We will be bringing down the beta server today at 2:30 PM PDT in order to perform a few balance changes. We do not expect a lengthy downtime and will report to this thread when the service is live after the maintenance. Below are the changes being implemented:
BALANCE CHANGES
- Warhound Weapon attack delay has increased from 1.3 to 1.7. - Swarm host locust attack damage has decreased from 16 to 14. - Viper Consume can no longer be used on creep tumors. - Oracle Preordain duration has decreased from 2 min to 1 min. - Viper Blinding Cloud now hits everything, but the radius of effect has reduced from 2.5 to 1.5. - Widow mines will no longer damage each other with their splash damage. - The bug affecting the Overlord speed upgrade has been fixed. Upgraded Overlords will now travel at the expected speed of 1.88.
HOTKEY CHANGES
Oracle - Revelation has changed from E to R. - Entomb has changed from R to E.
Mothership Core - Energize has changed from N to E. - Purify has changed from E to F.
Swarm host - Spawn locust has changed from W to C.
Fleet Beacon - Research Gravity Sling has changed from T to G. - Research Bosonic Core has changed from G to A.
Hydralisk Den - Evolve Muscular Augments has changed from C to A.
On September 08 2012 06:13 purakushi wrote: I think that the main problem with warhounds is the haywire, not necessarily the main attack. You can just kite stalkers/sentries with its range.
I disagree, even on non mechanical units it beats everything. It destroys bio army's extremely quickly and efficiently.
On September 08 2012 06:13 purakushi wrote: I think that the main problem with warhounds is the haywire, not necessarily the main attack. You can just kite stalkers/sentries with its range.
I disagree, even on non mechanical units it beats everything. It destroys bio army's extremely quickly and efficiently.
Ah, that's true. I guess it needs both nerfs >_< Well, I would mainly like to see haywire be castable, so it at least takes some micro to use. I doubt Blizzard is going to do that, though. Catering to making the game easier...
Should haywire still completely ignore immortal shields, though? =\
I've seen it used to dismantle mech with the yank ability, and now the blinding cloud can be used on clumped tanks to make them absolutely useless. Also, if ZvZ ever stops being swarmhost wars it'll be great in roach battles.
On September 08 2012 06:18 Hider wrote: Absolutely stupid. Blizzard chooses to "balance" the warhound instead of redesigning it. They have zero clue wtf they are doing.
Not to be rude, but you didn't actually expect them to "redesign" an entire unit in a few days, right? They realized they needed to to something about it ASAP and did a quick balance change. They can always redesign it later if this isn't sufficient.
On September 08 2012 06:13 purakushi wrote: I think that the main problem with warhounds is the haywire, not necessarily the main attack. You can just kite stalkers/sentries with its range.
I disagree, even on non mechanical units it beats everything. It destroys bio army's extremely quickly and efficiently.
Ah, that's true. I guess it needs both nerfs >_< Well, I would mainly like to see haywire be castable, so it at least takes some micro to use. I doubt Blizzard is going to do that, though. Catering to making the game easier...
Should haywire still completely ignore immortal shields, though? =\
That's the point of the unit. Make it so Immortal's don't ass rape Tanks. Battle Hellions is so that Zealots don't ass rape tanks. Now that it's DPS is lowered and the Warhound doesn't counter everything, people might actually make Tanks.
It's a terribly designed unit but they are trying to make Tanks more viable in TvP.
On September 08 2012 06:18 Hider wrote: Absolutely stupid. Blizzard chooses to "balance" the warhound instead of redesigning it. They have zero clue wtf they are doing.
Not to be rude, but you didn't actually expect them to "redesign" an entire unit in a few days, right? They realized they needed to to something about it ASAP and did a quick balance change. They can always redesign it later if this isn't sufficient.
I don't understand why they would decrease preordain from 2 minute to 1 minute. That is the only thing that gives tempests a chance to attack from long range (observers are easy to snipe, since they have to stay there). I guess they really do not want the tempest to work. lol
On September 08 2012 06:13 purakushi wrote: I think that the main problem with warhounds is the haywire, not necessarily the main attack. You can just kite stalkers/sentries with its range.
I disagree, even on non mechanical units it beats everything. It destroys bio army's extremely quickly and efficiently.
Ah, that's true. I guess it needs both nerfs >_< Well, I would mainly like to see haywire be castable, so it at least takes some micro to use. I doubt Blizzard is going to do that, though. Catering to making the game easier...
Should haywire still completely ignore immortal shields, though? =\
That's the point of the unit. Make it so Immortal's don't ass rape Tanks. Battle Hellions is so that Zealots don't ass rape tanks. Now that it's DPS is lowered and the Warhound doesn't counter everything, people might actually make Tanks.
It's a terribly designed unit but they are trying to make Tanks more viable in TvP.
Actually, Blizzard's main goal of the warhound is to break the TvT siege tank scan wars. Of course, having a viable mech option versus Protoss is necessary to balance.
On September 08 2012 06:24 MCDayC wrote: I've seen it used to dismantle mech with the yank ability, and now the blinding cloud can be used on clumped tanks to make them absolutely useless. Also, if ZvZ ever stops being swarmhost wars it'll be great in roach battles.
Just spread out your tanks like in BW. Radius 1.5 isn't all that large if you have good spread.
Honestly, BH/Tank holds fine against Protoss ground. There's no need to make a unit that absolutely decimates Protoss. If they're going to balance inch by inch, be prepared for like 3-4 more patches of Warhound nerfs.
On September 08 2012 06:24 MCDayC wrote: I've seen it used to dismantle mech with the yank ability, and now the blinding cloud can be used on clumped tanks to make them absolutely useless. Also, if ZvZ ever stops being swarmhost wars it'll be great in roach battles.
Just spread out your tanks like in BW. Radius 1.5 isn't all that large if you have good spread.
Yup, I think its a cool change. Against a good player yank will probably be better as it will kill the tank, but it punishes terrans having all the tanks bunched up and just sieging up.
On September 08 2012 06:30 Cloak wrote: Honestly, BH/Tank holds fine against Protoss ground. There's no need to make a unit that absolutely decimates Protoss. If they're going to balance inch by inch, be prepared for like 3-4 more patches of Warhound nerfs.
this! i hope they nerf warhounds so they are pretty much antitankline only. BH + widow mine + tanks + thors will be fine vs toss.
Blizzard can nerf the warhound's damage output as much as they like but it doesn't change the fact the unit is terrible and bad for the game. Despite the almost universal vocal dislike of the unit, I have the disappointing feeling they're not going to do anything to overhaul it.
The blinding cloud semi-buff is nice but the AOE already looked pretty small beforehand. I don't really understand how good the Swarm Host is at the moment since there doesn't seem to be much of a consensus. I'm not really sure how I feel about a damage nerf to positional units, (once again).
On September 08 2012 06:09 purakushi wrote: A nice start to testing balances, I guess, but I wish haywire missiles was not autocastable.
They should leave creep tumours consumable, that's pretty funny.
Blinding cloud will barely cover anything now. I think this will be buffed to 2. o.o
Are they seriously leaving the haywire missiles doing full damage to immortal shields?
You can abuse the fact that autocast is on. Blink one Stalker in range and let it take the whole volley of missiles. It will be overkill. Then, attack in the cooldown. If you just a-move against it, it won't overkill anything at the same time that Immortals wil lose almost all their shields and some stalkers will die before the real battle even begin. If you memorize the cooldown time well, you can even abuse it again blinking a stalker in the middle of warhounds to absord a whole volley again (Haywire attacks the nearest target).
On September 08 2012 06:27 purakushi wrote: I don't understand why they would decrease preordain from 2 minute to 1 minute. That is the only thing that gives tempests a chance to attack from long range (observers are easy to snipe, since they have to stay there). I guess they really do not want the tempest to work. lol
Pre-ordain gave me for a long period of time huge amounts of intel of which units were spawning from the hive for example which is incredible useful to react what the Zerg is producing. I can really see why they nerfed it. I also successful have won games by putting preordain on a factory along other production facilities for the terran so I knew for 2 full minutes what they were building was really handy. I think the nerf is reasonable as I actually thought that spell is, at the moment very underutilized but very powerful.
I don't think that the warhounds are nerfed enough. The main problems are their ridiculous fast moving speed, the cost of 2 supply and the abit to high hitpoints. At least two of these points must be changed.
The cloud thingy affecting everything seems a bit ridiculous. I guess marine/tank will die completely and it's going to be either pure bio or tankless mech.
On September 08 2012 06:40 Aenur wrote: I don't think that the warhounds are nerfed enough. The main problems are their ridiculous fast moving speed, the cost of 2 supply and the abit to high hitpoints. At least two of these points must be changed.
This. It's pretty much the roaches of WoL beta. Except now terran has them. Haywire missiles doing full damage to immortals is incredibly stupid. I understand you needed something to stop zealots and immortals from raping tank lines. But now what does protoss have? Zealots are hard countered. Anything mechnical is hardcountered. We are now forced into air units. There is no ground composition that will beat warhound/battle hellion in it's current state.
On September 08 2012 06:42 Zane wrote: The cloud thingy affecting everything seems a bit ridiculous. I guess marine/tank will die completely and it's going to be either pure bio or tankless mech.
1.5 radius is extremely small. It'll take 5 or 6 clouds to cover even a portion of what you're trying to hit.
On September 08 2012 06:09 purakushi wrote: A nice start to testing balances, I guess, but I wish haywire missiles was not autocastable.
They should leave creep tumours consumable, that's pretty funny.
Blinding cloud will barely cover anything now. I think this will be buffed to 2. o.o
Are they seriously leaving the haywire missiles doing full damage to immortal shields?
You can abuse the fact that autocast is on. Blink one Stalker in range and let it take the whole volley of missiles. It will be overkill. Then, attack in the cooldown. If you just a-move against it, it won't overkill anything at the same time that Immortals wil lose almost all their shields and some stalkers will die before the real battle even begin. If you memorize the cooldown time well, you can even abuse it again blinking a stalker in the middle of warhounds to absord a whole volley again (Haywire attacks the nearest target).
But that's really hard to do it.
Haha, I like that idea, actually. However, the main problem I have with haywire is that you can just run around and kite (with haywire only) lesser ranged mech units and basically take no damage, because haywire is 10 range. Nearly all of the early game TvPs I have seen of HotS, T can just send their first warhound to attack and inevitably do way too much damage for one unit (and the P knows its coming). It would be fixed with a nerf to range or at least made a tad more difficult to do by making it not autocasted. However, the first solution is not what Blizzard is looking for, since warhounds were designed to break siege tank lines, so it basically is required to keep the longer haywire range.
On September 08 2012 06:40 Aenur wrote: I don't think that the warhounds are nerfed enough. The main problems are their ridiculous fast moving speed, the cost of 2 supply and the abit to high hitpoints. At least two of these points must be changed.
I would not mind leaving the other problems with the warhound you mentioned, but I think Blizzard would be smart to make it cost 3 supply. This will encourage less massing of these units, leading to more variety in unit composition.
I'm all for making haywire missiles not autocastable, though.
On September 08 2012 06:13 purakushi wrote: I think that the main problem with warhounds is the haywire, not necessarily the main attack. You can just kite stalkers/sentries with its range.
I disagree, even on non mechanical units it beats everything. It destroys bio army's extremely quickly and efficiently.
Ah, that's true. I guess it needs both nerfs >_< Well, I would mainly like to see haywire be castable, so it at least takes some micro to use. I doubt Blizzard is going to do that, though. Catering to making the game easier...
Should haywire still completely ignore immortal shields, though? =\
That's the point of the unit. Make it so Immortal's don't ass rape Tanks. Battle Hellions is so that Zealots don't ass rape tanks. Now that it's DPS is lowered and the Warhound doesn't counter everything, people might actually make Tanks.
It's a terribly designed unit but they are trying to make Tanks more viable in TvP.
If by more viable you mean completely irrelevant...
Why would you ever build tanks when the Warhound is so good?
I wonder if they will fix the SCV's build icon location on the command card grid. Right now, it's one grid square below where it was in WoL, while Drones and Probes have their command card locations unchanged.
This is really annoying as a player who uses grid hotkeys. I'm used to spamming the 'q' key to build workers for all races. While this is still the case for Protoss and Zerg in the HotS beta, the SCV hotkey is now 'a' which throws me off quite a bit.
On September 08 2012 06:13 purakushi wrote: I think that the main problem with warhounds is the haywire, not necessarily the main attack. You can just kite stalkers/sentries with its range.
I disagree, even on non mechanical units it beats everything. It destroys bio army's extremely quickly and efficiently.
Ah, that's true. I guess it needs both nerfs >_< Well, I would mainly like to see haywire be castable, so it at least takes some micro to use. I doubt Blizzard is going to do that, though. Catering to making the game easier...
Should haywire still completely ignore immortal shields, though? =\
That's the point of the unit. Make it so Immortal's don't ass rape Tanks. Battle Hellions is so that Zealots don't ass rape tanks. Now that it's DPS is lowered and the Warhound doesn't counter everything, people might actually make Tanks.
It's a terribly designed unit but they are trying to make Tanks more viable in TvP.
If by more viable you mean completely irrelevant...
Why would you ever build tanks when the Warhound is so good?
But the other side of that question is why would you build tanks if warhound is not good enough?
I am a Prophet! I knew they will lower the damage of the Locusts from 16 to 14! HA! And I really like the Viper change, I also knew that the Blinding Cloud will be buffed.
Warhound change seems good, they won't have as much dps anymore, but don't know if it is enough. We will see, there will be a tons of more patches.
On September 08 2012 06:09 purakushi wrote: A nice start to testing balances, I guess, but I wish haywire missiles was not autocastable.
But aren't there some situations were autocast is bad? Let's say you fight an toss army of stalkers and some immortals. If you could target the haywire missles yourself, you could a-move into the stalker, firing the regular shots against them, and manually target the immortals with the missles (instead of wasting regular shots on hardend shields).
It still has 13.6 DPS with normal attack, and 18.6 DPS with missile. It has 220 HP. It's 2 supply and cost 25/25 more than stalker. While stalker has 6.7 DPS, 160 HP, and 2 supply. And roach has 8 DPS, 145 HP, and 2 supply. And it kites like crazy with their normal attack range of 7 and missile range of 10. It's fucking longer than colossus.
If they keep Locust at 14 dmg, then they should decrease upgrades from +2 -> +1 to match Stalkers. Although this would make them worse in the late game
On September 08 2012 07:08 larse wrote: Warhound is still OP after this patch.
It still has 13.6 DPS with normal attack, and 18.6 DPS with missile. It has 220 HP. It's 2 supply and cost 25/25 more than stalker. While stalker has 6.7 DPS, 160 HP, and 2 supply. And roach has 8 DPS, 145 HP, and 2 supply. And it kites like crazy with their normal attack range of 7 and missile range of 10. It's fucking longer than colossus.
On September 08 2012 07:10 SarcasmMonster wrote: If they keep Locust at 14 dmg, then they should decrease upgrades from +2 -> +1 to match Stalkers. Although this would make them worse in the late game
more like stalkers should be the ones getting an upgrade increase to +2
On September 08 2012 07:08 larse wrote: Warhound is still OP after this patch.
It still has 13.6 DPS with normal attack, and 18.6 DPS with missile. It has 220 HP. It's 2 supply and cost 25/25 more than stalker. While stalker has 6.7 DPS, 160 HP, and 2 supply. And roach has 8 DPS, 145 HP, and 2 supply. And it kites like crazy with their normal attack range of 7 and missile range of 10. It's fucking longer than colossus.
Which is fine, no need for large sweeping nerfs, do it incremental until you get a sweet spot.
Warhound just needs a complete redesign, nobody happy with them atm. I think most other units will need to be seen more before blizz decides what to do with them, except the toss units. Its pretty obvious that toss got shafted in hots, we could seriously use some type of ground aoe unit besides the archon or colossus that can take a few hits and comes from the gateway. Also bring carrier + the old tempest shield back!
On September 08 2012 06:40 Aenur wrote: I don't think that the warhounds are nerfed enough. The main problems are their ridiculous fast moving speed, the cost of 2 supply and the abit to high hitpoints. At least two of these points must be changed.
I would not mind leaving the other problems with the warhound you mentioned, but I think Blizzard would be smart to make it cost 3 supply. This will encourage less massing of these units, leading to more variety in unit composition.
I'm all for making haywire missiles not autocastable, though.
I would actually switch the supply on tanks and warhounds. With 2 supply tanks, it would be more incentive to make them a main part of the army, and the opposite for 3 supply warhounds. It would reward good micro, but if you wanted to just a-move, you could still do it, just need more supply depots
On September 08 2012 07:10 SarcasmMonster wrote: If they keep Locust at 14 dmg, then they should decrease upgrades from +2 -> +1 to match Stalkers. Although this would make them worse in the late game
Don't worry, they're pretty insane in the late-game as it is .
On September 08 2012 07:10 SarcasmMonster wrote: If they keep Locust at 14 dmg, then they should decrease upgrades from +2 -> +1 to match Stalkers. Although this would make them worse in the late game
Don't worry, they're pretty insane in the late-game as it is .
