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Source: How does T or P counter 1hatch queen?
There is also an article here which states a few of my thoughts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101510Additionally, the 1hatch queen build is strong, but relatively easy to stop if you know this is a potential strategy on the field. These are just a few strategies I use and by no means the only strategies I've seen used: With Terran, you will naturally want to block your choke point. This in itself will easily stop fast Zerglings, as you can use Marines to fire upon enemies from a cliff (since they don't have LoS, just make sure you keep those pesky Overlords at bay, which is relatively easy as well). SCVs do an excellent job of repairing much faster than Zerglings can do damage at this early of a stage. Hydralisks on the other hand pose a bit more problems, but can still be handled by a group of Marines behind supply depots or even a bunker if it is needed. Terran choke points are quite difficult to break at the moment and while your enemy expends resources determined to break it, I would hope you would be teching either to Banshees or Reapers for harassment, then putting them into the defensive and taking you into the mid-game, where arguably at the moment Zerg is forced to be at a defensive if they did do the 1hatch queen strategy (key point being the 1 hatch or late expand). With Protoss, the proposed Zerg strategy is a bit more viable and it takes a little more skill to defend against it. For me, I often block my choke point with 2 gateways or 1 gateway/1 cybernetics core (if I am teching), leaving one cell open for an easy single Zealot block. Breaking that choke point for a single Zergling hitting that Zealot at a time, is an easy block, and quite cost effective for the Protoss player. For a determined Zerg player, they would either start attacking the gateways or tech to Banelings to take out the Zealot(s). Timing-wise, you will be able to get your second Zealot out in time well before the Gateway is even at half health, which is usually enough to push off those initial Zerglings. When your Cybernetics Core is up, this opens up Nullifiers, which is a must used unit in my opinion against Zerg. At this time if the Zerg player has converted to Hydralisks (or even straight teched to Hydralisks), you should have at least one Nullifier up, which are excellent at both killing Hydralisks (with even 1 Zealot tanking) or even better, cutting a Zerg force in half while they push up the ramp, easily allowing your Zealot to hold the choke while your ranged units like Nullifiers and Stalkers annihilate half the force with ease, putting the Zerg on the defensive now, and opening up mid-game options. Of course both strategies require micro, which is intentional - with an Overlord scouting and giving LoS, Hydralisks can be very potent. The 1 hatch queen strategy is quite capable, but not overpowering. Hope this was useful - though you can expect lots of things to still change and be changed throughout beta. Zerg's were mentioned as the 'weaker' race in a developer interview not because of their early game, but their mid game. In current builds, it is much more balanced with recent changes to make Zerg a bit more threatening in mid-game, such as Roaches moving while burrowed as one example.
You can thank ArcherofAiur for that post :D
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Looks like in both cases they're expecting for one-base play by T/P above a ramp (what happens to ramp-less maps >_> ) .
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On September 11 2009 03:04 Southlight wrote:
Looks like in both cases they're expecting for one-base play by T/P above a ramp (what happens to ramp-less maps >_>).
everyone cries (unless your a zerg)
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i thought that the point was that 1 hatch wasn't impossible to stop but that it denied scouting too well and left your opponents in the dark from which you could either macro up drones or offensive and your opponent would have to keep guessing from a backwards position
ie. the solutions seem to only address early lings/hydras not the alternative or
did i not comprehend/read properly?
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It doesn't address the fact that zerg can power up.
All it stated was. "If the T/P turtles they won't lose" "When they get to the mid-game they win."
Except with the abilitiy to mass drones, won't the Z have too large of an economy before t/p can push? Like, after the first set of lings with speed to deny scouting, the zerg can get 2 bases running for long enough to be weaker in mid game, but throw enough weak units and you still beat the better army.
I'm sure he knows best, but I would've liked it more if he spoke about how it opens up options not just the ability get a large rush.
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I think it would be amusing if units going uphill would slow down and units going downhill would speed up.
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I think they are actually just assuming a choke or simcity, not neccesarily a ramp because they even allow overlord LoS to counter the cliff advantage.
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On September 11 2009 03:12 dcberkeley wrote:
i thought that the point was that 1 hatch wasn't impossible to stop but that it denied scouting too well and left your opponents in the dark from which you could either macro up drones or offensive and your opponent would have to keep guessing from a backwards position
ie. the solutions seem to only address early lings/hydras not the alternative or
did i not comprehend/read properly?
That might just be a disadvantage. Not nessisarily a game changer. You are in the dark for a while but not permanently. Pretty soon you can get Scanner Sweep up.
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Karune was like a 45% War3 player (Call him D-) when he played in games vs BNet forumers (who are like D+ equivalents), why would he be any better at a more difficult game (SC2). His opinion on game balance is completely worthless, and by the way, we are still waiting for the patch and map pool changes he promised to us on the forums in 2007.
But I mean it is nice to see the COMMUNITY MANAGER post a few times every couple of months with the COMMUNITY.
He's just like some random bystander that works there as far as I'm concerned.
I'm sure there are janitors that work at the offices that have more valuable input.
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Would have been 2x cooler if karune did 2 mini battle reports for demonstration. ^^
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On September 11 2009 03:17 PokePill wrote:
Karune was like a 45% War3 player (Call him D-) when he played in games vs BNet forumers, why would he be any better at a more difficult game (SC2). His opinion on game balance is completely worthless, and by the way, we are still waiting for the patch and map pool changes he promised to us on the forums in 2007.
But I mean it is nice to see the COMMUNITY MANAGER post a few times every couple of months with the COMMUNITY.
completely worthless your on crack good sir, just plain old crack
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Zurich15314 Posts
I don't understand. The poster specifically asks about the economic advantage from queen unit/drone powering and the difficulty to scouting Zerg, yet he answers how to block a Zergling rush. This does not help at all.
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If you have additional questions feel free to ask them in that B.Net thread. Karune might reply. But be respectful to Karune.
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He says things exactly in the same vein that the articlepost he's referencing says. Why doesn't he address the responses people have given in that thread, instead? That would actually be discussing this, rather than blindly spouting his own thoughts.
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A second read of the OP makes me wonder if they think it's balanced right now because zerg mid-game "sucks," so zerg can't do anything with their supposed economic advantage, or something. LOL.
Also,
On September 11 2009 03:01 n00bonicPlague wrote:For me, I often block my choke point with 2 gateways or 1 gateway/1 cybernetics core (if I am teching), leaving one cell open for an easy single Zealot block. Breaking that choke point for a single Zergling hitting that Zealot at a time, is an easy block, and quite cost effective for the Protoss player. For a determined Zerg player, they would either start attacking the gateways or tech to Banelings to take out the Zealot(s).
Timing-wise, you will be able to get your second Zealot out in time well before the Gateway is even at half health, which is usually enough to push off those initial Zerglings. When your Cybernetics Core is up, this opens up Nullifiers, which is a must used unit in my opinion against Zerg. At this time if the Zerg player has converted to Hydralisks (or even straight teched to Hydralisks), you should have at least one Nullifier up, which are excellent at both killing Hydralisks (with even 1 Zealot tanking) or even better, cutting a Zerg force in half while they push up the ramp, easily allowing your Zealot to hold the choke while your ranged units like Nullifiers and Stalkers annihilate half the force with ease, putting the Zerg on the defensive now, and opening up mid-game options.
Unless I'm imagining things wrong, wouldn't that mean he loses his choke point every time?
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Having a strategy guide before the pros have raped the fuck out of the game is silly. Whatever this guide says will not be relevant in 3 years time. Oh god im going to hate this game when all the noobs are playing it and spouting, "IMBA IMBA IMBA!" Anyhow before i begin ranting, I just want to ask everyone before all the noobs come to just smile and say gg. And anyone of you start calling IMBA! to realize that you should play on the other side and if no1 can stop you consistently then(and only then) should you rage on a forums(where things get done lol.)
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Zurich15314 Posts
I don't have an additional question I would just like the original question being answered. His entire answer is about defending vs a super early rush and then taking the lead throughout the mid game. Which is all good and sound advice, it is just not what HB's article was about, and thus also not what your question was, or was it?
I might have reacted a bit abruptly but I get tired of people misunderstanding the 1 hatch queen play as an early game all-in rush.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 11 2009 03:17 PokePill wrote:
Karune was like a 45% War3 player (Call him D-) when he played in games vs BNet forumers (who are like D+ equivalents), why would he be any better at a more difficult game (SC2). His opinion on game balance is completely worthless, and by the way, we are still waiting for the patch and map pool changes he promised to us on the forums in 2007.
But I mean it is nice to see the COMMUNITY MANAGER post a few times every couple of months with the COMMUNITY.
He's just like some random bystander that works there as far as I'm concerned.
I'm sure there are janitors that work at the offices that have more valuable input.
Well, he's probably played more SC2 than almost anyone else, so maybe he's not the second coming of Sun Tzu, but I don't think holding old records against him is fair.
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On September 11 2009 03:23 Archerofaiur wrote:
If you have additional questions feel free to ask them in that B.Net thread. Karune might reply. But be respectful to Karune.
Never mind, you're right, I should grow up.
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On September 11 2009 03:28 zatic wrote:
I don't have an additional question I would just like the original question being answered. His entire answer is about defending vs a super early rush and then taking the lead throughout the mid game. Which is all good and sound advice, it is just not what HB's article was about, and thus also not what your question was, or was it?
I might have reacted a bit abruptly but I get tired of people misunderstanding the 1 hatch queen play as an early game all-in rush.
Well there are other things that could be fleshed out. Which is why I think people curious should ask karune for clarification in that thread. Personally I think it sounds like you are in the dark for allitle bit and you cant scout for a while. And yah maybe this allows zerg to go macro without you knowing. But that doesnt mean you are going to lose.
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Calgary25966 Posts
He has no idea what he's talking about (as in he's completely and totally missed the issue) and I will be releasing an article soon addressing this nonsense.
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He didn't address any of the real economic concerns or the meta-strategy advantage it gives... which is pretty much everything. Beta testing should fix it though, but they seem pretty clueless at the moment.
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United States47024 Posts
There's also another issue: even if 1-hatch-queen is balanced relative to the other races, it does nothing about the fact that 1-hatch-queen is still more viable than other zerg openings (I could be wrong, but the Queen seems to negate all reasons to go hatchery before pool; or even any early hatchery at all). What's more, if there's only 1 viable zerg opening, it puts adverse metagame pressure on the other races to use only counters to that opening--leading to a stale metagame overall.
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Everyone needs to stop worrying about this. If beta comes and zerg just rofflestomps everyone into the ground then it will change.
It's a non-issue really since beta will be to solve things exactly like this... and unlike now if it really is OP, then blizzard can't hide behind secret builds and timings when the whole world is exposed to how, potentially, OP builds like this are.
Yes, this also means that articles, like the one Chill is planning on making, are both useless and inflamatory. Wait for beta people, abuse the fuck out of it and force them to change. Simple as that.
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Calgary25966 Posts
On September 11 2009 03:49 On_Slaught wrote:
Yes, this also means that articles, like the one Chill is planning on making, are both useless and inflamatory. Wait for beta people, abuse the fuck out of it and force them to change. Simple as that.
Please explain why the article I've been writing is useless so I can stop writing it. Further, please explain why it is inflamatory.
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Katowice25012 Posts
On September 11 2009 03:17 Teejing wrote:
Would have been 2x cooler if karune did 2 mini battle reports for demonstration. ^^
I agree, more battlereports please :D
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Zurich15314 Posts
I think we should all wait at least until the beta of Chill's article is released. Speculating about it's usefulness is just inflammatory at this point.
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Sanya12364 Posts
Well I think that put to rest the idea that they understand the problem with Zerg and the inject larva ability. When directly asked the question about Zerg macro flexibility, the answer turns out to be about how to stop early all-ins that they wouldn't be able to scout.
It also assumes that the Zerg player would be silly enough to suicide the early army into the solid defense despite the fact if the Zerg realized that the defense is a well prepared wall in, the Zerg player would still be at economic parity with the T or P - basically Zerg all-ins aren't complete all-ins in SC2. At least, the beta will wake them up to the possibilities.
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Karune doesn't seem to realize that not all 1hatch queen play = fast zerglings or hydra break.
Oh well, looking forward to the swarm overrunning everyone until Blizzard rebalances things.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 11 2009 03:49 On_Slaught wrote:
Everyone needs to stop worrying about this. If beta comes and zerg just rofflestomps everyone into the ground then it will change.
It's a non-issue really since beta will be to solve things exactly like this... and unlike now if it really is OP, then blizzard can't hide behind secret builds and timings when the whole world is exposed to how, potentially, OP builds like this are.
Yes, this also means that articles, like the one Chill is planning on making, are both useless and inflamatory. Wait for beta people, abuse the fuck out of it and force them to change. Simple as that.
The issue right now isn't even whether zerg is imbalanced or not. The issue is that Karune failed to address the question asked at all. There's no way they could address the issue of balance if they aren't even looking at it from the right angle.
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On September 11 2009 04:02 TheYango wrote:
There's no way they could address the issue of balance if they aren't even looking at it from the right angle.
The only problem with that is, they arent looking to address the issue of balance unless its a huge problem. If it isnt painfully obvious, it doesnt need to be fixed until after beta comes out. If you go fixing things now before people really have a chance to test it, you are just going to end up re-fixing everything, which is basically both a waste of time and resources, and also not very smart.
They only need to make sure the core of the game is balanced before beta, as in the only thing left is tweaking of unit attributes, build times, and cost. I believe most of the problems with zerg found in that article can be fixed with minor tweaks, and really don't require a response, nor any further development time before beta.
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Nice Article, but it still looks like terrans has no mapcontrol until hellions and Protoss has to wait for chargelots.
By this time Z could expand while speedlings deny any scouting.
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On September 11 2009 03:51 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 03:49 On_Slaught wrote:
Yes, this also means that articles, like the one Chill is planning on making, are both useless and inflamatory. Wait for beta people, abuse the fuck out of it and force them to change. Simple as that. Please explain why the article I've been writing is useless so I can stop writing it. Further, please explain why it is inflamatory.
Nothing I can say will stop you from writing the article (which is fine. i'm kinda curious what it will say), but it will only cause more bickering about blizzards competance and create unjustified fear in a game that hasn't even gone to beta where there is a 99.9999999999999999% chance of this very problem being fixed and becomming a non-issue in the first few weeks.
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On September 11 2009 03:29 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 03:17 PokePill wrote:
Karune was like a 45% War3 player (Call him D-) when he played in games vs BNet forumers (who are like D+ equivalents), why would he be any better at a more difficult game (SC2). His opinion on game balance is completely worthless, and by the way, we are still waiting for the patch and map pool changes he promised to us on the forums in 2007.
But I mean it is nice to see the COMMUNITY MANAGER post a few times every couple of months with the COMMUNITY.
He's just like some random bystander that works there as far as I'm concerned.
I'm sure there are janitors that work at the offices that have more valuable input. Well, he's probably played more SC2 than almost anyone else, so maybe he's not the second coming of Sun Tzu, but I don't think holding old records against him is fair.
He was also unbeatable at that last SC2 show, where people could play him and the others for betakeys, he's supposedly second only to David Kim.
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On September 11 2009 03:55 zatic wrote:
I think we should all wait at least until the beta of Chill's article is released. Speculating about it's usefulness is just inflammatory at this point.
5/5, would quote again.
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Keep in mind that Karune is not the balance designer--he's the community manager. Just because he might be wrong doesn't mean everyone at Blizzard are idiots.
Also keep in mind that Karune likely knows more about the game than 90% of the people on this board. So he probably knows what he's talking about, even if you don't agree with it.
But yes, I agree that this is still a problem, though not a huge one. It's nice to know that 1-hatch Hydra breaks aren't unstoppable, though...
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On September 11 2009 03:42 TheYango wrote:
There's also another issue: even if 1-hatch-queen is balanced relative to the other races, it does nothing about the fact that 1-hatch-queen is still more viable than other zerg openings (I could be wrong, but the Queen seems to negate all reasons to go hatchery before pool; or even any early hatchery at all). What's more, if there's only 1 viable zerg opening, it puts adverse metagame pressure on the other races to use only counters to that opening--leading to a stale metagame overall.
This and the fact that 1 hatch play is totally unzergish (well, except for the most aggressive builds) is what bothers me the most.
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On September 11 2009 04:24 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 03:51 Chill wrote:On September 11 2009 03:49 On_Slaught wrote:
Yes, this also means that articles, like the one Chill is planning on making, are both useless and inflamatory. Wait for beta people, abuse the fuck out of it and force them to change. Simple as that. Please explain why the article I've been writing is useless so I can stop writing it. Further, please explain why it is inflamatory. Nothing I can say will stop you from writing the article (which is fine. i'm kinda curious what it will say), but it will only cause more bickering about blizzards competance and create unjustified fear in a game that hasn't even gone to beta where there is a 99.9999999999999999% chance of this very problem being fixed and becomming a non-issue in the first few weeks.
