• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:01
CEST 12:01
KST 19:01
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL47Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4
Community News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack2Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0
StarCraft 2
General
Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Official Replay Pack BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation
Tourneys
[GSL 2025] Code S:Season 2 - RO8 - Group A Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 $3,500 WardiTV European League 2025
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans?
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET NA Team League 6/8/2025 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Armies of Exigo - YesYes?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 32479 users

Karune explains how T or P counter 1hatch hydra. - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 Next All
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25977 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 18:33:56
September 10 2009 18:33 GMT
#21
He has no idea what he's talking about (as in he's completely and totally missed the issue) and I will be releasing an article soon addressing this nonsense.
Moderator
Pufftrees
Profile Joined March 2009
2449 Posts
September 10 2009 18:35 GMT
#22
He didn't address any of the real economic concerns or the meta-strategy advantage it gives... which is pretty much everything. Beta testing should fix it though, but they seem pretty clueless at the moment.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
September 10 2009 18:42 GMT
#23
There's also another issue: even if 1-hatch-queen is balanced relative to the other races, it does nothing about the fact that 1-hatch-queen is still more viable than other zerg openings (I could be wrong, but the Queen seems to negate all reasons to go hatchery before pool; or even any early hatchery at all). What's more, if there's only 1 viable zerg opening, it puts adverse metagame pressure on the other races to use only counters to that opening--leading to a stale metagame overall.
Moderator
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 18:50:10
September 10 2009 18:49 GMT
#24
Everyone needs to stop worrying about this. If beta comes and zerg just rofflestomps everyone into the ground then it will change.

It's a non-issue really since beta will be to solve things exactly like this... and unlike now if it really is OP, then blizzard can't hide behind secret builds and timings when the whole world is exposed to how, potentially, OP builds like this are.

Yes, this also means that articles, like the one Chill is planning on making, are both useless and inflamatory. Wait for beta people, abuse the fuck out of it and force them to change. Simple as that.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25977 Posts
September 10 2009 18:51 GMT
#25
On September 11 2009 03:49 On_Slaught wrote:
Yes, this also means that articles, like the one Chill is planning on making, are both useless and inflamatory. Wait for beta people, abuse the fuck out of it and force them to change. Simple as that.


Please explain why the article I've been writing is useless so I can stop writing it. Further, please explain why it is inflamatory.
Moderator
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
September 10 2009 18:53 GMT
#26
On September 11 2009 03:17 Teejing wrote:
Would have been 2x cooler if karune did 2 mini battle reports for demonstration. ^^


I agree, more battlereports please :D
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15325 Posts
September 10 2009 18:55 GMT
#27
I think we should all wait at least until the beta of Chill's article is released. Speculating about it's usefulness is just inflammatory at this point.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 19:09:58
September 10 2009 18:56 GMT
#28
Well I think that put to rest the idea that they understand the problem with Zerg and the inject larva ability. When directly asked the question about Zerg macro flexibility, the answer turns out to be about how to stop early all-ins that they wouldn't be able to scout.

It also assumes that the Zerg player would be silly enough to suicide the early army into the solid defense despite the fact if the Zerg realized that the defense is a well prepared wall in, the Zerg player would still be at economic parity with the T or P - basically Zerg all-ins aren't complete all-ins in SC2. At least, the beta will wake them up to the possibilities.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
Equaoh
Profile Joined October 2008
Canada427 Posts
September 10 2009 18:57 GMT
#29
Karune doesn't seem to realize that not all 1hatch queen play = fast zerglings or hydra break.
Oh well, looking forward to the swarm overrunning everyone until Blizzard rebalances things.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
September 10 2009 19:02 GMT
#30
On September 11 2009 03:49 On_Slaught wrote:
Everyone needs to stop worrying about this. If beta comes and zerg just rofflestomps everyone into the ground then it will change.

It's a non-issue really since beta will be to solve things exactly like this... and unlike now if it really is OP, then blizzard can't hide behind secret builds and timings when the whole world is exposed to how, potentially, OP builds like this are.