I'm glad that blinding cloud affects everything now, but I wish the radius stayed the same. Maybe the duration could be nerfed or something, instead. Vipers still seem less useful than infestors. Seems like leaving the radius large and nerfing fungal instead would be better.
Warhound nerf is expected, but I was kinda hoping for a movement speed reduction on it. I think it would be good at 2.25.
Also still hoping for a widow mine splash damage increase. (Also seems like it could use a +1 range upgrade.)
On September 08 2012 07:08 larse wrote: Warhound is still OP after this patch.
It still has 13.6 DPS with normal attack, and 18.6 DPS with missile. It has 220 HP. It's 2 supply and cost 25/25 more than stalker. While stalker has 6.7 DPS, 160 HP, and 2 supply. And roach has 8 DPS, 145 HP, and 2 supply. And it kites like crazy with their normal attack range of 7 and missile range of 10. It's fucking longer than colossus.
you lose all your credibility when you compare it to roaches and stalkers. Compare it to a maurauder.
On September 08 2012 07:30 Gfire wrote: I'm glad that blinding cloud affects everything now, but I wish the radius stayed the same. Maybe the duration could be nerfed or something, instead. Vipers still seem less useful than infestors. Seems like leaving the radius large and nerfing fungal instead would be better.
Warhound nerf is expected, but I was kinda hoping for a movement speed reduction on it. I think it would be good at 2.25.
Also still hoping for a widow mine splash damage increase. (Also seems like it could use a +1 range upgrade.)
I would LOVE to see damage increased like 2 fold on the mine but add a tiny tiny delay. Not the 10 second snooze button they had before, but like a 2 second gosu split or die.
So many angry warhound haters. How can you not love this wonderful bundle of contradictions? It needs the hp and speed to break tank lines and it needs dps and range to fight immortals. And yes it is necessary to make mech work vs protoss. It'll be so much fun watching blizzard squirm trying to make it work somehow.
On September 08 2012 07:37 pmp10 wrote: So many angry warhound haters. How can you not love this wonderful bundle of contradictions? It needs the hp and speed to break tank lines and it needs dps and range to fight immortals. And yes it is necessary to make mech work vs protoss. It'll be so much fun watching blizzard squirm trying to make it work somehow.
Why on earth does the warhound need speed? They're close to outranging siege tanks with the haywire missiles anyway. Under no circumstances should they be faster than a stalker.
On September 08 2012 06:09 purakushi wrote: A nice start to testing balances, I guess, but I wish haywire missiles was not autocastable.
But aren't there some situations were autocast is bad? Let's say you fight an toss army of stalkers and some immortals. If you could target the haywire missles yourself, you could a-move into the stalker, firing the regular shots against them, and manually target the immortals with the missles (instead of wasting regular shots on hardend shields).
That's true, but at least it gives some sort of micro to the warhound.
On September 08 2012 06:40 Aenur wrote: I don't think that the warhounds are nerfed enough. The main problems are their ridiculous fast moving speed, the cost of 2 supply and the abit to high hitpoints. At least two of these points must be changed.
I would not mind leaving the other problems with the warhound you mentioned, but I think Blizzard would be smart to make it cost 3 supply. This will encourage less massing of these units, leading to more variety in unit composition.
I'm all for making haywire missiles not autocastable, though.
I would actually switch the supply on tanks and warhounds. With 2 supply tanks, it would be more incentive to make them a main part of the army, and the opposite for 3 supply warhounds. It would reward good micro, but if you wanted to just a-move, you could still do it, just need more supply depots
I kind of like this idea of switching the tank and warhound's supply costs (well, at least prepatched version) from a gameplay point of view, but it just does not make sense or feel right that a *tank* would be less than warhound. Meh, warhound just messes things up and takes away skill from the game.
On September 08 2012 07:37 pmp10 wrote: So many angry warhound haters. How can you not love this wonderful bundle of contradictions? It needs the hp and speed to break tank lines and it needs dps and range to fight immortals. And yes it is necessary to make mech work vs protoss. It'll be so much fun watching blizzard squirm trying to make it work somehow.
Why on earth does the warhound need speed? They're close to outranging siege tanks with the haywire missiles anyway. Under no circumstances should they be faster than a stalker.
Because the missiles alone don't have enough range and damage to trade with siege tank fire. And because attacking defensive positions through choke points that can now be full of mines will require a lot of mobility. Surely we wouldn't want TvTs to go back to siege-tank stand-offs.
On September 08 2012 07:54 DemigodcelpH wrote: The Tempest isn't bad. It has 22 range for christ sake.
Protoss players just aren't used to having a non a-move/deathball unit.
Exactly. They don't have that high dps because they shouldn't have high dps with that kind of range. After loosing to mass Tempest, QuanticIllusion asked WhiteRA "Tempest>Carriers?", and WhiteRa replied "Something like this."
Don't know, they really don't seem that bad, even though I think that Blizzard will tweak them.
I think it's time for blizzard to look at marine tank medivac vs zerg in HOTS. It's much weaker now, and imo terrans shouldn't be forced into mech every game.
Does anyone else feel like there is absolutely nothing exciting about the new units in HOTS? I find myself getting really bored of watching HOTS streams even though the beta has only been out for a few days.
On September 08 2012 08:10 TSL-Lore wrote: Does anyone else feel like there is absolutely nothing exciting about the new units in HOTS? I find myself getting really bored of watching HOTS streams even though the beta has only been out for a few days.
I agree. I am a huge defender of sc2, and I always hope for sc2 to be the best esports title, but I am kinda losing faith in it. Playing HOTS feels really really boring to me. Everything feels 1a, and I am not really amazed by the pros
On September 08 2012 08:10 TSL-Lore wrote: Does anyone else feel like there is absolutely nothing exciting about the new units in HOTS? I find myself getting really bored of watching HOTS streams even though the beta has only been out for a few days.
I agree. I am a huge defender of sc2, and I always hope for sc2 to be the best esports title, but I am kinda losing faith in it. Playing HOTS feels really really boring to me. Everything feels 1a, and I am not really amazed by the pros
It's the second day of the beta, talk about jumping to conclusions. o_O
On September 08 2012 08:10 TSL-Lore wrote: Does anyone else feel like there is absolutely nothing exciting about the new units in HOTS? I find myself getting really bored of watching HOTS streams even though the beta has only been out for a few days.
I have the opposite impression (this from a zerg side though).
I feel the Swarmhost has brought a lot more excitement to zvp/zvt imo. We all know current WoL play is zerg has to go hive if they want to win. With the swarmhost being added zerg can be doing aggressive actions all game and not have to turtle - hive tech - get big deathball.
Dunno warhound is boring, I like the battlehellion/widow mine and new toss units just suck.
Watching the swarmhost only makes me wish I had a hots beta account more and more T_T.
On September 08 2012 08:10 TSL-Lore wrote: Does anyone else feel like there is absolutely nothing exciting about the new units in HOTS? I find myself getting really bored of watching HOTS streams even though the beta has only been out for a few days.
I have the opposite impression (this from a zerg side though).
I feel the Swarmhost has brought a lot more excitement to zvp/zvt imo. We all know current WoL play is zerg has to go hive if they want to win. With the swarmhost being added zerg can be doing aggressive actions all game and not have to turtle - hive tech - get big deathball.
Dunno warhound is boring, I like the battlehellion/widow mine and new toss units just suck.
Watching the swarmhost only makes me wish I had a hots beta account more and more T_T.
I'm zerg as well, and I've been watching pro zerg streams. The Swarm Host, imo, is the most boring of all. It results in these long drawn out pushes with expendable slow moving units. There's no explosiveness like the Lurker from SCBW. Everything seems to promote turtle-based play. It's like the "turtle to hive - get big deathball" thing you described except its even slower now.
I dont know, I just wish they'd bring back something like the Lurker. Maybe make the Swarm Host more like it.
On September 08 2012 08:10 TSL-Lore wrote: Does anyone else feel like there is absolutely nothing exciting about the new units in HOTS? I find myself getting really bored of watching HOTS streams even though the beta has only been out for a few days.
The Warhound is the only unit I've feel that way about so far. The battle hellion, the widow mine, and all of the protoss and zerg units excite me.
On September 08 2012 08:10 TSL-Lore wrote: Does anyone else feel like there is absolutely nothing exciting about the new units in HOTS? I find myself getting really bored of watching HOTS streams even though the beta has only been out for a few days.
I have the opposite impression (this from a zerg side though).
I feel the Swarmhost has brought a lot more excitement to zvp/zvt imo. We all know current WoL play is zerg has to go hive if they want to win. With the swarmhost being added zerg can be doing aggressive actions all game and not have to turtle - hive tech - get big deathball.
Dunno warhound is boring, I like the battlehellion/widow mine and new toss units just suck.
Watching the swarmhost only makes me wish I had a hots beta account more and more T_T.
I'm zerg as well, and I've been watching pro zerg streams. The Swarm Host, imo, is the most boring of all. It results in these long drawn out pushes with expendable slow moving units. There's no explosiveness like the Lurker from SCBW. Everything seems to promote turtle-based play. It's like the "turtle to hive - get big deathball" thing you described except its even slower now.
I dont know, I just wish they'd bring back something like the Lurker. Maybe make the Swarm Host more like it.
Completely disagree. The best part of the beta BY FAR is the swarm host. It makes more positional wars and ZvZ and ZvT are like BW TvT now. It's like watching chess. Just wait until we start seeing muta ---> swarm host+hydra/roach or the other way around. The swarm host is slight too powerful (which is why it's getting a nerf). Currently people are learning how powerful units are and what is good against what. Yesterday it seemed like TvT was just going to be Warhound vs Warhound. Today, I've seen Terran pros RAPING warhounds with bio or bio+tank. Protoss is the only shitty part of Hots. Still boring as fuck rofl
On September 08 2012 08:28 Zergrusher wrote: Now they just need to make fungul a slowing spell
Increase ultralisk base damage to 20
Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in the past.
Nerf roach speed to Make roaches move at 2.95.
Burrow charge should be auto cast and make ultras move at a speed of 3 when doing it
For protoss
the tempest needs a buff.
For terran
make haywire missles a upgrade.
I really Hope I get a beta key, because the Hype and the gameplay for HOTS is getting me dizzy with excitement. !
Very objective, LOL. If I would balance the same way as you, I would give my tanks +20 damage, undo the hellion nerf, make marinesplit autosplit and make marines move double as fast. Seriously dude, you are not even in the beta and you decided that the tempest needs a buff?
I agree with others that the problem of warhound isn't its op-ness, but rather its design (both the form and the function). I tried them on and they look like bunch of walking match boxes. And they basically do the exact same thing marauders do as of now, only difference being that they come out of factories instead of rax.
On September 08 2012 08:10 TSL-Lore wrote: Does anyone else feel like there is absolutely nothing exciting about the new units in HOTS? I find myself getting really bored of watching HOTS streams even though the beta has only been out for a few days.
I have the opposite impression (this from a zerg side though).
I feel the Swarmhost has brought a lot more excitement to zvp/zvt imo. We all know current WoL play is zerg has to go hive if they want to win. With the swarmhost being added zerg can be doing aggressive actions all game and not have to turtle - hive tech - get big deathball.
Dunno warhound is boring, I like the battlehellion/widow mine and new toss units just suck.
Watching the swarmhost only makes me wish I had a hots beta account more and more T_T.
Yeah. I discovered that watching the beta was really fun, but for a completely different reason than I expected.
I usually like to watch Protoss, but I just can't stand it now. Players make the new oracle and do boring shift-click micro, and then play with normal toss units. Or they make tempests and I watch them flail as they try to make the long range units worthwhile. Meanwhile the rest of their army is again the same old same old. It was so boring!
Then I move over to a terran stream, and in between the warhound OP stomps I see unbelievably dynamic games with every terran unit under the sun. Well almost, it was really fun to watch and no one was even using widow mines yet. I get curious and flip on a zerg stream. New units and old units galore mixing and matching and making the gameplay fresh. TvZ is going to go from being the best matchup, to the bestest matchup. The other races not only got units that can be a core part of the game, they also got their underused units redesigned (reaper, battlecruiser, raven, hydra). They even changed something on the infestor!
And what happened to toss? Any current units updated? No. We LOST A UNIT! The carrier, which was used more than the reaper, bc, hydra, and maybe even the raven, gets taken out of the game... I thought this was an expansion... O wait, I forgot that they added on two stargate units to replace the one we lost. Except they are both just gimmicky things that cost 150/200 and 300/300. And they take away the only interesting thing about the oracle (cloak). But wait! There's more! We are giving you a single unit that guards your base with a cannon that costs energy. But we nerfed it's cool energize ability so that it's never useful. And if you ever don't get attacked by cool new units and can actually save up energy, you can recall too! O wait, you could already do that?
I am terribly disappointed that Blizzard would have failed this hard with toss. When you compare the races, it is painfully obvious which one is getting the short end of the stick in this expansion. If things don't get added, there is no way I'll be playing toss. Why play WoL when the other races are playing HotS?
Got to say I LOVE THESE CHANGES! I cant imagine a much better patch right now, lets see how it works out!
I knew they needed to decrease the swarm host DPS, but I really wish they increased the hp/armor or something at the same time (and decreased the dps some more).
The oracle ability is dumb as well. I wonder if Blizzard thought toss players need more macro practice or something. Basically you just block the mineral patches like clockwork. You just have to remember to do it over and over again. It's kind of like larva inject.
On September 08 2012 06:18 Hider wrote: Absolutely stupid. Blizzard chooses to "balance" the warhound instead of redesigning it. They have zero clue wtf they are doing.
I'm pretty certain at this point I'm not going to hold my breath about the Warhound. Time to accept the modern rts style and how the warhound plays the role of Starcraft.
They should just go out with a message that the will bring down the beta to redesign 50% of the new units and abilites from scratch. The game is heading in the wrong direction.
On September 08 2012 08:08 monkybone wrote: I actually feel like the siege tank needs a damage increase in light of the new changes, in particular vs armored units, and perhaps a slightly wider distribution of aoe.
I think bliz is so hesitant on buffing the siege tank for tvp cause it will totally mess up tvz. Tanks are really good vs roaches and taking down infestors / blings. With the warhound, battle hellion, buffed tank and the thor as an option mech would be unstoppable in tvz. And that's ignoring the fact that you would probably end up mixing some of t's air arsenal into your mech composition.
On September 08 2012 08:10 TSL-Lore wrote: Does anyone else feel like there is absolutely nothing exciting about the new units in HOTS? I find myself getting really bored of watching HOTS streams even though the beta has only been out for a few days.
I have the opposite impression (this from a zerg side though).
I feel the Swarmhost has brought a lot more excitement to zvp/zvt imo. We all know current WoL play is zerg has to go hive if they want to win. With the swarmhost being added zerg can be doing aggressive actions all game and not have to turtle - hive tech - get big deathball.
Dunno warhound is boring, I like the battlehellion/widow mine and new toss units just suck.
Watching the swarmhost only makes me wish I had a hots beta account more and more T_T.
I'm zerg as well, and I've been watching pro zerg streams. The Swarm Host, imo, is the most boring of all. It results in these long drawn out pushes with expendable slow moving units. There's no explosiveness like the Lurker from SCBW. Everything seems to promote turtle-based play. It's like the "turtle to hive - get big deathball" thing you described except its even slower now.
I dont know, I just wish they'd bring back something like the Lurker. Maybe make the Swarm Host more like it.
Lurkers were generally used to hold out till hive in bw. Yes if you saw an opportunity you would jump in and rape everything with your baller spines / burrow ability, but if your opponent was any little bit competent / playing standard the lurkers would be used to delay the opponent's push till hive (looking at zvt here especially).
From playing about 20 hours of the beta so far as protoss... My thoughts were that the warhound pushes were extremely strong. The swarm host pushes were extremely strong as well. I think the changes they made for them will make them much more manageable.
For the oracle, I feel like I can really only use the new units in PvP at high level play. Any time I tried a transition into the new units pre-4 base in the other matchups, I got clobbered because of it. The tempests tickle damage needs to be addressed. It only shines in PVP during the typical war of the worlds mexican stand off point. Basically immortal + tempest > 2 collosus now in PVP since they are the same gas cost. Other than that, I couldn't figure out how to get the tempest to work against zerg unless I had already put my opponent in a wheelchair and the same goes for terran. Overall good changes, excited to see how things go moving forward.
good changes, SH needed the nerf and we'll see how effective the nerf to warhounds is. Love that blinding cloud will be strong against everything! but we'll just have to see how that goes.
they made hotkey changes to the exact same hotkeys as mine 0_0
On September 08 2012 08:10 TSL-Lore wrote: Does anyone else feel like there is absolutely nothing exciting about the new units in HOTS? I find myself getting really bored of watching HOTS streams even though the beta has only been out for a few days.
I have the opposite impression (this from a zerg side though).
