|
I'm not saying you guys shouldnt talk about this.. I'm just saying it makes little sense for blizzard to fix this stuff until after beta starts.
It's possible the guys at PAX and blizzcon missed some things that could be used to counter everything done with the zerg 1-hatch. Also, I think all of you could do a much better job critiquing and coming up with real solutions if you were free to play the game continuously for more than 1-2 days. I say talk away, and enjoy the conversations... But don't expect blizzard to answer questions based on perceived imbalances when everything is subject to change and should change only after beta starts.
I'm just saying don't expect the little things to be balanced until after beta, and I consider this a little thing. Yes, it is sounding like its OP. However, you can make changes such as making larvae injection spawn only 2 or 3 larva at a time, or change how much energy is required to do this, or possibly add increased cost to units that come from these special larva making the larva different again. Theres a lot that can be done about this, and I think a lot of it is easy to add into the game. I think the best way to find the best fixes is by changing things during beta, and seeing what those changes do and how they effect the game. It's pretty hard to test the changes you make if you don't actually have many people doing the testing.
|
I don't think it's finding the counter that's the problem, it's knowing what to counter.
Finding out how to scout seems to be the problem. It sounds like you need to hide 4 workers around the map near the start of the game or something =/
Thus hot_bid's constant use of the words "coin flip."
|
Although I understand the main point of the discussion and absolutely agree that it is a legitimate concern, there is something I cannot figure out at the moment.
If Zerg is powering Drones, how exactly does he fend off early harass (not rush,harass)? I mean if P/T does not feel any pressure at the front, wouldn`t that prompt him to try and put pressure on the Z instead? Even with more larva, the basic exchange nature of Larvae of not being able to pump economy while producing units still applies and Zerg will have to eventually expand (if not for any other reason, then beacuse he reached full saturation in his original base).
|
On September 11 2009 06:21 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 04:09 Santrega wrote:On September 11 2009 04:02 TheYango wrote:
There's no way they could address the issue of balance if they aren't even looking at it from the right angle. The only problem with that is, they arent looking to address the issue of balance unless its a huge problem. If it isnt painfully obvious, it doesnt need to be fixed until after beta comes out. If you go fixing things now before people really have a chance to test it, you are just going to end up re-fixing everything, which is basically both a waste of time and resources, and also not very smart. They only need to make sure the core of the game is balanced before beta, as in the only thing left is tweaking of unit attributes, build times, and cost. I believe most of the problems with zerg found in that article can be fixed with minor tweaks, and really don't require a response, nor any further development time before beta. If people who have never played SC2 before are ale to beat some of the best Blizzard players, then the build is clearly OP. That's what happened at PAX.
Except people tried it against Karune, and he was undefeated.
|
i can see a lot of mind games zerg can play
zerg can safely mass a few drones and have lings ready for a backstab. which would make the T/P have to stay at base since their armies are less mobile.
somebody said units should move faster downhill and slower uphill.
go outside and try running down a ramp. you'll notice its harder to run down than up so going up/down ramps would be slow both ways.
|
Am I the only one that thinks it'd be good to fix major issues BEFORE the beta? This way people won't be bitching as much about the viability of something like 1 hatch hydra and instead the little nuances in the game will be magnified that much more.
Less time trying to fix major changes means more time noticing subtle imbalances.
|
Ok here is just one example of my problem with that thread...
Couple that with the better chase AI and ranged Queen attack, the enemy scout almost always dies before they can see what my extra 4 larvae spawn.
Can't they see what buildings you have? Why do they need to see what your larva spawn... If you have a den, or a pool, doesnt that give its own clue to what you are building..
Or is the queen standing at the entrance waiting for workers to come in and kills them before they can see what buildings you have? Also, can't blizzard just change how effective the queen is against workers... :-/ I just dont see why this is a huge issue, even the author of that article felt it may not be so OP, and maybe there is something they missed...
Am I the only one that thinks it'd be good to fix major issues BEFORE the beta? This way people won't be bitching as much about the viability of something like 1 hatch hydra and instead the little nuances in the game will be magnified that much more.
Less time trying to fix major changes means more time noticing subtle imbalances.
The only thing I want to know is what makes this a major issue?
|
On September 11 2009 09:06 Santrega wrote:Ok here is just one example of my problem with that thread... Show nested quote +Couple that with the better chase AI and ranged Queen attack, the enemy scout almost always dies before they can see what my extra 4 larvae spawn. Can't they see what buildings you have? Why do they need to see what your larva spawn... If you have a den, or a pool, doesnt that give its own clue to what you are building... How does seeing an opponents spawning pool help you at all with scouting? I think it's safe to assume every zerg is going to make a spawning pool.