Yes, this also means that articles, like the one Chill is planning on making, are both useless and inflamatory. Wait for beta people, abuse the fuck out of it and force them to change. Simple as that.

The issue right now isn't even whether zerg is imbalanced or not. The issue is that Karune failed to address the question asked at all. There's no way they could address the issue of balance if they aren't even looking at it from the right angle.
Moderator
Santrega
Profile Joined January 2009
United States29 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 19:11:29
September 10 2009 19:09 GMT
#31
On September 11 2009 04:02 TheYango wrote:
There's no way they could address the issue of balance if they aren't even looking at it from the right angle.


The only problem with that is, they arent looking to address the issue of balance unless its a huge problem. If it isnt painfully obvious, it doesnt need to be fixed until after beta comes out. If you go fixing things now before people really have a chance to test it, you are just going to end up re-fixing everything, which is basically both a waste of time and resources, and also not very smart.

They only need to make sure the core of the game is balanced before beta, as in the only thing left is tweaking of unit attributes, build times, and cost. I believe most of the problems with zerg found in that article can be fixed with minor tweaks, and really don't require a response, nor any further development time before beta.
Teejing
Profile Joined January 2009
Germany1360 Posts
September 10 2009 19:16 GMT
#32
Nice Article, but it still looks like terrans has no mapcontrol until hellions and Protoss has to wait for chargelots.

By this time Z could expand while speedlings deny any scouting.
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
September 10 2009 19:24 GMT
#33
On September 11 2009 03:51 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2009 03:49 On_Slaught wrote:
Yes, this also means that articles, like the one Chill is planning on making, are both useless and inflamatory. Wait for beta people, abuse the fuck out of it and force them to change. Simple as that.


Please explain why the article I've been writing is useless so I can stop writing it. Further, please explain why it is inflamatory.


Nothing I can say will stop you from writing the article (which is fine. i'm kinda curious what it will say), but it will only cause more bickering about blizzards competance and create unjustified fear in a game that hasn't even gone to beta where there is a 99.9999999999999999% chance of this very problem being fixed and becomming a non-issue in the first few weeks.
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
September 10 2009 19:37 GMT
#34
On September 11 2009 03:29 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2009 03:17 PokePill wrote:
Karune was like a 45% War3 player (Call him D-) when he played in games vs BNet forumers (who are like D+ equivalents), why would he be any better at a more difficult game (SC2). His opinion on game balance is completely worthless, and by the way, we are still waiting for the patch and map pool changes he promised to us on the forums in 2007.

But I mean it is nice to see the COMMUNITY MANAGER post a few times every couple of months with the COMMUNITY.

He's just like some random bystander that works there as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sure there are janitors that work at the offices that have more valuable input.

Well, he's probably played more SC2 than almost anyone else, so maybe he's not the second coming of Sun Tzu, but I don't think holding old records against him is fair.


He was also unbeatable at that last SC2 show, where people could play him and the others for betakeys, he's supposedly second only to David Kim.
number1gog
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1081 Posts
September 10 2009 20:16 GMT
#35
On September 11 2009 03:55 zatic wrote:
I think we should all wait at least until the beta of Chill's article is released. Speculating about it's usefulness is just inflammatory at this point.

5/5, would quote again.
5sz6sz7sz1a2a3a4a kwanrollllllled
Captain Peabody
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3098 Posts
September 10 2009 20:23 GMT
#36
Keep in mind that Karune is not the balance designer--he's the community manager. Just because he might be wrong doesn't mean everyone at Blizzard are idiots.

Also keep in mind that Karune likely knows more about the game than 90% of the people on this board. So he probably knows what he's talking about, even if you don't agree with it.

But yes, I agree that this is still a problem, though not a huge one. It's nice to know that 1-hatch Hydra breaks aren't unstoppable, though...
Dies Irae venit. youtube.com/SnobbinsFilms
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
September 10 2009 20:38 GMT
#37
On September 11 2009 03:42 TheYango wrote:
There's also another issue: even if 1-hatch-queen is balanced relative to the other races, it does nothing about the fact that 1-hatch-queen is still more viable than other zerg openings (I could be wrong, but the Queen seems to negate all reasons to go hatchery before pool; or even any early hatchery at all). What's more, if there's only 1 viable zerg opening, it puts adverse metagame pressure on the other races to use only counters to that opening--leading to a stale metagame overall.