I feel the Swarmhost has brought a lot more excitement to zvp/zvt imo. We all know current WoL play is zerg has to go hive if they want to win. With the swarmhost being added zerg can be doing aggressive actions all game and not have to turtle - hive tech - get big deathball.
Dunno warhound is boring, I like the battlehellion/widow mine and new toss units just suck.
Watching the swarmhost only makes me wish I had a hots beta account more and more T_T.
Zerg already had a plethora of viable options to win before hive. It's not that Zerg had to go hive, but that they get it for free because creep/mobility gives them map control by default.
On September 08 2012 08:10 TSL-Lore wrote: Does anyone else feel like there is absolutely nothing exciting about the new units in HOTS? I find myself getting really bored of watching HOTS streams even though the beta has only been out for a few days.
I have the opposite impression (this from a zerg side though).
I feel the Swarmhost has brought a lot more excitement to zvp/zvt imo. We all know current WoL play is zerg has to go hive if they want to win. With the swarmhost being added zerg can be doing aggressive actions all game and not have to turtle - hive tech - get big deathball.
Dunno warhound is boring, I like the battlehellion/widow mine and new toss units just suck.
Watching the swarmhost only makes me wish I had a hots beta account more and more T_T.
Zerg already had a plethora of viable options to win before hive. It's not that Zerg had to go hive, but that they get it for free because creep/mobility gives them map control by default.
They really don't have that many options to win before hive. Zvp they could do roach aggression but if toss defends properly they rarely lose the game unless they mess up.
zvt is the same if zerg does a mid game push it HAS to do a ton of damage. If terran defends appropriately then zerg loses unless again terran does a huge mistake.
Now with the swarmhost zerg can do aggression before hive and not be "all in".
On September 08 2012 08:28 Zergrusher wrote: Now they just need to make fungul a slowing spell
Increase ultralisk base damage to 20
Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in the past.
Nerf roach speed to Make roaches move at 2.95.
Burrow charge should be auto cast and make ultras move at a speed of 3 when doing it
For protoss
the tempest needs a buff.
For terran
make haywire missles a upgrade.
I really Hope I get a beta key, because the Hype and the gameplay for HOTS is getting me dizzy with excitement. !
Very objective, LOL. If I would balance the same way as you, I would give my tanks +20 damage, undo the hellion nerf, make marinesplit autosplit and make marines move double as fast. Seriously dude, you are not even in the beta and you decided that the tempest needs a buff?
On September 08 2012 08:10 TSL-Lore wrote: Does anyone else feel like there is absolutely nothing exciting about the new units in HOTS? I find myself getting really bored of watching HOTS streams even though the beta has only been out for a few days.
I have the opposite impression (this from a zerg side though).
I feel the Swarmhost has brought a lot more excitement to zvp/zvt imo. We all know current WoL play is zerg has to go hive if they want to win. With the swarmhost being added zerg can be doing aggressive actions all game and not have to turtle - hive tech - get big deathball.
Dunno warhound is boring, I like the battlehellion/widow mine and new toss units just suck.
Watching the swarmhost only makes me wish I had a hots beta account more and more T_T.
Zerg already had a plethora of viable options to win before hive. It's not that Zerg had to go hive, but that they get it for free because creep/mobility gives them map control by default.
They really don't have that many options to win before hive. Zvp they could do roach aggression but if toss defends properly they rarely lose the game unless they mess up.
zvt is the same if zerg does a mid game push it HAS to do a ton of damage. If terran defends appropriately then zerg loses unless again terran does a huge mistake.
Now with the swarmhost zerg can do aggression before hive and not be "all in".
Zerg doesn't have to all-in to win or do aggression before hive. This is a flawed mindset popularized by Zergs who think making units before full saturation is "damage" or "all-in".
Zerg has just as many, if not more, options to win in the mid-game compared to the other races. Win upfront with roach/bane, ling/bane, mass muta (Protoss and unprepared Ts), muta/ling/bling, mass seedlings, circumvent defense with drop play, banes, nydus, et cetera.
On September 08 2012 08:10 TSL-Lore wrote: Does anyone else feel like there is absolutely nothing exciting about the new units in HOTS? I find myself getting really bored of watching HOTS streams even though the beta has only been out for a few days.
I have the opposite impression (this from a zerg side though).
I feel the Swarmhost has brought a lot more excitement to zvp/zvt imo. We all know current WoL play is zerg has to go hive if they want to win. With the swarmhost being added zerg can be doing aggressive actions all game and not have to turtle - hive tech - get big deathball.
Dunno warhound is boring, I like the battlehellion/widow mine and new toss units just suck.
Watching the swarmhost only makes me wish I had a hots beta account more and more T_T.
Yeah. I discovered that watching the beta was really fun, but for a completely different reason than I expected.
I usually like to watch Protoss, but I just can't stand it now. Players make the new oracle and do boring shift-click micro, and then play with normal toss units. Or they make tempests and I watch them flail as they try to make the long range units worthwhile. Meanwhile the rest of their army is again the same old same old. It was so boring!
Then I move over to a terran stream, and in between the warhound OP stomps I see unbelievably dynamic games with every terran unit under the sun. Well almost, it was really fun to watch and no one was even using widow mines yet. I get curious and flip on a zerg stream. New units and old units galore mixing and matching and making the gameplay fresh. TvZ is going to go from being the best matchup, to the bestest matchup. The other races not only got units that can be a core part of the game, they also got their underused units redesigned (reaper, battlecruiser, raven, hydra). They even changed something on the infestor!
And what happened to toss? Any current units updated? No. We LOST A UNIT! The carrier, which was used more than the reaper, bc, hydra, and maybe even the raven, gets taken out of the game... I thought this was an expansion... O wait, I forgot that they added on two stargate units to replace the one we lost. Except they are both just gimmicky things that cost 150/200 and 300/300. And they take away the only interesting thing about the oracle (cloak). But wait! There's more! We are giving you a single unit that guards your base with a cannon that costs energy. But we nerfed it's cool energize ability so that it's never useful. And if you ever don't get attacked by cool new units and can actually save up energy, you can recall too! O wait, you could already do that?
I am terribly disappointed that Blizzard would have failed this hard with toss. When you compare the races, it is painfully obvious which one is getting the short end of the stick in this expansion. If things don't get added, there is no way I'll be playing toss. Why play WoL when the other races are playing HotS?
Yes! Exactly sums up what I think, toss have been given no love this beta, either for new or existing units. I recently heard about an upgrade I'd never heard about; Bosonic Core or something, and got excited cause I thought it could have been a cool upgrade to an existing unit, like how Terran and Zerg got all their under used units looked at and adjusted. But NOPE just energy upgrade for mothership core lol, I'll definitely be building a fleet beacon to get that!
I've been watching a lot of streams and oracle entomb shift click is already boring, and I've never seen somebody go Tempest and win unless they had already pretty much won at that stage.
You should post this on the bnet forums, Blizzard needs to have a read of this.
Edit: I forgot they nerfed high ground warp ins, so they haven't forgotten about protoss after all!
Maybe I haven't seen enough streams but I thought the blinding cloud looked like it covers way to small of an area because the enemies can simply walk out of it? And they reduce its radius?
On September 08 2012 06:13 purakushi wrote: I think that the main problem with warhounds is the haywire, not necessarily the main attack. You can just kite stalkers/sentries with its range.
I disagree, even on non mechanical units it beats everything. It destroys bio army's extremely quickly and efficiently.
I like how people went from complaining about warhound's a skilless 1A unit to complaining that the warhound's too good when it's micro'd. Be careful what you wish for I guess.
On September 08 2012 08:10 TSL-Lore wrote: Does anyone else feel like there is absolutely nothing exciting about the new units in HOTS? I find myself getting really bored of watching HOTS streams even though the beta has only been out for a few days.
I have the opposite impression (this from a zerg side though).
I feel the Swarmhost has brought a lot more excitement to zvp/zvt imo. We all know current WoL play is zerg has to go hive if they want to win. With the swarmhost being added zerg can be doing aggressive actions all game and not have to turtle - hive tech - get big deathball.
Dunno warhound is boring, I like the battlehellion/widow mine and new toss units just suck.
Watching the swarmhost only makes me wish I had a hots beta account more and more T_T.
Zerg already had a plethora of viable options to win before hive. It's not that Zerg had to go hive, but that they get it for free because creep/mobility gives them map control by default.
They really don't have that many options to win before hive. Zvp they could do roach aggression but if toss defends properly they rarely lose the game unless they mess up.
zvt is the same if zerg does a mid game push it HAS to do a ton of damage. If terran defends appropriately then zerg loses unless again terran does a huge mistake.
Now with the swarmhost zerg can do aggression before hive and not be "all in".
Zerg doesn't have to all-in to win or do aggression before hive. This is a flawed mindset popularized by Zergs who think making units before full saturation is "damage" or "all-in".
Zerg has just as many, if not more, options to win in the mid-game compared to the other races. Win upfront with roach/bane, ling/bane, mass muta (Protoss and unprepared Ts), muta/ling/bling, mass seedlings, circumvent defense with drop play, banes, nydus, et cetera.
You're exaggerating the number of options we have. I only see in ZvT mid game either Ling/Bling/Muta or mass sling/infestor against non-mech. And either Roach/muta or roach/infestor with or without dropplay against mech.Roach/bane is good for all in.
On September 08 2012 06:13 purakushi wrote: I think that the main problem with warhounds is the haywire, not necessarily the main attack. You can just kite stalkers/sentries with its range.
I disagree, even on non mechanical units it beats everything. It destroys bio army's extremely quickly and efficiently.
I like how people went from complaining about warhound's a skilless 1A unit to complaining that the warhound's too good when it's micro'd. Be careful what you wish for I guess.
On September 08 2012 08:10 TSL-Lore wrote: Does anyone else feel like there is absolutely nothing exciting about the new units in HOTS? I find myself getting really bored of watching HOTS streams even though the beta has only been out for a few days.
I have the opposite impression (this from a zerg side though).
I feel the Swarmhost has brought a lot more excitement to zvp/zvt imo. We all know current WoL play is zerg has to go hive if they want to win. With the swarmhost being added zerg can be doing aggressive actions all game and not have to turtle - hive tech - get big deathball.
Dunno warhound is boring, I like the battlehellion/widow mine and new toss units just suck.
Watching the swarmhost only makes me wish I had a hots beta account more and more T_T.
Yeah. I discovered that watching the beta was really fun, but for a completely different reason than I expected.
I usually like to watch Protoss, but I just can't stand it now. Players make the new oracle and do boring shift-click micro, and then play with normal toss units. Or they make tempests and I watch them flail as they try to make the long range units worthwhile. Meanwhile the rest of their army is again the same old same old. It was so boring!
Then I move over to a terran stream, and in between the warhound OP stomps I see unbelievably dynamic games with every terran unit under the sun. Well almost, it was really fun to watch and no one was even using widow mines yet. I get curious and flip on a zerg stream. New units and old units galore mixing and matching and making the gameplay fresh. TvZ is going to go from being the best matchup, to the bestest matchup. The other races not only got units that can be a core part of the game, they also got their underused units redesigned (reaper, battlecruiser, raven, hydra). They even changed something on the infestor!
And what happened to toss? Any current units updated? No. We LOST A UNIT! The carrier, which was used more than the reaper, bc, hydra, and maybe even the raven, gets taken out of the game... I thought this was an expansion... O wait, I forgot that they added on two stargate units to replace the one we lost. Except they are both just gimmicky things that cost 150/200 and 300/300. And they take away the only interesting thing about the oracle (cloak). But wait! There's more! We are giving you a single unit that guards your base with a cannon that costs energy. But we nerfed it's cool energize ability so that it's never useful. And if you ever don't get attacked by cool new units and can actually save up energy, you can recall too! O wait, you could already do that?
I am terribly disappointed that Blizzard would have failed this hard with toss. When you compare the races, it is painfully obvious which one is getting the short end of the stick in this expansion. If things don't get added, there is no way I'll be playing toss. Why play WoL when the other races are playing HotS?
In TVP terran is supposed to play an immobile version of Mech. The fact that there is a mech version of the maurauder completely destroys the matchup for both races. If immobile mech were an viable option we would see toss every single tool they had to abuse the immobility of the mech. And most likely tempest would be more usefull as well to break siege line. Recall would be extremelye used given mech and would make for interesting gameplay.
I believe oracle can be interesting if you have 3-4 of them and they constantly are used to harass mineral fields. Because then the economic consequences will acutally be severe. However as pro players currently play its kind of boring, indeed. But I wan't to wait and see.
Im not sure why you think bc and reapers were redesigned. Rather rebalanced. They still have the same role. What change has there been to the raven?
On September 08 2012 10:24 Hider wrote: Im not sure why you think bc and reapers were redesigned. Rather rebalanced. They still have the same role. What change has there been to the raven?
Increased movement speed from 2.25 to 2.5 as well as reduced Seeker Missile cost from 125 energy to 100.
Warhound is not needed to break tvt siege lines, tvt was a perfectlly fine matchup annyway.
Annyway:Now that i found out that the missles has 9 range its easy for me to see whats wrong with it. 9 range is way to much. Not sure why they thought it needed 9 range, to counter siege tanks or to counter collosus.. It does make it way overpowerd against annything else though.
Maybe problem is also that they build to fast, so that terran can get to manny of them on only 1-2 factorys in a to short of a time, think missle range is the main isue though.
There, are quite a lot of reasons why I'm switching to Terrans again after playing Toss for the majority of BW. The moment I saw how HotS is, I knew right away how bad Toss got it this expansion.
All other races got something to contribute to the ground army either early or mid game. Toss got completely fucked over because Blizz refuses to add anything to the race. Everything is so... half assed as it seems I don't even know what to make of it.
My beloved Toss... just don't feel like Toss anymore. Until they add something worth using, I'm gonna go to Terran.
I've watched a lot of HotS streams and Protoss players are learning to just not build HotS units if they want to win. Both (is that it, two new units?) new units are pretty rubbish right now.
On September 08 2012 07:37 pmp10 wrote: So many angry warhound haters. How can you not love this wonderful bundle of contradictions? It needs the hp and speed to break tank lines and it needs dps and range to fight immortals. And yes it is necessary to make mech work vs protoss. It'll be so much fun watching blizzard squirm trying to make it work somehow.
Why on earth does the warhound need speed? They're close to outranging siege tanks with the haywire missiles anyway. Under no circumstances should they be faster than a stalker.
Because the missiles alone don't have enough range and damage to trade with siege tank fire. And because attacking defensive positions through choke points that can now be full of mines will require a lot of mobility. Surely we wouldn't want TvTs to go back to siege-tank stand-offs.
if you are afraid of that, increase range on nuke
boom - i solved the problem. not please get rid off this shitty unit everyone hates
On September 08 2012 11:46 Seraphic wrote: There, are quite a lot of reasons why I'm switching to Terrans again after playing Toss for the majority of BW. The moment I saw how HotS is, I knew right away how bad Toss got it this expansion.
All other races got something to contribute to the ground army either early or mid game. Toss got completely fucked over because Blizz refuses to add anything to the race. Everything is so... half assed as it seems I don't even know what to make of it.
My beloved Toss... just don't feel like Toss anymore. Until they add something worth using, I'm gonna go to Terran.
I feel the same way but gotta be true to my protoss roots man.
I think. For now. Until I play HotS.
I am afraid that blizzard knows they fucked up and dont want to admit it -_-
I like the change to disruption swarm, though it will be a hard thing to balance. Many things in the game might seem ridiculously powerful, but I think too many people take that as instantly meaning that it will be imbalanced. In BW different races had ridiculously powerful things (dark swarm, d-web, plague, tanks, recall, mines, nydus, hold lurker...) and yet the game was balanced, so I think people should be a bit more reserved about instantly jumping on the imbalance train.
I think it could be good for gameplay if tanks were stronger and if blinding cloud was stronger. Mech would be viable in TvP (and it would actually be mech instead of mechanical infantry), and you would get very interesting positional play with the great power of tanks and blinding cloud in TvZ (somewhat akin to dark swarm/tank play). Also I wouldn't mind if the nerfed fungal somehow, its role will be less integral in HotS if they keep blinding cloud and abduct somewhat powerful, thus making it easier to balance.
EVERYBODY in the community who's above gold is telling blizzard to redesign the warhound, and i mean EVERYBODY. are they really not going to change it?
On September 08 2012 16:02 FATJESUSONABIKE wrote: EVERYBODY in the community who's above gold is telling blizzard to redesign the warhound, and i mean EVERYBODY. are they really not going to change it?
Sometimes, what people need is not what they want.
And I like the Warhound. I prefer it instead of a spellcaster or something like that. Almost ll units of terran are so stressful. You have to split your marines, you have to kite, you have to position your tanks, control properly your ghosts, and if you don't do that your shit will just die to a lot of lazers, storms, acid or broodlings.
I like that, it's cool to micro, take a good position, etc. But, sometimes, when i'm raging, i just want to have a unit that makes my opponent deal with what i'm doing and suffer instead of the reverse. It's frustating to see all my tanks (that usually i spend so much time/effort macroing) becomes useless after just some Broodlords come into play.
