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On October 25 2012 03:48 Masayume wrote:
I actually like the new oracle spells, but I feel like Pulsar Beam could use an extra bit of utility.
I think Pulsar beam would be perfect if it not only did 20 DPS to buildings, but also applies a debuff for 15 seconds that slows production by a %, something like 25%. This way a good/fast player can quickly hit enemy buildings and get out, or even kill a key structure later on in the game when the gas investment is not that intensive relative to the overall gas investment of the Protoss army.
Good job on this on Blizzard! <3
Great suggestion!
+1 for this
edit/ Perhaps On top of slowing production & research, also slows attack speed, or repair / regen speed so this is also effective against static defences.
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On October 25 2012 02:43 myRZeth wrote:
can you slow down enemy orkers with that time field?
I guess that's sort of the point  Like it! I thought dealing damage to buildings regenerates energy for the oracle though? So the more you channel the more you can slow down his eco?
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On October 25 2012 03:57 LuisFrost wrote:
Oh wow, that time warp ability seems like an alternative to force fields. Maybe you could have an oracle / gateway army with no sentries. I like it.
Thats exactly what I'm thinking. Oracles cost so much gas you cant have a sentry-heavy gateway force to support them. This lets you get aggressive in different ways though--you can march across the map with some slow Zealots, and use Oracles to make sure they can close the distance when the fight goes down. Or you can poke a bit, then use Time Warp to cover your army's retreat. The one time you don't want to use it, is when you're forcefielding, because then its redunant (who cares about slowing down units that are trapped in place anyway). Its a nice way to give Protoss a different option for a support spell for Gateway armies in the early game. You can have the traditional Sentry with FF, or you can spend your gas on Oracles and use Time Warp for either harass, or army support.
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Can the oracle be cheaper now? The abilities actually sound fun, but 150/150 is way too expensive for what you get.
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On October 25 2012 02:31 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:21 kcdc wrote:
This is a combat buff for the oracle but a big harass nerf. Buildings have hundreds or thousands of hit points. 20 DPS isn't enough to kill anything. Adding on to this, a greater spire has 1k hp. This means that if you make 5 oracles (reasonable assumption for a lategame scenario), it takes 10 seconds to kill it...10 seconds is a whole lot of time for such an expensive unit. Earlier on in the game, a single Oracle isn't going to kill anything except a third. I wish they just gave up and also gave it something that kills workers.
voidray is way better then oracle then . killing third voidray charge does almost same damage and costs no energy + you can snipe overlords and queens aswel .
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Remember, judge mostly the ability (Pulsar), not just the numbers. Numbers can be tweaked easily. Is it more balanced at 10 DPS? 30 DPS? Don't discard the ability just on its numbers.
In Time Warp I see an alternative to FF's which is great and opens up Protoss strategies like nothing else ever has. Absolutely wonderful idea.
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On October 25 2012 04:05 kcdc wrote:
Can the oracle be cheaper now? The abilities actually sound fun, but 150/150 is way too expensive for what you get.
agreed. I'd much rather have the Oracle be given powers that aren't too strong, but be cheap enough that you can get a couple Oracles and/or mix up with other units, rather than making Oracles super expensive and then trying to give them abilities powerful enough to justify the high cost.
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On October 25 2012 04:07 Grubby wrote:
Remember, judge mostly the ability (Pulsar), not just the numbers. Numbers can be tweaked easily. Is it more balanced at 10 DPS? 30 DPS? Don't discard the ability just on its numbers.
In Time Warp I see an alternative to FF's which is great and opens up Protoss strategies like nothing else ever has. Absolutely wonderful idea.
I agree with both these points. Pulsar numbers seem wonky, but those can be fixed it the basic idea is sound. Time Warp is an awesome way to expand Protoss gameplay and open up options that don't rely on FF
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On October 25 2012 02:31 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:21 kcdc wrote:
This is a combat buff for the oracle but a big harass nerf. Buildings have hundreds or thousands of hit points. 20 DPS isn't enough to kill anything. Adding on to this, a greater spire has 1k hp. This means that if you make 5 oracles (reasonable assumption for a lategame scenario), it takes 10 seconds to kill it...10 seconds is a whole lot of time for such an expensive unit. Earlier on in the game, a single Oracle isn't going to kill anything except a third. I wish they just gave up and also gave it something that kills workers.
