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for the scouting thing:
you can always stop the mule for 50 sec and make one scan, and you can see what the zerg will do, then swicth to mule again...
anyway after 6 min the first exp is saturate, the queen appear after 3 min ,and you get a real advantage 1 min later, so the true advantage, lasts just for two min, that is equal to =500-700 more mineral (estimate), this mean that if you not expand, and deciede to go for one base u can't win for sure(500-700more mineral = 6-9 idra)
this also mean that you get 100% your second exp(and for me it is no longer necessary to scout your base, because i know that u take the exp for sure), now i can decide to drop you fast with 2 medivac with 16 rines(produced from 2 rax+2 reactor), i can do this in 6 mins(estimate), and try some harrassment or trying something else, dunno know...
p.s. don't forgot that, i can always make a bunker rush+salvage combo...
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On September 12 2009 23:11 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On September 12 2009 11:19 Archerofaiur wrote:
Now lets talk about the real issue thats getting people riled up. We have two seemingly contradicting opinions from TL representatives and from the SC2 community manager. On one hand you have people who have experience playing Starcraft from a professional perspective. On the other hand you have a guy who works for Blizzard and has played more SC2 than anyone else in this debate. Each party has a certain sense of authority from their background and current position. And it seems like they disagree.
So who do we trust? [1]
Well one must be right and the other must be completly wrong, right? So you cast your chips on one side or the other and start calling the other side retarded. They arnt. Hot-Bid is not stupid. Karune knows what the zerg economy is like. People need to calm down. [2] [1] Matters are not settled on credentials, they are settled on merits. Even if Hot_Bid was the noobiest noob to ever play SC2 from now until the end of the universe, his arguments could still be 100% spot-on - people would just tend to listen less to them. It's not about who anyone trusts. What is your arguement here? That Karunes comments dont have merit? [1] Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[2] The larva mechanic is either too powerful or it isn't. This has nothing to do with whose side anyone is on or which people are on that side. This is a clear-cut binary decision that must be made by someone at Blizzard. The argument you're trying to use to divide people into 2 groups is actually 2 different arguments. Karune is saying "yeah, I can beat this rush build I've seen Zerg do with 1 hatch queen" and Hot_Bid is saying "1 hatch queen allows too diverse and too powerful responses to other strategies in general." Not even the same topic of discussion. Just for a second consider this posibility. 1) 1 hatch queen allows for incredibly diverse and powerful responces (It does deny scouting, it does give econ or production boosts) and 2) You can still beat it using the other races incredibly diverese and powerful responces Thats why I said that they are apparently contradictory. They appear to be but they may not be. I dont know since I cant speak for Karune. Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
The mechanic itself is more general than the build that Karune was talking about. Yes, maybe his build does counter that build very well. That's all well and good. But there are three options the Zerg has here, none of which the Terran can scout. The Zerg can go full eco, spamming drones. He can also go full production, spamming units. He can also do mix of the two.
The Zerg's ability to adapt like this is a direct consequence of the larva mechanic - it is much more general than some particular rush build that Karune imagined when he was speaking on the topic. Zatic recently confirmed that if you press the zerg you force them to make units. You effectively force their hand by keeping the pressure on. [2] Also about the scouting issue Karune says that its not much different from zerg not being able to see inside a terran base. [3]
[1] I made those statements because you were trying to create an argument from authority. Saying 'well this guy says this, and I trust him' is not a valid argument, nor does it have any effect on things that he says. Karune's credentials mean nothing - all that matters is the issue of whether something is actually overpowered or not. That's all I was saying.
Karune's comments probably do have merit, and he is probably right that the build he described counters the other build he described. But he didn't answer to what you do in general against a 1 hatch queen build.
[2] You can certainly do this, but the Zerg can also respond perfectly every time to your pressure. If he builds the exact right amount of defense to stop your attack from damaging him, he will come out ahead. If responding perfectly to pressure doesn't put him ahead, then the game balance is broken somewhere.