Browder said on some interview that Terrans already have so much shit to micro, Blizz didn't want to give one more shit to Terran players worry. When People start to incorporate more Tank/Widow Mine play into Warhound compositions this will become clear.
Cool to see a warhound nerf but I think they either need to up the cost or change the supply to 3. Way to easily massible right now. Making the haywire not autocast would be cool maybe
The wh still op and we all know, what is interesting (or maybe, depressing) is the way they nerf , bit by bit, just to be sure it will stay a "all-around unit" ... i feel they are afraid to cut corners, so they will nerf it very slowly .. Well.. a new monster is born
On September 08 2012 08:10 TSL-Lore wrote: Does anyone else feel like there is absolutely nothing exciting about the new units in HOTS? I find myself getting really bored of watching HOTS streams even though the beta has only been out for a few days.
I have the opposite impression (this from a zerg side though).
I feel the Swarmhost has brought a lot more excitement to zvp/zvt imo. We all know current WoL play is zerg has to go hive if they want to win. With the swarmhost being added zerg can be doing aggressive actions all game and not have to turtle - hive tech - get big deathball.
Dunno warhound is boring, I like the battlehellion/widow mine and new toss units just suck.
Watching the swarmhost only makes me wish I had a hots beta account more and more T_T.
Zerg already had a plethora of viable options to win before hive. It's not that Zerg had to go hive, but that they get it for free because creep/mobility gives them map control by default.
They really don't have that many options to win before hive. Zvp they could do roach aggression but if toss defends properly they rarely lose the game unless they mess up.
zvt is the same if zerg does a mid game push it HAS to do a ton of damage. If terran defends appropriately then zerg loses unless again terran does a huge mistake.
Now with the swarmhost zerg can do aggression before hive and not be "all in".
Zerg doesn't have to all-in to win or do aggression before hive. This is a flawed mindset popularized by Zergs who think making units before full saturation is "damage" or "all-in".
Zerg has just as many, if not more, options to win in the mid-game compared to the other races. Win upfront with roach/bane, ling/bane, mass muta (Protoss and unprepared Ts), muta/ling/bling, mass seedlings, circumvent defense with drop play, banes, nydus, et cetera.
You're exaggerating the number of options we have. I only see in ZvT mid game either Ling/Bling/Muta or mass sling/infestor against non-mech. And either Roach/muta or roach/infestor with or without dropplay against mech.Roach/bane is good for all in.
He isn't exaggerating, he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.
On September 08 2012 17:55 Spidinko wrote: Is the patch live?
It is. Btw, I was watching BabyKnights stream, and came to conclusion that WH nerf actually nerfed their dps by a lot. Don't know if it is enough, I would put them to be at least 3 population, since WH being the same population as Zealot or Roach is ridiculous, but we will see.
On September 08 2012 16:02 FATJESUSONABIKE wrote: EVERYBODY in the community who's above gold is telling blizzard to redesign the warhound, and i mean EVERYBODY. are they really not going to change it?
Ugliest unit Blizzard have designed in their history. The Command and Conquer dev team acquisitions is starting to show through.
Has anyone tried siege tanks protected by widow mines and battle hellions? seems like it would provide really interesting games and then the opponent might try air units and terran gets viking/battlecruiser/raven.
But no the above is redundant as just massing warhounds is better.
On September 08 2012 06:13 purakushi wrote: I think that the main problem with warhounds is the haywire, not necessarily the main attack. You can just kite stalkers/sentries with its range.
I disagree, even on non mechanical units it beats everything. It destroys bio army's extremely quickly and efficiently.
This is simply not true. Do you have the beta? I've been testing it myself and it actually loses to everything the toss has but stalkers (pre-patch) per cost.
- Viper Blinding Cloud now hits everything, but the radius of effect has reduced from 2.5 to 1.5.
Isn't mech kinda spread out anyways? Usually? And even if you hit a ball of Hellions perfectly, how many do you get? Like 6? /edit: Forgot about Protoss... probably really okay against Toss...
I think they could have easily left this at 2.5. Or at least 2, so that it works nicely with Fungal. To be honest, I just hate that Blizzard slowly is making every spell 1.5 radius <.<
Warhounds are not as powerful as people think. Zerg knows how to handle them now like any other unit, and Protoss will figure it out pretty soon. If Protoss doesn't...then obviously they will tweak the haywire missile.
On September 08 2012 19:02 avilo wrote: Warhounds are not as powerful as people think. Zerg knows how to handle them now like any other unit, and Protoss will figure it out pretty soon. If Protoss doesn't...then obviously they will tweak the haywire missile.
Void ray openings vs mech are really good btw.
i already posted in your topic but will here again
what about protoss players trying immortals in warp prisms and dodging auto attack and rockets from warhounds? I mean it would probably help a lot in early to mid game, as for mid late game mass colossus should do well?
all changes as expected, can't belief they really want to stick with the speed of the warhound though. But i don't mind giving the other races some of their you cannot retreat medicine though for some while longer. Well first round of changes were easy to guess, next round will be harder.
PS: i am above gold and i like the current warhound design and ... pilot <3. Okay if they would make a MadCat design and put a girl with a neko hat in i would be even more of a fan of it. But damn the warhound pilot is so cool.
On September 08 2012 16:02 FATJESUSONABIKE wrote: EVERYBODY in the community who's above gold is telling blizzard to redesign the warhound, and i mean EVERYBODY. are they really not going to change it?
Ugliest unit Blizzard have designed in their history. The Command and Conquer dev team acquisitions is starting to show through.
excactly my thoughts, even the warhound fire looks like something from CC: generals
On September 08 2012 16:02 FATJESUSONABIKE wrote: EVERYBODY in the community who's above gold is telling blizzard to redesign the warhound, and i mean EVERYBODY. are they really not going to change it?
Look, it's been three or four days since the beta began. Even if they started re-designing it the second it was first suggested on the forum, they wouldn't even have time to change the art. Give them a few weeks before saying they "won't" change it.
On September 08 2012 06:42 Zane wrote: The cloud thingy affecting everything seems a bit ridiculous. I guess marine/tank will die completely and it's going to be either pure bio or tankless mech.
Really? I got the impression they're trying to break up deathballs. Range 1.5 practically screams "spread your fucking units."
if a sieged tank is affected by the cloud, its range gets reduced to melee. Does that mean it can now shoot itself? Or does it not shoot at all because of minimum range?
(new meme incoming: "i was a tank, but then i took my own arrow to the knee" :p )
I wonder how strategies will evolve around new blinding cloud. I guess we will see more vipers.
I hope they will add better maps for Hots. With these we wont see true super late games very often and it may stay quite imbalanced until game is released.
actually, i think the Viper change is really good, as they destroyed pure bio with the cloud, and they were also very well against few key units (marine/tank with few tanks, protoss Deathball with few colossi), but they really could not deliver against pure mech, where you would basically need to abduct every single terran unit (and abduct costs too much energy for mass use).
On September 08 2012 16:02 FATJESUSONABIKE wrote: EVERYBODY in the community who's above gold is telling blizzard to redesign the warhound, and i mean EVERYBODY. are they really not going to change it?
Look, it's been three or four days since the beta began. Even if they started re-designing it the second it was first suggested on the forum, they wouldn't even have time to change the art. Give them a few weeks before saying they "won't" change it.
It's been suggested since practically the first battle report.
if blizzard redesigns the warhound, they better redesign the colossus, the archon, the chargelot and the roach as well, because these double standards have existed long enough ^.<
On September 08 2012 21:25 Naphal wrote: if blizzard redesigns the warhound, they better redesign the colossus, the archon, the chargelot and the roach as well, because these double standards have existed long enough ^.<
I'm gonna drop a guess here but I'd say almost every single person whining about the warhound isn't just whining about the damage / attack style of the unit. We're just as flabberghasted at how awful and ugly it looks as we are at it's stupid autocasting missles.
You could completely re-write the units damage / stats and we'd still think it's a shitty looking unit. The autocasting missles are just icing on the cake. Blizzard literally interpreted "mech" completely and utterly incorrectly. It's embarassing.
Umm, okay, I get that Blizzard don't like siege tanks, but seriously?
I mean, in WoL, siege tanks weren't even that scary, as a zerg you could ling surround, flank, roaches, as a Protoss, immortals, you name it. Tanks did very mediocre DPS with a slight splash (not exactly a large splash either).
However, with this expansion, every single unit is designed to counter the siege tank: - Warhound (anti-mechanical, ridiculous HP, very fast) - Battle Hellion (very beefy, takes the shots so that the higher damage units can snipe the tanks) - Tempest (obvious) - Viper (abduct and now blinding cloud) - Swarm host (free units to take shots and attack tanks)
I really don't understand what was the point of it all, if you don't want Terran to build tanks in any match-up then simply remove the unit and put some units in with better thought-out skills.
On September 09 2012 00:01 SiroKO wrote: -2 dmg dmg to locus host ? This wouldn't balance anything.
No no no, the locusts themselves do -2 less damage.
Also after the warhound nerf I've seen a lot of Terrans completely getting owned with just warhounds as their army with battle hellions. Seems to have worked quite well! More tanks folks <3
On September 09 2012 00:01 SiroKO wrote: -2 dmg dmg to locus host ? This wouldn't balance anything.
No no no, the locusts themselves do -2 less damage.
Also after the warhound nerf I've seen a lot of Terrans completely getting owned with just warhounds as their army with battle hellions. Seems to have worked quite well! More tanks folks <3
Tanks currently get owned by mothership. This beta has a long way to go.
On September 09 2012 00:01 SiroKO wrote: -2 dmg dmg to locus host ? This wouldn't balance anything.
No no no, the locusts themselves do -2 less damage.
Also after the warhound nerf I've seen a lot of Terrans completely getting owned with just warhounds as their army with battle hellions. Seems to have worked quite well! More tanks folks <3
Tanks currently get owned by mothership. This beta has a long way to go.
Call me dumb, but what's your point about a mothership beating a tank? Tanks can't shoot up, or am I missing something?
Blinding Cloud in it's current state seems pretty strong. It works on Siege Tanks in Siege Mode. Even Dark Swarm was susceptitle to splash damage. For example, in Brood War late game versus Dark Swarm, Protoss had to rely on Archons, Reavers, and High Templar to kill units under Dark Swarm. Terran relied on Irradiate, Siege Mode, and Spider Mines.
Also, Blinding Cloud combined with chain Fungal means you can't micro out of it. Seems nuts. Hopefully we'll see some new tactics along with some updates to old ones to deal with this. :D
On September 09 2012 00:01 SiroKO wrote: -2 dmg dmg to locus host ? This wouldn't balance anything.
No no no, the locusts themselves do -2 less damage.
Also after the warhound nerf I've seen a lot of Terrans completely getting owned with just warhounds as their army with battle hellions. Seems to have worked quite well! More tanks folks <3
Tanks currently get owned by mothership. This beta has a long way to go.
Call me dumb, but what's your point about a mothership beating a tank? Tanks can't shoot up, or am I missing something?
I meant tank-heavy terran compositions in TvP. Which is likely why they don't get used.
Also, Blinding Cloud combined with chain Fungal means you can't micro out of it. Seems nuts. Hopefully we'll see some new tactics along with some updates to old ones to deal with this. :D
On September 08 2012 19:36 Garmer wrote: the speed of the warhound is crucial, or we have another immobile mech army, they should work in the other department, the speed is perfect
I signed in just for this.
Are you serious? Do you not understand the fundamentals of mech play?
*******MECH PLAY IS SUPPOSED TO BE IMMOBILE.********
The issue with 'Mech' in WoL was not its immobility, that is SHOULD be the problem with mech. The issue was, there was no way to deal with charge-lots effectively (hence battle hellion), and the lack of Anti-Air from factory tech.
So the battle hellion, and a unit that has a moderate ground attack and a very good aerial attack were the key additions needed.
So they fixed part of the issue with the battle hellion. The problem with the warhound is that it does not address any issues with mech. The unit makes mech a mobile composition, which is not what we want, does not provide a aerial attack for terrans to deal with voidray, tempest, phoenix, muta, ect, which is what terran needs.
Leave the battle hellion alone. Make tanks siege mode attack a bit stronger. (or something of this sort, don't know how it would effect other match ups) Nerf Warhound ground attack substantially, and add a effective aerial attack.
Ideally, the warhound should not be absolutely decimating stalkers, it should be matching up fairly to them. While also having the capability to pew pew some air units.
Man, that is nowhere near enough of a war hound nerf. They litterally kill everything on the greound atm, including immortals and roaches, the so called anti mech units. And protoss needs buffs on their ground forces, becuase relying on heavy air styles means you die so hard to heavy viking or corrupter builds. I mayu be biased, but toss looks really weak atm.
After watching a couple of HotS streams I thought the Viper's Blinding Cloud ability had actually been removed post Alpha. Don't think I've seen it used once yet, so hopefully this new buff will see to that.
On September 09 2012 03:48 Smigi wrote: Nerf Warhound ground attack substantially, and add a effective aerial attack.
And name it Goliath.
Exchange the model too, as Warhounds look hideous especially when they move.
Sadly, very true.
But the fact of the matter is, the role the goliath played, is a big chunk of what mech was missing in WoL. Other then having something to deal with those meddling charge-lots of course.
It can functionally be very similar to the goliath, but can still have a different model and name for the people that want something new..
On September 08 2012 19:11 FeyFey wrote: all changes as expected, can't belief they really want to stick with the speed of the warhound though. But i don't mind giving the other races some of their you cannot retreat medicine though for some while longer. Well first round of changes were easy to guess, next round will be harder.
PS: i am above gold and i like the current warhound design and ... pilot <3. Okay if they would make a MadCat design and put a girl with a neko hat in i would be even more of a fan of it. But damn the warhound pilot is so cool.
What Protoss unit CAN actually retreat? Blink stalkers and pheonix? I really don't know whats with all these low blows in a expansion discussion when they aren't even remotely thought out and/or funny. Specially when the race with concussive says that >.<
disappointed with the tempest... that its still there hmph! Also : give us some goliathtype unit like everyone is mentioning, this warhound is such a pain...
1 of the races got to have the slower unit, its been terran for a long time with the slower units ( 2.25 bio and mech ) and now the situation is turned around and they have a unit thats a little bit faster (0.125 above stalker?) Donk think protoss should complain about the speed. Most other complains i support though, the unit looks realy bad and unimaginative and its just to strong to simply mass it seems. Somehow i dont like terran beeing op, i feel us terran players are meant to struggle and fight an up-hill battle in the evil universe
So Toss is basically a dead race in the beta and their solution is to nerf it further.
The truth is that Toss always gets the raw deal, and I'm sick and tired of it. For over a year Terran players could get to grandmaster without even bothering to upgrade to ghosts. Now in WoL Zerg have to do nothing but follow a recipe.
And now they basically kill Toss in the expansion and don't even make a token gesture toward rectifying the weak and tedious-as-fuck-to-control units.
I won't be buying the game unless and until they fix this broken bullshit.
They need to get rid of the stupid automine stuff on the start. That's just crying for change.
Also, is there an option to change the red health bars of the enemy back into the old colors? I'm not in the BETA but I think I saw an option when I was watching Stephano's stream.
On September 09 2012 04:33 ClownPatrol wrote: So Toss is basically a dead race in the beta and their solution is to nerf it further.
The truth is that Toss always gets the raw deal, and I'm sick and tired of it. For over a year Terran players could get to grandmaster without even bothering to upgrade to ghosts. Now in WoL Zerg have to do nothing but follow a recipe.
And now they basically kill Toss in the expansion and don't even make a token gesture toward rectifying the weak and tedious-as-fuck-to-control units.
I won't be buying the game unless and until they fix this broken bullshit.
You must be joking...
The amount of non-Korean Terran players in master-GM compared to the other two races is laughable.
Obviously all this is subject to further change prior to release so I think we should all take what's in the patch a little...impartially.
The Blinding Cloud change is big. It was always a problem that no one is going bio now that mech is much easier, and a spell that affects only bio would essentially be limited to ZvZ. So it's cool to see it affect everything, it'll be a much bigger part of the game now. However it already had a small radius. Now it's teeny 0_0
The warhound should just go. It's bad. I genuinely wonder what the fuck they were thinking. It's so...nothing. It's just a ranged ground to ground unit. It's unmicroable. It's about as interesting as a worker. And on top, and most importantly, of that it solves a problem that doesn't exist. What is it's PURPOSE? What does it add to the game? It makes going mech easier because it's an easy, boring unit. This can't be the best they can come up with.
EDIT: basically everyone should be lobbying Blizz as hard as possible to get the fuck rid of this piece of shit unit. I'm sorry but there it is; it's awful. Some people think it's game breakingly strong but I don't believe it will be by release, but it won't be 'balanced' because you can't balance a unit that doesn't fit in the game. You can force it in and make sure it doesn't kill other shit too fast.
On September 08 2012 19:36 Garmer wrote: the speed of the warhound is crucial, or we have another immobile mech army, they should work in the other department, the speed is perfect
I signed in just for this.