The best way to ensure that this is a non issue is to attract attention to it. I don't think this balance discussion is inflammatory, or will negaticvely affect sales - its very early in the day, but I think if you care about how good the game is and are in a position to carefully describe the issues then it can only be helpful.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 11 2009 05:23 Captain Peabody wrote:
Keep in mind that Karune is not the balance designer--he's the community manager. Just because he might be wrong doesn't mean everyone at Blizzard are idiots.
Also keep in mind that Karune likely knows more about the game than 90% of the people on this board. So he probably knows what he's talking about, even if you don't agree with it.
But yes, I agree that this is still a problem, though not a huge one. It's nice to know that 1-hatch Hydra breaks aren't unstoppable, though...
99%
EDIT: 99.99% actually. I'm leaving the possibility of David Kim having a TL account open!
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Calgary25966 Posts
On September 11 2009 05:23 Captain Peabody wrote:
Keep in mind that Karune is not the balance designer--he's the community manager. Just because he might be wrong doesn't mean everyone at Blizzard are idiots.
Also keep in mind that Karune likely knows more about the game than 90% of the people on this board. So he probably knows what he's talking about, even if you don't agree with it.
But yes, I agree that this is still a problem, though not a huge one. It's nice to know that 1-hatch Hydra breaks aren't unstoppable, though...
Did you read what he wrote? Not only did he not address the issue, he didn't even come close. Someone asked about the Queen letting Zerg buildup in either direction too quickly and he talked about stopping a Zergling rush. What?
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Besides not answering the original flexibility/drone-power-up question, I am also not convinced of the effectiveness of the nullifier (disruptor?) in stopping hydras. It does have a bonus vs. bio and the force shield (how much energy do they spawn with?), but a single one should be easy to snipe.
At any rate, even the start of a dialog is great news. Looking forward to Chill's retort and hoping for further insight from Karune/other devs. Perhaps even some demo games!
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Karune should stop playing SC2 and fix WC3.
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I went 1 hatch queen undefeated at PAX and I would have loved to play Karune. He's a really nice guy and knows a lot. I have to agree with Chill though because Karune told me specifically that I would be behind in economy if I went one hatch queen and this is blatantly not true.
I went crazy drones and dominated the map as soon as I knew I wasn't going to be rushed. By the time they've invested in a choke they've lost unless they have god micro or the Zerg JUST makes hydras.
By the time Z or P is ready for their mid-game push I'm zoomed in watching the pretty graphics on my ultras and brood lords.
One more comment about PAX, I noticed that every once in a while there was frame rate loss - slight but noticable. Their IT guy was at the booth and he said that the machines were all I7s with GTX 275s. Again it was almost always smooth, and he did mention that being in their locked no-airflow boxes sometimes causes the video cards to overheat.
This is why I'm waiting until the very last second to upgrade my machine - playing those UMS or 10 player maps is going to need everything your computer has if you want to play on the highest settings.
EDIT: Larvae injection is SUPER fun. There's nothing limiting about more larvae! If anything it's hive-mind-top-down-hierarchy-ish that makes it just feel Zerg. One of the things I love about playing zerg is their ability to ramp up their economy quickly. I hope they keep the mechanic even after they realize it's unbalanced - just make it involve a little more risk!
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On September 11 2009 04:09 Santrega wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 04:02 TheYango wrote:
There's no way they could address the issue of balance if they aren't even looking at it from the right angle. The only problem with that is, they arent looking to address the issue of balance unless its a huge problem. If it isnt painfully obvious, it doesnt need to be fixed until after beta comes out. If you go fixing things now before people really have a chance to test it, you are just going to end up re-fixing everything, which is basically both a waste of time and resources, and also not very smart. They only need to make sure the core of the game is balanced before beta, as in the only thing left is tweaking of unit attributes, build times, and cost. I believe most of the problems with zerg found in that article can be fixed with minor tweaks, and really don't require a response, nor any further development time before beta.
If people who have never played SC2 before are ale to beat some of the best Blizzard players, then the build is clearly OP. That's what happened at PAX.
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"I would hope you would be teching either to Banshees or Reapers for harassment, then putting them into the defensive and taking you into the mid-game, where arguably at the moment Zerg is forced to be at a defensive if they did do the 1hatch queen strategy (key point being the 1 hatch or late expand)."
this part is the real answer
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On September 11 2009 06:43 Amph wrote:
"I would hope you would be teching either to Banshees or Reapers for harassment, then putting them into the defensive and taking you into the mid-game, where arguably at the moment Zerg is forced to be at a defensive if they did do the 1hatch queen strategy (key point being the 1 hatch or late expand)."
this part is the real answer
Huh? That still doesn't answer anything about scouting the zerg really. Going straight for reapers sounds like suicide if the zerg is doing a hydra break.
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Man why all people are making so much theorycraft or a non existing game? lol
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I feel like he didn't really address the specific build that TL was talking about. It's not really a rush.... It's a timing push from what i gathered, and not an All-in one. It's early-midgame not late-earlygame which is what he seemed to be addressing... but eh the balancing process is just beginning, I'm not concerned 
Ludwig: because it's entertaining and because we can't actually play the game... Why are people posting offtopic posts in a thread?
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On September 11 2009 06:59 LuDwig- wrote:
Man why all people are making so much theorycraft or a non existing game? lol
Uhm, the whole point of the beta is is to provide feedback. For those that have played 10 or 50 or 1000 games of SC2 already there is a possibility of offering useful feedback. I know I for one would not want to play all beta with one mechanic only to have them change it right before release, so all this discussion serves to bring the most glaring issues to the forefront.
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This is of like when the pool cost 150 mins and 4 pool was ridiculous. Make queen more expensive!
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People are missing the point. If T/P defends against the initial ling/hydra bust then as soon as nullifiers/stalkers are out they can push back against the zerg or force the zerg to continue unit production in a further attempt to wear down the T/P's defense. Either way, the mass drone production isn't nearly as easy for the zerg.
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Sweden33719 Posts
... The point is that there doesn't need to be a hydra-ling bust. The new pathing (plus the ranged queen) denies scouting, the larvae inject opens the playbook of the Zerg wide-open, leaving the T or P in the dark.
Is he all-in hydra?
Is he teching?
Is he expanding?
Is he doing something else entirely?
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Osaka27128 Posts
On September 11 2009 07:52 Leg[end] wrote:
People are missing the point. If T/P defends against the initial ling/hydra bust then as soon as nullifiers/stalkers are out they can push back against the zerg or force the zerg to continue unit production in a further attempt to wear down the T/P's defense. Either way, the mass drone production isn't nearly as easy for the zerg.
You are missing the opint, because if the z scouts with their overlord that there is no early pressure from T/P, then there is no hydra or ling break. It all goes to drones, and the zerg is far far ahead.
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Calgary25966 Posts
Also, consider this:
Because you have 7 larvae, you out-worker protoss or terran.
Because you have 7 larvae, you out-produce protoss or terran in basic units.
If we look at the purest of early game options, protoss and terran have 3 "builds" they can do: 1 rax, 2 rax, 3 rax and 1 gate, 2 gate, 3 gate. If terran and protoss invest in those buildings, they aren't going to help their economy at all - they've commited to them. Going back is not really an option. Zerg can slide back and forth between 7 larvae on workers and 7 larvae on basic units. That's the point of the imbalance. In SC this was balanced because there was quite a buildup before you got to 7 larvae (2.3 hatches), but that limitation is gone now in SC2. 2 hatches yield 14 larvae (nearly 5 BW hatches). That's scary! And those 14 larvae can seemlessly switch between workers and attacking units.
If I BBS in starcraft, I've sacrifised economy for military. If I could suddenly use those barracks to build SCVs, that would seem pretty imbalanced. That's the power Zerg's been given in SC2.
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Why are people so fixated on this issue? Beta is going to last months. Fixes like these, once beta is underway, are so simple to roll out. Do the people invested in this issue think Blizzard would leave obvious imbalances like this in at ship? It's seems this issue is so popular because it's an outlet for the community to show their superior game knowledge and intelligence over Blizzard developers.
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On September 11 2009 08:16 Scooge wrote:
Why are people so fixated on this issue? Beta is going to last months. Fixes like these, once beta is underway, are so simple to roll out. Do the people invested in this issue think Blizzard would leave obvious imbalances like this in at ship? It's seems this issue is so popular because it's an outlet for the community to show their superior game knowledge and intelligence over Blizzard developers.
Your post has an element of truth to it, but mostly it's incorrect... people are excited about the game. Starcraft is what it is because of it's balance, and the responses so far do make it look like Blizzard is unfamiliar with the core of the issue. So why not talk about it? Make a thread if you've got something more interesting to talk about.
Additionally, no one has really had enough time with the game to talk about anything other than the first few minutes with any depth.
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United States42091 Posts
This topic has a depressing amount of people not reading the issues at hand thoroughly, apparently Karune included.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 11 2009 08:16 Scooge wrote:
Why are people so fixated on this issue? Beta is going to last months. Fixes like these, once beta is underway, are so simple to roll out. Do the people invested in this issue think Blizzard would leave obvious imbalances like this in at ship? It's seems this issue is so popular because it's an outlet for the community to show their superior game knowledge and intelligence over Blizzard developers.
Of course Blizzard wouldn't leave something like this in for ship IF it's actually a problem.
For me, I'm posting because
1 - There's not a lot else to talk about at the moment.
2 - The responses we have gotten so far, seem to miss the point. Yes, you can defend an all-in attack - but what about the denial of scouting and multitude of Zerg tech options?
It's very likely not as big of a problem as it seems, and if it is it will be patched, but it's fun to talk about anyway.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Sigh, i'll just wait for Chill to post his article. A lot of misunderstanding in this thread :\
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10387 Posts
so the title should be renamed Karune explains how T or P counters 1hatch Hydra/zerg, not 1 hatch queen..
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I'm not saying you guys shouldnt talk about this.. I'm just saying it makes little sense for blizzard to fix this stuff until after beta starts.
It's possible the guys at PAX and blizzcon missed some things that could be used to counter everything done with the zerg 1-hatch. Also, I think all of you could do a much better job critiquing and coming up with real solutions if you were free to play the game continuously for more than 1-2 days. I say talk away, and enjoy the conversations... But don't expect blizzard to answer questions based on perceived imbalances when everything is subject to change and should change only after beta starts.
I'm just saying don't expect the little things to be balanced until after beta, and I consider this a little thing. Yes, it is sounding like its OP. However, you can make changes such as making larvae injection spawn only 2 or 3 larva at a time, or change how much energy is required to do this, or possibly add increased cost to units that come from these special larva making the larva different again. Theres a lot that can be done about this, and I think a lot of it is easy to add into the game. I think the best way to find the best fixes is by changing things during beta, and seeing what those changes do and how they effect the game. It's pretty hard to test the changes you make if you don't actually have many people doing the testing.
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I don't think it's finding the counter that's the problem, it's knowing what to counter.
Finding out how to scout seems to be the problem. It sounds like you need to hide 4 workers around the map near the start of the game or something =/
Thus hot_bid's constant use of the words "coin flip."
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Although I understand the main point of the discussion and absolutely agree that it is a legitimate concern, there is something I cannot figure out at the moment.
If Zerg is powering Drones, how exactly does he fend off early harass (not rush,harass)? I mean if P/T does not feel any pressure at the front, wouldn`t that prompt him to try and put pressure on the Z instead? Even with more larva, the basic exchange nature of Larvae of not being able to pump economy while producing units still applies and Zerg will have to eventually expand (if not for any other reason, then beacuse he reached full saturation in his original base).
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On September 11 2009 06:21 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 04:09 Santrega wrote:On September 11 2009 04:02 TheYango wrote:
There's no way they could address the issue of balance if they aren't even looking at it from the right angle. The only problem with that is, they arent looking to address the issue of balance unless its a huge problem. If it isnt painfully obvious, it doesnt need to be fixed until after beta comes out. If you go fixing things now before people really have a chance to test it, you are just going to end up re-fixing everything, which is basically both a waste of time and resources, and also not very smart. They only need to make sure the core of the game is balanced before beta, as in the only thing left is tweaking of unit attributes, build times, and cost. I believe most of the problems with zerg found in that article can be fixed with minor tweaks, and really don't require a response, nor any further development time before beta. If people who have never played SC2 before are ale to beat some of the best Blizzard players, then the build is clearly OP. That's what happened at PAX.
Except people tried it against Karune, and he was undefeated.
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i can see a lot of mind games zerg can play
zerg can safely mass a few drones and have lings ready for a backstab. which would make the T/P have to stay at base since their armies are less mobile.
somebody said units should move faster downhill and slower uphill.
go outside and try running down a ramp. you'll notice its harder to run down than up so going up/down ramps would be slow both ways.
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Am I the only one that thinks it'd be good to fix major issues BEFORE the beta? This way people won't be bitching as much about the viability of something like 1 hatch hydra and instead the little nuances in the game will be magnified that much more.
Less time trying to fix major changes means more time noticing subtle imbalances.
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Ok here is just one example of my problem with that thread...
Couple that with the better chase AI and ranged Queen attack, the enemy scout almost always dies before they can see what my extra 4 larvae spawn.
Can't they see what buildings you have? Why do they need to see what your larva spawn... If you have a den, or a pool, doesnt that give its own clue to what you are building..
Or is the queen standing at the entrance waiting for workers to come in and kills them before they can see what buildings you have? Also, can't blizzard just change how effective the queen is against workers... :-/ I just dont see why this is a huge issue, even the author of that article felt it may not be so OP, and maybe there is something they missed...
Am I the only one that thinks it'd be good to fix major issues BEFORE the beta? This way people won't be bitching as much about the viability of something like 1 hatch hydra and instead the little nuances in the game will be magnified that much more.
Less time trying to fix major changes means more time noticing subtle imbalances.
The only thing I want to know is what makes this a major issue?
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On September 11 2009 09:06 Santrega wrote:Ok here is just one example of my problem with that thread... Show nested quote +Couple that with the better chase AI and ranged Queen attack, the enemy scout almost always dies before they can see what my extra 4 larvae spawn. Can't they see what buildings you have? Why do they need to see what your larva spawn... If you have a den, or a pool, doesnt that give its own clue to what you are building... How does seeing an opponents spawning pool help you at all with scouting? I think it's safe to assume every zerg is going to make a spawning pool.
The idea is spawning pool -> 6 lings, and then you're in the dark. At this point he might be massing lings, going for hydras, or powering on econ. It's entirely possible for you to counter any of those options, but very difficult for you to know which one he's doing.
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The only thing I want to know is what makes this a major issue?
Wow, you only have 200 posts to choose from on that one 
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Sanya12364 Posts
On September 11 2009 09:06 Santrega wrote:Ok here is just one example of my problem with that thread... Show nested quote +Couple that with the better chase AI and ranged Queen attack, the enemy scout almost always dies before they can see what my extra 4 larvae spawn. Can't they see what buildings you have? Why do they need to see what your larva spawn... If you have a den, or a pool, doesnt that give its own clue to what you are building.. Or is the queen standing at the entrance waiting for workers to come in and kills them before they can see what buildings you have? Also, can't blizzard just change how effective the queen is against workers... :-/ I just dont see why this is a huge issue, even the author of that article felt it may not be so OP, and maybe there is something they missed... Show nested quote +Am I the only one that thinks it'd be good to fix major issues BEFORE the beta? This way people won't be bitching as much about the viability of something like 1 hatch hydra and instead the little nuances in the game will be magnified that much more.
Less time trying to fix major changes means more time noticing subtle imbalances. The only thing I want to know is what makes this a major issue?
First of all you'll never even come close to seeing a Zerg's tech buildings with the new ling pathing AI. Also have you every played against a zerg with lots of larva? Knowing whether they're powering drones or massing an army is crucial. A zerg could be powering economy and teching if all you saw were the buildings.
What makes this a major issue? Zerg might be the only viable race? That'd be boring to ZvZ all the time.
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Except people tried it against Karune, and he was undefeated.
The people I saw use it against him weren't doing it very well. I woulda beat him :D
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On September 11 2009 09:16 Grendor wrote:Wow, you only have 200 posts to choose from on that one
Define Major issue, in your opinion..
On September 11 2009 09:21 TanGeng wrote:
First of all you'll never even come close to seeing a Zerg's tech buildings with the new ling pathing AI. Also have you every played against a zerg with lots of larva? Knowing whether they're powering drones or massing an army is crucial. A zerg could be powering economy and teching if all you saw were the buildings.