[3] You can keep an overlord out of your base just like you can in SC. All you need is a single marine, perhaps two to keep out two overlords at two places. But the Zerg will scout the instant you move out and will know the number and makeup of your forces. This allows him to respond perfectly so that his defense will be just enough to hold and he will come out economically more ahead than he was before you attacked him. The Terran is at a disadvantage in scouting here.
On September 12 2009 23:31 FortuneSyn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[1] Matters are not settled on credentials, they are settled on merits. Even if Hot_Bid was the noobiest noob to ever play SC2 from now until the end of the universe, his arguments could still be 100% spot-on - people would just tend to listen less to them. It's not about who anyone trusts.
Merits cannot be fully concluded if you have incomplete information. The level of information that each party has is at such a huge gap. Therefore I don't think anyone here is in a position to determine whether HotBid is 100% spot on or not. [1] If you want the clear cut no bullshit version: get off your high horses. It's awesome to debate this and it should be debated, but as ArcherofAiur says please realize that karune and the other folks at blizzard have so much more know-how on SC2 than you do. I am not saying I agree with either party, I'm saying that you shouldn't be so sure of yourself when you have so much less knowledge and experience on the topic than they do. [2]
[1] I agree completely and made no such claim. My comments were just to say that an argument from authority is not as good as an argument from merits. It was in response to something Archerofaiur said, not some new point I was trying to bring up.
[2] I personally think the larva mechanic is overpowered in its current form. There has been a good case made for this proposition. No one at Blizzard has actually said anything to make me think otherwise either. The response from Karune talks about a single build vs. another single build (and how does he know exactly what the Zerg is doing?), but the larva mechanic is a general thing that goes beyond single builds. I'd like to hear Karune's thoughts on how you can equal a Zerg's scouting so that you're not at a scouting disadvantage. I'd like to see him respond to some of the well-thought-out writeups that have been made here. Until the general mechanic is addressed (and not just a single build), Blizzard has given me no reason not to agree with Hot_Bid and Chill.
My main issue with Archerofaiur is not his position, it's his method of argument.
It's one thing to refer to 100 progames on TLPD where something is able to consistently beat a strategy or overcome a mechanic. It's another thing for someone to take comments from Karune about a specific strategy versus a specific build and generalize it into saying that something involved in that specific build is not overpowered.
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On September 13 2009 00:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 23:11 Archerofaiur wrote:On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On September 12 2009 11:19 Archerofaiur wrote:
Now lets talk about the real issue thats getting people riled up. We have two seemingly contradicting opinions from TL representatives and from the SC2 community manager. On one hand you have people who have experience playing Starcraft from a professional perspective. On the other hand you have a guy who works for Blizzard and has played more SC2 than anyone else in this debate. Each party has a certain sense of authority from their background and current position. And it seems like they disagree.
So who do we trust? [1]
Well one must be right and the other must be completly wrong, right? So you cast your chips on one side or the other and start calling the other side retarded. They arnt. Hot-Bid is not stupid. Karune knows what the zerg economy is like. People need to calm down. [2] [1] Matters are not settled on credentials, they are settled on merits. Even if Hot_Bid was the noobiest noob to ever play SC2 from now until the end of the universe, his arguments could still be 100% spot-on - people would just tend to listen less to them. It's not about who anyone trusts. What is your arguement here? That Karunes comments dont have merit? [1] On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[2] The larva mechanic is either too powerful or it isn't. This has nothing to do with whose side anyone is on or which people are on that side. This is a clear-cut binary decision that must be made by someone at Blizzard. The argument you're trying to use to divide people into 2 groups is actually 2 different arguments. Karune is saying "yeah, I can beat this rush build I've seen Zerg do with 1 hatch queen" and Hot_Bid is saying "1 hatch queen allows too diverse and too powerful responses to other strategies in general." Not even the same topic of discussion. Just for a second consider this posibility. 1) 1 hatch queen allows for incredibly diverse and powerful responces (It does deny scouting, it does give econ or production boosts) and 2) You can still beat it using the other races incredibly diverese and powerful responces Thats why I said that they are apparently contradictory. They appear to be but they may not be. I dont know since I cant speak for Karune. On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
The mechanic itself is more general than the build that Karune was talking about. Yes, maybe his build does counter that build very well. That's all well and good. But there are three options the Zerg has here, none of which the Terran can scout. The Zerg can go full eco, spamming drones. He can also go full production, spamming units. He can also do mix of the two.