Are you serious? Do you not understand the fundamentals of mech play?
*******MECH PLAY IS SUPPOSED TO BE IMMOBILE.********
The issue with 'Mech' in WoL was not its immobility, that is SHOULD be the problem with mech. The issue was, there was no way to deal with charge-lots effectively (hence battle hellion), and the lack of Anti-Air from factory tech.
So the battle hellion, and a unit that has a moderate ground attack and a very good aerial attack were the key additions needed.
So they fixed part of the issue with the battle hellion. The problem with the warhound is that it does not address any issues with mech. The unit makes mech a mobile composition, which is not what we want, does not provide a aerial attack for terrans to deal with voidray, tempest, phoenix, muta, ect, which is what terran needs.
Leave the battle hellion alone. Make tanks siege mode attack a bit stronger. (or something of this sort, don't know how it would effect other match ups) Nerf Warhound ground attack substantially, and add a effective aerial attack.
Ideally, the warhound should not be absolutely decimating stalkers, it should be matching up fairly to them. While also having the capability to pew pew some air units.
i'm with you, mech should be about positional play i know, i come from BW too ,but the goliath was fast, and the problem with the warhound is not the speed, but the other stats we don't need another thor anyway if it was for me i would remove it instantly
On September 08 2012 19:36 Garmer wrote: the speed of the warhound is crucial, or we have another immobile mech army, they should work in the other department, the speed is perfect
I signed in just for this.
Are you serious? Do you not understand the fundamentals of mech play?
*******MECH PLAY IS SUPPOSED TO BE IMMOBILE.********
The issue with 'Mech' in WoL was not its immobility, that is SHOULD be the problem with mech. The issue was, there was no way to deal with charge-lots effectively (hence battle hellion), and the lack of Anti-Air from factory tech.
So the battle hellion, and a unit that has a moderate ground attack and a very good aerial attack were the key additions needed.
So they fixed part of the issue with the battle hellion. The problem with the warhound is that it does not address any issues with mech. The unit makes mech a mobile composition, which is not what we want, does not provide a aerial attack for terrans to deal with voidray, tempest, phoenix, muta, ect, which is what terran needs.
Leave the battle hellion alone. Make tanks siege mode attack a bit stronger. (or something of this sort, don't know how it would effect other match ups) Nerf Warhound ground attack substantially, and add a effective aerial attack.
Ideally, the warhound should not be absolutely decimating stalkers, it should be matching up fairly to them. While also having the capability to pew pew some air units.
double post but mech isnt immobile, if you know how to use them correctly
they CAN be the fastest and most annoying mofos outhere
I like the tinkering with blinding cloud, but I feel that it lacks excitement because of the long range. I think it would bring more excitement if the range was reduced so the viper has to be more exposed, I mean 9 range is a lot for a spell that basically makes tanks useless if they are sieged up.
That way you can have the spell be either used in retreat or in have the viper be more at risk for trying to use it offensively. To have it work more positionally rather than the feel that it can just be cast from everywhere like the abduct spell.
I agree with the warhound and the swarm host change though. While I love the swarm host's concept the locusts were just a little bit too beefy for a free unit. Warhound should really just be removed, see absolutely no room for excitement in that unit.
On September 08 2012 19:36 Garmer wrote: the speed of the warhound is crucial, or we have another immobile mech army, they should work in the other department, the speed is perfect
I signed in just for this.
Are you serious? Do you not understand the fundamentals of mech play?
*******MECH PLAY IS SUPPOSED TO BE IMMOBILE.********
The issue with 'Mech' in WoL was not its immobility, that is SHOULD be the problem with mech. The issue was, there was no way to deal with charge-lots effectively (hence battle hellion), and the lack of Anti-Air from factory tech.
So the battle hellion, and a unit that has a moderate ground attack and a very good aerial attack were the key additions needed.
So they fixed part of the issue with the battle hellion. The problem with the warhound is that it does not address any issues with mech. The unit makes mech a mobile composition, which is not what we want, does not provide a aerial attack for terrans to deal with voidray, tempest, phoenix, muta, ect, which is what terran needs.
Leave the battle hellion alone. Make tanks siege mode attack a bit stronger. (or something of this sort, don't know how it would effect other match ups) Nerf Warhound ground attack substantially, and add a effective aerial attack.
Ideally, the warhound should not be absolutely decimating stalkers, it should be matching up fairly to them. While also having the capability to pew pew some air units.
double post but mech isnt immobile, if you know how to use them correctly
they CAN be the fastest and most annoying mofos outhere
learn2play bw kthxbye
Fantasy vultures are the scariest harassing unit in the game O_o
On September 08 2012 19:36 Garmer wrote: the speed of the warhound is crucial, or we have another immobile mech army, they should work in the other department, the speed is perfect
I signed in just for this.
Are you serious? Do you not understand the fundamentals of mech play?
*******MECH PLAY IS SUPPOSED TO BE IMMOBILE.********
The issue with 'Mech' in WoL was not its immobility, that is SHOULD be the problem with mech. The issue was, there was no way to deal with charge-lots effectively (hence battle hellion), and the lack of Anti-Air from factory tech.
So the battle hellion, and a unit that has a moderate ground attack and a very good aerial attack were the key additions needed.
So they fixed part of the issue with the battle hellion. The problem with the warhound is that it does not address any issues with mech. The unit makes mech a mobile composition, which is not what we want, does not provide a aerial attack for terrans to deal with voidray, tempest, phoenix, muta, ect, which is what terran needs.
Leave the battle hellion alone. Make tanks siege mode attack a bit stronger. (or something of this sort, don't know how it would effect other match ups) Nerf Warhound ground attack substantially, and add a effective aerial attack.
Ideally, the warhound should not be absolutely decimating stalkers, it should be matching up fairly to them. While also having the capability to pew pew some air units.
double post but mech isnt immobile, if you know how to use them correctly
they CAN be the fastest and most annoying mofos outhere
learn2play bw kthxbye
Fantasy vultures are the scariest harassing unit in the game O_o
+1 :D
i wasnt going to talk about bw players and bw units.. but thank you for adding this
even in sc 2 if you use hellions correctly...like LAST vs NESTEA in OSL round 16...you will see mech isnt immobile
On September 08 2012 19:36 Garmer wrote: the speed of the warhound is crucial, or we have another immobile mech army, they should work in the other department, the speed is perfect
I signed in just for this.
Are you serious? Do you not understand the fundamentals of mech play?
*******MECH PLAY IS SUPPOSED TO BE IMMOBILE.********
The issue with 'Mech' in WoL was not its immobility, that is SHOULD be the problem with mech. The issue was, there was no way to deal with charge-lots effectively (hence battle hellion), and the lack of Anti-Air from factory tech.
So the battle hellion, and a unit that has a moderate ground attack and a very good aerial attack were the key additions needed.
So they fixed part of the issue with the battle hellion. The problem with the warhound is that it does not address any issues with mech. The unit makes mech a mobile composition, which is not what we want, does not provide a aerial attack for terrans to deal with voidray, tempest, phoenix, muta, ect, which is what terran needs.
Leave the battle hellion alone. Make tanks siege mode attack a bit stronger. (or something of this sort, don't know how it would effect other match ups) Nerf Warhound ground attack substantially, and add a effective aerial attack.
Ideally, the warhound should not be absolutely decimating stalkers, it should be matching up fairly to them. While also having the capability to pew pew some air units.
double post but mech isnt immobile, if you know how to use them correctly
they CAN be the fastest and most annoying mofos outhere
learn2play bw kthxbye
Fantasy vultures are the scariest harassing unit in the game O_o
+1 :D
i wasnt going to talk about bw players and bw units.. but thank you for adding this
even in sc 2 if you use hellions correctly...like LAST vs NESTEA in OSL round 16...you will see mech isnt immobile
Well again when most people are talking about mech they are talking about the composition to take out a base for example. Hellion/vultures obviously aren't immobile but the heavy hitters that crush ground units like Thor/tanks shouldn't be fast and they aren't.
On September 08 2012 19:36 Garmer wrote: the speed of the warhound is crucial, or we have another immobile mech army, they should work in the other department, the speed is perfect
I signed in just for this.
Are you serious? Do you not understand the fundamentals of mech play?
*******MECH PLAY IS SUPPOSED TO BE IMMOBILE.********
The issue with 'Mech' in WoL was not its immobility, that is SHOULD be the problem with mech. The issue was, there was no way to deal with charge-lots effectively (hence battle hellion), and the lack of Anti-Air from factory tech.
So the battle hellion, and a unit that has a moderate ground attack and a very good aerial attack were the key additions needed.
So they fixed part of the issue with the battle hellion. The problem with the warhound is that it does not address any issues with mech. The unit makes mech a mobile composition, which is not what we want, does not provide a aerial attack for terrans to deal with voidray, tempest, phoenix, muta, ect, which is what terran needs.
Leave the battle hellion alone. Make tanks siege mode attack a bit stronger. (or something of this sort, don't know how it would effect other match ups) Nerf Warhound ground attack substantially, and add a effective aerial attack.
Ideally, the warhound should not be absolutely decimating stalkers, it should be matching up fairly to them. While also having the capability to pew pew some air units.
double post but mech isnt immobile, if you know how to use them correctly
they CAN be the fastest and most annoying mofos outhere
learn2play bw kthxbye
Fantasy vultures are the scariest harassing unit in the game O_o
+1 :D
i wasnt going to talk about bw players and bw units.. but thank you for adding this
even in sc 2 if you use hellions correctly...like LAST vs NESTEA in OSL round 16...you will see mech isnt immobile
Well again when most people are talking about mech they are talking about the composition to take out a base for example. Hellion/vultures obviously aren't immobile but the heavy hitters that crush ground units like Thor/tanks shouldn't be fast and they aren't.
Thors and Tanks can be immobile yes yes sure why not
but that composition isnt THAT immobile either. learn2turle, get 200 push ...win...omg terran op
EDIT: considering no one has used medivacs + mechs..idk it is immobile yet..we got alot of bw pros moving on to sc 2.. we will see this composition soon.. and this isNt immobile at all
If you want mobile mech, it needs to be weak. Mech usually means strong and bulky, so it runs counter to the theme of mech in the first place. Something so big looks ridiculous when it goes fast. Bio- small, cheap, numerous, mobile, swarm. Mech- big, few, powerful, expensive, immobile.
I still feel that people are putting too much of a label on mech and saying that mech's core must be tanks and it must be slow and positional. Sorry, but I don't remember reading in the rule book that mech was necessarily supposed to be this way, it just happened to be this way.
If you ask me, I think the warhound should get 2 more nerfs to help it be more balanced, maybe 3.
My first opinion, it should be changed from 2 supply to 3 supply, this is an absolute must, it's just too strong regardless to be only 2 supply and it shadows the marauder.
Second, it should be light, not armored, this way, it would still hold an advantage over tanks and immortals, however, it would fall faster to marines, helions, pheonix, reapers, and so on and so forth. This could actually solve a lot of problems.
Last, I think it should have it's health reduced from 220 to around 150-170, this way it won't have an enormous advantage in health and shouldn't be seriously hard to deal with over all.
Granted these are just changes proposed by a layman, I think they would serve to keep the Warhound at it's original purpose of breaking tank lines and being viable in TvP, but wouldn't drastically over power an opponent. Thoughts?
On September 09 2012 06:53 Cloak wrote: If you want mobile mech, it needs to be weak. Mech usually means strong and bulky, so it runs counter to the theme of mech in the first place. Something so big looks ridiculous when it goes fast. Bio- small, cheap, numerous, mobile, swarm. Mech- big, few, powerful, expensive, immobile.
Exactly, tanks should deal a LOT more damage than they currently do, at the moment they are awful in all match-ups.
Likewise the warhound should be a lot slower, be more expensive and cost more supply.
Battle hellions are nice, and I don't think they should be touched for the moment, I don't see much imbalance with them.
Widow mine direct damage is high, so perhaps it can be used to snipe key units, but the problem is that those units are constantly being babysitted by detectors and meat shields.
Ravens are a lot better now, and we actually see them in match-ups more than before.
For Protoss, mothership core needs slower movement speed and more health and cannon damage.
Oracle needs higher vision range or higher HP, it's way too easy to snipe at the moment, alternatively give it a temporary cloak with a high energy cost (so that it can either scout or entomb, but not both).
Tempest needs a small splash against air units (maybe reduce range vs air to 10 or so?) but at the moment it gets picked off far too easily by air units.
On September 09 2012 07:15 FortMonty wrote: I still feel that people are putting too much of a label on mech and saying that mech's core must be tanks and it must be slow and positional. Sorry, but I don't remember reading in the rule book that mech was necessarily supposed to be this way, it just happened to be this way.
If you ask me, I think the warhound should get 2 more nerfs to help it be more balanced, maybe 3.
My first opinion, it should be changed from 2 supply to 3 supply, this is an absolute must, it's just too strong regardless to be only 2 supply and it shadows the marauder.
Second, it should be light, not armored, this way, it would still hold an advantage over tanks and immortals, however, it would fall faster to marines, helions, pheonix, reapers, and so on and so forth. This could actually solve a lot of problems.
Last, I think it should have it's health reduced from 220 to around 150-170, this way it won't have an enormous advantage in health and shouldn't be seriously hard to deal with over all.
Granted these are just changes proposed by a layman, I think they would serve to keep the Warhound at it's original purpose of breaking tank lines and being viable in TvP, but wouldn't drastically over power an opponent. Thoughts?
Well, it's not just an arbitrary designation. It's differentiating mech from bio, otherwise the strategic choices are meaningless and contribute to no gameplay diversity. If you make a game where Speed, Range, and Strength all trade off with eachother, you ruin balance by making something have everything. Hellions are mech, and they're fast, but they're weak, because they have to be. Mech could just as easily be the numerous yet weak variety, while bio the few but strong, but you don't want both sides to be the same.
Edit: I agree with your balance suggestions. Very reasonable, and gives reason to build Tanks.
On September 09 2012 07:15 FortMonty wrote: I still feel that people are putting too much of a label on mech and saying that mech's core must be tanks and it must be slow and positional. Sorry, but I don't remember reading in the rule book that mech was necessarily supposed to be this way, it just happened to be this way.
If you ask me, I think the warhound should get 2 more nerfs to help it be more balanced, maybe 3.
My first opinion, it should be changed from 2 supply to 3 supply, this is an absolute must, it's just too strong regardless to be only 2 supply and it shadows the marauder.
Second, it should be light, not armored, this way, it would still hold an advantage over tanks and immortals, however, it would fall faster to marines, helions, pheonix, reapers, and so on and so forth. This could actually solve a lot of problems.
Last, I think it should have it's health reduced from 220 to around 150-170, this way it won't have an enormous advantage in health and shouldn't be seriously hard to deal with over all.
Granted these are just changes proposed by a layman, I think they would serve to keep the Warhound at it's original purpose of breaking tank lines and being viable in TvP, but wouldn't drastically over power an opponent. Thoughts?
The armour idea is interesting, although the battle hellion is still light armour for tanking shots from siege lines. Also the warhound just looks like it has a lot of armour, it wouldn't seem right for it to be light armoured.
I main balance concern is the speed, it's ridiculously fast, and add to that the damage, it's just a bigger and better marauder (doesn't even need to stim).
HP and supply nerfs are a given, damage as well I feel.
The core unit to mech is and always has been the tank, this unit should have been implemented with the sole purpose of PROTECTING the siege tanks, not making them worthless.
Siege tank damage should be buffed, then you can either do a deathball style play as Terran that isn't too fragile whilst still being able to go bio play and pick apart your opponent with flanks and harass.
On September 09 2012 07:15 FortMonty wrote: I still feel that people are putting too much of a label on mech and saying that mech's core must be tanks and it must be slow and positional. Sorry, but I don't remember reading in the rule book that mech was necessarily supposed to be this way, it just happened to be this way.
If you ask me, I think the warhound should get 2 more nerfs to help it be more balanced, maybe 3.
My first opinion, it should be changed from 2 supply to 3 supply, this is an absolute must, it's just too strong regardless to be only 2 supply and it shadows the marauder.
Second, it should be light, not armored, this way, it would still hold an advantage over tanks and immortals, however, it would fall faster to marines, helions, pheonix, reapers, and so on and so forth. This could actually solve a lot of problems.
Last, I think it should have it's health reduced from 220 to around 150-170, this way it won't have an enormous advantage in health and shouldn't be seriously hard to deal with over all.
Granted these are just changes proposed by a layman, I think they would serve to keep the Warhound at it's original purpose of breaking tank lines and being viable in TvP, but wouldn't drastically over power an opponent. Thoughts?
Well, it's not just an arbitrary designation. It's differentiating mech from bio, otherwise the strategic choices are meaningless and contribute to no gameplay diversity. If you make a game where Speed, Range, and Strength all trade off with eachother, you ruin balance by making something have everything. Hellions are mech, and they're fast, but they're weak, because they have to be. Mech could just as easily be the numerous yet weak variety, while bio the few but strong, but you don't want both sides to be the same.