What makes this a major issue? Zerg might be the only viable race? That'd be boring to ZvZ all the time.
Can't you find out if they are making drones or an army by attacking? If they are massing drones when you attack its GG... if they are making an army its ww3.. ok? I'm still missing the point i guess..
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Sanya12364 Posts
On September 11 2009 09:23 Santrega wrote:
Can't you find out if they are making drones or an army by attacking? If they are massing drones when you attack its GG... if they are making an army its ww3.. ok? I'm still missing the point i guess..
No because the Zerg will have ling outside your base, overlords nearby. The Z will scout you, see you coming a mile away, build up an army to counter yours and annihilate you in the field. If the Z powers economy, he'll be probably be on 2 bases and have 14 larva to work with when a P or T moves out. Those larva are more than enough to destroy any army that gets sent.
You move out to attack = You lose and GG. Good luck with that one.
And if a P or T delays for a larger army, the Z's advantage only gets bigger and bigger. Wait for one round of larva and 14 drones and maybe another expansion gets plopped down. Besides, Z will have some idea of how large your army is if he tests your defense once in a while. All the Z has to do is remain in striking distance of your army and he can rapidly switch over to military when it becomes necessary.
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On September 11 2009 09:36 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 09:23 Santrega wrote:
Can't you find out if they are making drones or an army by attacking? If they are massing drones when you attack its GG... if they are making an army its ww3.. ok? I'm still missing the point i guess.. No because the Zerg will have ling outside your base, overlords nearby. The Z will scout you, see you coming a mile away, build up an army to counter yours and annihilate you in the field. If the Z powers economy, he'll be probably be on 2 bases and have 14 larva to work with when a P or T moves out. Those larva are more than enough to destroy any army that gets sent. You move out to attack = You lose and GG. Good luck with that one.
Ok, here is the thing...
There are a 2 smaller problems that I see grouped together in a way that some of you think its a major issue.
It sounds like these are the individual problems
1) Queen kills workers too easily
2) Zerg is producing too fast with the 4 extra larva
Fixes:
1) Give Queens reduced damage against all workers or make its range even smaller.
2) Give a resource cost to larva injection, or increase the time it takes for the extra larva to come down, or decrease the amount of larva.
You can also give workers more health or more armor against lings, marines, and zealots, and decrease the damage they can do to compensate. This would make them more effective scouters.
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One possibility is that to hold the contain a 1 hatch zerg has to pump units. As soon as the zerg stops and switches to drones the terran or protoss could have more units and break out. Alternatively the P or Z can hold the ramp with a small number of troops and pour resources into teching. Zerg may have created a bunch of drones but its not going to help if my reapers come in and D8 them to hell.
As far as the "In the dark" issue the Orbital Command allows you to Scanner Sweep fairly early.
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On September 11 2009 03:17 PokePill wrote:
Karune was like a 45% War3 player (Call him D-) when he played in games vs BNet forumers (who are like D+ equivalents), why would he be any better at a more difficult game (SC2). His opinion on game balance is completely worthless, and by the way, we are still waiting for the patch and map pool changes he promised to us on the forums in 2007.
But I mean it is nice to see the COMMUNITY MANAGER post a few times every couple of months with the COMMUNITY.
He's just like some random bystander that works there as far as I'm concerned.
I'm sure there are janitors that work at the offices that have more valuable input.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101510
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From Karune
"Scouting is much easier now in StarCraft II for various reasons including earlier Observers (without the prerequisite Observatory building as in the original StarCraft), more mobile units like Reapers/Colossi/Stalkers/Medivacs (more incentive now to build these than original StarCraft since they double up as medics). All of these methods of scouting will be available by mid-game and be useful from then on. Before mid game - SCVs and probes are sufficient to scout. Once Zergling speed gets upgraded, there may be a small window of more difficult scouting, but honestly, that window is much smaller than say playing against a Terran player that blocks you out completely. Additionally, Terran still have scan and Protoss still can go fast air to scout and harass Overlords.
Also mentioned in my previous post, these were just a few ways to deal with the 1 hatch threat. There are definitely ways to build your base without blocking the choke, but I have found blocking it against Zerg as the best way to keep fast Zerglings out with the least amount of attention. "
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On September 11 2009 09:49 Archerofaiur wrote:
One possibility is that to hold the contain a 1 hatch zerg has to pump units. As soon as the zerg stops and switches to drones the terran or protoss could have more units and break out. Alternatively the P or Z can hold the ramp with a small number of troops and pour resources into teching. Zerg may have created a bunch of drones but its not going to help if my reapers come in and D8 them to hell.
As far as the "In the dark" issue the Orbital Command allows you to Scanner Sweep fairly early.
Yea but isn't the whole point of the larvae spawning thing the ability to pump an assload of units whenever you want to reinforce your contain?
To me it looks like the zerg is able to so fluidly switch between drone/military production that it just gives them a huge adv.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 11 2009 08:49 Santrega wrote:
I'm not saying you guys shouldnt talk about this.. I'm just saying it makes little sense for blizzard to fix this stuff until after beta starts.
Because it's not just an issue of balance, but also an issue of the viability of the macro mechanics as a whole. As is, the Queen's larva injection is the only one of the three mechanics that has any real depth. An issue with the larva injection is an issue with the mechanics as a whole.
On September 11 2009 09:43 Santrega wrote:
1) Queen kills workers too easily
This has already been addressed multiple times. The issue is not that the queen kills scouting workers, but that flawless zergling pathing makes it extremely hard to get workers past them. Queen just serves as backup if they actually get remotely close to your hatchery.
Lowering queen range doesn't fix the issue, and having to screw with how pathing works in the SC2 engine is a HUGE issue.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On September 11 2009 09:49 Archerofaiur wrote:
One possibility is that to hold the contain a 1 hatch zerg has to pump units. As soon as the zerg stops and switches to drones the terran or protoss could have more units and break out. Alternatively the P or Z can hold the ramp with a small number of troops and pour resources into teching. Zerg may have created a bunch of drones but its not going to help if my reapers come in and D8 them to hell.
As far as the "In the dark" issue the Orbital Command allows you to Scanner Sweep fairly early.
Actually if you pump units to force the zerg to maintain his contain then you will fall behind economically. The Zerg should not respond immediately. Instead once the T or P moves out into the open, the Zerg will immediately restore military superiority and either annihilate the force or reestablish the contain. I think Hot Bid thought that pumping units only causes the T or P to fall further behind.
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On September 11 2009 10:14 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 09:49 Archerofaiur wrote:
One possibility is that to hold the contain a 1 hatch zerg has to pump units. As soon as the zerg stops and switches to drones the terran or protoss could have more units and break out. Alternatively the P or Z can hold the ramp with a small number of troops and pour resources into teching. Zerg may have created a bunch of drones but its not going to help if my reapers come in and D8 them to hell.
As far as the "In the dark" issue the Orbital Command allows you to Scanner Sweep fairly early. Actually if you pump units to force the zerg to maintain his contain then you will fall behind economically. .
But thats the basis behind any contain.
I pump units then I can break your contain but im behind economically. I pump workers then I am ahead economically but oh no youve broke my contain.
Personally I think phoenix harass would be the perfect responce to 1 hatch. Your not going to be building units or drones if you dont have overlords :p
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Sanya12364 Posts
On September 11 2009 09:53 Archerofaiur wrote:
From Karune
"Scouting is much easier now in StarCraft II for various reasons including earlier Observers (without the prerequisite Observatory building as in the original StarCraft), more mobile units like Reapers/Colossi/Stalkers/Medivacs (more incentive now to build these than original StarCraft since they double up as medics). All of these methods of scouting will be available by mid-game and be useful from then on. Before mid game - SCVs and probes are sufficient to scout. Once Zergling speed gets upgraded, there may be a small window of more difficult scouting, but honestly, that window is much smaller than say playing against a Terran player that blocks you out completely. Additionally, Terran still have scan and Protoss still can go fast air to scout and harass Overlords.
Also mentioned in my previous post, these were just a few ways to deal with the 1 hatch threat. There are definitely ways to build your base without blocking the choke, but I have found blocking it against Zerg as the best way to keep fast Zerglings out with the least amount of attention. "
The impression that I got was that these kinds of mid-game scouting methods are still too late. The T or P would already have to invest in tier one defenses for the possibility that the hydra or ling push comes. It wouldn't help to get mid-game scouts just to find out that you're hopelessly behind.
I pump units then I can break your contain but im behind economically. I pump workers then I am ahead economically but oh no youve broke my contain.
But you only temporarily break the contain. The Z will reestablish at will. His larva will outproduce you.
Personally I think phoenix harass would be the perfect responce to 1 hatch. Your not going to be building units or drones if you dont have overlords
It'll have to be see if that works. I'm skeptical since I think that getting to phoenix would be responded to with an immediate hydra break since it would suggest that there is insufficient ground defenses.
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On September 11 2009 10:10 TheYango wrote:Because it's not just an issue of balance, but also an issue of the viability of the macro mechanics as a whole. As is, the Queen's larva injection is the only one of the three mechanics that has any real depth. An issue with the larva injection is an issue with the mechanics as a whole. This has already been addressed multiple times. The issue is not that the queen kills scouting workers, but that flawless zergling pathing makes it extremely hard to get workers past them. Queen just serves as backup if they actually get remotely close to your hatchery. Lowering queen range doesn't fix the issue, and having to screw with how pathing works in the SC2 engine is a HUGE issue.
This really sounds like a sneak attack on the better pathing. I understand that micro has been taken away from you guys, and for most of the incredible pro SC players. I understand that you guys want your opponents units to not perfectly do things on their own, to raise the skill gap.
However, this is a problem that doesnt need to be fixed by pathing changes. Pathing doesn't need to be made less perfect so that you can have an easier time getting peons past zerglings.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 11 2009 10:34 Santrega wrote:
This really sounds like a sneak attack on the better pathing. I understand that micro has been taken away from you guys, and for most of the incredible pro SC players. I understand that you guys want your opponents units to not perfectly do things on their own, to raise the skill gap.
However, this is a problem that doesnt need to be fixed by pathing changes. Pathing doesn't need to be made less perfect so that you can have an easier time getting peons past zerglings.
That wasn't what I was implying at all.
Having the period of being in the dark is fine. Having the probe easy to kill is fine. My point is though that it takes more than a few simple thoughts to fix the issue, because the most logical fix is one that many people won't like, and requires an engine overhaul. The issue of the queen right now isn't just a "minor balance change". If they sit down to change it, it potentially requires reworking how the entire zerg early game works (obviously that's a worst-case scenario, but one that needs to be accounted for)--which is why it needs to be addressed now. Beta is where numbers get tweaked, and a few things get moved around, not where units get added and removed and game mechanics get changed.
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Good:
1 All karuna considerations imply a similar level of play.
2 Thus they imply an equal use of macro.
3 The macro zerg is easier to abuse the terran and protoss, so it is easy to understand that you were using the zerg at most, and the Terrans and the Protoss were not perfectly using their macros. Cause I say that ????? pq they improved zerg macro changes in the last showing , what shows that internally the zerg this weaker.
Thus it is clear that it is good to speculate ..... but this topic is getting out of hand.
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On September 11 2009 10:55 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 10:34 Santrega wrote:
This really sounds like a sneak attack on the better pathing. I understand that micro has been taken away from you guys, and for most of the incredible pro SC players. I understand that you guys want your opponents units to not perfectly do things on their own, to raise the skill gap.
However, this is a problem that doesnt need to be fixed by pathing changes. Pathing doesn't need to be made less perfect so that you can have an easier time getting peons past zerglings.
That wasn't what I was implying at all. Having the period of being in the dark is fine. Having the probe easy to kill is fine. My point is though that it takes more than a few simple thoughts to fix the issue, because the most logical fix is one that many people won't like, and requires an engine overhaul. The issue of the queen right now isn't just a "minor balance change". If they sit down to change it, it potentially requires reworking how the entire zerg early game works (obviously that's a worst-case scenario, but one that needs to be accounted for)--which is why it needs to be addressed now. Beta is where numbers get tweaked, and a few things get moved around, not where units get added and removed and game mechanics get changed.
I would think if you say "the most logical fix", you would actually say what you think is the most logical fix... Did I somehow miss that in your post?
If you weren't implying that the pathing should be made less perfect, what is it that you are implying?
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I guess I was not clear. imagine this:
You in 1998 is a fanatic for rts.Assim you purchase 1 star right out of the game. His brother a twat, says the game sucks and would rather play an FPS. So if 2 years pass.
Any day his brother comes up to you and says he wants to play 1 star and purchase the game. So 2 days after that get the game, you play a game and you, experienced it 20 wins in a row. He indignantly says that the game is poorly balence and curses all. You a player d- in ICCup is very happy and back to routine losses.
Gave to understand now?
Karuna = brother playing 1 star since early
TL = younger brother who plays the 2 days, compared with at least 2 years, and think have found the holy grail.
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too much theorycrafting going around. i really dont expect the game to be balanaced when it comes out, nor close to it. all i want is a polished product ie no gamebreaking bugs, crashes, or exploits (which seems to be going along well given how much time theyre putting into this). the unit balancing and gameflow changes, that can come along with the patches, which i expect there will be a number of (as it was with brood war before it became so balanced)
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Guys...a lot of the responses in this thread are just plain theorycrafting. You haven't played the game; you just don't know these things...Karune may very well be wrong, or at least underestimating the problem. But he certainly knows more than most of the people in this thread.
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10387 Posts
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST.
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On September 11 2009 11:17 lipebra wrote:
I guess I was not clear. imagine this:
You in 1998 is a fanatic for rts.Assim you purchase 1 star right out of the game. His brother a twat, says the game sucks and would rather play an FPS. So if 2 years pass.
Any day his brother comes up to you and says he wants to play 1 star and purchase the game. So 2 days after that get the game, you play a game and you, experienced it 20 wins in a row. He indignantly says that the game is poorly balence and curses all. You a player d- in ICCup is very happy and back to routine losses.
Gave to understand now?
Karuna = brother playing 1 star since early
TL = younger brother who plays the 2 days, compared with at least 2 years, and think have found the holy grail.
Um, you assumed that SC2 was balanced in your analogy. Which is the point of the discussion. Also, you said that the 20 wins was just an anomaly. Which was also the point of the discussion.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 11 2009 11:06 Santrega wrote:
I would think if you say "the most logical fix", you would actually say what you think is the most logical fix... Did I somehow miss that in your post?
The problem with the queen as stated by some was that since workers can't watch what the Zerg is doing, the zerg has huge informational versatility. The fix suggested (reducing queen range) doesn't actually fix the issue (since zerglings deal with workers just fine anyway. The "logical fix" is to make unit pathing worse, to allow workers to get around more easily. My point is that this fix is obviously not a viable solution for a multitude of reasons, despite the fact that it deals with the immediate problem of the queen's power.
You can't just say "we'll make the queen weaker by toning down some numbers" and be done with it. That's not the issue with the mechanic. Since the queen potentially requires overhauling the zerg early game and revamping the tech tree (especially in conjunction with their current midgame woes), it's not a "minor balance change" and should be dealt with BEFORE the game gets to the beta stage.
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On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST.
And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones
or
The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units.
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10387 Posts
On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units.
Going for a Reaper/phoenix tech build is an autoloss to any type of 1-hatch break play I would think, so doing so is extremely risky and most of the time not rewarding. Not only that, those units are a little bit up the tech tree, so by the time any Reapers/Phoenix come, its assumed that the Zerg player would've had more than enough time to build a Hydra Den and produce Hydras, while still having an excess of drones and a booming economy.
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On September 11 2009 09:53 Archerofaiur wrote:
From Karune
"Scouting is much easier now in StarCraft II for various reasons including earlier Observers (without the prerequisite Observatory building as in the original StarCraft), more mobile units like Reapers/Colossi/Stalkers/Medivacs (more incentive now to build these than original StarCraft since they double up as medics). All of these methods of scouting will be available by mid-game and be useful from then on. Before mid game - SCVs and probes are sufficient to scout. Once Zergling speed gets upgraded, there may be a small window of more difficult scouting, but honestly, that window is much smaller than say playing against a Terran player that blocks you out completely. Additionally, Terran still have scan and Protoss still can go fast air to scout and harass Overlords.
Also mentioned in my previous post, these were just a few ways to deal with the 1 hatch threat. There are definitely ways to build your base without blocking the choke, but I have found blocking it against Zerg as the best way to keep fast Zerglings out with the least amount of attention. "
Karune says scouting is easier in SC2. He says that SCVs and Probes are sufficient to scout early on. Why does this sound like the opposite of what everyone else at PAX said, with the improved Zergling AI pathing/Queen making scouting Zerg much more difficult?