The Zerg's ability to adapt like this is a direct consequence of the larva mechanic - it is much more general than some particular rush build that Karune imagined when he was speaking on the topic. Zatic recently confirmed that if you press the zerg you force them to make units. You effectively force their hand by keeping the pressure on. [2] Also about the scouting issue Karune says that its not much different from zerg not being able to see inside a terran base. [3] [1] I made those statements because you were trying to create an argument from authority. Saying 'well this guy says this, and I trust him' is not a valid argument, nor does it have any effect on things that he says. Karune's credentials mean nothing - all that matters is the issue of whether something is actually overpowered or not. That's all I was saying..
That is absolutly not what I said. My statement was the exact opposite. I think people are rushing to one side or the other and then blocking out everything the other side is saying. Then they are extrapulating to form these incredible conclusions about how the game most definatly works. I would urge everyone to take a second to calm down and consider the posibility that they are rushing to conclusions without adequate information.
On September 13 2009 00:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
Karune's comments probably do have merit, and he is probably right that the build he described counters the other build he described. But he didn't answer to what you do in general against a 1 hatch queen build.
The first time he explained what one possible counter to 1 hatch was. People then asked him about scouting and he said that yes you are in the dark but it is not that much more detrimental than not knowing what terran is doing. Now you can continue to bring up other points like the flexibility of unit productio. However you have to accept that just because he didnt adress a point it doesnt mean that Blizzard has not thought about it. He could give an answer about the flexibilty and you could have 100 more questions.
On September 13 2009 00:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[2] You can certainly do this, but the Zerg can also respond perfectly every time to your pressure. If he builds the exact right amount of defense to stop your attack from damaging him, he will come out ahead. If responding perfectly to pressure doesn't put him ahead, then the game balance is broken somewhere.
I do not have adequate information to confirm or deny this statement. You might be right. You might be wrong.
On September 13 2009 00:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[3] You can keep an overlord out of your base just like you can in SC. All you need is a single marine, perhaps two to keep out two overlords at two places. But the Zerg will scout the instant you move out and will know the number and makeup of your forces. This allows him to respond perfectly so that his defense will be just enough to hold and he will come out economically more ahead than he was before you attacked him. The Terran is at a disadvantage in scouting here..
I do not have adequate information to confirm or deny this statement. You might be right. You might be wrong.
On September 13 2009 00:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 23:31 FortuneSyn wrote:On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[1] Matters are not settled on credentials, they are settled on merits. Even if Hot_Bid was the noobiest noob to ever play SC2 from now until the end of the universe, his arguments could still be 100% spot-on - people would just tend to listen less to them. It's not about who anyone trusts.
Merits cannot be fully concluded if you have incomplete information. The level of information that each party has is at such a huge gap. Therefore I don't think anyone here is in a position to determine whether HotBid is 100% spot on or not. [1] If you want the clear cut no bullshit version: get off your high horses. It's awesome to debate this and it should be debated, but as ArcherofAiur says please realize that karune and the other folks at blizzard have so much more know-how on SC2 than you do. I am not saying I agree with either party, I'm saying that you shouldn't be so sure of yourself when you have so much less knowledge and experience on the topic than they do. [2] [1] I agree completely and made no such claim. My comments were just to say that an argument from authority is not as good as an argument from merits. It was in response to something Archerofaiur said, not some new point I was trying to bring up.
I am glad to see you agree with that. I dont think we dissagree as much as you think we do.