The idea is spawning pool -> 6 lings, and then you're in the dark. At this point he might be massing lings, going for hydras, or powering on econ. It's entirely possible for you to counter any of those options, but very difficult for you to know which one he's doing.
|
The only thing I want to know is what makes this a major issue?
Wow, you only have 200 posts to choose from on that one 
|
Sanya12364 Posts
On September 11 2009 09:06 Santrega wrote:Ok here is just one example of my problem with that thread... Show nested quote +Couple that with the better chase AI and ranged Queen attack, the enemy scout almost always dies before they can see what my extra 4 larvae spawn. Can't they see what buildings you have? Why do they need to see what your larva spawn... If you have a den, or a pool, doesnt that give its own clue to what you are building.. Or is the queen standing at the entrance waiting for workers to come in and kills them before they can see what buildings you have? Also, can't blizzard just change how effective the queen is against workers... :-/ I just dont see why this is a huge issue, even the author of that article felt it may not be so OP, and maybe there is something they missed... Show nested quote +Am I the only one that thinks it'd be good to fix major issues BEFORE the beta? This way people won't be bitching as much about the viability of something like 1 hatch hydra and instead the little nuances in the game will be magnified that much more.
Less time trying to fix major changes means more time noticing subtle imbalances. The only thing I want to know is what makes this a major issue?
First of all you'll never even come close to seeing a Zerg's tech buildings with the new ling pathing AI. Also have you every played against a zerg with lots of larva? Knowing whether they're powering drones or massing an army is crucial. A zerg could be powering economy and teching if all you saw were the buildings.
What makes this a major issue? Zerg might be the only viable race? That'd be boring to ZvZ all the time.
|
Except people tried it against Karune, and he was undefeated.
The people I saw use it against him weren't doing it very well. I woulda beat him :D
|
On September 11 2009 09:16 Grendor wrote:Wow, you only have 200 posts to choose from on that one
Define Major issue, in your opinion..
On September 11 2009 09:21 TanGeng wrote:
First of all you'll never even come close to seeing a Zerg's tech buildings with the new ling pathing AI. Also have you every played against a zerg with lots of larva? Knowing whether they're powering drones or massing an army is crucial. A zerg could be powering economy and teching if all you saw were the buildings.
What makes this a major issue? Zerg might be the only viable race? That'd be boring to ZvZ all the time.
Can't you find out if they are making drones or an army by attacking? If they are massing drones when you attack its GG... if they are making an army its ww3.. ok? I'm still missing the point i guess..
|
Sanya12364 Posts
On September 11 2009 09:23 Santrega wrote:
Can't you find out if they are making drones or an army by attacking? If they are massing drones when you attack its GG... if they are making an army its ww3.. ok? I'm still missing the point i guess..
No because the Zerg will have ling outside your base, overlords nearby. The Z will scout you, see you coming a mile away, build up an army to counter yours and annihilate you in the field. If the Z powers economy, he'll be probably be on 2 bases and have 14 larva to work with when a P or T moves out. Those larva are more than enough to destroy any army that gets sent.
You move out to attack = You lose and GG. Good luck with that one.
And if a P or T delays for a larger army, the Z's advantage only gets bigger and bigger. Wait for one round of larva and 14 drones and maybe another expansion gets plopped down. Besides, Z will have some idea of how large your army is if he tests your defense once in a while. All the Z has to do is remain in striking distance of your army and he can rapidly switch over to military when it becomes necessary.
|
On September 11 2009 09:36 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 09:23 Santrega wrote:
Can't you find out if they are making drones or an army by attacking? If they are massing drones when you attack its GG... if they are making an army its ww3.. ok? I'm still missing the point i guess.. No because the Zerg will have ling outside your base, overlords nearby. The Z will scout you, see you coming a mile away, build up an army to counter yours and annihilate you in the field. If the Z powers economy, he'll be probably be on 2 bases and have 14 larva to work with when a P or T moves out. Those larva are more than enough to destroy any army that gets sent. You move out to attack = You lose and GG. Good luck with that one.
Ok, here is the thing...
There are a 2 smaller problems that I see grouped together in a way that some of you think its a major issue.
It sounds like these are the individual problems
1) Queen kills workers too easily
2) Zerg is producing too fast with the 4 extra larva
Fixes:
1) Give Queens reduced damage against all workers or make its range even smaller.