True, but it could be useful versus assimilators, refineries, extractors, no? All low HP but important.
Btw, it's great that you post consistently on HOTS, Grubby. Your thoughts are always appreciated.
Edit/ Oh, and yeah, I am excited about Time Warp. For the first time, I actually like the Oracle.
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I see Pulsar Beam killing Tech buildings with 2-5 Oracles. Maybe DPS should be 30. If too much Turrets/Spores, focus on using TimeWarp/Revelation. They now spent money on static defense. If greater spire only defended by Spores, that's when you use Zealot warpins from speedprism. If only spines, you use oracles. If Spores protect all and no battles happening for Timewarp, you can use Timewarp on Drones to slow down mineral mining, or use Pulsar Beam to kill all the outlying Extractors. So many possibilities.
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On October 25 2012 04:01 Incomplet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 03:48 Masayume wrote:
I actually like the new oracle spells, but I feel like Pulsar Beam could use an extra bit of utility.
I think Pulsar beam would be perfect if it not only did 20 DPS to buildings, but also applies a debuff for 15 seconds that slows production by a %, something like 25%. This way a good/fast player can quickly hit enemy buildings and get out, or even kill a key structure later on in the game when the gas investment is not that intensive relative to the overall gas investment of the Protoss army.
Good job on this on Blizzard! <3 Great suggestion! +1 for this edit/ Perhaps On top of slowing production & research, also slows attack speed, or repair / regen speed so this is also effective against static defences.
That actually does seem pretty cool (and also fits the new "time distortion" theme of the oracle). Slowing production and static defense attack speed would be a interesting addition to the attack.
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On October 25 2012 04:07 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:31 Teoita wrote:On October 25 2012 02:21 kcdc wrote:
This is a combat buff for the oracle but a big harass nerf. Buildings have hundreds or thousands of hit points. 20 DPS isn't enough to kill anything. Adding on to this, a greater spire has 1k hp. This means that if you make 5 oracles (reasonable assumption for a lategame scenario), it takes 10 seconds to kill it...10 seconds is a whole lot of time for such an expensive unit. Earlier on in the game, a single Oracle isn't going to kill anything except a third. I wish they just gave up and also gave it something that kills workers. voidray is way better then oracle then . killing third voidray charge does almost same damage and costs no energy + you can snipe overlords and queens aswel .
That's exactly why Pulsar Beam shouldn't have crazy DPS on buildings, it would make Void Rays even less useful. They should just add an additional tactical factor to the ability instead. And on that note I think giving Void Rays bonus damage vs buildings, say when fully charged, would be a great way to give the unit an actual defined role that it could actually do well, rather than the completely unrefined (and mostly useless) role it currently serves.
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Hmm, TimeWarp:
- If you bubble a building does it slow production / upgrades?
- If you bubble minerals or a gas extractor does it slow down gathering?
- If you bubble a turret/cannon/spine/spore, does it slow down the attack speed and/or projectiles?
- If projectiles pass through a bubble (say stalker shots or muta glaives) are they also slowed?
So many questions... if it does all these things it's going to be an awesome ability with many uses.
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On October 25 2012 04:12 Grubby wrote:
I see Pulsar Beam killing Tech buildings with 2-5 Oracles. Maybe DPS should be 30. If too much Turrets/Spores, focus on using TimeWarp/Revelation. They now spent money on static defense. If greater spire only defended by Spores, that's when you use Zealot warpins from speedprism. If only spines, you use oracles. If Spores protect all and no battles happening for Timewarp, you can use Timewarp on Drones to slow down mineral mining, or use Pulsar Beam to kill all the outlying Extractors. So many possibilities.
grubby already getting creative
will you stream some hots games for us?
please lovely grubby
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see Pulsar Beam killing Tech buildings with 2-5 Oracles. Maybe DPS should be 30. If too much Turrets/Spores, focus on using TimeWarp/Revelation. They now spent money on static defense. If greater spire only defended by Spores, that's when you use Zealot warpins from speedprism. If only spines, you use oracles. If Spores protect all and no battles happening for Timewarp, you can use Timewarp on Drones to slow down mineral mining, or use Pulsar Beam to kill all the outlying Extractors. So many possibilities.
extractor sniping is a good idea. Even one Oracle can snipe an Extractor in just 25 seconds which isn't bad at all.