On September 13 2009 00:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[2] I personally think the larva mechanic is overpowered in its current form. There has been a good case made for this proposition. No one at Blizzard has actually said anything to make me think otherwise either. The response from Karune talks about a single build vs. another single build (and how does he know exactly what the Zerg is doing?), but the larva mechanic is a general thing that goes beyond single builds. I'd like to hear Karune's thoughts on how you can equal a Zerg's scouting so that you're not at a scouting disadvantage. I'd like to see him respond to some of the well-thought-out writeups that have been made here. Until the general mechanic is addressed (and not just a single build), Blizzard has given me no reason not to agree with Hot_Bid and Chill..
Well fair enough. You havnt been convinced that larva is not overpowered. I havnt been convinced that larva is overpowerd. I also dont think that scouting needs to be exactly equal at every point in the game.Yes scouting is good and I do like the intellegence style gameflow. However I am ok with certain situations in which you are denied all intel for a period of time.
On September 13 2009 00:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
My main issue with Archerofaiur is not his position, it's his method of argument.
I am sorry you feel that way. I feel that I have been very reasonable with you. Much of what you have replied has been mischaracterizations of my position....
On September 13 2009 00:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
It's one thing to refer to 100 progames on TLPD where something is able to consistently beat a strategy or overcome a mechanic. It's another thing for someone to take comments from Karune about a specific strategy versus a specific build and generalize it into saying that something involved in that specific build is not overpowered.
...Like that.
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Karune clearly described that the timing window between ling speed and midgame scouting tools for toss was small. He did say it was potentially exploitable, but still small enough to not be overpowering in his opinion.
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yeah he is right
to have a obs= gateway(150m/50sec)-->cybernetics core(200m/50sec)--->robotics facility(200m/100gas/65sec)
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On September 13 2009 01:48 Amph wrote:
yeah he is right
to have a obs= gateway(150m/50sec)-->cybernetics core(200m/50sec)--->robotics facility(200m/100gas/65sec)
Plus the time to make an obs.
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yeah of course, it's 33 sec plus 25m/75gas
so it's a total of 198secs, but you can't go straight to it , therefore i think that you can have it at 4 min...
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It's not just a matter of getting observers out though, but also having an army ready to deal with what you see (punish greed or defend an attack).
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United States12607 Posts
DefMatrixUltra: thank you for fighting the good fight in this thread.
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I submit that if the macro mechanics are removed, SC2 may have more strategic variety than it does currently as far as strats go (which is the opposite of what the reason for them was). But, like every other comment, this is just a guess...
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Very simple question:
What if the cost for queen, mule and obelisk were upped by 200minerals?
I think they justify the price of an expansion since they are worth like 1/2 expansion + you do not need to defend another base.
Also those alternative mechanics could be buffed into real powerful alternatives, since they are so much harder to get
Oh, and why is Obelsik so weak? .
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yeah, the obelisk has only 100 hp... it can be destroyed pretty easily with a ling rush...
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As far as credentials, Karune is supposed to be the #2 SC2 player on the sc2 ladders, only losing to David Kim. (It came up in a different thread). Take that as you will.
(I do personally find the ability overpowered)
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On September 13 2009 03:03 Teejing wrote:
Very simple question:
What if the cost for queen, mule and obelisk were upped by 200minerals?
I think they justify the price of an expansion since they are worth like 1/2 expansion The obelisk is a 20% increase. I don't know how that's worth an expansion >.<
It also lacks the benefit that an expansion actually has EXTRA potential minerals, and not just faster mining. IE less dangers of mining out quickly and having no income.
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Hotbid you have to rape him 10-0 and see if he balance it hahaha
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I'm not going to comment on the build specified in this thread this time (isn't 3 threads enough?) but I do want to say that I disagree with attacking Archer's "way of arguing" because he's probably the most coherent person I've discussed this issue with on this forum....