2) Give a resource cost to larva injection, or increase the time it takes for the extra larva to come down, or decrease the amount of larva.
You can also give workers more health or more armor against lings, marines, and zealots, and decrease the damage they can do to compensate. This would make them more effective scouters.
|
One possibility is that to hold the contain a 1 hatch zerg has to pump units. As soon as the zerg stops and switches to drones the terran or protoss could have more units and break out. Alternatively the P or Z can hold the ramp with a small number of troops and pour resources into teching. Zerg may have created a bunch of drones but its not going to help if my reapers come in and D8 them to hell.
As far as the "In the dark" issue the Orbital Command allows you to Scanner Sweep fairly early.
|
On September 11 2009 03:17 PokePill wrote:
Karune was like a 45% War3 player (Call him D-) when he played in games vs BNet forumers (who are like D+ equivalents), why would he be any better at a more difficult game (SC2). His opinion on game balance is completely worthless, and by the way, we are still waiting for the patch and map pool changes he promised to us on the forums in 2007.
But I mean it is nice to see the COMMUNITY MANAGER post a few times every couple of months with the COMMUNITY.
He's just like some random bystander that works there as far as I'm concerned.
I'm sure there are janitors that work at the offices that have more valuable input.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101510
|
From Karune
"Scouting is much easier now in StarCraft II for various reasons including earlier Observers (without the prerequisite Observatory building as in the original StarCraft), more mobile units like Reapers/Colossi/Stalkers/Medivacs (more incentive now to build these than original StarCraft since they double up as medics). All of these methods of scouting will be available by mid-game and be useful from then on. Before mid game - SCVs and probes are sufficient to scout. Once Zergling speed gets upgraded, there may be a small window of more difficult scouting, but honestly, that window is much smaller than say playing against a Terran player that blocks you out completely. Additionally, Terran still have scan and Protoss still can go fast air to scout and harass Overlords.
Also mentioned in my previous post, these were just a few ways to deal with the 1 hatch threat. There are definitely ways to build your base without blocking the choke, but I have found blocking it against Zerg as the best way to keep fast Zerglings out with the least amount of attention. "
|
On September 11 2009 09:49 Archerofaiur wrote:
One possibility is that to hold the contain a 1 hatch zerg has to pump units. As soon as the zerg stops and switches to drones the terran or protoss could have more units and break out. Alternatively the P or Z can hold the ramp with a small number of troops and pour resources into teching. Zerg may have created a bunch of drones but its not going to help if my reapers come in and D8 them to hell.
As far as the "In the dark" issue the Orbital Command allows you to Scanner Sweep fairly early.
Yea but isn't the whole point of the larvae spawning thing the ability to pump an assload of units whenever you want to reinforce your contain?
To me it looks like the zerg is able to so fluidly switch between drone/military production that it just gives them a huge adv.
|
United States47024 Posts
On September 11 2009 08:49 Santrega wrote:
I'm not saying you guys shouldnt talk about this.. I'm just saying it makes little sense for blizzard to fix this stuff until after beta starts.
Because it's not just an issue of balance, but also an issue of the viability of the macro mechanics as a whole. As is, the Queen's larva injection is the only one of the three mechanics that has any real depth. An issue with the larva injection is an issue with the mechanics as a whole.
On September 11 2009 09:43 Santrega wrote:
1) Queen kills workers too easily
This has already been addressed multiple times. The issue is not that the queen kills scouting workers, but that flawless zergling pathing makes it extremely hard to get workers past them. Queen just serves as backup if they actually get remotely close to your hatchery.
Lowering queen range doesn't fix the issue, and having to screw with how pathing works in the SC2 engine is a HUGE issue.
|
Sanya12364 Posts
On September 11 2009 09:49 Archerofaiur wrote:
One possibility is that to hold the contain a 1 hatch zerg has to pump units. As soon as the zerg stops and switches to drones the terran or protoss could have more units and break out. Alternatively the P or Z can hold the ramp with a small number of troops and pour resources into teching. Zerg may have created a bunch of drones but its not going to help if my reapers come in and D8 them to hell.
As far as the "In the dark" issue the Orbital Command allows you to Scanner Sweep fairly early.
Actually if you pump units to force the zerg to maintain his contain then you will fall behind economically. The Zerg should not respond immediately. Instead once the T or P moves out into the open, the Zerg will immediately restore military superiority and either annihilate the force or reestablish the contain. I think Hot Bid thought that pumping units only causes the T or P to fall further behind.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
