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Active: 31137 users

Karune explains how T or P counter 1hatch hydra. - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25977 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 18:33:56
September 10 2009 18:33 GMT
#21
He has no idea what he's talking about (as in he's completely and totally missed the issue) and I will be releasing an article soon addressing this nonsense.
Moderator
Pufftrees
Profile Joined March 2009
2449 Posts
September 10 2009 18:35 GMT
#22
He didn't address any of the real economic concerns or the meta-strategy advantage it gives... which is pretty much everything. Beta testing should fix it though, but they seem pretty clueless at the moment.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
September 10 2009 18:42 GMT
#23
There's also another issue: even if 1-hatch-queen is balanced relative to the other races, it does nothing about the fact that 1-hatch-queen is still more viable than other zerg openings (I could be wrong, but the Queen seems to negate all reasons to go hatchery before pool; or even any early hatchery at all). What's more, if there's only 1 viable zerg opening, it puts adverse metagame pressure on the other races to use only counters to that opening--leading to a stale metagame overall.
Moderator
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 18:50:10
September 10 2009 18:49 GMT
#24
Everyone needs to stop worrying about this. If beta comes and zerg just rofflestomps everyone into the ground then it will change.

It's a non-issue really since beta will be to solve things exactly like this... and unlike now if it really is OP, then blizzard can't hide behind secret builds and timings when the whole world is exposed to how, potentially, OP builds like this are.

Yes, this also means that articles, like the one Chill is planning on making, are both useless and inflamatory. Wait for beta people, abuse the fuck out of it and force them to change. Simple as that.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25977 Posts
September 10 2009 18:51 GMT
#25
On September 11 2009 03:49 On_Slaught wrote:
Yes, this also means that articles, like the one Chill is planning on making, are both useless and inflamatory. Wait for beta people, abuse the fuck out of it and force them to change. Simple as that.


Please explain why the article I've been writing is useless so I can stop writing it. Further, please explain why it is inflamatory.
Moderator
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
September 10 2009 18:53 GMT
#26
On September 11 2009 03:17 Teejing wrote:
Would have been 2x cooler if karune did 2 mini battle reports for demonstration. ^^


I agree, more battlereports please :D
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15325 Posts
September 10 2009 18:55 GMT
#27
I think we should all wait at least until the beta of Chill's article is released. Speculating about it's usefulness is just inflammatory at this point.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 19:09:58
September 10 2009 18:56 GMT
#28
Well I think that put to rest the idea that they understand the problem with Zerg and the inject larva ability. When directly asked the question about Zerg macro flexibility, the answer turns out to be about how to stop early all-ins that they wouldn't be able to scout.

It also assumes that the Zerg player would be silly enough to suicide the early army into the solid defense despite the fact if the Zerg realized that the defense is a well prepared wall in, the Zerg player would still be at economic parity with the T or P - basically Zerg all-ins aren't complete all-ins in SC2. At least, the beta will wake them up to the possibilities.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
Equaoh
Profile Joined October 2008
Canada427 Posts
September 10 2009 18:57 GMT
#29
Karune doesn't seem to realize that not all 1hatch queen play = fast zerglings or hydra break.
Oh well, looking forward to the swarm overrunning everyone until Blizzard rebalances things.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
September 10 2009 19:02 GMT
#30
On September 11 2009 03:49 On_Slaught wrote:
Everyone needs to stop worrying about this. If beta comes and zerg just rofflestomps everyone into the ground then it will change.

It's a non-issue really since beta will be to solve things exactly like this... and unlike now if it really is OP, then blizzard can't hide behind secret builds and timings when the whole world is exposed to how, potentially, OP builds like this are.

Yes, this also means that articles, like the one Chill is planning on making, are both useless and inflamatory. Wait for beta people, abuse the fuck out of it and force them to change. Simple as that.

The issue right now isn't even whether zerg is imbalanced or not. The issue is that Karune failed to address the question asked at all. There's no way they could address the issue of balance if they aren't even looking at it from the right angle.
Moderator
Santrega
Profile Joined January 2009
United States29 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 19:11:29
September 10 2009 19:09 GMT
#31
On September 11 2009 04:02 TheYango wrote:
There's no way they could address the issue of balance if they aren't even looking at it from the right angle.


The only problem with that is, they arent looking to address the issue of balance unless its a huge problem. If it isnt painfully obvious, it doesnt need to be fixed until after beta comes out. If you go fixing things now before people really have a chance to test it, you are just going to end up re-fixing everything, which is basically both a waste of time and resources, and also not very smart.

They only need to make sure the core of the game is balanced before beta, as in the only thing left is tweaking of unit attributes, build times, and cost. I believe most of the problems with zerg found in that article can be fixed with minor tweaks, and really don't require a response, nor any further development time before beta.
Teejing
Profile Joined January 2009
Germany1360 Posts
September 10 2009 19:16 GMT
#32
Nice Article, but it still looks like terrans has no mapcontrol until hellions and Protoss has to wait for chargelots.

By this time Z could expand while speedlings deny any scouting.
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
September 10 2009 19:24 GMT
#33
On September 11 2009 03:51 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2009 03:49 On_Slaught wrote:
Yes, this also means that articles, like the one Chill is planning on making, are both useless and inflamatory. Wait for beta people, abuse the fuck out of it and force them to change. Simple as that.