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On September 11 2009 03:33 Chill wrote:
He has no idea what he's talking about (as in he's completely and totally missed the issue) and I will be releasing an article soon addressing this nonsense.
PLEASE hurry. This shit has got to stop. Blizzard dev dodges a question by answering another question, and everyone gets excited about it.
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On September 11 2009 12:21 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. Going for a Reaper/phoenix tech build is an autoloss to any type of 1-hatch break play I would think, so doing so is extremely risky and most of the time not rewarding. Not only that, those units are a little bit up the tech tree, so by the time any Reapers/Phoenix come, its assumed that the Zerg player would've had more than enough time to build a Hydra Den and produce Hydras, while still having an excess of drones and a booming economy.
Nah ah I hit you first! Your dead!
No seriously I had an invisible shield. No your dead not me! MOOOMMMM!!!!
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On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units.
By that time zerg
has overrun you because you had to tech and defend from harrass, where as zerg had to make virtually no sacrifices because of increased production
or
has higher tech than you because you didn't produce enough units to be a threat to him, leaving zerg free to tech and expand like crazy, there for fending off your measly attack with hard counter units
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Maybe scouting with 1 SCV not viable, then how bout sacrifice the economy a bit and send 2 at once?
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Pretty horrible "counter" -.-
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Calgary25966 Posts
On September 11 2009 12:29 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 03:33 Chill wrote:
He has no idea what he's talking about (as in he's completely and totally missed the issue) and I will be releasing an article soon addressing this nonsense. PLEASE hurry. This shit has got to stop. Blizzard dev dodges a question by answering another question, and everyone gets excited about it.
It's written, but after this round of discussion I'm really trying to solidify my argument. Should be released tomorrow.
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I think Chill and Karune should have a debate.
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Karune has been trolling the WarCraft community for a few years now, you just have to learn to accept it.
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On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units.
Yeah, that might possibly work somehow... if you knew that he was powering drones instead of building a huge army. That's the point of the discussion.
I find it harder and harder to believe you are not a troll. In all of your comments on the subject, you ignore pieces of the puzzle that disagree with what you are saying, and you cherry-pick pieces of others' arguments to disagree with them. Look at the post that you quoted up here and see if you can't find the part that you ignored/didn't respond to at all - the part of the post which states the crux of the issue.
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I'm pretty sure any balance issues from 1 hatch queen will be fixed during beta. Please try to stop bashing Karune
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On September 11 2009 13:03 Archerofaiur wrote:
I think Chill and Karune should have a debate.
A game, or better yet a BO3 series would be far more entertaining and informative.
+ Show Spoiler +That said, Chill's side of the story makes MUCH more sense to me. I have not played the game so yes, this is theorycraft based on people's feedback, vods and unit stats available online. At any rate, here's my 5 step summary:
1. After getting a spawning pool zergs can make a queen for 100 minerals, which takes 25 seconds.
2. The queen "injection" of 4 extra larvae every time it gets 25 energy effectively turns one hatch into the equivalent of 2.5 hatches.
3. 2.5 hatches >>> anything P or T can throw at them in both unit and/or drone production, or anything in between.
4. Zerg also has a big early scouting advantage and can switch seamlessly between unit and/or drone production, as needed.
5. GG.
Zerg has no reason to ever use a different BO (for example a 2 hatch opening would be slower in every way). If T or P go for defense, as suggested by Karune, Z can double or triple expand and saturate bases very fast. Each new hatchery gets another queen for100 minerals. Simply taking natural expo = equivalent of 5 hatcheries for very little resources.
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On September 11 2009 09:03 Catch]22 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 06:21 maybenexttime wrote:On September 11 2009 04:09 Santrega wrote:On September 11 2009 04:02 TheYango wrote:
There's no way they could address the issue of balance if they aren't even looking at it from the right angle. The only problem with that is, they arent looking to address the issue of balance unless its a huge problem. If it isnt painfully obvious, it doesnt need to be fixed until after beta comes out. If you go fixing things now before people really have a chance to test it, you are just going to end up re-fixing everything, which is basically both a waste of time and resources, and also not very smart. They only need to make sure the core of the game is balanced before beta, as in the only thing left is tweaking of unit attributes, build times, and cost. I believe most of the problems with zerg found in that article can be fixed with minor tweaks, and really don't require a response, nor any further development time before beta. If people who have never played SC2 before are ale to beat some of the best Blizzard players, then the build is clearly OP. That's what happened at PAX. Except people tried it against Karune, and he was undefeated.
The best zerg I saw Karune play against was a loud, talkative fellow who expressed many opinions on vanilla starcraft while in line.
Opinions such as:
Carriers were unbeatable except by ghosts, who were way too good because of lockdown.
3 Zealots were all you needed to keep your opponent busy while you got a mass of carriers.
The computer was imbalanced in starcraft because it microed perfectly.
I dare say he wasn't hard pressed to run rampant over the Pax zergs. I wish I had seen him go up against one of the TL readers who at least understood the theory behind 1hatQ. I have no doubt that he still would have crushed us due to his superior skill and our lack of sc2 experience but at least we'd have been able to see some of his theories in action, or confirm the imbalance if he happened to have a tough match against a sc2 newbie using the build. The few of us who had read the theory behind why 1hatQ was so powerful mostly got matched up against the beta-key pinata Cydra. ^ ^
My friend who ended up getting a key later in the day abusing the build as well had a simple suggestion about how to tone down zerg's early game while still allowing them to get full use out of inject-larvae mid-late game where they are supposedly weak.
Inject-Larvae provides:
2 larvae at Hatchery tech
3 larvae at Lair tech
4 larvae at Hive tech
I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark?
With hydras at tier 1 now, there is no need for the queen to be an anti-air unit until Lair tech, and the removal of it's ranged attack until Lair would at least slightly lessen zerg's anti-scouting abilities early game. I'm fairly certain it's ranged attack is just an archaic necessity of when zerg had no anti-air until Lair.
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The larva spawn rate was nerfed in SC1 too. In early builds (pre 1.04 I think, maybe up until 1.08) the spawn rate was much higher. Seems like they had the same problems with SC1.
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10387 Posts
On September 11 2009 14:47 Konni wrote:
The larva spawn rate was nerfed in SC1 too. In early builds (pre 1.04 I think, maybe up until 1.08) the spawn rate was much higher. Seems like they had the same problems with SC1.
That would be easily fixed, but the biggest issue is how 1 Queen + 6 lings shut down scouting really early and how T/P are forced to play in the dark until mid-game, which by then are probably behind. Six zerglings will shut down any further scouting past the initial worker, apparently due to insanely good pathfinding.
The real solution I think lies in being able to allow the worker survive to the point where T/P can deduce what the Zerg is doing, like in PvZ. Slow down the speed of the zergling so that the worker can stay alive scouting in the Zerg's base off the creep, but not so much where the worker runs complete circles around the Zerglings. Normal zerglings do not need to be very quick anyways, since the speed upgrade is guaranteed to be upgarded soon anyways.
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Karune is trying to downplay this like it is the SC2 equivalent of a SC1 4 pool
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On September 11 2009 14:34 CauthonLuck wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 09:03 Catch]22 wrote:On September 11 2009 06:21 maybenexttime wrote:On September 11 2009 04:09 Santrega wrote:On September 11 2009 04:02 TheYango wrote:
There's no way they could address the issue of balance if they aren't even looking at it from the right angle. The only problem with that is, they arent looking to address the issue of balance unless its a huge problem. If it isnt painfully obvious, it doesnt need to be fixed until after beta comes out. If you go fixing things now before people really have a chance to test it, you are just going to end up re-fixing everything, which is basically both a waste of time and resources, and also not very smart. They only need to make sure the core of the game is balanced before beta, as in the only thing left is tweaking of unit attributes, build times, and cost. I believe most of the problems with zerg found in that article can be fixed with minor tweaks, and really don't require a response, nor any further development time before beta. If people who have never played SC2 before are ale to beat some of the best Blizzard players, then the build is clearly OP. That's what happened at PAX. Except people tried it against Karune, and he was undefeated. The best zerg I saw Karune play against was a loud, talkative fellow who expressed many opinions on vanilla starcraft while in line. Opinions such as: Carriers were unbeatable except by ghosts, who were way too good because of lockdown. 3 Zealots were all you needed to keep your opponent busy while you got a mass of carriers. The computer was imbalanced in starcraft because it microed perfectly. I dare say he wasn't hard pressed to run rampant over the Pax zergs. I wish I had seen him go up against one of the TL readers who at least understood the theory behind 1hatQ. I have no doubt that he still would have crushed us due to his superior skill and our lack of sc2 experience but at least we'd have been able to see some of his theories in action, or confirm the imbalance if he happened to have a tough match against a sc2 newbie using the build. The few of us who had read the theory behind why 1hatQ was so powerful mostly got matched up against the beta-key pinata Cydra. ^ ^ My friend who ended up getting a key later in the day abusing the build as well had a simple suggestion about how to tone down zerg's early game while still allowing them to get full use out of inject-larvae mid-late game where they are supposedly weak. Inject-Larvae provides: 2 larvae at Hatchery tech 3 larvae at Lair tech 4 larvae at Hive tech I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark? With hydras at tier 1 now, there is no need for the queen to be an anti-air unit until Lair tech, and the removal of it's ranged attack until Lair would at least slightly lessen zerg's anti-scouting abilities early game. I'm fairly certain it's ranged attack is just an archaic necessity of when zerg had no anti-air until Lair.
That guy was horrible and we were all laughing at him and his feeble attempts at playing. Well him and super mullet boy who played with 1 hand and didn't think it odd...
The thing we were able to see was zergs using it vs Bob (who I think is Cydra) who admitted to be a lot worse then Karune, and still getting stomped every time. I think it's just similar to old BW, where strats everyone thought were OP got countered hard by simply knowing the game and the timings a bit better. Just give it time...
edit: on a side note, which of the guys was your friend?
There were 4 people to win keys that day:
1- Goatarope who was wearing a SKT1 jersey signed by Bisu who won vs the zerg in a ling rush
2- another dude who beat the zerg with a ling rush
3- Guy who said he was C+ who beat the toss who only played 1 game
4- Myself, I have fading red hair and beat the terran in a long game ending with ultras
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ok simply, make always bunker rush...
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Sanya12364 Posts
/facepalm
ugh - It's like people don't understand smart warfare. The threat of attacking and what needs to be done to respond to that threat is more important than the actual attack.
Anyways, while TL might not have such a good understanding the strategic aspects of SC2, it's apparent the SC2 devs and admins understand it even less. Please release your article Chill.
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On September 11 2009 12:32 emperorchampion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. By that time zerg has overrun you because you had to tech and defend from harrass, where as zerg had to make virtually no sacrifices because of increased production or has higher tech than you because you didn't produce enough units to be a threat to him, leaving zerg free to tech and expand like crazy, there for fending off your measly attack with hard counter units
u can make a bunker and even if the enemy have 30 ling,he can't break anything, with scv repairing behind the bunker...
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On September 11 2009 13:03 Archerofaiur wrote:
I think Chill and Karune should have a debate.
Agreed. From what I've read, I'm pretty certain Karune knows the 1-hatch queen build well and is able to counter it well enough. He just hasn't been able to convince TL.net as to how exactly you do it, and why it works.
For instance, he says that scouting really isn't a big deal because soon after your first scouting probe dies, you can have an air unit (observer or phoenix) in the Zerg's base. Are those timings right? If they are, then scouting may not be as hard as some make it out to be, in which case you're not committed to a coin flip.
Karune also places a lot of importance on Disruptors and how the Protoss micro'es them- something that hasn't been discussed at length on this site, and partly (IMO) because Force Field is an ability you need to get a feel for by playing a lot of games, otherwise you won't really know its impact.
Due to the fact that Karune plays a lot of SC2 and can is able to fight against a 1-hatch queen build well enough (whether executed by fans or other Blizzard staff members), I believe him when he says that T and P are not at a significant disadvantage against a Zerg that goes for a 1-hatch queen strat. Due to the fact that, unlike Chill, Karune doesn't moderate a strategy forum on a site like TL.net, I don't think Karune can succinctly explain as well and in as much detail as we'd like the nuances of early and midgame play vs. a 1-hatch queen build.
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On September 11 2009 21:36 Amph wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 12:32 emperorchampion wrote:On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. By that time zerg has overrun you because you had to tech and defend from harrass, where as zerg had to make virtually no sacrifices because of increased production or has higher tech than you because you didn't produce enough units to be a threat to him, leaving zerg free to tech and expand like crazy, there for fending off your measly attack with hard counter units u can make a bunker and even if the enemy have 30 ling,he can't break anything, with scv repairing behind the bunker...
Why would the zerg make more lings if the terran has successfully walled? He would just mass drones and/or tech.
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On September 11 2009 13:47 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. Yeah, that might possibly work somehow... if you knew that he was powering drones instead of building a huge army. That's the point of the discussion. I find it harder and harder to believe you are not a troll. In all of your comments on the subject, you ignore pieces of the puzzle that disagree with what you are saying, and you cherry-pick pieces of others' arguments to disagree with them. Look at the post that you quoted up here and see if you can't find the part that you ignored/didn't respond to at all - the part of the post which states the crux of the issue.
Its always nice being called a troll by someone with 47 posts.
Anyway if your wondering why I havnt responded to some of his comments its because I havnt played the game to know the exact specifics. I am relying on information from people who have played the game. I have theories. For instance you think hes mass drones and you tech reapers and you get there and see that he has actually massed hydras. So you do what economic damage you can and when he comes at your base you have bunkers and siege tanks ready. And as soon as the hydras leave to attack you you hit his hatchery with your reapers.
Do I know exactly how it works? No this is all theorycrafting. But I do know that Karune has spent infinetly more time with SC2 than anyone else in this debate. And thats not a slight against Hot_Bid or Chill. I think they have valuble points that should be looked at. If I had to guess Id say the answer probably lies somewhere between Karune and Hot_Bid.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On September 11 2009 21:57 Archerofaiur wrote:
Do I know exactly how it works? No this is all theorycrafting. But I do know that Karune has spent infinetly more time with SC2 than anyone else in this debate. And thats not a slight against Hot_Bid or Chill. I think they have valuble points that should be looked at. If I had to guess Id say the answer probably lies somewhere between Karune and Hot_Bid.
You might be right that Karune has more experience with SC2 directly, but from the way that he's arguing his points, it's very apparently that he lacks RTS game sense. Because of that I would have to say that 10 hours of Hot Bid's time is far more valuable than hundreds of hours of Karune's time. Hot Bid knows what to pay attention to when learning a new RTS whereas Karune bumbles around aimlessly without knowing what to look for.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Ugh, don't you think that's making a bit too many assumptions?
For all we know, this issue might be as silly as someone coming here after playing SC for a week, and saying 5 pool is unbeatable.
No, the situation is not directly comparable, but the point I'm making is that we simply do not know yet - it could be a total non-issue. Until beta we really will not be able to say for sure, so I wish people would be a little more respectful of the people working there.
I don't know if Karune reads TL, but other Blizzard employees do, so try to keep that in mind when posting, please?
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 11 2009 22:14 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 21:57 Archerofaiur wrote:
Do I know exactly how it works? No this is all theorycrafting. But I do know that Karune has spent infinetly more time with SC2 than anyone else in this debate. And thats not a slight against Hot_Bid or Chill. I think they have valuble points that should be looked at. If I had to guess Id say the answer probably lies somewhere between Karune and Hot_Bid.
You might be right that Karune has more experience with SC2 directly, but from the way that he's arguing his points, it's very apparently that he lacks RTS game sense. Because of that I would have to say that 10 hours of Hot Bid's time is far more valuable than hundreds of hours of Karune's time. Hot Bid knows what to pay attention to when learning a new RTS whereas Karune bumbles around aimlessly without knowing what to look for.
lol this is a stupid comment. You can't back something like that up so why even say it?
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Sanya12364 Posts
On September 11 2009 22:30 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 22:14 TanGeng wrote:
You might be right that Karune has more experience with SC2 directly, but from the way that he's arguing his points, it's very apparently that he lacks RTS game sense. Because of that I would have to say that 10 hours of Hot Bid's time is far more valuable than hundreds of hours of Karune's time. Hot Bid knows what to pay attention to when learning a new RTS whereas Karune bumbles around aimlessly without knowing what to look for. lol this is a stupid comment. You can't back something like that up so why even say it?
I can't back it up? Really? This is a standard way of evaluating people for expert knowledge. Present them a problem and see if they key in on the important factors quickly. I do this all the time when interviewing people for jobs.
As for Hot Bid's time being more valuable than Karune's by orders of magnitude, that is born out by practical experience. Thing about this for a minute. Whose strategic sense for SC II would be stronger: Karune's after 2000 hours or a profession SC player's after 20 hours?