Also @ amph, the cybernetics core costs 150 minerals in the latest build. :D
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[2] You can certainly do this, but the Zerg can also respond perfectly every time to your pressure. If he builds the exact right amount of defense to stop your attack from damaging him, he will come out ahead. If responding perfectly to pressure doesn't put him ahead, then the game balance is broken somewhere.
I disagree. If it is trivially easy to respond perfectly to pressure than it should not give an advantage. Advantage should only be given when someone does something difficult.
It is pretty easy for a Zerg player to respond to a corsair scout out of a protoss FE without losing more than one overlord, (which costs much less than stargate+sair) but that "perfect response" do not give the Zerg player an advantage, merely maintain a draw. If Zerg can defend an air scout without gaining an advantage, how would it be different it it where zealots instead?
But the Zerg will scout the instant you move out and will know the number and makeup of your forces. This allows him to respond perfectly so that his defense will be just enough to hold and he will come out economically more ahead than he was before you attacked him. The Terran is at a disadvantage in scouting here.
You are assuming that the Zerg's response costs the Zerg economy the same amount as the Terran one. If it takes 600minerals of zerg units to kill 300minerals of terran ones (actually very common in current TvZ), "perfect response" in the form of just building just enough do not imply a economic advantage.
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Basically, what I'm saying is that better scouting do not imply anything. Better scouting helps and gains an advantage if economy and military unit power is equal, however IT IS NOT EQUAL amongst races. Just imagine playing one of those crazy altered starcraft UMS where one side gets map hacks and other gets 1/2 cost for units....I know what I'm picking.
The question is how to balance the difference between different variables so that fun gameplay emerges rather than focus on a single one.
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I've been thinking about builds for TvZ against 1hatch queen, and I am quite stuck. I wonder if those with game experience have any idea on how to go at it.
The problem isn't that the Zerg can switch builds so much, but two other things:
1. Zerg can power economy far faster than it before and far faster than the terran
2. Terran do not have a good early attack option
The simple fact is that marines and other ranged units are weak in small numbers and works well only with a deathball which now takes longer to build up due to lack of stim/medics. So here are what I see as terran options:
1. Early pressure, loses Marines to Zerglings force that costs less and fall behind.
2. FE: Even if not broken frontally, up to 7 drones per round of production grows far faster than 2 SCV per round and with improved pathing, all those income allows it power army or more bases before 2base saturates. Losing economically is certain and would not work at all without combining with #3
3. Tech: Zerg would be growing economically very fast and unless terran tech is zomg damn uber, it won't help. However if Terran mid game tech is damned uber it'd effect TvP as well.
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That is not saying that the thing couldn't be balanced, but to keep early game power in check with the kind of starting units and mechanics we see, the following would probably happen.
Assuming that the Zerg is:
Zerg: Fast army power, Exponential econ
Then Terran have to be as follows:
Terran: Exponential army power, linear econ
Since Terran can't match early game combat power to stop zerg exponential econ growth, its deathball most grow in combat power exponentially to match.
Then Protoss has to work like this:
Protoss: Exponential army power, linear econ
If the protoss has only fast army power (aka 2gate rush) but does not scale up anywhere as well as terran, than it would HAVE TO ALL IN on a terran before a Terran uber deathball happens. Protoss need exponential growth in something to match terrans without resorting to all in every game.
Unless TvZ and TvP units are completely different, but I don't see that quite happening yet.....
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On September 13 2009 16:27 SWPIGWANG wrote:
3. Tech: Zerg would be growing economically very fast and unless terran tech is zomg damn uber, it won't help. However if Terran mid game tech is damned uber it'd effect TvP as well.
You can basically get 2 factories worth of production capability for helions by the time zerg researched ling speed. Then it takes 60 game seconds to build 4 helions which instantly rapes any amount of zerglings and are also cost effective against hydras.
Now, if the zerg didn't scout this and assumed that he could respond to any threat using 7 larvae he is now dead or at least lost a huge chunk of his worker losing all of his economic advantage, just like the zerg needs a few lings to check up on the terran the terran just needs a few marines to keep overlords away.
