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ClownPatrol
9 Posts
On September 09 2012 21:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: What's your problem, son? The entire Protoss race is getting shat on, not just the Tempest.Also: the tempest needs to be changed somehow. It's just getting shat on. | ||
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Svetgm
Canada76 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43852 Posts
On September 09 2012 22:17 ClownPatrol wrote: What's your problem, son? The entire Protoss race is getting shat on, not just the Tempest. As a Protoss player who's been constantly watching HotS streams (especially the Protoss ones), I'm kind of afraid of this too... after all, it seems that the warhound, swarm host, and viper have all been integrated incredibly well into army compositions, and the three new Protoss units have really failed to impress me too. The Terran and Zerg units have strengthened glaring weaknesses (e.g. warhound allows for mech play, viper allows for breaking siege lines, swarm host allows for a siege contain of the Zerg variety). On the other hand, it seems the intent of the new Protoss units were for peripheral assistance, like light harassment or making it easier to get up a fast expansion. And with these peripherals, I feel that their main purpose can be shut down rather easily. See an oracle that wants to harass your mineral line? Make a spore crawler or turret and you're fine (oracles are incredibly brittle too)... not to mention the fact that players will get used to instantly killing off the frozen minerals. Early mothership core for fast expansion in PvP? I've already seen standard blink observer play and even 4gate easily shut that down (they just run circles around- or focus down- the mothership core, and the expander simply doesn't have enough units to defend). That being said, I'm hoping that eventual strategies and cute tricks can evolve around the oracle and mothership core, simply because they've got so many different abilities. I think the potential is there, and I recognize that it's only in the early beta stages of HotS. Hopefully, my optimism isn't completely naive  On the other hand, the tempest seems to be a rather dead end unit unless Blizzard gives it an actual ability or changes something standard about it (e.g. give it splash damage, considering how slowly it attacks). I've seen even mass tempest (a huuuge resource sink and tech tree focus, mind you) get shut down with relative ease by most things that shoot air. I don't see how the tempest can ever evolve into a useful unit because it lacks the potential to be used in any way other than a "long range tickler" at the moment. So while I think that- at the moment- all of our units were designed with less useful intentions than the Terran and Zerg ones, I'm hoping that we Protoss players can find a way to come up with some ways to make some of our new units useful. (Basically, we need Kiwikaki.) I just think we're really screwed with the current tempest model though. This gives me hope: http://i.minus.com/ibtmfIaY1rXUZV.gif | ||
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Rah
United States973 Posts
On September 09 2012 09:36 SarcasmMonster wrote: The poll isn't mine, it's from around May. The thread was about "What is your favorite new WOL unit" or something like that, so it only included units not from BW. But calling Immortals retarded and demanding a replacement does not reflect the community's wishes at all. I was calling for a redesign of the immortal to get rid of the power shield and replace it with something like a powershot or a similiar ability to compliment it's offensive power. Then immortal becomes stronger in the back lines, and with a warp prism, tanks become more viable, everyone's happy. The shield is retarded, it was only there to make sure that pure mech never became viable against protoss in WoL. Now they're adding warhound with a silly autocast missile because they want to revert that decision, and the missiles are the only thing in the mech arsenal that can pierce through immortal shields effectively. It's an easy problem to fix, remove the shield and you can scale back the missiles. Maybe my suggestion doesn't reflect the community's wishes because they don't understand what they're missing? That's what his post suggested to me. | ||
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GregMandel
France822 Posts
I don't think you would want to use Dark swar... Uh Blinding cloud over abduct because let's say you want to engage vs marine tank with Muta/Ling/Viper, I'd rather abduct the tanks than use the blinding clouds on the tanks. Effectively, the cloud will only blind one tank, and so will the abduct, but abduct costs less energy and means a free tank for you. | ||
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Rah
United States973 Posts
On September 09 2012 19:04 Miscellany wrote: Mech needs weakpoints, otherwise it would be imbalanced and no-one would go bio. And Thors + vikings do a pretty decent job of dealing with air. If that fails, just go biomech? (add a few marines) I agree that the Warhound needs a redesign though. Even if they copypaste the Goliath it would be an improvement IMO. If they do mech right, we'll be seeing missile turrets and mines accompanying pushes and back at home to deal with some of the air threats. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43852 Posts