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On September 11 2009 21:41 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 21:36 Amph wrote:On September 11 2009 12:32 emperorchampion wrote:On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. By that time zerg has overrun you because you had to tech and defend from harrass, where as zerg had to make virtually no sacrifices because of increased production or has higher tech than you because you didn't produce enough units to be a threat to him, leaving zerg free to tech and expand like crazy, there for fending off your measly attack with hard counter units u can make a bunker and even if the enemy have 30 ling,he can't break anything, with scv repairing behind the bunker... Why would the zerg make more lings if the terran has successfully walled? He would just mass drones and/or tech.
to stop reapers rush...see the guy that i have quoted, not just my post
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 11 2009 22:44 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 22:30 Kennigit wrote:On September 11 2009 22:14 TanGeng wrote:
You might be right that Karune has more experience with SC2 directly, but from the way that he's arguing his points, it's very apparently that he lacks RTS game sense. Because of that I would have to say that 10 hours of Hot Bid's time is far more valuable than hundreds of hours of Karune's time. Hot Bid knows what to pay attention to when learning a new RTS whereas Karune bumbles around aimlessly without knowing what to look for. lol this is a stupid comment. You can't back something like that up so why even say it? I can't back it up? Really? This is a standard way of evaluating people for expert knowledge. Present them a problem and see if they key in on the important factors quickly. I do this all the time when interviewing people for jobs. As for Hot Bid's time being more valuable than Karune's by orders of magnitude, that is born out by practical experience. Thing about this for a minute. Whose strategic sense for SC II would be stronger: Karune's after 2000 hours or a profession SC player's after 20 hours?
Hotbid is anything but a professional player.He stipulated immediately that he may be wrong and there may exist a solution which we just didn't find. The issue is you are being very absolute when everything discussed here is theory for the most part.
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On September 11 2009 22:44 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 22:30 Kennigit wrote:On September 11 2009 22:14 TanGeng wrote:
You might be right that Karune has more experience with SC2 directly, but from the way that he's arguing his points, it's very apparently that he lacks RTS game sense. Because of that I would have to say that 10 hours of Hot Bid's time is far more valuable than hundreds of hours of Karune's time. Hot Bid knows what to pay attention to when learning a new RTS whereas Karune bumbles around aimlessly without knowing what to look for. lol this is a stupid comment. You can't back something like that up so why even say it? I can't back it up? Really? This is a standard way of evaluating people for expert knowledge. Present them a problem and see if they key in on the important factors quickly. I do this all the time when interviewing people for jobs. As for Hot Bid's time being more valuable than Karune's by orders of magnitude, that is born out by practical experience. Thing about this for a minute. Whose strategic sense for SC II would be stronger: Karune's after 2000 hours or a profession SC player's after 20 hours?
I think it's rather early to decide whether or not Karune has any 'rts game sense' as you put it. Until this issue is actually discussed and not just occasionally alluded to on another forum, I find it even more absurd that you would conclude that Hot Bid playing the game for ten hours is the same or better then Karunes hundreds of hours.
Even further, IIRC, didn't the original 1 hatchery queen thread actually state that they are not calling it imbalanced because there hasn't been anywhere close to the amount of testing necessary to determine that? I will say that it's disappointing that Karune missed the big picture when replying to how you would counter this strategy.
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United States12607 Posts
I'm eagerly anticipating Chill's article.
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On September 11 2009 22:45 Amph wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 21:41 koreasilver wrote:On September 11 2009 21:36 Amph wrote:On September 11 2009 12:32 emperorchampion wrote:On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. By that time zerg has overrun you because you had to tech and defend from harrass, where as zerg had to make virtually no sacrifices because of increased production or has higher tech than you because you didn't produce enough units to be a threat to him, leaving zerg free to tech and expand like crazy, there for fending off your measly attack with hard counter units u can make a bunker and even if the enemy have 30 ling,he can't break anything, with scv repairing behind the bunker... Why would the zerg make more lings if the terran has successfully walled? He would just mass drones and/or tech. to stop reapers rush...see the guy that i have quoted, not just my post
Where did he ever say that he was going to bust through with lings because the opponent was teching? The zerg will theoretically be able to to tech faster than you and kill the reapers with its own tech units while also maintaining a superior economy.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On September 11 2009 22:53 Salv wrote:
I think it's rather early to decide whether or not Karune has any 'rts game sense' as you put it. Until this issue is actually discussed and not just occasionally alluded to on another forum, I find it even more absurd that you would conclude that Hot Bid playing the game for ten hours is the same or better then Karunes hundreds of hours.
Even further, IIRC, didn't the original 1 hatchery queen thread actually state that they are not calling it imbalanced because there hasn't been anywhere close to the amount of testing necessary to determine that? I will say that it's disappointing that Karune missed the big picture when replying to how you would counter this strategy.
Fine, I won't go a far as to say that Karune's opinion is definitely worth less than Hot Bid's at this juncture, but look at his arguments. The sign of someone skilled in a domain of expertise is that he can put all the piece together. You'd expect that person to describe a coherent strategy, mention the key factors, and to identify some key decisions to make - to tie it all together.
Karune does none of that. He's giving out fragmented pieces of knowledge like it's possible to defend against early ling and early hydra and there's units that can be used to scout in mid-game. There is nothing about strategy and nothing to tie the pieces together.
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On September 11 2009 09:06 FabledIntegral wrote:
Am I the only one that thinks it'd be good to fix major issues BEFORE the beta? This way people won't be bitching as much about the viability of something like 1 hatch hydra and instead the little nuances in the game will be magnified that much more.
Less time trying to fix major changes means more time noticing subtle imbalances.
I totally agree. We both have first hand experience with balancing an EA game, and it takes ages to balance a game. SC took years, sure now people are better and it will go faster, but also when people are better they will find more problems as well.
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On September 11 2009 23:29 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 22:53 Salv wrote:
I think it's rather early to decide whether or not Karune has any 'rts game sense' as you put it. Until this issue is actually discussed and not just occasionally alluded to on another forum, I find it even more absurd that you would conclude that Hot Bid playing the game for ten hours is the same or better then Karunes hundreds of hours.
Even further, IIRC, didn't the original 1 hatchery queen thread actually state that they are not calling it imbalanced because there hasn't been anywhere close to the amount of testing necessary to determine that? I will say that it's disappointing that Karune missed the big picture when replying to how you would counter this strategy. Fine, I won't go a far as to say that Karune's opinion is definitely worth less than Hot Bid's at this juncture, but look at his arguments. The sign of someone skilled in a domain of expertise is that he can put all the piece together. You'd expect that person to describe a coherent strategy, mention the key factors, and to identify some key decisions to make - to tie it all together. Karune does none of that. He's giving out fragmented pieces of knowledge like it's possible to defend against early ling and early hydra and there's units that can be used to scout in mid-game. There is nothing about strategy and nothing to tie the pieces together.
I agree that there is enough evidence to make the theory that Karune simply doesn't know what he is talking, but it's also possible he just misunderstood or didn't realize what the actual concern was, or the flaws in his reply.
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To the guy who said that a fast phoenix would kill all the Z's overlords... wouldn't it be just about the same as fast 1gate tech build PvZ in brood war with a fast stargate? Except that it might be necessary to get 2 gateways before tech(delaying it) and that the Zerg is able to tech a lot faster than they would normally because they don't need additional hatcheries, and are also able to gain the economic advantage. It also shouldn't be difficult to time the hydralisk den appropriately to get enough defense against the Phoenix. It'd also be a lot easier to defend because you'd be on 1 hatch instead of 2. It really seems like zvp tech build, with plenty of additional advantages for Zerg(not having to build many defensive units as early as normally because you have so much larvae that you can just build like 7 hydras reactively in the early game).
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On September 11 2009 14:34 CauthonLuck wrote:
I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark?
I quote because this is a really good and simple idea to implement.
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On September 11 2009 14:34 CauthonLuck wrote:
I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark?
I'm guessing that giving the queen an anti air attack is supposed to make ZvZ more interesting. It's hard to make any surprise moves on your opponent when you both have almost perfect scouting for the first half of the game.
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On September 12 2009 00:12 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 14:34 CauthonLuck wrote:
I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark? I'm guessing that giving the queen an anti air attack is supposed to make ZvZ more interesting. It's hard to make any surprise moves on your opponent when you both have almost perfect scouting for the first half of the game.
What does scouting matter when there is only one viable build?
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On September 12 2009 00:24 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 00:12 Luddite wrote:On September 11 2009 14:34 CauthonLuck wrote:
I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark? I'm guessing that giving the queen an anti air attack is supposed to make ZvZ more interesting. It's hard to make any surprise moves on your opponent when you both have almost perfect scouting for the first half of the game. What does scouting matter when there is only one viable build?
To see follow-up, plus whether enemy is pumping eco or making units. If you attack when he is making units then he will probably have more units than you - cause he doesn't have to care about reinforcing time. But if he pumps eco and you won't scour it - he will be ahead obviously
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On September 12 2009 00:57 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 00:24 Shikyo wrote:On September 12 2009 00:12 Luddite wrote:On September 11 2009 14:34 CauthonLuck wrote:
I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark? I'm guessing that giving the queen an anti air attack is supposed to make ZvZ more interesting. It's hard to make any surprise moves on your opponent when you both have almost perfect scouting for the first half of the game. What does scouting matter when there is only one viable build? To see follow-up, plus whether enemy is pumping eco or making units. If you attack when he is making units then he will probably have more units than you - cause he doesn't have to care about reinforcing time. But if he pumps eco and you won't scour it - he will be ahead obviously
See but thats such a simplified way of looking at it. It doesnt take into account that my siege tanks can chew through large groups of units or the effect of proton charge or the impact of cliffs on base raiding.
You are looking at one part of SC2 and putting it into the SC1 system. Then your concluding that because it would have this effect in the 2009 SC1 metagame that it will be the same for SC2.
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On September 12 2009 00:24 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 00:12 Luddite wrote:On September 11 2009 14:34 CauthonLuck wrote:
I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark? I'm guessing that giving the queen an anti air attack is supposed to make ZvZ more interesting. It's hard to make any surprise moves on your opponent when you both have almost perfect scouting for the first half of the game. What does scouting matter when there is only one viable build?
I assure you, there will never be just one viable build. If that was the case, you'd be putting SC2 at the level of other mindless RTS games' multiplayer modes. Did you ever play Dune 2 multiplayer? It sucked. There was one viable build- rush to Quad tanks, and tear down the enemy base. Whoever did so faster and more efficiently won. Do you think any SC2 matchup will be that mindless? If so, you have very little faith in game.
What I mean is: Okay, let's say 1-hatch queen is dominant in ZvZ. Well, what comes after that? Do you mass units? Do you expand? Will it depend on the map? Which units do you make? What tech do you pursue?
Even if the initial build is standardized, that doesn't mean "there is only one viable build" and scouting is irrelevant.
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On September 12 2009 00:57 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 00:24 Shikyo wrote:On September 12 2009 00:12 Luddite wrote:On September 11 2009 14:34 CauthonLuck wrote:
I'm inclined to agree that this would be a good place to start. I'd suggest, in addition, that the queen have only a melee attack until Lair, as well. I'm not sure what purpose the queen's anti air attack is supposed to have in the early game other than completely denying enemy overlord scouting and forcing everyone into doing identical builds. Even if Hatchery first didn't put you at a larvae disadvantage to the queen, would you really want your opponent knowing your tech and ling count while you were in the dark? I'm guessing that giving the queen an anti air attack is supposed to make ZvZ more interesting. It's hard to make any surprise moves on your opponent when you both have almost perfect scouting for the first half of the game. What does scouting matter when there is only one viable build? To see follow-up, plus whether enemy is pumping eco or making units. If you attack when he is making units then he will probably have more units than you - cause he doesn't have to care about reinforcing time. But if he pumps eco and you won't scour it - he will be ahead obviously
Well my point was... zvz will only have one viable build, so how will it be more interesting? Maybe they'll make one more drone than you, I guess that's an interesting match-up...
EDIT: An expansion would most likely be doomed to failure because of the 1 hatch queen. If they mass lings, you can barely make any more drones yourself. It's just mass ling on mass ling, any attempt at expanding would be destroyed by 7 larvae of lings or whatever. Or maybe I'm wrong and something interesting is found out...
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ZvZ is a good reason why blizz should bring back roaches to tier 1
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Now, if Reapers had spider mines, that would make 1hatch break a bit trickier.
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I'm not sure how people are downplaying this. It's nothing like any strategy we've seen in SC, and if there were such a thing the game wouldn't even be viable competitively. Any opening which allows for both a ridiculously strong early break or a ridiculously strong economy is simply broken. That's like opening 9pool with somehow having the option to get the economy of a 12hatch if your lings scout a safe build they can't break, but still having those early lings to deny scouting.
This isn't like saying 'ultralisks are too powerful' - where you will need significant beta testing to prove/change anything. You don't need months of beta testing to see that an idea like this creates serious problems in overall game strategy and balance.
In balanced RTS games, openings have trade-offs. What is the trade-off here?
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On September 12 2009 03:25 QibingZero wrote:
In balanced RTS games, openings have trade-offs. What is the trade-off here?
"Zerg is forced to be at a defensive if they did do the 1hatch queen strategy (key point being the 1 hatch or late expand)."
-Karune
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Huh? A lot here suggests you can be pretty offensive off a 1hatch queen build.
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On September 12 2009 03:40 Tsagacity wrote:
Huh? A lot here suggests you can be pretty offensive off a 1hatch queen build.
Maybe terran/toss are supposed to get units earlier than SC1? It is things like that which would easily get missed by any old time sc player.
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On September 12 2009 03:54 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 03:40 Tsagacity wrote:
Huh? A lot here suggests you can be pretty offensive off a 1hatch queen build. Maybe terran/toss are supposed to get units earlier than SC1? It is things like that which would easily get missed by any old time sc player. Except karune seems to also suggest walling off and waiting until mid-game to pressure a zerg with something like reapers or banshees.
The closest he came to an answer is in his follow-up saying it's a lot easier to scout because it's easier to tech to observers etc.
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We've beaten this one to death.
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On September 12 2009 03:30 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 03:25 QibingZero wrote:
In balanced RTS games, openings have trade-offs. What is the trade-off here? "Zerg is forced to be at a defensive if they did do the 1hatch queen strategy (key point being the 1 hatch or late expand)." -Karune
That's most likely totally false. Why are you forced to be defensive if you have the economic advantage and the potential army advantage, not to mention the production advantage and scouting advantage?
EDIT: Z has so many larvae that he can just mass drones against the 2gate while making barely enough lings to defend against the zealots and with his queen helping as well on top of the ramp and with the travel time and with the Z being able to pump drones 4 times faster than the Protoss... Z can soon switch into pure ling and expand and have way better economy while having an army advantage, or P can play defensively and let Z mass drones and lose economically again... It's quite crazy how Z can make what, 5 drones in the time the P can make one probe? It doesnt even take 30 seconds for Z to be way ahead.
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On September 11 2009 23:43 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 23:29 TanGeng wrote:On September 11 2009 22:53 Salv wrote:
I think it's rather early to decide whether or not Karune has any 'rts game sense' as you put it. Until this issue is actually discussed and not just occasionally alluded to on another forum, I find it even more absurd that you would conclude that Hot Bid playing the game for ten hours is the same or better then Karunes hundreds of hours.
Even further, IIRC, didn't the original 1 hatchery queen thread actually state that they are not calling it imbalanced because there hasn't been anywhere close to the amount of testing necessary to determine that? I will say that it's disappointing that Karune missed the big picture when replying to how you would counter this strategy. Fine, I won't go a far as to say that Karune's opinion is definitely worth less than Hot Bid's at this juncture, but look at his arguments. The sign of someone skilled in a domain of expertise is that he can put all the piece together. You'd expect that person to describe a coherent strategy, mention the key factors, and to identify some key decisions to make - to tie it all together. Karune does none of that. He's giving out fragmented pieces of knowledge like it's possible to defend against early ling and early hydra and there's units that can be used to scout in mid-game. There is nothing about strategy and nothing to tie the pieces together. I agree that there is enough evidence to make the theory that Karune simply doesn't know what he is talking, but it's also possible he just misunderstood or didn't realize what the actual concern was, or the flaws in his reply.