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On September 13 2009 15:42 SWPIGWANG wrote:Show nested quote +
[2] You can certainly do this, but the Zerg can also respond perfectly every time to your pressure. If he builds the exact right amount of defense to stop your attack from damaging him, he will come out ahead. If responding perfectly to pressure doesn't put him ahead, then the game balance is broken somewhere.
I disagree. If it is trivially easy to respond perfectly to pressure than it should not give an advantage. Advantage should only be given when someone does something difficult. [1] It is pretty easy for a Zerg player to respond to a corsair scout out of a protoss FE without losing more than one overlord, (which costs much less than stargate+sair) but that "perfect response" do not give the Zerg player an advantage, merely maintain a draw. [2] Show nested quote +But the Zerg will scout the instant you move out and will know the number and makeup of your forces. This allows him to respond perfectly so that his defense will be just enough to hold and he will come out economically more ahead than he was before you attacked him. The Terran is at a disadvantage in scouting here. You are assuming that the Zerg's response costs the Zerg economy the same amount as the Terran one. If it takes 600minerals of zerg units to kill 300minerals of terran ones (actually very common in current TvZ), "perfect response" in the form of just building just enough do not imply a economic advantage. [3] ------------------------ Basically, what I'm saying is that better scouting do not imply anything. Better scouting helps and gains an advantage if economy and military unit power is equal, however IT IS NOT EQUAL amongst races. Just imagine playing one of those crazy altered starcraft UMS where one side gets map hacks and other gets 1/2 cost for units....I know what I'm picking. [4] The question is how to balance the difference between different variables so that fun gameplay emerges rather than focus on a single one.
[1] It's never trivially easy to respond to something perfectly. Responding to something perfectly implies being prepared for it in the first place (metagame knowledge), knowing exactly the minimum you need to respond (experience/game sense), and then executing the response. These three things encompass pretty much every aspect of army in Starcraft, and responding to something is never trivial unless the players' skill levels are nowhere near each other.
That said, a good player who takes every advantage he can and has good knowledge of the game can set up situations for himself in which it is much easier to perfectly respond to something. Even if it's easy, they should come out ahead. It takes planning and lots of game knowledge. This should be rewarded.
If a general situation exists where a player responds perfectly to something but does not come out ahead, then I would say the game is not balanced - that's one of my core definitions. If a player is so skilled that he can pull off something perfectly, he ought to come out ahead, even if it's 'easy' to execute.
My argument about the Zerg in SC2 is that their capability for response is too strong in comparison to the other races - this is a bad thing in my opinion; that's why I'm arguing against it. It might be all right if the Zerg has a scouting advantage over the other races. This exists somewhat in both matchups already because of map layout and overlord placement. It also might be all right if the Zerg has a big production advantage over his opponents. But both of them together compound each other. Superior scouting ability means the Zerg can respond perfectly to attacks. Superior production capability means the Zerg can respond can respond extremely well to defensive play and also provides him with an easier means to defend the attacks which he scouted with his superior scouting.
Like I was saying earlier, a perfect response should be rewarded in every situation. But the Zerg's capability for a perfect response is too high. If he has the ability to perfectly respond to attacks and the ability to power drones against defensive play, then he ought to pay some price for it. The other races ought to be able to scout him and punish him likewise for pushing out or powering drones.
Imagine ZvP in Starcraft if the Zerg could go overpool speed or 9 pool speed and also build 2 hatcheries simultaneously and stay at the same level of economy and defense as if they just went 9 pool speed. That abuses the Protoss' inability to scout far too much. I honestly believe this is the situation that will come up in SC2 as the mechanics exist right now.
[2] This is a specific situation involving tech timings. It's not really responding to something. It's more like playing out a script that has come from the evolution of the metagame. A better situation would be something considered non-standard in today's play in SC. If a Protoss went FE and hid a second scouting probe and somehow got to a Zerg base to see hydralisks rallying, he could build extra cannons at his natural expansion - this is an example of perfect response. It's responding to something that you didn't 90% expect.