This and the fact that 1 hatch play is totally unzergish (well, except for the most aggressive builds) is what bothers me the most.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
volcane
Profile Joined September 2008
United Kingdom24 Posts
September 10 2009 20:41 GMT
#38
On September 11 2009 04:24 On_Slaught wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2009 03:51 Chill wrote:
On September 11 2009 03:49 On_Slaught wrote:
Yes, this also means that articles, like the one Chill is planning on making, are both useless and inflamatory. Wait for beta people, abuse the fuck out of it and force them to change. Simple as that.


Please explain why the article I've been writing is useless so I can stop writing it. Further, please explain why it is inflamatory.


Nothing I can say will stop you from writing the article (which is fine. i'm kinda curious what it will say), but it will only cause more bickering about blizzards competance and create unjustified fear in a game that hasn't even gone to beta where there is a 99.9999999999999999% chance of this very problem being fixed and becomming a non-issue in the first few weeks.


The best way to ensure that this is a non issue is to attract attention to it. I don't think this balance discussion is inflammatory, or will negaticvely affect sales - its very early in the day, but I think if you care about how good the game is and are in a position to carefully describe the issues then it can only be helpful.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 20:43:19
September 10 2009 20:42 GMT
#39
On September 11 2009 05:23 Captain Peabody wrote:
Keep in mind that Karune is not the balance designer--he's the community manager. Just because he might be wrong doesn't mean everyone at Blizzard are idiots.

Also keep in mind that Karune likely knows more about the game than 90% of the people on this board. So he probably knows what he's talking about, even if you don't agree with it.

But yes, I agree that this is still a problem, though not a huge one. It's nice to know that 1-hatch Hydra breaks aren't unstoppable, though...

99%

EDIT: 99.99% actually. I'm leaving the possibility of David Kim having a TL account open!
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25977 Posts
September 10 2009 20:45 GMT
#40
On September 11 2009 05:23 Captain Peabody wrote:
Keep in mind that Karune is not the balance designer--he's the community manager. Just because he might be wrong doesn't mean everyone at Blizzard are idiots.

Also keep in mind that Karune likely knows more about the game than 90% of the people on this board. So he probably knows what he's talking about, even if you don't agree with it.

But yes, I agree that this is still a problem, though not a huge one. It's nice to know that 1-hatch Hydra breaks aren't unstoppable, though...

Did you read what he wrote? Not only did he not address the issue, he didn't even come close. Someone asked about the Queen letting Zerg buildup in either direction too quickly and he talked about stopping a Zergling rush. What?
Moderator
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
GSL Code S
09:30
Ro8 - Group A
Rogue vs GuMihoLIVE!
Maru vs Solar
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech74
EnDerr 40
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 32061
Calm 1636
Pusan 439
BeSt 349
TY 289
EffOrt 221
Jaedong 178
Bisu 161
ToSsGirL 138
PianO 97
[ Show more ]
Hyun 85
Killer 78
Shine 70
Aegong 64
sorry 53
Soulkey 33
[sc1f]eonzerg 31
Movie 23
NaDa 23
Sharp 20
Barracks 18
NotJumperer 16
HiyA 13
Sacsri 5
Dota 2
XcaliburYe534
BananaSlamJamma394
420jenkins370
Fuzer 225
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss691
Stewie2K596
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor153
Other Games
singsing1483
ceh9608
Happy435
crisheroes265
XaKoH 244
Pyrionflax167
Crank 152
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream4035
Other Games
gamesdonequick335
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 44
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 2
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• WagamamaTV43
Upcoming Events
Online Event
13h 59m
Replay Cast
15h 59m
GSL Code S
23h 29m
herO vs Zoun
Classic vs Bunny
The PondCast
23h 59m
Replay Cast
1d 13h
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
OSC
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
2 days
SOOP
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
Cheesadelphia
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
GSL Code S
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
RSL Revival
6 days
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.