Yes, but the problem is people dislike the warhound because it doesn't follow the suit of say Siege Tanks or Thors because it doesn't serve the same basic function. Barring out that it is simply OP at the present moment, I would say it can be categorized with the Helions, banshee's and such mobile mech units. The problem is that people place the Tank as the core unit for mech, I personally play relatively tankless when I go mech, that's just how I like to play it, now that Blizzard has added a unit that strays off from that position play (Which mind you only exists because of the tank) people are saying it's poor design choice when in reality it's the tank that differs from every other mech unit.
Helions are mobile and good for harass, Thors are essentially an A move unit, Banshee's are good added DPS while also being decent harass, and Viking rule the air, really there's nothing stopping this army from being an A move army, EXCEPT the tank. So now that they've introduced a mobile unit that could compliment this army, the tank is becoming less and less used in favor of mobility. Although I would argue that the tank is still the best option in TvZ and it can still be Decent in TvP and TvT, it's just not the star of the show anymore in TvT and now that battle helions and Warhounds have eliminated it's main threats, it's free to be utilized in TvP.
Again, just a laymans perspective, but I think with changes to the Warhound that I suggested or possibly something better to balance out the equation, Warhounds would be a nice way to implement tanks safely into TvP and would possibly remove some of the spotlight from tanks in TvT.
Describing the warhound as conceptually not allowed to be a unit because it does not fit as into the concept of "mech" is an impossible argument and it's clear the developer's don't have this mindset, otherwise the warhound wouldn't exist yet. So, while I love to hear complaints on the warhound(sarcasm), that's the least of the reasoning that should ever be put against it.
Edit: The warhound in eearly TvZ is basically a stalker that micros back with it's range and takes potshots.
Otherwise, what I want to say about this patch is a warning. Looking at how stale WOL can get if you watch the same matchup too much, I realize all the things lost. Void ray speed? etc etc the one thing I hope Blizzard can do with HOTS is balance the game but at the same time maintain a large amount of diversity into the gameplay. It's the only thing that WOL's missing in my eyes.
On September 08 2012 19:36 Garmer wrote: the speed of the warhound is crucial, or we have another immobile mech army, they should work in the other department, the speed is perfect
I signed in just for this.
Are you serious? Do you not understand the fundamentals of mech play?
*******MECH PLAY IS SUPPOSED TO BE IMMOBILE.********
The issue with 'Mech' in WoL was not its immobility, that is SHOULD be the problem with mech. The issue was, there was no way to deal with charge-lots effectively (hence battle hellion), and the lack of Anti-Air from factory tech.
So the battle hellion, and a unit that has a moderate ground attack and a very good aerial attack were the key additions needed.
So they fixed part of the issue with the battle hellion. The problem with the warhound is that it does not address any issues with mech. The unit makes mech a mobile composition, which is not what we want, does not provide a aerial attack for terrans to deal with voidray, tempest, phoenix, muta, ect, which is what terran needs.
Leave the battle hellion alone. Make tanks siege mode attack a bit stronger. (or something of this sort, don't know how it would effect other match ups) Nerf Warhound ground attack substantially, and add a effective aerial attack.
Ideally, the warhound should not be absolutely decimating stalkers, it should be matching up fairly to them. While also having the capability to pew pew some air units.
double post but mech isnt immobile, if you know how to use them correctly
they CAN be the fastest and most annoying mofos outhere
learn2play bw kthxbye
perhaps in your D league mech can be fast, where mech is nothing but vultures? LOOOOL
Get the goddamn carriers back in the game and buff the tempest. I simply cannot comprehend the minds that would replace the carrier with the tempest. You'd think that the super advanced protoss fleet will look at their overwhelming carrier fleets and go "hum...this sucks, let's replace it with a spoon killing artillery ship. It feels way more badass yo to kill something 5x slower but 2x further"
Mothership core is a bit underwhelming now too.
In fact, everything about protoss is underwhelming. I facepalm nearly everytime I'm watching beta PvT in hots so far.
On September 09 2012 07:54 RavenLoud wrote: Get the goddamn carriers back in the game and buff the tempest. I simply cannot comprehend the minds of a sane mind that would replace the carrier with the tempest. You'd think that the super advanced protoss fleet will look at their overwhelming carrier fleets and go "hum...this sucks, let's replace it with a spoon killing artillery ship. It feels way more badass yo to kill something 5x slower but 2x further"
Mothership core is a bit underwhelming now too.
In fact, everything about protoss is underwhelming. I facepalm nearly everytime I'm watching beta PvT in hots so far.
Uhm.
What you just described is the mindset of every major military force for the last two hundred years.
Tanks didn't make Brood War. A combination of tanks, vultures, goliaths and mines made BW mech. We're got most of those unit types. Tanks are in game. Vultures are hellions in a roundabout way. Goliaths can easily be vikings/warhounds. Now we just need the mines to work and BW mech becomes a reality in SC2.
BW mech has been wrongly portrayed as an invincible positional spread of doom, blocking off entire avenues of attack. If this was true, how the hell did anyone ever win against it? It was never like that. Every game I ever saw of BW mech turned out more or less the same way as every marine tank game I've ever seen - the tanks whittle down numbers, the buffer does damage as the tanks whittle the numbers down. The only major difference is that mines made it so cost ineffective to go down certain pathways.
What is missing isn't awesome tanks. It's mines. The Widow Mine is the key to making an awesome mech playstyle work.
On September 09 2012 07:39 Bippzy wrote: I'm just gonna go ahead and throw it out there.
Describing the warhound as conceptually not allowed to be a unit because it does not fit as into the concept of "mech" is an impossible argument and it's clear the developer's don't have this mindset, otherwise the warhound wouldn't exist yet. So, while I love to hear complaints on the warhound(sarcasm), that's the least of the reasoning that should ever be put against it.
Edit: The warhound in eearly TvZ is basically a stalker that micros back with it's range and takes potshots.
Otherwise, what I want to say about this patch is a warning. Looking at how stale WOL can get if you watch the same matchup too much, I realize all the things lost. Void ray speed? etc etc the one thing I hope Blizzard can do with HOTS is balance the game but at the same time maintain a large amount of diversity into the gameplay. It's the only thing that WOL's missing in my eyes.
I agree with the comment on the Warhounds speed, and I agree with this post as well. There's no sense in classifying an entire tech path based on what the current metagame for it is or the traditional way it was played.
The main point I agree with in this post is the comment on how stale the gameplay has become in WOL. To me, it's lost all surprise, and really the match-ups in general seem like they can be predicted rather easily. Most TvT on the professional level are marine tank vs marine tank, and while this can be entertaining to watch, it gets rather dull as the game goes on and the match-up continues this course, it doesn't help that this very same composition is extremely optimal in TvZ as well and is also the standard for that matchup as well. Although the difference is that it alters near the end game when you want to switch to marauder productions for Ultralisks and tanks become less viable regardless due to broodlords, which in my opinion becomes even more of a concern with the introduction of the swarm hosts.
TvP is another relatively predictable match up where it's always safe to assume that the opponent is going to go bio centric which makes me happy that with the introduction fot he warhound and the Battle Helion, this will open a bit more diversity in this match up. TvZ can actually be very interesting due to mech being highly optimal as well with Raven Transitions being viable as well, So for the most part, I'd say TvZ is Terran's most diverse match up in terms of strategy and composition, where as in TvT if you do mech it's more to gain the element of surprise on your opponent and never really goes past the tank war part of it.
So I think the Warhound abd battlehelion being introduced will add a bit more depth to TvT rather than just simple positioning, in the end people call TvT like a chess match, but in my opinion it's more like trench warfare, vast stretches of boredom follow by brief moments of sheer terror.
On September 09 2012 07:54 RavenLoud wrote: Get the goddamn carriers back in the game and buff the tempest. I simply cannot comprehend the minds of a sane mind that would replace the carrier with the tempest. You'd think that the super advanced protoss fleet will look at their overwhelming carrier fleets and go "hum...this sucks, let's replace it with a spoon killing artillery ship. It feels way more badass yo to kill something 5x slower but 2x further"
Mothership core is a bit underwhelming now too.
In fact, everything about protoss is underwhelming. I facepalm nearly everytime I'm watching beta PvT in hots so far.
Uhm.
What you just described is the mindset of every major military force for the last two hundred years.
No, the mindset was to make shit that not only shoot further but also blow up stuff bigger and faster and to merge everything coherently.
Replacing the carrier with the tempest is like getting rid of all the AKs and submachine guns and only use bolt actioned sniper rifles instead.
EDIT: Basically, there will always be a room for big accurate long range stuff i.e. tempests, but it's just stupid lore wise and gameplay wise to replace the extremely solid and overwhelming brute force that should compose the beef off the army aka carriers.
On September 08 2012 19:36 Garmer wrote: the speed of the warhound is crucial, or we have another immobile mech army, they should work in the other department, the speed is perfect
I signed in just for this.
Are you serious? Do you not understand the fundamentals of mech play?
*******MECH PLAY IS SUPPOSED TO BE IMMOBILE.********
The issue with 'Mech' in WoL was not its immobility, that is SHOULD be the problem with mech. The issue was, there was no way to deal with charge-lots effectively (hence battle hellion), and the lack of Anti-Air from factory tech.
So the battle hellion, and a unit that has a moderate ground attack and a very good aerial attack were the key additions needed.
So they fixed part of the issue with the battle hellion. The problem with the warhound is that it does not address any issues with mech. The unit makes mech a mobile composition, which is not what we want, does not provide a aerial attack for terrans to deal with voidray, tempest, phoenix, muta, ect, which is what terran needs.
Leave the battle hellion alone. Make tanks siege mode attack a bit stronger. (or something of this sort, don't know how it would effect other match ups) Nerf Warhound ground attack substantially, and add a effective aerial attack.
Ideally, the warhound should not be absolutely decimating stalkers, it should be matching up fairly to them. While also having the capability to pew pew some air units.
double post but mech isnt immobile, if you know how to use them correctly
they CAN be the fastest and most annoying mofos outhere
learn2play bw kthxbye
No need to be immature with your quick little snarky comments at the end.
I've played BW for a very long time, and a lot of us have, so do not assume.
Mech is mobile? Hmmm, let me see. If you mech army consists of JUST vultures, then indeed yes.
But what about tanks? You think you can just torpedo walk your tanks from one side of the map to the other and just siege them up? No, you will be caught out of position and you will die a horrible death.
Obviously the harassment of vultures/hellions and their maneuverability was/is not immobile, but when the actual units that win you battles come into play, mech was the most immobile unit composition in the game. You can't sit there and say that you were bouncing from base to base all over the map with Siege Tanks and Goliaths, don't be silly.
Ok so I completely understand some of the complaints here, particularly about the hidious warhound.
But there seems to be a bit of amnesia here with some of the doom-forecasting. Remember Flux Vanes? Remember Void Ray's original damage?
Werent roaches like, 1 supply 2 armour, and lower cost than they are now?
Remember when A nexus wasnt 1000/1500 or whatever it is now?
Remember this is a beta. Bliz has a good record of tweaking the game until it works right.
Before you toss out HoTs (some of you who refuse to buy the game) remember what SC2 looked like in its early days.
As an aside, more than balancing the Warhound, they really need to redesign how it looks. Its painfully ugly, and looks markedly different really than any unit in the game, in a bad way.
Someone somewhere posted this suggestion for the Tempest, and I think it's a great idea. Remove the Fleet Beacon requirement and just give it the range upgrade to begin with. However, tune it to be a Tier 2 Stargate Unit instead of a Tier 3 unit, in both stats and cost/build time. That way it feels like the Protoss have a new mid tier unit. Also, you can put the Carrier back in as the Stargate Tier 3 Fleet Beacon required unit.
The Carrier and Tempest have vastly different roles, despite both being "siege range capital ships."
The Carrier is used as a late game money dump to add to the deathball, particularly against Broodlords. Also, we've recently seen MC use it for a very strong two base all in. Clearly, the Carrier is a "direct confrontation" army unit.
The Tempest is a very long range siege unit that can be used to harass expansions, pick off key units such as Infestors before battles, and other random uses.
yeah wtf, Immortal is awesome. Immortal and Warp Prism is even better
Way to make a poll which purposely leaves out most of the cool protoss units. What MCDayC says backs up my point though. If Immortal was designed as a high burst damage/ droppable type of unit (like reaver), rather than a siege tank counter from the start it would be even more interesting than it is today. Blizzard even admitted they were surprised to find the immortal most often being used in a specialized damage role rather than a damage taking role. The shield ability does nothing good, give it more offense instead to compliment warp prism strategies for it. Then tanks can have a role in the matchup without a crazy addition like warhounds to cover up an old design flaw.
Exchange oracle for a similar unit of the reaver or just give us the reaver itself and take away the oracle....make tempest tier 2 and adjust stats for it to be tier 2 like and bring back carriers...they need to stop poking toss with these half ass units when the other race are getting decent new units...shit now we have blinding cloud+fungal to deal with let alone abduction+ neural parasite, spine+ swarm host rush, warhound, battle hellion+marauder, etc
On September 08 2012 19:36 Garmer wrote: the speed of the warhound is crucial, or we have another immobile mech army, they should work in the other department, the speed is perfect
I signed in just for this.
Are you serious? Do you not understand the fundamentals of mech play?
*******MECH PLAY IS SUPPOSED TO BE IMMOBILE.********
The issue with 'Mech' in WoL was not its immobility, that is SHOULD be the problem with mech. The issue was, there was no way to deal with charge-lots effectively (hence battle hellion), and the lack of Anti-Air from factory tech.
So the battle hellion, and a unit that has a moderate ground attack and a very good aerial attack were the key additions needed.
So they fixed part of the issue with the battle hellion. The problem with the warhound is that it does not address any issues with mech. The unit makes mech a mobile composition, which is not what we want, does not provide a aerial attack for terrans to deal with voidray, tempest, phoenix, muta, ect, which is what terran needs.
Leave the battle hellion alone. Make tanks siege mode attack a bit stronger. (or something of this sort, don't know how it would effect other match ups) Nerf Warhound ground attack substantially, and add a effective aerial attack.
Ideally, the warhound should not be absolutely decimating stalkers, it should be matching up fairly to them. While also having the capability to pew pew some air units.
double post but mech isnt immobile, if you know how to use them correctly
they CAN be the fastest and most annoying mofos outhere
learn2play bw kthxbye
perhaps in your D league mech can be fast, where mech is nothing but vultures? LOOOOL
yeah wtf, Immortal is awesome. Immortal and Warp Prism is even better
Way to make a poll which purposely leaves out most of the cool protoss units. What MCDayC says backs up my point though. If Immortal was designed as a high burst damage/ droppable type of unit (like reaver), rather than a siege tank counter from the start it would be even more interesting than it is today. Blizzard even admitted they were surprised to find the immortal most often being used in a specialized damage role rather than a damage taking role. The shield ability does nothing good, give it more offense instead to compliment warp prism strategies for it. Then tanks can have a role in the matchup without a crazy addition like warhounds to cover up an old design flaw.
The poll isn't mine, it's from around May. The thread was about "What is your favorite new WOL unit" or something like that, so it only included units not from BW.
But calling Immortals retarded and demanding a replacement does not reflect the community's wishes at all.
On September 08 2012 19:36 Garmer wrote: the speed of the warhound is crucial, or we have another immobile mech army, they should work in the other department, the speed is perfect
I signed in just for this.
Are you serious? Do you not understand the fundamentals of mech play?
*******MECH PLAY IS SUPPOSED TO BE IMMOBILE.********
The issue with 'Mech' in WoL was not its immobility, that is SHOULD be the problem with mech. The issue was, there was no way to deal with charge-lots effectively (hence battle hellion), and the lack of Anti-Air from factory tech.
So the battle hellion, and a unit that has a moderate ground attack and a very good aerial attack were the key additions needed.
So they fixed part of the issue with the battle hellion. The problem with the warhound is that it does not address any issues with mech. The unit makes mech a mobile composition, which is not what we want, does not provide a aerial attack for terrans to deal with voidray, tempest, phoenix, muta, ect, which is what terran needs.
Leave the battle hellion alone. Make tanks siege mode attack a bit stronger. (or something of this sort, don't know how it would effect other match ups) Nerf Warhound ground attack substantially, and add a effective aerial attack.
Ideally, the warhound should not be absolutely decimating stalkers, it should be matching up fairly to them. While also having the capability to pew pew some air units.
double post but mech isnt immobile, if you know how to use them correctly
they CAN be the fastest and most annoying mofos outhere
learn2play bw kthxbye
perhaps in your D league mech can be fast, where mech is nothing but vultures? LOOOOL
i got to C+ in iccup thx Xeris_ChoDing
C+ jezus? Next up OSL? lol. No offense, but saying mech is fast was ridiculous. I've seen enough pro tvp to know mech is not fast.
Not to mention you told people to learn2play when you're only C. If you were A on iccup and maybe 1500+ FISH or something your opinion would hold some truth. But for now I'll accept what I see in top korean games and not what a C level player on iccup has to say...
