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Chill
Calgary25977 Posts
On September 11 2009 12:29 DefMatrixUltra wrote: PLEASE hurry. This shit has got to stop. Blizzard dev dodges a question by answering another question, and everyone gets excited about it. It's written, but after this round of discussion I'm really trying to solidify my argument. Should be released tomorrow. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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RyanS
United States620 Posts
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote: And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. Yeah, that might possibly work somehow... if you knew that he was powering drones instead of building a huge army. That's the point of the discussion. I find it harder and harder to believe you are not a troll. In all of your comments on the subject, you ignore pieces of the puzzle that disagree with what you are saying, and you cherry-pick pieces of others' arguments to disagree with them. Look at the post that you quoted up here and see if you can't find the part that you ignored/didn't respond to at all - the part of the post which states the crux of the issue. | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
On September 11 2009 13:03 Archerofaiur wrote: I think Chill and Karune should have a debate. A game, or better yet a BO3 series would be far more entertaining and informative. + Show Spoiler + That said, Chill's side of the story makes MUCH more sense to me. I have not played the game so yes, this is theorycraft based on people's feedback, vods and unit stats available online. At any rate, here's my 5 step summary: 1. After getting a spawning pool zergs can make a queen for 100 minerals, which takes 25 seconds. 2. The queen "injection" of 4 extra larvae every time it gets 25 energy effectively turns one hatch into the equivalent of 2.5 hatches. 3. 2.5 hatches >>> anything P or T can throw at them in both unit and/or drone production, or anything in between. 4. Zerg also has a big early scouting advantage and can switch seamlessly between unit and/or drone production, as needed. 5. GG. Zerg has no reason to ever use a different BO (for example a 2 hatch opening would be slower in every way). If T or P go for defense, as suggested by Karune, Z can double or triple expand and saturate bases very fast. Each new hatchery gets another queen for100 minerals. Simply taking natural expo = equivalent of 5 hatcheries for very little resources. | ||
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CauthonLuck
United States93 Posts
On September 11 2009 09:03 Catch]22 wrote: Except people tried it against Karune, and he was undefeated. The best zerg I saw Karune play against was a loud, talkative fellow who expressed many opinions on vanilla starcraft while in line. Opinions such as: Carriers were unbeatable except by ghosts, who were way too good because of lockdown. 3 Zealots were all you needed to keep your opponent busy while you got a mass of carriers. The computer was imbalanced in starcraft because it microed perfectly. I dare say he wasn't hard pressed to run rampant over the Pax zergs. I wish I had seen him go up against one of the TL readers who at least understood the theory behind 1hatQ. I have no doubt that he still would have crushed us due to his superior skill and our lack of sc2 experience but at least we'd have been able to see some of his theories in action, or confirm the imbalance if he happened to have a tough match against a sc2 newbie using the build. The few of us who had read the theory behind why 1hatQ was so powerful mostly got matched up against the beta-key pinata Cydra. ^ ^ My friend who ended up getting a key later in the day abusing the build as well had a simple suggestion about how to tone down zerg's early game while still allowing them to get full use out of inject-larvae mid-late game where they are supposedly weak. Inject-Larvae provides: 2 larvae at Hatchery tech 3 larvae at Lair tech 4 larvae at Hive tech I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark? With hydras at tier 1 now, there is no need for the queen to be an anti-air unit until Lair tech, and the removal of it's ranged attack until Lair would at least slightly lessen zerg's anti-scouting abilities early game. I'm fairly certain it's ranged attack is just an archaic necessity of when zerg had no anti-air until Lair. | ||
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Konni