On September 09 2012 18:57 Thezzy wrote: The Warhound needs to get AA in its weaponry. Currently anyone going Mech is still forced to get a ton of Vikings. Why not keep the Haywire missiles but increase the reload time a bit, reduce the regular attack damage but give it a separate AA weapon. Needs chitinous plating too. And should move as fast as speedlings. Also, why aren't they permanently cloaked units and count as Terran buildings? They should be able to lift off. You realize that one unit isn't supposed to be able to automatically kill everything else in the game, right? Besides, after the warhound nerf (which came because every Terran player was just massing warhounds and winning games), a bunch of Terrans are going only warhound + thor and still winning. Thors shoot up, by the way. And thors are mech. Also, there's no rule that says you're never allowed to make vikings or marines for light support. | ||
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Rah
United States973 Posts
On September 09 2012 22:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: As a Protoss player who's been constantly watching HotS streams (especially the Protoss ones), I'm kind of afraid of this too... after all, it seems that the warhound, swarm host, and viper have all been integrated incredibly well into army compositions, and the three new Protoss units have really failed to impress me too. The Terran and Zerg units have strengthened glaring weaknesses (e.g. warhound allows for mech play, viper allows for breaking siege lines, swarm host allows for a siege contain of the Zerg variety). On the other hand, it seems the intent of the new Protoss units were for peripheral assistance, like light harassment or making it easier to get up a fast expansion. And with these peripherals, I feel that their main purpose can be shut down rather easily. See an oracle that wants to harass your mineral line? Make a spore crawler or turret and you're fine (oracles are incredibly brittle too)... not to mention the fact that players will get used to instantly killing off the frozen minerals. Early mothership core for fast expansion in PvP? I've already seen standard blink observer play and even 4gate easily shut that down (they just run circles around- or focus down- the mothership core, and the expander simply doesn't have enough units to defend). That being said, I'm hoping that eventual strategies and cute tricks can evolve around the oracle and mothership core, simply because they've got so many different abilities. I think the potential is there, and I recognize that it's only in the early beta stages of HotS. Hopefully, my optimism isn't completely naive On the other hand, the tempest seems to be a rather dead end unit unless Blizzard gives it an actual ability or changes something standard about it (e.g. give it splash damage, considering how slowly it attacks). I've seen even mass tempest (a huuuge resource sink and tech tree focus, mind you) get shut down with relative ease by most things that shoot air. I don't see how the tempest can ever evolve into a useful unit because it lacks the potential to be used in any way other than a "long range tickler" at the moment. So while I think that- at the moment- all of our units were designed with less useful intentions than the Terran and Zerg ones, I'm hoping that we Protoss players can find a way to come up with some ways to make some of our new units useful. (Basically, we need Kiwikaki.) I just think we're really screwed with the current tempest model though. This gives me hope: http://i.minus.com/ibtmfIaY1rXUZV.gif I feel like Blizzard is pulling some power out of the protoss deathball by removing the carrier, and adding in new units that don't compliment the deathball at all, but are instead useful for harassing the army or economy of the opponent long before any big fight happens. I think this is a good direction to go for protoss, but I don't think protoss was ever intended to be the stronger race in a straight up lategame fight on the ground. They're too mobile for that, compared to broodwar mech. The shock from newer protoss players over losing these 1A fights to mech in hots is funny to me. Now they have to learn to play more like BW toss. Whitera was handling mech pretty decently when I watched his stream. | ||
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Diabulus
Bolivia105 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43852 Posts
On September 09 2012 23:16 Diabulus wrote: so, the warhound is just as op as before? Just shooting slower, a massive unit that costs the same as a stalker and can kill immortals stalkers and zealots with ease, not to mention roaches and queens -.- I don't think warhounds are massive units (I've seen them get stopped by forcefields before, rather than crushing through them). Other than that... I suppose they're going to get nerfed until "mass warhound" or "warhound + 1 other unit" doesn't become a standard army composition. I've even seen warhound rushes that just straight up roll over other players, but I'm not sure if that's because the warhound is still overpowered or because players haven't figured out how to handle the attacks yet. The only time I've seen big, early warhound all-in attacks really get shut down in TvP is when the Protoss player rushes for stargate tech and (almost blindly) pumps out void rays (probably assuming that warhounds were coming). | ||