Hots makes me wish there is a genius who can provide the RTS we are waiting for, CS & DotA were home made afterall, I don't believe in blizzard anymore.
On September 09 2012 10:04 GhandiEAGLE wrote: I hope both mech and bio is gonna be viable for Terran, I play them because I have options, not just to do one strat >.<
Protoss had one viable strat in every match up in the game at one point. Count your blessings already, protoss is already the race with the least options of which to choose. The biggest choice you have to make in pvt for example is which aoe you want first, colossus or storm.
On September 09 2012 10:04 GhandiEAGLE wrote: I hope both mech and bio is gonna be viable for Terran, I play them because I have options, not just to do one strat >.<
Protoss had one viable strat in every match up in the game at one point. Count your blessings already, protoss is already the race with the least options of which to choose. The biggest choice you have to make in pvt for example is which aoe you want first, colossus or storm.
So we should be focusing on giving Protoss more options, not trying to limit what Terrans can do because Protoss is poorly designed that way.
On September 09 2012 05:40 ChoDing wrote: good bye, sc 2 forever
blizzard gotta make new fucking series soon
please dont make Word of Starcraft -___-
BW was the best and they killed it ...now what...
So. Sick. Of. This.
GTFO already with the brood war shit. We're on the topic of HOTS ffs.
That having been said, all I want is something to breakup the Toss deathball. It's neither fun to play or play against.
Deal. With. It.
GTFO im just being realistic and i am also comparing with HOTS
and if you cant breakup the toss deathball, you are playing wrong fucking game
On September 09 2012 07:50 wcr.4fun wrote:
On September 09 2012 05:42 ChoDing wrote:
On September 09 2012 03:48 Smigi wrote:
On September 08 2012 19:36 Garmer wrote: the speed of the warhound is crucial, or we have another immobile mech army, they should work in the other department, the speed is perfect
I signed in just for this.
Are you serious? Do you not understand the fundamentals of mech play?
*******MECH PLAY IS SUPPOSED TO BE IMMOBILE.********
The issue with 'Mech' in WoL was not its immobility, that is SHOULD be the problem with mech. The issue was, there was no way to deal with charge-lots effectively (hence battle hellion), and the lack of Anti-Air from factory tech.
So the battle hellion, and a unit that has a moderate ground attack and a very good aerial attack were the key additions needed.
So they fixed part of the issue with the battle hellion. The problem with the warhound is that it does not address any issues with mech. The unit makes mech a mobile composition, which is not what we want, does not provide a aerial attack for terrans to deal with voidray, tempest, phoenix, muta, ect, which is what terran needs.
Leave the battle hellion alone. Make tanks siege mode attack a bit stronger. (or something of this sort, don't know how it would effect other match ups) Nerf Warhound ground attack substantially, and add a effective aerial attack.
Ideally, the warhound should not be absolutely decimating stalkers, it should be matching up fairly to them. While also having the capability to pew pew some air units.
double post but mech isnt immobile, if you know how to use them correctly
they CAN be the fastest and most annoying mofos outhere
learn2play bw kthxbye
perhaps in your D league mech can be fast, where mech is nothing but vultures? LOOOOL
i got to C+ in iccup thx Xeris_ChoDing
C+ jezus? Next up OSL? lol. No offense, but saying mech is fast was ridiculous. I've seen enough pro tvp to know mech is not fast.
Not to mention you told people to learn2play when you're only C. If you were A on iccup and maybe 1500+ FISH or something your opinion would hold some truth. But for now I'll accept what I see in top korean games and not what a C level player on iccup has to say...
C+ back before SC2 was released, which is like at least B nowadays k. A lot better than you can do, judging from what I can tell eh?
There's a key difference between "fast" and "immobile" .. mech can be "fast", but it's "immobile" when it needs to effectively engage in a fight. So yes, mech is actually pretty fuckin quick, especially when the other player doesn't stall the push by repeatedly engaging (this happens more often than you think in timing push TvP)
IMO part of the solution of making warhound fit into mech, is to give it a transformation mode much like Siege tanks and Hellions.
Also, Protoss having a deathball is not the problem. In fact in BW, Protoss had deathballs in PvZ, and Terran had deathballs in TvP, and Terran/Zerg would have their own deathballs in TvZ. The problem is that in SC2 the interactions against these deathballs are not interesting (i.e. PvZ, where Zerg resorts to Broodlords because it's impossible to beat Protoss deathball otherwise). It also doesn't help that a certain unit (colossus) doesn't make controlling these deathballs very interesting either. It's up to Blizzard to make fighting against the deathball more interesting, and I think Vipers are a good step toward that direction.
On September 09 2012 05:40 ChoDing wrote: good bye, sc 2 forever
I don't understand. Why have you posted another half dozen times in this thread since you've said your goodbye? You sure do have an odd definition of "good bye" and "forever".
On September 09 2012 05:45 Chaosvuistje wrote: I like the tinkering with blinding cloud, but I feel that it lacks excitement because of the long range. I think it would bring more excitement if the range was reduced so the viper has to be more exposed, I mean 9 range is a lot for a spell that basically makes tanks useless if they are sieged up.
That way you can have the spell be either used in retreat or in have the viper be more at risk for trying to use it offensively. To have it work more positionally rather than the feel that it can just be cast from everywhere like the abduct spell.
I agree with the warhound and the swarm host change though. While I love the swarm host's concept the locusts were just a little bit too beefy for a free unit. Warhound should really just be removed, see absolutely no room for excitement in that unit.
On September 09 2012 05:45 Chaosvuistje wrote: I like the tinkering with blinding cloud, but I feel that it lacks excitement because of the long range. I think it would bring more excitement if the range was reduced so the viper has to be more exposed, I mean 9 range is a lot for a spell that basically makes tanks useless if they are sieged up.
That way you can have the spell be either used in retreat or in have the viper be more at risk for trying to use it offensively. To have it work more positionally rather than the feel that it can just be cast from everywhere like the abduct spell.
I agree with the warhound and the swarm host change though. While I love the swarm host's concept the locusts were just a little bit too beefy for a free unit. Warhound should really just be removed, see absolutely no room for excitement in that unit.
Well the Thor's air attack has a range of 10 so i guess if they mix some Thors into their composition then they cannot cast without being hit. It would be good if they could make it so that battles come down to micro between vipers and ghosts, but there should be an even playing field for it, so that its purely reaction time and focus fire that determines the outcome, as opposed to the outcome being determined purely by whether or not one side fucks up somehow.
On September 08 2012 06:13 purakushi wrote: I think that the main problem with warhounds is the haywire, not necessarily the main attack. You can just kite stalkers/sentries with its range.
I disagree, even on non mechanical units it beats everything. It destroys bio army's extremely quickly and efficiently.
Ah, that's true. I guess it needs both nerfs >_< Well, I would mainly like to see haywire be castable, so it at least takes some micro to use. I doubt Blizzard is going to do that, though. Catering to making the game easier...
Should haywire still completely ignore immortal shields, though? =\
That's the point of the unit. Make it so Immortal's don't ass rape Tanks. Battle Hellions is so that Zealots don't ass rape tanks. Now that it's DPS is lowered and the Warhound doesn't counter everything, people might actually make Tanks.
It's a terribly designed unit but they are trying to make Tanks more viable in TvP.
Actually, Blizzard's main goal of the warhound is to break the TvT siege tank scan wars. Of course, having a viable mech option versus Protoss is necessary to balance.
I thought that's what we had Battlecruisers and Banshee's for, the TvT siege lines. O_o
On September 09 2012 05:45 Chaosvuistje wrote: I like the tinkering with blinding cloud, but I feel that it lacks excitement because of the long range. I think it would bring more excitement if the range was reduced so the viper has to be more exposed, I mean 9 range is a lot for a spell that basically makes tanks useless if they are sieged up.
That way you can have the spell be either used in retreat or in have the viper be more at risk for trying to use it offensively. To have it work more positionally rather than the feel that it can just be cast from everywhere like the abduct spell.
I agree with the warhound and the swarm host change though. While I love the swarm host's concept the locusts were just a little bit too beefy for a free unit. Warhound should really just be removed, see absolutely no room for excitement in that unit.
Well the Thor's air attack has a range of 10 so i guess if they mix some Thors into their composition then they cannot cast without being hit. It would be good if they could make it so that battles come down to micro between vipers and ghosts, but there should be an even playing field for it, so that its purely reaction time and focus fire that determines the outcome, as opposed to the outcome being determined purely by whether or not one side fucks up somehow.
Was watching IdrA use them earlier and if they had any less range they would just get killed before they could get a cast off. They only have 120 HP which isn't a whole lot when Thors and Vikings are pounding away.
On September 08 2012 06:13 purakushi wrote: I think that the main problem with warhounds is the haywire, not necessarily the main attack. You can just kite stalkers/sentries with its range.
I disagree, even on non mechanical units it beats everything. It destroys bio army's extremely quickly and efficiently.
Ah, that's true. I guess it needs both nerfs >_< Well, I would mainly like to see haywire be castable, so it at least takes some micro to use. I doubt Blizzard is going to do that, though. Catering to making the game easier...
Should haywire still completely ignore immortal shields, though? =\
That's the point of the unit. Make it so Immortal's don't ass rape Tanks. Battle Hellions is so that Zealots don't ass rape tanks. Now that it's DPS is lowered and the Warhound doesn't counter everything, people might actually make Tanks.
It's a terribly designed unit but they are trying to make Tanks more viable in TvP.
How do warhounds make tanks more viable when they're build out of the same structure? "oh look tanks get ripped apart screw building them lets just mass warhounds hellions and vikings and we'll win"
In WoL its zealots counter tanks, hellions counter zealots, stalkers counter hellions/reapers, marauders counter stalkers/immortal (unless you have korean micro)
By looking at HotS its zealots/immortals counter tanks, battle hellions rip apart zealots, stalkers kind of counter hellions, warhounds completely destroy stalkers/immortals and everything else in the way that comes out of robo tech.
With the way haywire missles looks to be there isnt even a need for tanks. People will probably still favour warhounds over tanks as they completely destroy almost every protoss ground unit...
I personally always thought that warhounds should have been made more like ghosts except instead of cloak, they got speed and durability and instead of snipe they got missiles. Like the one thing I always wanted to see was a spell caster like unit from the factory.
On September 08 2012 19:36 Garmer wrote: the speed of the warhound is crucial, or we have another immobile mech army, they should work in the other department, the speed is perfect
I signed in just for this.
Are you serious? Do you not understand the fundamentals of mech play?
*******MECH PLAY IS SUPPOSED TO BE IMMOBILE.********
The issue with 'Mech' in WoL was not its immobility, that is SHOULD be the problem with mech. The issue was, there was no way to deal with charge-lots effectively (hence battle hellion), and the lack of Anti-Air from factory tech.
So the battle hellion, and a unit that has a moderate ground attack and a very good aerial attack were the key additions needed.
So they fixed part of the issue with the battle hellion. The problem with the warhound is that it does not address any issues with mech. The unit makes mech a mobile composition, which is not what we want, does not provide a aerial attack for terrans to deal with voidray, tempest, phoenix, muta, ect, which is what terran needs.
Leave the battle hellion alone. Make tanks siege mode attack a bit stronger. (or something of this sort, don't know how it would effect other match ups) Nerf Warhound ground attack substantially, and add a effective aerial attack.
Ideally, the warhound should not be absolutely decimating stalkers, it should be matching up fairly to them. While also having the capability to pew pew some air units.
Let me use two words to describe a solution to your problem: "Goliath online".
On September 08 2012 06:13 purakushi wrote: I think that the main problem with warhounds is the haywire, not necessarily the main attack. You can just kite stalkers/sentries with its range.
I disagree, even on non mechanical units it beats everything. It destroys bio army's extremely quickly and efficiently.
Ah, that's true. I guess it needs both nerfs >_< Well, I would mainly like to see haywire be castable, so it at least takes some micro to use. I doubt Blizzard is going to do that, though. Catering to making the game easier...
Should haywire still completely ignore immortal shields, though? =\
That's the point of the unit. Make it so Immortal's don't ass rape Tanks. Battle Hellions is so that Zealots don't ass rape tanks. Now that it's DPS is lowered and the Warhound doesn't counter everything, people might actually make Tanks.
It's a terribly designed unit but they are trying to make Tanks more viable in TvP.
How do warhounds make tanks more viable when they're build out of the same structure? "oh look tanks get ripped apart screw building them lets just mass warhounds hellions and vikings and we'll win"
In WoL its zealots counter tanks, hellions counter zealots, stalkers counter hellions/reapers, marauders counter stalkers/immortal (unless you have korean micro)
By looking at HotS its zealots/immortals counter tanks, battle hellions rip apart zealots, stalkers kind of counter hellions, warhounds completely destroy stalkers/immortals and everything else in the way that comes out of robo tech.
With the way haywire missles looks to be there isnt even a need for tanks. People will probably still favour warhounds over tanks as they completely destroy almost every protoss ground unit...
Which is why protoss will go air.... OH WAIT THEY REMOVED CARRIERS! Loloolol. Let me go air without any air units that provide good dps. They tried to make stargate viable by removing the only unit that stargates made that had a good amount of dps. Then threw in a bunch of trash. And gave terran a unit that roflstomps all over every ground composition protoss can make. GG blizz.
On September 08 2012 06:13 purakushi wrote: I think that the main problem with warhounds is the haywire, not necessarily the main attack. You can just kite stalkers/sentries with its range.
I disagree, even on non mechanical units it beats everything. It destroys bio army's extremely quickly and efficiently.
Ah, that's true. I guess it needs both nerfs >_< Well, I would mainly like to see haywire be castable, so it at least takes some micro to use. I doubt Blizzard is going to do that, though. Catering to making the game easier...
Should haywire still completely ignore immortal shields, though? =\
That's the point of the unit. Make it so Immortal's don't ass rape Tanks. Battle Hellions is so that Zealots don't ass rape tanks. Now that it's DPS is lowered and the Warhound doesn't counter everything, people might actually make Tanks.
It's a terribly designed unit but they are trying to make Tanks more viable in TvP.
How do warhounds make tanks more viable when they're build out of the same structure? "oh look tanks get ripped apart screw building them lets just mass warhounds hellions and vikings and we'll win"
In WoL its zealots counter tanks, hellions counter zealots, stalkers counter hellions/reapers, marauders counter stalkers/immortal (unless you have korean micro)
By looking at HotS its zealots/immortals counter tanks, battle hellions rip apart zealots, stalkers kind of counter hellions, warhounds completely destroy stalkers/immortals and everything else in the way that comes out of robo tech.
With the way haywire missles looks to be there isnt even a need for tanks. People will probably still favour warhounds over tanks as they completely destroy almost every protoss ground unit...
Which is why protoss will go air.... OH WAIT THEY REMOVED CARRIERS! Loloolol. Let me go air without any air units that provide good dps. They tried to make stargate viable by removing the only unit that stargates made that had a good amount of dps. Then threw in a bunch of trash. And gave terran a unit that roflstomps all over every ground composition protoss can make. GG blizz.
Protoss needs the tempest to be a big heavy hitter from the air but it's a bit lackluster and almost makes stargate a dead end tech path. I'd like to see a long distance shot that had a projectile animation that was dodgeable. In turn make it much more powerful almost like a reaver but in the air. Distance would give the enemy a 1 to 2 second window to micro his units out of the way or they get blasted.
On September 08 2012 06:20 Torte de Lini wrote: Haha, viper buffed even more, jesus
To me, it's a nerf, the appeal of Bliding Swarm was its effectiveness at being a large, area of effect cover spell vs Terran and Zerg biological forces, with the exception of Stalkers, everything else was dealt with via Abduct. Now Abduct is more of a niche spell and Bliding Cloud is the go to spell, it's bad game design IMO.
I always tought when HOTS hits they would revert the suply depot before barracks requirement and maybe buff tanks to what they used to be. With HOTS they have another chance to make the game work like it was originally wanted to be designed (Dustin DID, in my opinion, understand that every race needs to be overpovered, but later made the game boring as fuck with stupid changes for stupid reasons like small maps, 2v2 reaper/voidray abuse, too much micro required etc.) but theyre just building ontop of WoL the way it is now (boring) which is imo a bad thing.
On September 08 2012 06:20 Torte de Lini wrote: Haha, viper buffed even more, jesus
To me, it's a nerf, the appeal of Bliding Swarm was its effectiveness at being a large, area of effect cover spell vs Terran and Zerg biological forces, with the exception of Stalkers, everything else was dealt with via Abduct. Now Abduct is more of a niche spell and Bliding Cloud is the go to spell, it's bad game design IMO.
I see it in a different way. Now both spells will be equally useful. If you are fighting slow units, or immobile like Siege Tanks, it is better to use Blinding Cloud even though it has small AoE, but on the other hand, vs. Protoss I would still only use Abduct, since Protoss can just retreat from Blinding Cloud. Then, I would also use Blinding Cloud on Bio army that has to reposition themselves to be able to shoot, and there isn't a unit in a bio that I should use Abduct over Blinding Cloud. On Warhounds abduct, on Thors you can use both. And obviously everybody will be using Abduct vs. Air units, since Blinding Cloud doesn't work on them.