Germany3044 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On September 11 2009 14:47 Konni wrote: The larva spawn rate was nerfed in SC1 too. In early builds (pre 1.04 I think, maybe up until 1.08) the spawn rate was much higher. Seems like they had the same problems with SC1. That would be easily fixed, but the biggest issue is how 1 Queen + 6 lings shut down scouting really early and how T/P are forced to play in the dark until mid-game, which by then are probably behind. Six zerglings will shut down any further scouting past the initial worker, apparently due to insanely good pathfinding. The real solution I think lies in being able to allow the worker survive to the point where T/P can deduce what the Zerg is doing, like in PvZ. Slow down the speed of the zergling so that the worker can stay alive scouting in the Zerg's base off the creep, but not so much where the worker runs complete circles around the Zerglings. Normal zerglings do not need to be very quick anyways, since the speed upgrade is guaranteed to be upgarded soon anyways. | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
On September 11 2009 14:34 CauthonLuck wrote: The best zerg I saw Karune play against was a loud, talkative fellow who expressed many opinions on vanilla starcraft while in line. Opinions such as: Carriers were unbeatable except by ghosts, who were way too good because of lockdown. 3 Zealots were all you needed to keep your opponent busy while you got a mass of carriers. The computer was imbalanced in starcraft because it microed perfectly. I dare say he wasn't hard pressed to run rampant over the Pax zergs. I wish I had seen him go up against one of the TL readers who at least understood the theory behind 1hatQ. I have no doubt that he still would have crushed us due to his superior skill and our lack of sc2 experience but at least we'd have been able to see some of his theories in action, or confirm the imbalance if he happened to have a tough match against a sc2 newbie using the build. The few of us who had read the theory behind why 1hatQ was so powerful mostly got matched up against the beta-key pinata Cydra. ^ ^ My friend who ended up getting a key later in the day abusing the build as well had a simple suggestion about how to tone down zerg's early game while still allowing them to get full use out of inject-larvae mid-late game where they are supposedly weak. Inject-Larvae provides: 2 larvae at Hatchery tech 3 larvae at Lair tech 4 larvae at Hive tech I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark? With hydras at tier 1 now, there is no need for the queen to be an anti-air unit until Lair tech, and the removal of it's ranged attack until Lair would at least slightly lessen zerg's anti-scouting abilities early game. I'm fairly certain it's ranged attack is just an archaic necessity of when zerg had no anti-air until Lair. That guy was horrible and we were all laughing at him and his feeble attempts at playing. Well him and super mullet boy who played with 1 hand and didn't think it odd... The thing we were able to see was zergs using it vs Bob (who I think is Cydra) who admitted to be a lot worse then Karune, and still getting stomped every time. I think it's just similar to old BW, where strats everyone thought were OP got countered hard by simply knowing the game and the timings a bit better. Just give it time... edit: on a side note, which of the guys was your friend? There were 4 people to win keys that day: 1- Goatarope who was wearing a SKT1 jersey signed by Bisu who won vs the zerg in a ling rush 2- another dude who beat the zerg with a ling rush 3- Guy who said he was C+ who beat the toss who only played 1 game 4- Myself, I have fading red hair and beat the terran in a long game ending with ultras | ||
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Amph
Italy31 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
ugh - It's like people don't understand smart warfare. The threat of attacking and what needs to be done to respond to that threat is more important than the actual attack. Anyways, while TL might not have such a good understanding the strategic aspects of SC2, it's apparent the SC2 devs and admins understand it even less. Please release your article Chill. | ||
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Amph
Italy31 Posts
On September 11 2009 12:32 emperorchampion wrote: By that time zerg has overrun you because you had to tech and defend from harrass, where as zerg had to make virtually no sacrifices because of increased production or has higher tech than you because you didn't produce enough units to be a threat to him, leaving zerg free to tech and expand like crazy, there for fending off your measly attack with hard counter units u can make a bunker and even if the enemy have 30 ling,he can't break anything, with scv repairing behind the bunker... | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On September 11 2009 13:03 Archerofaiur wrote: I think Chill and Karune should have a debate. Agreed. From what I've read, I'm pretty certain Karune knows the 1-hatch queen build well and is able to counter it well enough. He just hasn't been able to convince TL.net as to how exactly you do it, and why it works. For instance, he says that scouting really isn't a big deal because soon after your first scouting probe dies, you can have an air unit (observer or phoenix) in the Zerg's base. Are those timings right? If they are, then scouting may not be as hard as some