Also, unlike Entomb, Time Warp can slow down gas minining as well as mineral mining.
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I think people are missing out on how good the pulsar beam is when it comes to harassing.It might need to be tweked with the numbers but the basic idea sounds nice!.
For Terran you are able to drain energy from orbital and in that sense limiting the mule and doing economic damage that way.
mule=50 energie and it takes 25 sec to drain 50 energie energy(keep in mind this is blizzard seconds so its less then 25 sec). 20 seconds to destroy reactors, tech lab and supply depot. For every Oracle u add the time is lessen with 50%.
For protos it works similar where u limit the chrono boost for your opponent. Its 12,5 blizzard secs to remove 1 potential chrono with one oracel.
For zerg u can probably deny an early hatch (hopefully when the building is under construction also).
Think of it like this:
a fully charged void ray does 13(+1.79) and the Oracle does 20. Old void ray openings normally hit around when the third base was under construction. The build time is the same and the cost is 100 minerals less makes it so that the oracle might hit before that with its increased speed over the void ray. If we then add to the fact it has an increased dps it should deny the third with out any problem. This means that an stargate opening can punish zerg that goes for an earlier third. So instead of opening void ray to deny the third opening with Oracle does the job better.
Also blizard have said in a earlier with a blue post that they are looking in to changing the voidray also.
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Why don't they just give it an x energy spell that snatches minerals from workers? Shift clickable, but uses energy even if it targets a worker that isn't carrying minerals. Stores minerals in the oracle, cap of say...300...and it returns them to the nexus like a probe would. SNAP, doing econ damage, not killing workers, requires micro.
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On October 25 2012 04:05 kcdc wrote:
Can the oracle be cheaper now? The abilities actually sound fun, but 150/150 is way too expensive for what you get.
A stimmed marine has better DPS than the Oracle and can actually target workers. I do not see how this is worth building for harassment purposes.
A Zealot has higher DPS, so why would I not just drop Zealots with a Warp Prism instead?
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A stimmed marine has better DPS than the Oracle and can actually target workers. I do not see how this is worth building for harassment purposes.
well, Time Warp can slow down worker movement and thereby slow mining rates on both minerals and gas. whether its strong enough to make it preferable to just getting some phoenixes or something remains to be seen.
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On October 25 2012 04:17 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 04:07 xsnac wrote:On October 25 2012 02:31 Teoita wrote:On October 25 2012 02:21 kcdc wrote:
This is a combat buff for the oracle but a big harass nerf. Buildings have hundreds or thousands of hit points. 20 DPS isn't enough to kill anything. Adding on to this, a greater spire has 1k hp. This means that if you make 5 oracles (reasonable assumption for a lategame scenario), it takes 10 seconds to kill it...10 seconds is a whole lot of time for such an expensive unit. Earlier on in the game, a single Oracle isn't going to kill anything except a third. I wish they just gave up and also gave it something that kills workers. voidray is way better then oracle then . killing third voidray charge does almost same damage and costs no energy + you can snipe overlords and queens aswel . That's exactly why Pulsar Beam shouldn't have crazy DPS on buildings, it would make Void Rays even less useful. They should just add an additional tactical factor to the ability instead. And on that note I think giving Void Rays bonus damage vs buildings, say when fully charged, would be a great way to give the unit an actual defined role that it could actually do well, rather than the completely unrefined (and mostly useless) role it currently serves.
You would actually see more use of Voids in their only time slot (~1-2 min of midgame PvZ) because the main deterrent of Voids is Spores, so if an Oracle becomes a Spore-killer, you could see a resurgence of Void harass. I wouldn't worry about Void Rays because they're a mess to begin with. They're one of the WoL units that needs looking at once the HotS units are squared away.
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EPT
