote: [1] Matters are not settled on credentials, they are settled on merits. Even if Hot_Bid was the noobiest noob to ever play SC2 from now until the end of the universe, his arguments could still be 100% spot-on - people would just tend to listen less to them. It's not about who anyone trusts. Merits cannot be fully concluded if you have incomplete information. The level of information that each party has is at such a huge gap. Therefore I don't think anyone here is in a position to determine whether HotBid is 100% spot on or not. If you want the clear cut no bullshit version: get off your high horses. It's awesome to debate this and it should be debated, but as ArcherofAiur says please realize that karune and the other folks at blizzard have so much more know-how on SC2 than you do. I am not saying I agree with either party, I'm saying that you shouldn't be so sure of yourself when you have so much less knowledge and experience on the topic than they do. | ||
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