make it out to be, in which case you're not committed to a coin flip. Karune also places a lot of importance on Disruptors and how the Protoss micro'es them- something that hasn't been discussed at length on this site, and partly (IMO) because Force Field is an ability you need to get a feel for by playing a lot of games, otherwise you won't really know its impact. Due to the fact that Karune plays a lot of SC2 and can is able to fight against a 1-hatch queen build well enough (whether executed by fans or other Blizzard staff members), I believe him when he says that T and P are not at a significant disadvantage against a Zerg that goes for a 1-hatch queen strat. Due to the fact that, unlike Chill, Karune doesn't moderate a strategy forum on a site like TL.net, I don't think Karune can succinctly explain as well and in as much detail as we'd like the nuances of early and midgame play vs. a 1-hatch queen build. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On September 11 2009 21:36 Amph wrote: u can make a bunker and even if the enemy have 30 ling,he can't break anything, with scv repairing behind the bunker... Why would the zerg make more lings if the terran has successfully walled? He would just mass drones and/or tech. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On September 11 2009 13:47 DefMatrixUltra wrote: Yeah, that might possibly work somehow... if you knew that he was powering drones instead of building a huge army. That's the point of the discussion. I find it harder and harder to believe you are not a troll. In all of your comments on the subject, you ignore pieces of the puzzle that disagree with what you are saying, and you cherry-pick pieces of others' arguments to disagree with them. Look at the post that you quoted up here and see if you can't find the part that you ignored/didn't respond to at all - the part of the post which states the crux of the issue. Its always nice being called a troll by someone with 47 posts. Anyway if your wondering why I havnt responded to some of his comments its because I havnt played the game to know the exact specifics. I am relying on information from people who have played the game. I have theories. For instance you think hes mass drones and you tech reapers and you get there and see that he has actually massed hydras. So you do what economic damage you can and when he comes at your base you have bunkers and siege tanks ready. And as soon as the hydras leave to attack you you hit his hatchery with your reapers. Do I know exactly how it works? No this is all theorycrafting. But I do know that Karune has spent infinetly more time with SC2 than anyone else in this debate. And thats not a slight against Hot_Bid or Chill. I think they have valuble points that should be looked at. If I had to guess Id say the answer probably lies somewhere between Karune and Hot_Bid. | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
On September 11 2009 21:57 Archerofaiur wrote: Do I know exactly how it works? No this is all theorycrafting. But I do know that Karune has spent infinetly more time with SC2 than anyone else in this debate. And thats not a slight against Hot_Bid or Chill. I think they have valuble points that should be looked at. If I had to guess Id say the answer probably lies somewhere between Karune and Hot_Bid. You might be right that Karune has more experience with SC2 directly, but from the way that he's arguing his points, it's very apparently that he lacks RTS game sense. Because of that I would have to say that 10 hours of Hot Bid's time is far more valuable than hundreds of hours of Karune's time. Hot Bid knows what to pay attention to when learning a new RTS whereas Karune bumbles around aimlessly without knowing what to look for. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
For all we know, this issue might be as silly as someone coming here after playing SC for a week, and saying 5 pool is unbeatable. No, the situation is not directly comparable, but the point I'm making is that we simply do not know yet - it could be a total non-issue. Until beta we really will not be able to say for sure, so I wish people would be a little more respectful of the people working there. I don't know if Karune reads TL, but other Blizzard employees do, so try to keep that in mind when posting, please? | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 11 2009 22:14 TanGeng wrote: You might be right that Karune has more experience with SC2 directly, but from the way that he's arguing his points, it's very apparently that he lacks RTS game sense. Because of that I would have to say that 10 hours of Hot Bid's time is far more valuable than hundreds of hours of Karune's time. Hot Bid knows what to pay attention to when learning a new RTS whereas Karune bumbles around aimlessly without knowing what to look for. lol this is a stupid comment. You can't back something like that up so why even say it? | ||
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