In this case, the Protoss had it pretty easy. He had the knowledge and experience to hide a probe from zerglings. He had the experience to know that rallying hydralisks likely means an attack on the natural. He knows that the counter to this is building extra cannons at his natural. This would be considered an easy perfect response, but it should definitely put the Protoss ahead. It's not so much about making it easier for the Protoss but giving the Protoss the ability to punish the Zerg player for his choice of build and tech.
[3] This is true again, but this is another argument where the outcome/answer will be determined by tech timings and so on. To give an example to state more clearly what I mean: Imagine a ZvT in which the Zerg stays too long on Lair tech and the Terran has gone MnM with tanks/vessels. The Terran will obviously push into the Zerg's natural (or possibly an exposed base) with his tank force just obliterating pretty much anything. Now it's conceivable that the Zerg could 'perfectly' defend against this army by building 859484 hatcheries and spamming masses of Lair units to force the Terran's army away from his base.
However, the Zerg will most definitely not end up ahead even though he may have made the minimum forces to respond. The reason he won't end up ahead is because of his imperfect early on. He didn't play out the metagame script properly and is now paying for it. So any response that he makes, even if it's exact and precise, cannot really be perfect.
So a perfect response by my meaning is something that lies outside of things like metagame and tech levels.
[4] Fortunately the game is not balanced around such mechanics nor should it be.
On September 13 2009 16:27 SWPIGWANG wrote:
I've been thinking about builds for TvZ against 1hatch queen, and I am quite stuck. I wonder if those with game experience have any idea on how to go at it.
The problem isn't that the Zerg can switch builds so much, but two other things:
1. Zerg can power economy far faster than it before and far faster than the terran
2. Terran do not have a good early attack option
The simple fact is that marines and other ranged units are weak in small numbers and works well only with a deathball which now takes longer to build up due to lack of stim/medics. So here are what I see as terran options:
1. Early pressure, loses Marines to Zerglings force that costs less and fall behind.
2. FE: Even if not broken frontally, up to 7 drones per round of production grows far faster than 2 SCV per round and with improved pathing, all those income allows it power army or more bases before 2base saturates. Losing economically is certain and would not work at all without combining with #3
3. Tech: Zerg would be growing economically very fast and unless terran tech is zomg damn uber, it won't help. However if Terran mid game tech is damned uber it'd effect TvP as well.
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That is not saying that the thing couldn't be balanced, but to keep early game power in check with the kind of starting units and mechanics we see, the following would probably happen.
Assuming that the Zerg is:
Zerg: Fast army power, Exponential econ
Then Terran have to be as follows:
Terran: Exponential army power, linear econ
Since Terran can't match early game combat power to stop zerg exponential econ growth, its deathball most grow in combat power exponentially to match.
Then Protoss has to work like this:
Protoss: Exponential army power, linear econ
If the protoss has only fast army power (aka 2gate rush) but does not scale up anywhere as well as terran, than it would HAVE TO ALL IN on a terran before a Terran uber deathball happens. Protoss need exponential growth in something to match terrans without resorting to all in every game.
Unless TvZ and TvP units are completely different, but I don't see that quite happening yet.....
I just wanna say, I'm really glad you made this post. This is pretty much my exact thinking about the matchups as they exist now, and I'm sure many others feel the same way.
The only way to keep the larva mechanic and the scouting imbalances in the game currently is to somehow make tech timings that give you the capability of punishing the Zerg by severely damaging him if he doesn't tech. As you said, this affects the other matchup balances too. I think the easiest practical solution is to remove or lessen the scouting imbalance (changing creep speed to a tech or something) or decreasing the larva mechanic's power or some combination of both.
Of course it's harder to comment on specific techs and builds than it is on general game mechanics, but I think you hit on a lot of the worries I have about the matchup balance.
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EPT