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GregMandel
France822 Posts
On September 09 2012 23:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Needs chitinous plating too. And should move as fast as speedlings. Also, why aren't they permanently cloaked units and count as Terran buildings? They should be able to lift off. You realize that one unit isn't supposed to be able to automatically kill everything else in the game, right? Besides, after the warhound nerf (which came because every Terran player was just massing warhounds and winning games), a bunch of Terrans are going only warhound + thor and still winning. Thors shoot up, by the way. And thors are mech. Also, there's no rule that says you're never allowed to make vikings or marines for light support. Funny coming from a guy who plays a race that shares upgrade for gateway units and robo, and that always stick to one tech path. What he says is : make the WH a goliath. If you think this is a bad idea then GL playing against the WH in its current state and get your immo/stalkers raped hardcore | ||
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Elitios
France164 Posts
I like the change for the viper cloud though, I saw sheth and slush murder every bio comp with it, the radius nerf makes a chance for the mobile bio to dodge them clouds. Also, why not buff the tempest? Everyone is unanimously agreeing that as it stands now it's utterly worthless. Can't wait for the next patch! | ||
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An2quamaraN
Poland379 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43852 Posts
On September 09 2012 23:40 GregMandel wrote: Funny coming from a guy who plays a race that shares upgrade for gateway units and robo, and that always stick to one tech path. What he says is : make the WH a goliath. If you think this is a bad idea then GL playing against the WH in its current state and get your immo/stalkers raped hardcore I'm sorry you feel that the only way to fix the warhound is to make it worse against some ground and also give it anti-air... which would actually make Protosses *less* likely to ever make air units, not more likely (which is rather interesting, considering you're simultaneously harping on Protosses for not making air in PvT, but that's because of things like vikings and marines that existed in WoL. Blizzard did say that they were trying to make Protoss air more viable for HotS, so I don't see how making another AA beast in PvT would do that.) Also, last year called: they wanted their invalid upgrade arguments back. Go look at any ancient threads about comparing different race's upgrades for different units, how much armor/ shields/ hp they actually help, etc. Please don't change the subject here. | ||
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ThatGuy89
United Kingdom1968 Posts
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Zaurus
Singapore676 Posts
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Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
I mean missiles are great for breaking immortal shields, but the warhound doesn't feel like its helping the mech composition (only in terms of denying any mechanical unit on the ground). Mostly because it is so fast and has a pretty good range allowing you to kite, something that doesn't really help tanks, as we can witness in tvz, where tanks are the first to fall since the bio has to kite away. But overall i am confused anyway, since airplay feels less viable in HotS for the toss as well, with a unit missing that can babysit the army and tank alot, while also able to attack over a pretty high range and snipe units fast. The tempest can only do a small fraction of this, though much easier. But going for toss airplay in the lategame feels easier in WoL. But Mech play works fine without the warhound, as long as you have ghosts for depleting shields. Even on the big maps. The battle hellion really rocks. Well WoL was great unitwise, so maybe HotS turns out good too. Though i liked the design of every WoL unit, with just a few minor tweaks missing to fill holes in the play of WoL. | ||
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FATJESUSONABIKE
184 Posts
On September 09 2012 22:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: This gives me hope: http://i.minus.com/ibtmfIaY1rXUZV.gif a three tech routes ultra-gimmicky endlessly gas-heavy drop play that noone will ever be able to use in pro games gives you hope? then what doesn't? | ||
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Seiniyta
Belgium1815 Posts
On September 10 2012 00:28 FATJESUSONABIKE wrote: a three tech routes ultra-gimmicky endlessly gas-heavy drop play that noone will ever be able to use in pro games gives you hope? then what doesn't? In the late game this can be stupidly powerful and very useful, it makes storm drops much more reliable as unless they pull drones right away all the drones clump up because they go to the only patches that are mining. I can see how players will try to keep at least one mineral patch open for maximum effect. To rush this is stupid but as a late game play, why not? Especially considering the speed of the oracle and speed warp prism. | ||
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