I pointed them out to him. He failed to answer. ;/
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On September 11 2009 21:57 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 13:47 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. Yeah, that might possibly work somehow... if you knew that he was powering drones instead of building a huge army. That's the point of the discussion. I find it harder and harder to believe you are not a troll. In all of your comments on the subject, you ignore pieces of the puzzle that disagree with what you are saying, and you cherry-pick pieces of others' arguments to disagree with them. Look at the post that you quoted up here and see if you can't find the part that you ignored/didn't respond to at all - the part of the post which states the crux of the issue. Its always nice being called a troll by someone with 47 posts. [1] Anyway if your wondering why I havnt responded to some of his comments its because I havnt played the game to know the exact specifics. [2] I am relying on information from people who have played the game. [3] I have theories. For instance you think hes mass drones and you tech reapers and you get there and see that he has actually massed hydras. [4] So you do what economic damage you can and when he comes at your base you have bunkers and siege tanks ready. And as soon as the hydras leave to attack you you hit his hatchery with your reapers. [5] Do I know exactly how it works? No this is all theorycrafting. But I do know that Karune has spent infinetly more time with SC2 than anyone else in this debate. And thats not a slight against Hot_Bid or Chill. I think they have valuble points that should be looked at. If I had to guess Id say the answer probably lies somewhere between Karune and Hot_Bid. [6]
[1] Yeah, there are definitely no high post-count trolls. Those don't exist on TL. I take it back, though. I think you are just misunderstanding the issue, and your way of expressing your disagreement is just immature and makes it look worse than it actually is.
[2] That definitely doesn't stop you from commenting on magical timings where you somehow tech both reapers and siege tanks before Zerg has a significant hydra force.
But no, this isn't a real answer. You didn't even read the part that was quoted so you don't even understand what I am saying here - you are just responding by taking bits and pieces of others' sentences, applying selective semantics and sophistry, and then typing it all out in a neat format.
Let's look again at that post you responded to first. This is important because you have missed the most central issue of the discussion.
+ Show Spoiler [This is what you saw and your response.] +On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything , or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the dronesor The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units.
+ Show Spoiler [This is what you didn't see.] +On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units.
+ Show Spoiler [Together they make an important thought.] +On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units.
My point is that you are not even reading the discussions that you make yourself a part of - you simply see a series of words that harms your worldview and selectively attack the posts that contain them.
[3] Like Hot_Bid and other TL staff? If you're gonna quote someone, at least quote David Kim who has been pretty much universally acknowledged (amongst Blizzard) as the most skillful player that Blizzard has put on SC2.
[4] This is the kind of situation that is important to this discussion. First off, you are aiming for reapers because you are guessing that he will try to power drones. Already, you've conceded a huge advantage to the Zerg because he can deny scouting (zergling pathing + creep). So you don't know whether to zig or zag, and you have an immediate chance to pick a suboptimal choice (this is much like Protoss early game vs. Zerg in SC).
[5] So you're going for tanks and reapers at the same time? This is almost like the Blizzard Special in that you are spreading yourself thin here. Also the timing doesn't work out. Reapers cost twice as much gas as hydras (50 gas per reaper). A compound costs 50 gas. A factory costs 100. A tech lab (for siege mode which costs 100) costs another 50, and a tank costs 150. You'll probably need Stim too in order to have your marines be useful, so that's another 100 gas.
Altogether, you need 550 gas to go this route (this doesn't include the cost of the squad of Reapers). With 550 gas, the Zerg can make a hydra den (50) and can build (500/25) 20 hydralisks. For every Reaper you build, he can also build 2 hydralisks. So the Zerg has a sizeable army of hydras with a ling backup, and you have a tank and some marines (which his lings can closely equal given his ability to scout).
That's assuming that the Zerg doesn't attack before siege mode is done. It also assumes that your Reapers will have an unscouted exit from your base + an unscouted entrance to his base. This is a pretty grim outlook altogether. The reason this build doesn't give you the upper hand is the Zerg's ability to scout you early on and your inability to scout him early on.
And after all that, you have to transition to something out of this Reaper/tank build.
[6] Theorycrafting is more like saying a build will beat another build given competent players and certain circumstances (like I just did above). The discussion at hand is about fundamental game mechanics that are possibly imbalanced.
There are two issues in this discussion that present the problem:
1. The queen more than doubles Zerg production capability.
2. Scouting a Zerg's base with a worker or any early-tier unit is extremely difficult because of creep speed.
Part 1 makes part 2 extremely painful. If you could scout the zerg perfectly, you could possibly match him and play on an even playing field. Because you can't scout him, you are made to generalize your build (your build lacks optimization that it could have had) or guess or some combination. Part 1 makes it so that he can push his scouting advantage even further by perfectly countering you with the least possible time and almost no constraint on what he has to build at a certain time.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On September 12 2009 07:53 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[1] Yeah, there are definitely no high post-count trolls. Those don't exist on TL. I take it back, though. I think you are just misunderstanding the issue, and your way of expressing your disagreement is just immature and makes it look worse than it actually is.
You've really been trolled into making such a giant post, but nice summary of arguments. The proposed T & P counters to Z only work if the player were given a map hack. Hence Hot Bid's frequent use of "coin toss," but it sounds like a series of unfair coin tosses to me.
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Calgary25966 Posts
Nice post DefMatrixUltra .
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On September 12 2009 07:53 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 21:57 Archerofaiur wrote:On September 11 2009 13:47 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. Yeah, that might possibly work somehow... if you knew that he was powering drones instead of building a huge army. That's the point of the discussion. I find it harder and harder to believe you are not a troll. In all of your comments on the subject, you ignore pieces of the puzzle that disagree with what you are saying, and you cherry-pick pieces of others' arguments to disagree with them. Look at the post that you quoted up here and see if you can't find the part that you ignored/didn't respond to at all - the part of the post which states the crux of the issue. Its always nice being called a troll by someone with 47 posts. [1] Anyway if your wondering why I havnt responded to some of his comments its because I havnt played the game to know the exact specifics. [2] I am relying on information from people who have played the game. [3] I have theories. For instance you think hes mass drones and you tech reapers and you get there and see that he has actually massed hydras. [4] So you do what economic damage you can and when he comes at your base you have bunkers and siege tanks ready. And as soon as the hydras leave to attack you you hit his hatchery with your reapers. [5] Do I know exactly how it works? No this is all theorycrafting. But I do know that Karune has spent infinetly more time with SC2 than anyone else in this debate. And thats not a slight against Hot_Bid or Chill. I think they have valuble points that should be looked at. If I had to guess Id say the answer probably lies somewhere between Karune and Hot_Bid. [6] [1] Yeah, there are definitely no high post-count trolls. Those don't exist on TL. I take it back, though. I think you are just misunderstanding the issue, and your way of expressing your disagreement is just immature and makes it look worse than it actually is. [2] That definitely doesn't stop you from commenting on magical timings where you somehow tech both reapers and siege tanks before Zerg has a significant hydra force. But no, this isn't a real answer. You didn't even read the part that was quoted so you don't even understand what I am saying here - you are just responding by taking bits and pieces of others' sentences, applying selective semantics and sophistry, and then typing it all out in a neat format. Let's look again at that post you responded to first. This is important because you have missed the most central issue of the discussion. + Show Spoiler [This is what you saw and your response.] +On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything , or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the dronesor The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. On September 11 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 11:53 ArvickHero wrote:
Karune says that scouting will be easy by midgame... what? How the hell is that supposed to address the problem? By mid-game, if the Zerg player decided to power drones like hell, you'll be too far behind to do anything, or if the Zerg went all-in Hydra and you decided to be a little greedy, you'd get run over. This does nothing about the extreme flexibility of the 1hatch play and how you are kept in the dark for a good portion of time.
IMO, make speedling upgrade take longer to complete or increase the cost, that'll make scouting a lot easier for T/P early game, which is when they need it THE MOST. And the reapers come in and destroy the small army and then destroy the drones or The phoenix destroy the overlords and now you cant make drones or units. My point is that you are not even reading the discussions that you make yourself a part of - you simply see a series of words that harms your worldview and selectively attack the posts that contain them. [3] Like Hot_Bid and other TL staff? If you're gonna quote someone, at least quote David Kim who has been pretty much universally acknowledged (amongst Blizzard) as the most skillful player that Blizzard has put on SC2. [4] This is the kind of situation that is important to this discussion. First off, you are aiming for reapers because you are guessing that he will try to power drones. Already, you've conceded a huge advantage to the Zerg because he can deny scouting (zergling pathing + creep). So you don't know whether to zig or zag, and you have an immediate chance to pick a suboptimal choice (this is much like Protoss early game vs. Zerg in SC). [5] So you're going for tanks and reapers at the same time? This is almost like the Blizzard Special in that you are spreading yourself thin here. Also the timing doesn't work out. Reapers cost twice as much gas as hydras (50 gas per reaper). A compound costs 50 gas. A factory costs 100. A tech lab (for siege mode which costs 100) costs another 50, and a tank costs 150. You'll probably need Stim too in order to have your marines be useful, so that's another 100 gas. Altogether, you need 550 gas to go this route (this doesn't include the cost of the squad of Reapers). With 550 gas, the Zerg can make a hydra den (50) and can build (500/25) 20 hydralisks. For every Reaper you build, he can also build 2 hydralisks. So the Zerg has a sizeable army of hydras with a ling backup, and you have a tank and some marines (which his lings can closely equal given his ability to scout). That's assuming that the Zerg doesn't attack before siege mode is done. It also assumes that your Reapers will have an unscouted exit from your base + an unscouted entrance to his base. This is a pretty grim outlook altogether. The reason this build doesn't give you the upper hand is the Zerg's ability to scout you early on and your inability to scout him early on. And after all that, you have to transition to something out of this Reaper/tank build. [6] Theorycrafting is more like saying a build will beat another build given competent players and certain circumstances (like I just did above). The discussion at hand is about fundamental game mechanics that are possibly imbalanced. There are two issues in this discussion that present the problem: 1. The queen more than doubles Zerg production capability. 2. Scouting a Zerg's base with a worker or any early-tier unit is extremely difficult because of creep speed. Part 1 makes part 2 extremely painful. If you could scout the zerg perfectly, you could possibly match him and play on an even playing field. Because you can't scout him, you are made to generalize your build (your build lacks optimization that it could have had) or guess or some combination. Part 1 makes it so that he can push his scouting advantage even further by perfectly countering you with the least possible time and almost no constraint on what he has to build at a certain time.
Oh boy. Ok ill keep this as simple as possible since it seems like your looking for a fight. A fight I really have no dogs in.
I havnt played SC2. My reaper and phoenix comment, thats what Karune said. I havnt used reapers to defeat 1 hatch queen, he does. Now I cant tell you how it works but I trust on some level it does work or Karune would not have said it. I actually shouldnt have said my suggestion about teching to siege tanks since that was not information I had. I was trying to offer a possible situation since you had questions about how this would work.
Now lets talk about the real issue thats getting people riled up. We have two seemingly contradicting opinions from TL representatives and from the SC2 community manager. On one hand you have people who have experience playing Starcraft from a professional perspective. On the other hand you have a guy who works for Blizzard and has played more SC2 than anyone else in this debate. Each party has a certain sense of authority from their background and current position. And it seems like they disagree.
So who do we trust? Well one must be right and the other must be completly wrong, right? So you cast your chips on one side or the other and start calling the other side retarded. They arnt. Hot-Bid is not stupid. Karune knows what the zerg economy is like. People need to calm down.
For me personally, even if I played at Blizzcon and won with a build over and over I still would not automatically assume I know more than Blizzard. But I would do exactly what Chill and Hot-Bid have done and bring it to the notice of the community.
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On September 11 2009 23:01 JWD wrote:
I'm eagerly anticipating Chill's article.
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Osaka27128 Posts
On September 12 2009 12:14 BleuNuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 23:01 JWD wrote:
I'm eagerly anticipating Chill's article.
Try the front page.
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On September 12 2009 11:19 Archerofaiur wrote:
Now lets talk about the real issue thats getting people riled up. We have two seemingly contradicting opinions from TL representatives and from the SC2 community manager. On one hand you have people who have experience playing Starcraft from a professional perspective. On the other hand you have a guy who works for Blizzard and has played more SC2 than anyone else in this debate. Each party has a certain sense of authority from their background and current position. And it seems like they disagree.
So who do we trust? [1]
Well one must be right and the other must be completly wrong, right? So you cast your chips on one side or the other and start calling the other side retarded. They arnt. Hot-Bid is not stupid. Karune knows what the zerg economy is like. People need to calm down. [2]
[1] Matters are not settled on credentials, they are settled on merits. Even if Hot_Bid was the noobiest noob to ever play SC2 from now until the end of the universe, his arguments could still be 100% spot-on - people would just tend to listen less to them. It's not about who anyone trusts.
[2] The larva mechanic is either too powerful or it isn't. This has nothing to do with whose side anyone is on or which people are on that side. This is a clear-cut binary decision that must be made by someone at Blizzard. The argument you're trying to use to divide people into 2 groups is actually 2 different arguments. Karune is saying "yeah, I can beat this rush build I've seen Zerg do with 1 hatch queen" and Hot_Bid is saying "1 hatch queen allows too diverse and too powerful responses to other strategies in general." Not even the same topic of discussion.
This isn't even an issue of implementation or something like that. People that understand the nature of RTSs and even the nature of strategy games in general will be able to understand that this mechanic certainly could be overpowered, depending on the exact numbers. Very good arguments have been put forth for this case, and a very poor response (that doesn't directly address the actual issues [the scouting + production increase]) that simply outlines how to defeat a particular build using the mechanic.
The mechanic itself is more general than the build that Karune was talking about. Yes, maybe his build does counter that build very well. That's all well and good. But there are three options the Zerg has here, none of which the Terran can scout. The Zerg can go full eco, spamming drones. He can also go full production, spamming units. He can also do mix of the two.
The Zerg's ability to adapt like this is a direct consequence of the larva mechanic - it is much more general than some particular rush build that Karune imagined when he was speaking on the topic.
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I Think maybe if creep speed was disabled until lair tech or something, then scouting would be easier. That plus possibly make the queen melee attack. That would force ling speed earlier and you would be able to scout a little bit longer until ling speed.
yes?
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On September 12 2009 14:21 Another_Pro wrote:
I Think maybe if creep speed was disabled until lair tech or something, then scouting would be easier. That plus possibly make the queen melee attack. That would force ling speed earlier and you would be able to scout a little bit longer until ling speed.
yes?
Yayyyy brood war again?
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United States47024 Posts
@DefMatrixUltra: You are now officially my favorite poster on TL with less than 100 posts (not like that means anything to anyone).
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On September 12 2009 14:37 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 14:21 Another_Pro wrote:
I Think maybe if creep speed was disabled until lair tech or something, then scouting would be easier. That plus possibly make the queen melee attack. That would force ling speed earlier and you would be able to scout a little bit longer until ling speed.
yes? Yayyyy brood war again?
exactly
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On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 11:19 Archerofaiur wrote:
Now lets talk about the real issue thats getting people riled up. We have two seemingly contradicting opinions from TL representatives and from the SC2 community manager. On one hand you have people who have experience playing Starcraft from a professional perspective. On the other hand you have a guy who works for Blizzard and has played more SC2 than anyone else in this debate. Each party has a certain sense of authority from their background and current position. And it seems like they disagree.
So who do we trust? [1]
Well one must be right and the other must be completly wrong, right? So you cast your chips on one side or the other and start calling the other side retarded. They arnt. Hot-Bid is not stupid. Karune knows what the zerg economy is like. People need to calm down. [2] [1] Matters are not settled on credentials, they are settled on merits. Even if Hot_Bid was the noobiest noob to ever play SC2 from now until the end of the universe, his arguments could still be 100% spot-on - people would just tend to listen less to them. It's not about who anyone trusts.
What is your arguement here? That Karunes comments dont have merit?
On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[2] The larva mechanic is either too powerful or it isn't. This has nothing to do with whose side anyone is on or which people are on that side. This is a clear-cut binary decision that must be made by someone at Blizzard. The argument you're trying to use to divide people into 2 groups is actually 2 different arguments. Karune is saying "yeah, I can beat this rush build I've seen Zerg do with 1 hatch queen" and Hot_Bid is saying "1 hatch queen allows too diverse and too powerful responses to other strategies in general." Not even the same topic of discussion.
Just for a second consider this posibility.
1) 1 hatch queen allows for incredibly diverse and powerful responces (It does deny scouting, it does give econ or production boosts)
and
2) You can still beat it using the other races incredibly diverese and powerful responces
Thats why I said that they are apparently contradictory. They appear to be but they may not be. I dont know since I cant speak for Karune.
On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
The mechanic itself is more general than the build that Karune was talking about. Yes, maybe his build does counter that build very well. That's all well and good. But there are three options the Zerg has here, none of which the Terran can scout. The Zerg can go full eco, spamming drones. He can also go full production, spamming units. He can also do mix of the two.
The Zerg's ability to adapt like this is a direct consequence of the larva mechanic - it is much more general than some particular rush build that Karune imagined when he was speaking on the topic.