Please explain why the article I've been writing is useless so I can stop writing it. Further, please explain why it is inflamatory.


Nothing I can say will stop you from writing the article (which is fine. i'm kinda curious what it will say), but it will only cause more bickering about blizzards competance and create unjustified fear in a game that hasn't even gone to beta where there is a 99.9999999999999999% chance of this very problem being fixed and becomming a non-issue in the first few weeks.
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
September 10 2009 19:37 GMT
#34
On September 11 2009 03:29 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2009 03:17 PokePill wrote:
Karune was like a 45% War3 player (Call him D-) when he played in games vs BNet forumers (who are like D+ equivalents), why would he be any better at a more difficult game (SC2). His opinion on game balance is completely worthless, and by the way, we are still waiting for the patch and map pool changes he promised to us on the forums in 2007.

But I mean it is nice to see the COMMUNITY MANAGER post a few times every couple of months with the COMMUNITY.

He's just like some random bystander that works there as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sure there are janitors that work at the offices that have more valuable input.

Well, he's probably played more SC2 than almost anyone else, so maybe he's not the second coming of Sun Tzu, but I don't think holding old records against him is fair.


He was also unbeatable at that last SC2 show, where people could play him and the others for betakeys, he's supposedly second only to David Kim.
number1gog
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1081 Posts
September 10 2009 20:16 GMT
#35
On September 11 2009 03:55 zatic wrote:
I think we should all wait at least until the beta of Chill's article is released. Speculating about it's usefulness is just inflammatory at this point.

5/5, would quote again.
5sz6sz7sz1a2a3a4a kwanrollllllled
Captain Peabody
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3099 Posts
September 10 2009 20:23 GMT
#36
Keep in mind that Karune is not the balance designer--he's the community manager. Just because he might be wrong doesn't mean everyone at Blizzard are idiots.

Also keep in mind that Karune likely knows more about the game than 90% of the people on this board. So he probably knows what he's talking about, even if you don't agree with it.

But yes, I agree that this is still a problem, though not a huge one. It's nice to know that 1-hatch Hydra breaks aren't unstoppable, though...
Dies Irae venit. youtube.com/SnobbinsFilms
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
September 10 2009 20:38 GMT
#37
On September 11 2009 03:42 TheYango wrote:
There's also another issue: even if 1-hatch-queen is balanced relative to the other races, it does nothing about the fact that 1-hatch-queen is still more viable than other zerg openings (I could be wrong, but the Queen seems to negate all reasons to go hatchery before pool; or even any early hatchery at all). What's more, if there's only 1 viable zerg opening, it puts adverse metagame pressure on the other races to use only counters to that opening--leading to a stale metagame overall.


This and the fact that 1 hatch play is totally unzergish (well, except for the most aggressive builds) is what bothers me the most.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
volcane
Profile Joined September 2008
United Kingdom24 Posts
September 10 2009 20:41 GMT
#38
On September 11 2009 04:24 On_Slaught wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2009 03:51 Chill wrote:
On September 11 2009 03:49 On_Slaught wrote:
Yes, this also means that articles, like the one Chill is planning on making, are both useless and inflamatory. Wait for beta people, abuse the fuck out of it and force them to change. Simple as that.


Please explain why the article I've been writing is useless so I can stop writing it. Further, please explain why it is inflamatory.


Nothing I can say will stop you from writing the article (which is fine. i'm kinda curious what it will say), but it will only cause more bickering about blizzards competance and create unjustified fear in a game that hasn't even gone to beta where there is a 99.9999999999999999% chance of this very problem being fixed and becomming a non-issue in the first few weeks.


The best way to ensure that this is a non issue is to attract attention to it. I don't think this balance discussion is inflammatory, or will negaticvely affect sales - its very early in the day, but I think if you care about how good the game is and are in a position to carefully describe the issues then it can only be helpful.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 20:43:19
September 10 2009 20:42 GMT
#39
On September 11 2009 05:23 Captain Peabody wrote:
Keep in mind that Karune is not the balance designer--he's the community manager. Just because he might be wrong doesn't mean everyone at Blizzard are idiots.

Also keep in mind that Karune likely knows more about the game than 90% of the people on this board. So he probably knows what he's talking about, even if you don't agree with it.

But yes, I agree that this is still a problem, though not a huge one. It's nice to know that 1-hatch Hydra breaks aren't unstoppable, though...

99%

EDIT: 99.99% actually. I'm leaving the possibility of David Kim having a TL account open!
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25977 Posts
September 10 2009 20:45 GMT
#40
On September 11 2009 05:23 Captain Peabody wrote:
Keep in mind that Karune is not the balance designer--he's the community manager. Just because he might be wrong doesn't mean everyone at Blizzard are idiots.

Also keep in mind that Karune likely knows more about the game than 90% of the people on this board. So he probably knows what he's talking about, even if you don't agree with it.

But yes, I agree that this is still a problem, though not a huge one. It's nice to know that 1-hatch Hydra breaks aren't unstoppable, though...

Did you read what he wrote? Not only did he not address the issue, he didn't even come close. Someone asked about the Queen letting Zerg buildup in either direction too quickly and he talked about stopping a Zergling rush. What?
Moderator
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