Zatic recently confirmed that if you press the zerg you force them to make units. You effectively force their hand by keeping the pressure on. Also about the scouting issue Karune says that its not much different from zerg not being able to see inside a terran base.
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On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[1] Matters are not settled on credentials, they are settled on merits. Even if Hot_Bid was the noobiest noob to ever play SC2 from now until the end of the universe, his arguments could still be 100% spot-on - people would just tend to listen less to them. It's not about who anyone trusts.
Merits cannot be fully concluded if you have incomplete information. The level of information that each party has is at such a huge gap. Therefore I don't think anyone here is in a position to determine whether HotBid is 100% spot on or not.
If you want the clear cut no bullshit version: get off your high horses. It's awesome to debate this and it should be debated, but as ArcherofAiur says please realize that karune and the other folks at blizzard have so much more know-how on SC2 than you do.
I am not saying I agree with either party, I'm saying that you shouldn't be so sure of yourself when you have so much less knowledge and experience on the topic than they do.
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for the scouting thing:
you can always stop the mule for 50 sec and make one scan, and you can see what the zerg will do, then swicth to mule again...
anyway after 6 min the first exp is saturate, the queen appear after 3 min ,and you get a real advantage 1 min later, so the true advantage, lasts just for two min, that is equal to =500-700 more mineral (estimate), this mean that if you not expand, and deciede to go for one base u can't win for sure(500-700more mineral = 6-9 idra)
this also mean that you get 100% your second exp(and for me it is no longer necessary to scout your base, because i know that u take the exp for sure), now i can decide to drop you fast with 2 medivac with 16 rines(produced from 2 rax+2 reactor), i can do this in 6 mins(estimate), and try some harrassment or trying something else, dunno know...
p.s. don't forgot that, i can always make a bunker rush+salvage combo...
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On September 12 2009 23:11 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On September 12 2009 11:19 Archerofaiur wrote:
Now lets talk about the real issue thats getting people riled up. We have two seemingly contradicting opinions from TL representatives and from the SC2 community manager. On one hand you have people who have experience playing Starcraft from a professional perspective. On the other hand you have a guy who works for Blizzard and has played more SC2 than anyone else in this debate. Each party has a certain sense of authority from their background and current position. And it seems like they disagree.
So who do we trust? [1]
Well one must be right and the other must be completly wrong, right? So you cast your chips on one side or the other and start calling the other side retarded. They arnt. Hot-Bid is not stupid. Karune knows what the zerg economy is like. People need to calm down. [2] [1] Matters are not settled on credentials, they are settled on merits. Even if Hot_Bid was the noobiest noob to ever play SC2 from now until the end of the universe, his arguments could still be 100% spot-on - people would just tend to listen less to them. It's not about who anyone trusts. What is your arguement here? That Karunes comments dont have merit? [1] Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[2] The larva mechanic is either too powerful or it isn't. This has nothing to do with whose side anyone is on or which people are on that side. This is a clear-cut binary decision that must be made by someone at Blizzard. The argument you're trying to use to divide people into 2 groups is actually 2 different arguments. Karune is saying "yeah, I can beat this rush build I've seen Zerg do with 1 hatch queen" and Hot_Bid is saying "1 hatch queen allows too diverse and too powerful responses to other strategies in general." Not even the same topic of discussion. Just for a second consider this posibility. 1) 1 hatch queen allows for incredibly diverse and powerful responces (It does deny scouting, it does give econ or production boosts) and 2) You can still beat it using the other races incredibly diverese and powerful responces Thats why I said that they are apparently contradictory. They appear to be but they may not be. I dont know since I cant speak for Karune. Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
The mechanic itself is more general than the build that Karune was talking about. Yes, maybe his build does counter that build very well. That's all well and good. But there are three options the Zerg has here, none of which the Terran can scout. The Zerg can go full eco, spamming drones. He can also go full production, spamming units. He can also do mix of the two.
The Zerg's ability to adapt like this is a direct consequence of the larva mechanic - it is much more general than some particular rush build that Karune imagined when he was speaking on the topic. Zatic recently confirmed that if you press the zerg you force them to make units. You effectively force their hand by keeping the pressure on. [2] Also about the scouting issue Karune says that its not much different from zerg not being able to see inside a terran base. [3]
[1] I made those statements because you were trying to create an argument from authority. Saying 'well this guy says this, and I trust him' is not a valid argument, nor does it have any effect on things that he says. Karune's credentials mean nothing - all that matters is the issue of whether something is actually overpowered or not. That's all I was saying.
Karune's comments probably do have merit, and he is probably right that the build he described counters the other build he described. But he didn't answer to what you do in general against a 1 hatch queen build.
[2] You can certainly do this, but the Zerg can also respond perfectly every time to your pressure. If he builds the exact right amount of defense to stop your attack from damaging him, he will come out ahead. If responding perfectly to pressure doesn't put him ahead, then the game balance is broken somewhere.
[3] You can keep an overlord out of your base just like you can in SC. All you need is a single marine, perhaps two to keep out two overlords at two places. But the Zerg will scout the instant you move out and will know the number and makeup of your forces. This allows him to respond perfectly so that his defense will be just enough to hold and he will come out economically more ahead than he was before you attacked him. The Terran is at a disadvantage in scouting here.
On September 12 2009 23:31 FortuneSyn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[1] Matters are not settled on credentials, they are settled on merits. Even if Hot_Bid was the noobiest noob to ever play SC2 from now until the end of the universe, his arguments could still be 100% spot-on - people would just tend to listen less to them. It's not about who anyone trusts.
Merits cannot be fully concluded if you have incomplete information. The level of information that each party has is at such a huge gap. Therefore I don't think anyone here is in a position to determine whether HotBid is 100% spot on or not. [1] If you want the clear cut no bullshit version: get off your high horses. It's awesome to debate this and it should be debated, but as ArcherofAiur says please realize that karune and the other folks at blizzard have so much more know-how on SC2 than you do. I am not saying I agree with either party, I'm saying that you shouldn't be so sure of yourself when you have so much less knowledge and experience on the topic than they do. [2]
[1] I agree completely and made no such claim. My comments were just to say that an argument from authority is not as good as an argument from merits. It was in response to something Archerofaiur said, not some new point I was trying to bring up.
[2] I personally think the larva mechanic is overpowered in its current form. There has been a good case made for this proposition. No one at Blizzard has actually said anything to make me think otherwise either. The response from Karune talks about a single build vs. another single build (and how does he know exactly what the Zerg is doing?), but the larva mechanic is a general thing that goes beyond single builds. I'd like to hear Karune's thoughts on how you can equal a Zerg's scouting so that you're not at a scouting disadvantage. I'd like to see him respond to some of the well-thought-out writeups that have been made here. Until the general mechanic is addressed (and not just a single build), Blizzard has given me no reason not to agree with Hot_Bid and Chill.
My main issue with Archerofaiur is not his position, it's his method of argument.
It's one thing to refer to 100 progames on TLPD where something is able to consistently beat a strategy or overcome a mechanic. It's another thing for someone to take comments from Karune about a specific strategy versus a specific build and generalize it into saying that something involved in that specific build is not overpowered.
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On September 13 2009 00:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 23:11 Archerofaiur wrote:On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On September 12 2009 11:19 Archerofaiur wrote:
Now lets talk about the real issue thats getting people riled up. We have two seemingly contradicting opinions from TL representatives and from the SC2 community manager. On one hand you have people who have experience playing Starcraft from a professional perspective. On the other hand you have a guy who works for Blizzard and has played more SC2 than anyone else in this debate. Each party has a certain sense of authority from their background and current position. And it seems like they disagree.
So who do we trust? [1]
Well one must be right and the other must be completly wrong, right? So you cast your chips on one side or the other and start calling the other side retarded. They arnt. Hot-Bid is not stupid. Karune knows what the zerg economy is like. People need to calm down. [2] [1] Matters are not settled on credentials, they are settled on merits. Even if Hot_Bid was the noobiest noob to ever play SC2 from now until the end of the universe, his arguments could still be 100% spot-on - people would just tend to listen less to them. It's not about who anyone trusts. What is your arguement here? That Karunes comments dont have merit? [1] On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[2] The larva mechanic is either too powerful or it isn't. This has nothing to do with whose side anyone is on or which people are on that side. This is a clear-cut binary decision that must be made by someone at Blizzard. The argument you're trying to use to divide people into 2 groups is actually 2 different arguments. Karune is saying "yeah, I can beat this rush build I've seen Zerg do with 1 hatch queen" and Hot_Bid is saying "1 hatch queen allows too diverse and too powerful responses to other strategies in general." Not even the same topic of discussion. Just for a second consider this posibility. 1) 1 hatch queen allows for incredibly diverse and powerful responces (It does deny scouting, it does give econ or production boosts) and 2) You can still beat it using the other races incredibly diverese and powerful responces Thats why I said that they are apparently contradictory. They appear to be but they may not be. I dont know since I cant speak for Karune. On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
The mechanic itself is more general than the build that Karune was talking about. Yes, maybe his build does counter that build very well. That's all well and good. But there are three options the Zerg has here, none of which the Terran can scout. The Zerg can go full eco, spamming drones. He can also go full production, spamming units. He can also do mix of the two.
The Zerg's ability to adapt like this is a direct consequence of the larva mechanic - it is much more general than some particular rush build that Karune imagined when he was speaking on the topic. Zatic recently confirmed that if you press the zerg you force them to make units. You effectively force their hand by keeping the pressure on. [2] Also about the scouting issue Karune says that its not much different from zerg not being able to see inside a terran base. [3] [1] I made those statements because you were trying to create an argument from authority. Saying 'well this guy says this, and I trust him' is not a valid argument, nor does it have any effect on things that he says. Karune's credentials mean nothing - all that matters is the issue of whether something is actually overpowered or not. That's all I was saying..
That is absolutly not what I said. My statement was the exact opposite. I think people are rushing to one side or the other and then blocking out everything the other side is saying. Then they are extrapulating to form these incredible conclusions about how the game most definatly works. I would urge everyone to take a second to calm down and consider the posibility that they are rushing to conclusions without adequate information.
On September 13 2009 00:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
Karune's comments probably do have merit, and he is probably right that the build he described counters the other build he described. But he didn't answer to what you do in general against a 1 hatch queen build.
The first time he explained what one possible counter to 1 hatch was. People then asked him about scouting and he said that yes you are in the dark but it is not that much more detrimental than not knowing what terran is doing. Now you can continue to bring up other points like the flexibility of unit productio. However you have to accept that just because he didnt adress a point it doesnt mean that Blizzard has not thought about it. He could give an answer about the flexibilty and you could have 100 more questions.
On September 13 2009 00:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[2] You can certainly do this, but the Zerg can also respond perfectly every time to your pressure. If he builds the exact right amount of defense to stop your attack from damaging him, he will come out ahead. If responding perfectly to pressure doesn't put him ahead, then the game balance is broken somewhere.
I do not have adequate information to confirm or deny this statement. You might be right. You might be wrong.
On September 13 2009 00:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[3] You can keep an overlord out of your base just like you can in SC. All you need is a single marine, perhaps two to keep out two overlords at two places. But the Zerg will scout the instant you move out and will know the number and makeup of your forces. This allows him to respond perfectly so that his defense will be just enough to hold and he will come out economically more ahead than he was before you attacked him. The Terran is at a disadvantage in scouting here..
I do not have adequate information to confirm or deny this statement. You might be right. You might be wrong.
On September 13 2009 00:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 23:31 FortuneSyn wrote:On September 12 2009 13:16 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[1] Matters are not settled on credentials, they are settled on merits. Even if Hot_Bid was the noobiest noob to ever play SC2 from now until the end of the universe, his arguments could still be 100% spot-on - people would just tend to listen less to them. It's not about who anyone trusts.
Merits cannot be fully concluded if you have incomplete information. The level of information that each party has is at such a huge gap. Therefore I don't think anyone here is in a position to determine whether HotBid is 100% spot on or not. [1] If you want the clear cut no bullshit version: get off your high horses. It's awesome to debate this and it should be debated, but as ArcherofAiur says please realize that karune and the other folks at blizzard have so much more know-how on SC2 than you do. I am not saying I agree with either party, I'm saying that you shouldn't be so sure of yourself when you have so much less knowledge and experience on the topic than they do. [2] [1] I agree completely and made no such claim. My comments were just to say that an argument from authority is not as good as an argument from merits. It was in response to something Archerofaiur said, not some new point I was trying to bring up.
I am glad to see you agree with that. I dont think we dissagree as much as you think we do.
On September 13 2009 00:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[2] I personally think the larva mechanic is overpowered in its current form. There has been a good case made for this proposition. No one at Blizzard has actually said anything to make me think otherwise either. The response from Karune talks about a single build vs. another single build (and how does he know exactly what the Zerg is doing?), but the larva mechanic is a general thing that goes beyond single builds. I'd like to hear Karune's thoughts on how you can equal a Zerg's scouting so that you're not at a scouting disadvantage. I'd like to see him respond to some of the well-thought-out writeups that have been made here. Until the general mechanic is addressed (and not just a single build), Blizzard has given me no reason not to agree with Hot_Bid and Chill..
Well fair enough. You havnt been convinced that larva is not overpowered. I havnt been convinced that larva is overpowerd. I also dont think that scouting needs to be exactly equal at every point in the game.Yes scouting is good and I do like the intellegence style gameflow. However I am ok with certain situations in which you are denied all intel for a period of time.
On September 13 2009 00:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
My main issue with Archerofaiur is not his position, it's his method of argument.
I am sorry you feel that way. I feel that I have been very reasonable with you. Much of what you have replied has been mischaracterizations of my position....
On September 13 2009 00:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
It's one thing to refer to 100 progames on TLPD where something is able to consistently beat a strategy or overcome a mechanic. It's another thing for someone to take comments from Karune about a specific strategy versus a specific build and generalize it into saying that something involved in that specific build is not overpowered.
...Like that.
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Karune clearly described that the timing window between ling speed and midgame scouting tools for toss was small. He did say it was potentially exploitable, but still small enough to not be overpowering in his opinion.
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yeah he is right
to have a obs= gateway(150m/50sec)-->cybernetics core(200m/50sec)--->robotics facility(200m/100gas/65sec)
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On September 13 2009 01:48 Amph wrote:
yeah he is right
to have a obs= gateway(150m/50sec)-->cybernetics core(200m/50sec)--->robotics facility(200m/100gas/65sec)
Plus the time to make an obs.
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yeah of course, it's 33 sec plus 25m/75gas
so it's a total of 198secs, but you can't go straight to it , therefore i think that you can have it at 4 min...
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It's not just a matter of getting observers out though, but also having an army ready to deal with what you see (punish greed or defend an attack).
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United States12607 Posts
DefMatrixUltra: thank you for fighting the good fight in this thread.
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I submit that if the macro mechanics are removed, SC2 may have more strategic variety than it does currently as far as strats go (which is the opposite of what the reason for them was). But, like every other comment, this is just a guess...
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Very simple question:
What if the cost for queen, mule and obelisk were upped by 200minerals?
I think they justify the price of an expansion since they are worth like 1/2 expansion + you do not need to defend another base.
Also those alternative mechanics could be buffed into real powerful alternatives, since they are so much harder to get
Oh, and why is Obelsik so weak? .
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yeah, the obelisk has only 100 hp... it can be destroyed pretty easily with a ling rush...
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As far as credentials, Karune is supposed to be the #2 SC2 player on the sc2 ladders, only losing to David Kim. (It came up in a different thread). Take that as you will.
(I do personally find the ability overpowered)
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On September 13 2009 03:03 Teejing wrote:
Very simple question:
What if the cost for queen, mule and obelisk were upped by 200minerals?
I think they justify the price of an expansion since they are worth like 1/2 expansion The obelisk is a 20% increase. I don't know how that's worth an expansion >.<
It also lacks the benefit that an expansion actually has EXTRA potential minerals, and not just faster mining. IE less dangers of mining out quickly and having no income.
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Hotbid you have to rape him 10-0 and see if he balance it hahaha
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I'm not going to comment on the build specified in this thread this time (isn't 3 threads enough?) but I do want to say that I disagree with attacking Archer's "way of arguing" because he's probably the most coherent person I've discussed this issue with on this forum....
Also @ amph, the cybernetics core costs 150 minerals in the latest build. :D
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[2] You can certainly do this, but the Zerg can also respond perfectly every time to your pressure. If he builds the exact right amount of defense to stop your attack from damaging him, he will come out ahead. If responding perfectly to pressure doesn't put him ahead, then the game balance is broken somewhere.
I disagree. If it is trivially easy to respond perfectly to pressure than it should not give an advantage. Advantage should only be given when someone does something difficult.
It is pretty easy for a Zerg player to respond to a corsair scout out of a protoss FE without losing more than one overlord, (which costs much less than stargate+sair) but that "perfect response" do not give the Zerg player an advantage, merely maintain a draw. If Zerg can defend an air scout without gaining an advantage, how would it be different it it where zealots instead?
But the Zerg will scout the instant you move out and will know the number and makeup of your forces. This allows him to respond perfectly so that his defense will be just enough to hold and he will come out economically more ahead than he was before you attacked him. The Terran is at a disadvantage in scouting here.
You are assuming that the Zerg's response costs the Zerg economy the same amount as the Terran one. If it takes 600minerals of zerg units to kill 300minerals of terran ones (actually very common in current TvZ), "perfect response" in the form of just building just enough do not imply a economic advantage.
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Basically, what I'm saying is that better scouting do not imply anything. Better scouting helps and gains an advantage if economy and military unit power is equal, however IT IS NOT EQUAL amongst races. Just imagine playing one of those crazy altered starcraft UMS where one side gets map hacks and other gets 1/2 cost for units....I know what I'm picking.
The question is how to balance the difference between different variables so that fun gameplay emerges rather than focus on a single one.
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I've been thinking about builds for TvZ against 1hatch queen, and I am quite stuck. I wonder if those with game experience have any idea on how to go at it.
The problem isn't that the Zerg can switch builds so much, but two other things:
1. Zerg can power economy far faster than it before and far faster than the terran
2. Terran do not have a good early attack option
The simple fact is that marines and other ranged units are weak in small numbers and works well only with a deathball which now takes longer to build up due to lack of stim/medics. So here are what I see as terran options:
1. Early pressure, loses Marines to Zerglings force that costs less and fall behind.
2. FE: Even if not broken frontally, up to 7 drones per round of production grows far faster than 2 SCV per round and with improved pathing, all those income allows it power army or more bases before 2base saturates. Losing economically is certain and would not work at all without combining with #3
3. Tech: Zerg would be growing economically very fast and unless terran tech is zomg damn uber, it won't help. However if Terran mid game tech is damned uber it'd effect TvP as well.
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That is not saying that the thing couldn't be balanced, but to keep early game power in check with the kind of starting units and mechanics we see, the following would probably happen.
Assuming that the Zerg is:
Zerg: Fast army power, Exponential econ
Then Terran have to be as follows:
Terran: Exponential army power, linear econ
Since Terran can't match early game combat power to stop zerg exponential econ growth, its deathball most grow in combat power exponentially to match.
Then Protoss has to work like this:
Protoss: Exponential army power, linear econ
If the protoss has only fast army power (aka 2gate rush) but does not scale up anywhere as well as terran, than it would HAVE TO ALL IN on a terran before a Terran uber deathball happens. Protoss need exponential growth in something to match terrans without resorting to all in every game.
Unless TvZ and TvP units are completely different, but I don't see that quite happening yet.....
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On September 13 2009 16:27 SWPIGWANG wrote:
3. Tech: Zerg would be growing economically very fast and unless terran tech is zomg damn uber, it won't help. However if Terran mid game tech is damned uber it'd effect TvP as well.
You can basically get 2 factories worth of production capability for helions by the time zerg researched ling speed. Then it takes 60 game seconds to build 4 helions which instantly rapes any amount of zerglings and are also cost effective against hydras.
Now, if the zerg didn't scout this and assumed that he could respond to any threat using 7 larvae he is now dead or at least lost a huge chunk of his worker losing all of his economic advantage, just like the zerg needs a few lings to check up on the terran the terran just needs a few marines to keep overlords away.
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On September 13 2009 15:42 SWPIGWANG wrote:Show nested quote +
[2] You can certainly do this, but the Zerg can also respond perfectly every time to your pressure. If he builds the exact right amount of defense to stop your attack from damaging him, he will come out ahead. If responding perfectly to pressure doesn't put him ahead, then the game balance is broken somewhere.
I disagree. If it is trivially easy to respond perfectly to pressure than it should not give an advantage. Advantage should only be given when someone does something difficult. [1] It is pretty easy for a Zerg player to respond to a corsair scout out of a protoss FE without losing more than one overlord, (which costs much less than stargate+sair) but that "perfect response" do not give the Zerg player an advantage, merely maintain a draw. [2] Show nested quote +But the Zerg will scout the instant you move out and will know the number and makeup of your forces. This allows him to respond perfectly so that his defense will be just enough to hold and he will come out economically more ahead than he was before you attacked him. The Terran is at a disadvantage in scouting here. You are assuming that the Zerg's response costs the Zerg economy the same amount as the Terran one. If it takes 600minerals of zerg units to kill 300minerals of terran ones (actually very common in current TvZ), "perfect response" in the form of just building just enough do not imply a economic advantage. [3] ------------------------ Basically, what I'm saying is that better scouting do not imply anything. Better scouting helps and gains an advantage if economy and military unit power is equal, however IT IS NOT EQUAL amongst races. Just imagine playing one of those crazy altered starcraft UMS where one side gets map hacks and other gets 1/2 cost for units....I know what I'm picking. [4] The question is how to balance the difference between different variables so that fun gameplay emerges rather than focus on a single one.
[1] It's never trivially easy to respond to something perfectly. Responding to something perfectly implies being prepared for it in the first place (metagame knowledge), knowing exactly the minimum you need to respond (experience/game sense), and then executing the response. These three things encompass pretty much every aspect of army in Starcraft, and responding to something is never trivial unless the players' skill levels are nowhere near each other.
That said, a good player who takes every advantage he can and has good knowledge of the game can set up situations for himself in which it is much easier to perfectly respond to something. Even if it's easy, they should come out ahead. It takes planning and lots of game knowledge. This should be rewarded.
If a general situation exists where a player responds perfectly to something but does not come out ahead, then I would say the game is not balanced - that's one of my core definitions. If a player is so skilled that he can pull off something perfectly, he ought to come out ahead, even if it's 'easy' to execute.
My argument about the Zerg in SC2 is that their capability for response is too strong in comparison to the other races - this is a bad thing in my opinion; that's why I'm arguing against it. It might be all right if the Zerg has a scouting advantage over the other races. This exists somewhat in both matchups already because of map layout and overlord placement. It also might be all right if the Zerg has a big production advantage over his opponents. But both of them together compound each other. Superior scouting ability means the Zerg can respond perfectly to attacks. Superior production capability means the Zerg can respond can respond extremely well to defensive play and also provides him with an easier means to defend the attacks which he scouted with his superior scouting.
Like I was saying earlier, a perfect response should be rewarded in every situation. But the Zerg's capability for a perfect response is too high. If he has the ability to perfectly respond to attacks and the ability to power drones against defensive play, then he ought to pay some price for it. The other races ought to be able to scout him and punish him likewise for pushing out or powering drones.
Imagine ZvP in Starcraft if the Zerg could go overpool speed or 9 pool speed and also build 2 hatcheries simultaneously and stay at the same level of economy and defense as if they just went 9 pool speed. That abuses the Protoss' inability to scout far too much. I honestly believe this is the situation that will come up in SC2 as the mechanics exist right now.
[2] This is a specific situation involving tech timings. It's not really responding to something. It's more like playing out a script that has come from the evolution of the metagame. A better situation would be something considered non-standard in today's play in SC. If a Protoss went FE and hid a second scouting probe and somehow got to a Zerg base to see hydralisks rallying, he could build extra cannons at his natural expansion - this is an example of perfect response. It's responding to something that you didn't 90% expect.
In this case, the Protoss had it pretty easy. He had the knowledge and experience to hide a probe from zerglings. He had the experience to know that rallying hydralisks likely means an attack on the natural. He knows that the counter to this is building extra cannons at his natural. This would be considered an easy perfect response, but it should definitely put the Protoss ahead. It's not so much about making it easier for the Protoss but giving the Protoss the ability to punish the Zerg player for his choice of build and tech.
[3] This is true again, but this is another argument where the outcome/answer will be determined by tech timings and so on. To give an example to state more clearly what I mean: Imagine a ZvT in which the Zerg stays too long on Lair tech and the Terran has gone MnM with tanks/vessels. The Terran will obviously push into the Zerg's natural (or possibly an exposed base) with his tank force just obliterating pretty much anything. Now it's conceivable that the Zerg could 'perfectly' defend against this army by building 859484 hatcheries and spamming masses of Lair units to force the Terran's army away from his base.
However, the Zerg will most definitely not end up ahead even though he may have made the minimum forces to respond. The reason he won't end up ahead is because of his imperfect early on. He didn't play out the metagame script properly and is now paying for it. So any response that he makes, even if it's exact and precise, cannot really be perfect.
So a perfect response by my meaning is something that lies outside of things like metagame and tech levels.
[4] Fortunately the game is not balanced around such mechanics nor should it be.
On September 13 2009 16:27 SWPIGWANG wrote:
I've been thinking about builds for TvZ against 1hatch queen, and I am quite stuck. I wonder if those with game experience have any idea on how to go at it.
The problem isn't that the Zerg can switch builds so much, but two other things:
1. Zerg can power economy far faster than it before and far faster than the terran
2. Terran do not have a good early attack option
The simple fact is that marines and other ranged units are weak in small numbers and works well only with a deathball which now takes longer to build up due to lack of stim/medics. So here are what I see as terran options:
1. Early pressure, loses Marines to Zerglings force that costs less and fall behind.
2. FE: Even if not broken frontally, up to 7 drones per round of production grows far faster than 2 SCV per round and with improved pathing, all those income allows it power army or more bases before 2base saturates. Losing economically is certain and would not work at all without combining with #3
3. Tech: Zerg would be growing economically very fast and unless terran tech is zomg damn uber, it won't help. However if Terran mid game tech is damned uber it'd effect TvP as well.
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That is not saying that the thing couldn't be balanced, but to keep early game power in check with the kind of starting units and mechanics we see, the following would probably happen.
Assuming that the Zerg is:
Zerg: Fast army power, Exponential econ
Then Terran have to be as follows:
Terran: Exponential army power, linear econ
Since Terran can't match early game combat power to stop zerg exponential econ growth, its deathball most grow in combat power exponentially to match.
Then Protoss has to work like this:
Protoss: Exponential army power, linear econ
If the protoss has only fast army power (aka 2gate rush) but does not scale up anywhere as well as terran, than it would HAVE TO ALL IN on a terran before a Terran uber deathball happens. Protoss need exponential growth in something to match terrans without resorting to all in every game.
Unless TvZ and TvP units are completely different, but I don't see that quite happening yet.....
I just wanna say, I'm really glad you made this post. This is pretty much my exact thinking about the matchups as they exist now, and I'm sure many others feel the same way.
The only way to keep the larva mechanic and the scouting imbalances in the game currently is to somehow make tech timings that give you the capability of punishing the Zerg by severely damaging him if he doesn't tech. As you said, this affects the other matchup balances too. I think the easiest practical solution is to remove or lessen the scouting imbalance (changing creep speed to a tech or something) or decreasing the larva mechanic's power or some combination of both.
Of course it's harder to comment on specific techs and builds than it is on general game mechanics, but I think you hit on a lot of the worries I have about the matchup balance.
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On September 13 2009 14:51 Joneagle_X wrote:
Also @ amph, the cybernetics core costs 150 minerals in the latest build. :D
you have reason, so actually sc2armory has wrong stats... therefore, i believe that it is better to consider sc2pod
someone has tried to build two cc in own base so that he has two Mule?
or perhaps now the start, against zerg, will be fast 2 fact and then hellion mass(seeing the hellion stats, i noticed that they are very good against light units, with their 90hp plus 15damage vs light and an upgrade that give them another +10 vs light...) , and against toss mass infantry
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OK I had enough of the pointless bickering of theory only discussions based off of limited proof.
BLIZZARD, WHERES OUR BATTLE REPORTS!?!?! thats what I wanna know. That way we have a new basis of where the content is all heading. I thought we'd have a few more by now and still we are left in the fucking dust.
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terrans can go 2 rax with reactors and produce enough units to retake map control, even with 1 rax and reactor should be enough to allow you to hold the base assuming theres block at choke
also terrans could try to expand take their natural and then transform into a plantary fortress and that will end whatever all attacks until mid game
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yeah, planetary fortress is the way to deal with the zerg threat
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On September 16 2009 18:32 Amph wrote:
yeah, planetary fortress is the way to deal with the zerg threat
There you go, everyone.
/thread
-edit:
/sarcasm
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On September 17 2009 12:36 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2009 18:32 Amph wrote:
yeah, planetary fortress is the way to deal with the zerg threat There you go, everyone. /thread
Wouldn't that cripple Terran economically? Sure, you might not get ling rushed, but you're missing out on the MULE. By mid game, you'll be left behind.
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ok, but the PF let you go straight in tier 2, and we now that zerg on tier 2 has nothing good, therefore you force him to go tier3..this is an advantage
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I'd be much more interested in reading David Kim's opinion of the article.
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On September 17 2009 12:36 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2009 18:32 Amph wrote:
yeah, planetary fortress is the way to deal with the zerg threat There you go, everyone. /thread -edit: /sarcasm
rofl
im impressed people didnt get it
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This is just theorycrafting at the moment, and I'd really like someone to test this out:
Overlords can spawn creep. With a spawning pool out, drones can morph on creep into spine crawler (essentially a sunken). This takes 50 seconds and 100 minerals, so could easily be done outside a wall-in if the initial overlord goes the right direction (early dronescout perhaps to get the cheese overspine in the right direction?)
I think this is going to be much more of a problem for a protoss wall in/block than terran, due to zealots being melee while marines are ranged. If the wall in involves a zealot block, the spine will force the zealot off of the blocking square. Even if you could wall in successfully in the face of a spine rush, there's still another problem. The Z player has you contained until you build enough to break a spine or two or however many they send up, and has a queen and thus can power drones and possibly also expand.
Also of note is the fact that spine crawlers are range 7, while marines are range 5, so the spine can be placed so that marines would have to be in front of the wall in to shoot the spine, whereupon the early lings could attack them. Also, spine crawlers can move, so this can be built just outside visual range of the wall in and you wouldn't know how many of them were being built unless you scouted how many drones were running to your base, and then have them + overlord moved to attack the wall in.
tl;dr version Zerg can sunken rush any race in SC2 with an overlord sent the right direction.
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Zurich15314 Posts
Nice idea, but the creep drop ability only works on Lair. I did this a couple of times for fun (even did "sunkdrops" on the cliff on LT) last time I played, but it's not really viable in a real game. Tier 2 of P and T should have no problem of breaking sunkens outside their base, should it happen they let them get rooted there in the first place.
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On September 30 2009 05:33 zatic wrote:
Nice idea, but the creep drop ability only works on Lair.
This makes me very, very sad.
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If overlords had creep drop from the start, you could probably just drop creep to prevent completing a block at the choke, depending on starting distance.
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Calgary25966 Posts
On September 30 2009 06:09 Tsagacity wrote:
If overlords had creep drop from the start, you could probably just drop creep to prevent completing a block at the choke, depending on starting distance.
lol that would be so annoying
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On September 30 2009 06:25 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2009 06:09 Tsagacity wrote:
If overlords had creep drop from the start, you could probably just drop creep to prevent completing a block at the choke, depending on starting distance. lol that would be so annoying
yea I used a creep drop on a guy's nat lol, he couldn't make his nexus. 10 years of fucking probe harassing my zerg expo , payback is a mother fucker.
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On September 30 2009 06:40 CharlieMurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2009 06:25 Chill wrote:On September 30 2009 06:09 Tsagacity wrote:
If overlords had creep drop from the start, you could probably just drop creep to prevent completing a block at the choke, depending on starting distance. lol that would be so annoying yea I used a creep drop on a guy's nat lol, he couldn't make his nexus. 10 years of fucking probe harassing my zerg expo , payback is a mother fucker.
Lol. I would love to do this. But could you creep drop in expansion areas and make a spine crawler to prevent them from expanding to that spot?
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On September 30 2009 06:57 zergnewb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2009 06:40 CharlieMurphy wrote:On September 30 2009 06:25 Chill wrote:On September 30 2009 06:09 Tsagacity wrote:
If overlords had creep drop from the start, you could probably just drop creep to prevent completing a block at the choke, depending on starting distance. lol that would be so annoying yea I used a creep drop on a guy's nat lol, he couldn't make his nexus. 10 years of fucking probe harassing my zerg expo , payback is a mother fucker. Lol. I would love to do this. But could you creep drop in expansion areas and make a spine crawler to prevent them from expanding to that spot?
Better yet, if you had a queen in the overlord you could spawn a creep tumor on the spot to completly prevent expanding until they have cloak detection. :D
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EPT