The Blinding Cloud...affected area is only 1.5? What is the AOE for Fungal Growth, EMP and Psi Storm? I"m asking because I don't actually know. But would it be reasonable for all four of these to have a similar AOE?
On September 09 2012 16:54 REFLEX_500 wrote: The Blinding Cloud...affected area is only 1.5? What is the AOE for Fungal Growth, EMP and Psi Storm? I"m asking because I don't actually know. But would it be reasonable for all four of these to have a similar AOE?
It's really small. There is a video where you can see the past-patch Blinding Cloud from Catz I think but I could find it right now. Btw: EMP has 1.5 radius after patch. - So it's really small :D
On September 09 2012 16:29 NukeD wrote: I always tought when HOTS hits they would revert the suply depot before barracks requirement and maybe buff tanks to what they used to be. With HOTS they have another chance to make the game work like it was originally wanted to be designed (Dustin DID, in my opinion, understand that every race needs to be overpovered, but later made the game boring as fuck with stupid changes for stupid reasons like small maps, 2v2 reaper/voidray abuse, too much micro required etc.) but theyre just building ontop of WoL the way it is now (boring) which is imo a bad thing.
There is no reason to revert rax change. Early game didn't changed almost at all except for some early warhound rushes.
When you look at the warhound, you don't feel that the terrans have human technology and the protoss are the advanced aliens. It should be like BW: Terrans having to cover behind mines to avoid direct confrontation with protoss and firing on them with long range weapons. This actual race design really is the opposite: with colossus doing the siege tank's job, and the Forcefields doing the spider mines' job.
Also, the widow mines shouldn't hit air.. I mean seriously, what is this?
The Warhound needs to get AA in its weaponry. Currently anyone going Mech is still forced to get a ton of Vikings. Why not keep the Haywire missiles but increase the reload time a bit, reduce the regular attack damage but give it a separate AA weapon. Haywire missiles, being a spell, would still do full damage to Immortals (or am I wrong here?) so Warhounds could help alleviate two of Mech's weakpoints: Immortals and Air units. Blue flame Battle Hellions could keep the Chargelots at bay and Tanks/Thors could then demolish the rest.
On September 09 2012 18:57 Thezzy wrote: The Warhound needs to get AA in its weaponry. Currently anyone going Mech is still forced to get a ton of Vikings. Why not keep the Haywire missiles but increase the reload time a bit, reduce the regular attack damage but give it a separate AA weapon. Haywire missiles, being a spell, would still do full damage to Immortals (or am I wrong here?) so Warhounds could help alleviate two of Mech's weakpoints: Immortals and Air units. Blue flame Battle Hellions could keep the Chargelots at bay and Tanks/Thors could then demolish the rest.
Mech needs weakpoints, otherwise it would be imbalanced and no-one would go bio. And Thors + vikings do a pretty decent job of dealing with air. If that fails, just go biomech? (add a few marines)
I agree that the Warhound needs a redesign though. Even if they copypaste the Goliath it would be an improvement IMO.
On September 09 2012 18:57 Thezzy wrote: The Warhound needs to get AA in its weaponry. Currently anyone going Mech is still forced to get a ton of Vikings. Why not keep the Haywire missiles but increase the reload time a bit, reduce the regular attack damage but give it a separate AA weapon. Haywire missiles, being a spell, would still do full damage to Immortals (or am I wrong here?) so Warhounds could help alleviate two of Mech's weakpoints: Immortals and Air units. Blue flame Battle Hellions could keep the Chargelots at bay and Tanks/Thors could then demolish the rest.
Mech needs weakpoints, otherwise it would be imbalanced and no-one would go bio. And Thors + vikings do a pretty decent job of dealing with air. If that fails, just go biomech? (add a few marines)
I agree that the Warhound needs a redesign though. Even if they copypaste the Goliath it would be an improvement IMO.
Mech has weak points; it's not as maneuverable as bio, you generally need a much bigger force to do damage, and losing mech units is generally a lot more expensive. The point is that being forced to make vikings all the time is boring and lacks flexibillity. If you go mech, you should be able to just go mech and then choose what support units you want to use.
On September 09 2012 16:29 NukeD wrote: I always tought when HOTS hits they would revert the suply depot before barracks requirement and maybe buff tanks to what they used to be. With HOTS they have another chance to make the game work like it was originally wanted to be designed (Dustin DID, in my opinion, understand that every race needs to be overpovered, but later made the game boring as fuck with stupid changes for stupid reasons like small maps, 2v2 reaper/voidray abuse, too much micro required etc.) but theyre just building ontop of WoL the way it is now (boring) which is imo a bad thing.
Kinda funnyy i was thinking this yesterday, now might just be the time for that
On September 09 2012 18:57 Thezzy wrote: The Warhound needs to get AA in its weaponry. Currently anyone going Mech is still forced to get a ton of Vikings. Why not keep the Haywire missiles but increase the reload time a bit, reduce the regular attack damage but give it a separate AA weapon. Haywire missiles, being a spell, would still do full damage to Immortals (or am I wrong here?) so Warhounds could help alleviate two of Mech's weakpoints: Immortals and Air units. Blue flame Battle Hellions could keep the Chargelots at bay and Tanks/Thors could then demolish the rest.
Mech needs weakpoints, otherwise it would be imbalanced and no-one would go bio. And Thors + vikings do a pretty decent job of dealing with air. If that fails, just go biomech? (add a few marines)
I agree that the Warhound needs a redesign though. Even if they copypaste the Goliath it would be an improvement IMO.
Yeah, I wouldn't mind if they would bring out more of the 'older' units. Goliath is a very versatile unit and isn't terrible, terrible damage.
On September 09 2012 20:51 Evangelist wrote: Just a question. People were saying earlier in another thread against tank buffing that tanks shouldn't one shot zerglings/marines.
Why is this?
Probably because people don't like their mistakes punished.
On September 09 2012 20:51 Evangelist wrote: Just a question. People were saying earlier in another thread against tank buffing that tanks shouldn't one shot zerglings/marines.
Why is this?
Probably because people don't like their mistakes punished.
Even collossi and high templar don't one-shot marines. Harder units to acquire than tanks because they require unit-specific tech buildings. It's retarded.
Terran needs to be nerfed in a big way or Toss needs a huge buff.
On September 09 2012 20:51 Evangelist wrote: Just a question. People were saying earlier in another thread against tank buffing that tanks shouldn't one shot zerglings/marines.
Why is this?
I've never understood this either.
The tank SHOULD one shot Marines. Sure bio would be much harder in TvT, but the siege tank is supposed to be powerful and a good way of holding spaces with smaller amounts of units. In Mech vs Bio TvT right now if you don't have all your tanks in a damn ball you just lose and in that case they just run around the entire map avoiding your tanks. You can't possibly split your tanks up as bio is just far too good against small numbers of tanks.
On September 09 2012 20:51 Evangelist wrote: Just a question. People were saying earlier in another thread against tank buffing that tanks shouldn't one shot zerglings/marines.
Why is this?
zergling yes marine no, like in BW , was perfect there
The tank SHOULD one shot Marines. Sure bio would be much harder in TvT, but the siege tank is supposed to be powerful and a good way of holding spaces with smaller amounts of units. In Mech vs Bio TvT right now if you don't have all your tanks in a damn ball you just lose and in that case they just run around the entire map avoiding your tanks. You can't possibly split your tanks up as bio is just far too good against small numbers of tanks.
Believe it or not, but Terran isn't the only race.
Tanks one-shotting marines makes them more powerful than collossi and high templars even though they don't require unit-specific buildings.
If tanks one-shot marines, then collossi should deal more damage and so should high templars.
Its funny how people bitching about tanks one shotting marines and draw parallels to how the collosus should behave forget that the collosus is a very mobile unit while a tank in siegemode is freaking stuck.
On September 09 2012 21:52 Kireak wrote: Its funny how people bitching about tanks one shotting marines and draw parallels to how the collosus should behave forget that the collosus is a very mobile unit while a tank in siegemode is freaking stuck.
You mean like the raven?
Collossi are much more expensive than tanks and require a special building. You get what you pay for. They're also necessary for Toss to stay in the game against marines and marauders.
Nerfing tanks seems the best way to nerf Terran. And they need a nerf ATM.
On September 09 2012 21:52 Kireak wrote: Its funny how people bitching about tanks one shotting marines and draw parallels to how the collosus should behave forget that the collosus is a very mobile unit while a tank in siegemode is freaking stuck.
You mean like the raven?
Collossi are much more expensive than tanks and require a special building. You get what you pay for. They're also necessary for Toss to stay in the game against marines and marauders.
Nerfing tanks seems the best way to nerf Terran. And they need a nerf ATM.
On September 09 2012 21:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Also: the tempest needs to be changed somehow. It's just getting shat on.
What's your problem, son? The entire Protoss race is getting shat on, not just the Tempest.
As a Protoss player who's been constantly watching HotS streams (especially the Protoss ones), I'm kind of afraid of this too... after all, it seems that the warhound, swarm host, and viper have all been integrated incredibly well into army compositions, and the three new Protoss units have really failed to impress me too. The Terran and Zerg units have strengthened glaring weaknesses (e.g. warhound allows for mech play, viper allows for breaking siege lines, swarm host allows for a siege contain of the Zerg variety).
On the other hand, it seems the intent of the new Protoss units were for peripheral assistance, like light harassment or making it easier to get up a fast expansion. And with these peripherals, I feel that their main purpose can be shut down rather easily. See an oracle that wants to harass your mineral line? Make a spore crawler or turret and you're fine (oracles are incredibly brittle too)... not to mention the fact that players will get used to instantly killing off the frozen minerals. Early mothership core for fast expansion in PvP? I've already seen standard blink observer play and even 4gate easily shut that down (they just run circles around- or focus down- the mothership core, and the expander simply doesn't have enough units to defend). That being said, I'm hoping that eventual strategies and cute tricks can evolve around the oracle and mothership core, simply because they've got so many different abilities. I think the potential is there, and I recognize that it's only in the early beta stages of HotS. Hopefully, my optimism isn't completely naive
On the other hand, the tempest seems to be a rather dead end unit unless Blizzard gives it an actual ability or changes something standard about it (e.g. give it splash damage, considering how slowly it attacks). I've seen even mass tempest (a huuuge resource sink and tech tree focus, mind you) get shut down with relative ease by most things that shoot air. I don't see how the tempest can ever evolve into a useful unit because it lacks the potential to be used in any way other than a "long range tickler" at the moment.
So while I think that- at the moment- all of our units were designed with less useful intentions than the Terran and Zerg ones, I'm hoping that we Protoss players can find a way to come up with some ways to make some of our new units useful. (Basically, we need Kiwikaki.) I just think we're really screwed with the current tempest model though.
yeah wtf, Immortal is awesome. Immortal and Warp Prism is even better
Way to make a poll which purposely leaves out most of the cool protoss units. What MCDayC says backs up my point though. If Immortal was designed as a high burst damage/ droppable type of unit (like reaver), rather than a siege tank counter from the start it would be even more interesting than it is today. Blizzard even admitted they were surprised to find the immortal most often being used in a specialized damage role rather than a damage taking role. The shield ability does nothing good, give it more offense instead to compliment warp prism strategies for it. Then tanks can have a role in the matchup without a crazy addition like warhounds to cover up an old design flaw.
The poll isn't mine, it's from around May. The thread was about "What is your favorite new WOL unit" or something like that, so it only included units not from BW.
But calling Immortals retarded and demanding a replacement does not reflect the community's wishes at all.
I was calling for a redesign of the immortal to get rid of the power shield and replace it with something like a powershot or a similiar ability to compliment it's offensive power. Then immortal becomes stronger in the back lines, and with a warp prism, tanks become more viable, everyone's happy. The shield is retarded, it was only there to make sure that pure mech never became viable against protoss in WoL. Now they're adding warhound with a silly autocast missile because they want to revert that decision, and the missiles are the only thing in the mech arsenal that can pierce through immortal shields effectively. It's an easy problem to fix, remove the shield and you can scale back the missiles. Maybe my suggestion doesn't reflect the community's wishes because they don't understand what they're missing? That's what his post suggested to me.
I don't think you would want to use Dark swar... Uh Blinding cloud over abduct because let's say you want to engage vs marine tank with Muta/Ling/Viper, I'd rather abduct the tanks than use the blinding clouds on the tanks.
Effectively, the cloud will only blind one tank, and so will the abduct, but abduct costs less energy and means a free tank for you.
On September 09 2012 18:57 Thezzy wrote: The Warhound needs to get AA in its weaponry. Currently anyone going Mech is still forced to get a ton of Vikings. Why not keep the Haywire missiles but increase the reload time a bit, reduce the regular attack damage but give it a separate AA weapon. Haywire missiles, being a spell, would still do full damage to Immortals (or am I wrong here?) so Warhounds could help alleviate two of Mech's weakpoints: Immortals and Air units. Blue flame Battle Hellions could keep the Chargelots at bay and Tanks/Thors could then demolish the rest.
Mech needs weakpoints, otherwise it would be imbalanced and no-one would go bio. And Thors + vikings do a pretty decent job of dealing with air. If that fails, just go biomech? (add a few marines)
I agree that the Warhound needs a redesign though. Even if they copypaste the Goliath it would be an improvement IMO.
If they do mech right, we'll be seeing missile turrets and mines accompanying pushes and back at home to deal with some of the air threats.
On September 09 2012 18:57 Thezzy wrote: The Warhound needs to get AA in its weaponry. Currently anyone going Mech is still forced to get a ton of Vikings. Why not keep the Haywire missiles but increase the reload time a bit, reduce the regular attack damage but give it a separate AA weapon.
Needs chitinous plating too. And should move as fast as speedlings. Also, why aren't they permanently cloaked units and count as Terran buildings? They should be able to lift off.
You realize that one unit isn't supposed to be able to automatically kill everything else in the game, right? Besides, after the warhound nerf (which came because every Terran player was just massing warhounds and winning games), a bunch of Terrans are going only warhound + thor and still winning. Thors shoot up, by the way. And thors are mech. Also, there's no rule that says you're never allowed to make vikings or marines for light support.
On September 09 2012 21:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Also: the tempest needs to be changed somehow. It's just getting shat on.
What's your problem, son? The entire Protoss race is getting shat on, not just the Tempest.
As a Protoss player who's been constantly watching HotS streams (especially the Protoss ones), I'm kind of afraid of this too... after all, it seems that the warhound, swarm host, and viper have all been integrated incredibly well into army compositions, and the three new Protoss units have really failed to impress me too. The Terran and Zerg units have strengthened glaring weaknesses (e.g. warhound allows for mech play, viper allows for breaking siege lines, swarm host allows for a siege contain of the Zerg variety).
On the other hand, it seems the intent of the new Protoss units were for peripheral assistance, like light harassment or making it easier to get up a fast expansion. And with these peripherals, I feel that their main purpose can be shut down rather easily. See an oracle that wants to harass your mineral line? Make a spore crawler or turret and you're fine (oracles are incredibly brittle too)... not to mention the fact that players will get used to instantly killing off the frozen minerals. Early mothership core for fast expansion in PvP? I've already seen standard blink observer play and even 4gate easily shut that down (they just run circles around- or focus down- the mothership core, and the expander simply doesn't have enough units to defend). That being said, I'm hoping that eventual strategies and cute tricks can evolve around the oracle and mothership core, simply because they've got so many different abilities. I think the potential is there, and I recognize that it's only in the early beta stages of HotS. Hopefully, my optimism isn't completely naive
On the other hand, the tempest seems to be a rather dead end unit unless Blizzard gives it an actual ability or changes something standard about it (e.g. give it splash damage, considering how slowly it attacks). I've seen even mass tempest (a huuuge resource sink and tech tree focus, mind you) get shut down with relative ease by most things that shoot air. I don't see how the tempest can ever evolve into a useful unit because it lacks the potential to be used in any way other than a "long range tickler" at the moment.
So while I think that- at the moment- all of our units were designed with less useful intentions than the Terran and Zerg ones, I'm hoping that we Protoss players can find a way to come up with some ways to make some of our new units useful. (Basically, we need Kiwikaki.) I just think we're really screwed with the current tempest model though.
I feel like Blizzard is pulling some power out of the protoss deathball by removing the carrier, and adding in new units that don't compliment the deathball at all, but are instead useful for harassing the army or economy of the opponent long before any big fight happens. I think this is a good direction to go for protoss, but I don't think protoss was ever intended to be the stronger race in a straight up lategame fight on the ground. They're too mobile for that, compared to broodwar mech. The shock from newer protoss players over losing these 1A fights to mech in hots is funny to me. Now they have to learn to play more like BW toss. Whitera was handling mech pretty decently when I watched his stream.
so, the warhound is just as op as before? Just shooting slower, a massive unit that costs the same as a stalker and can kill immortals stalkers and zealots with ease, not to mention roaches and queens -.-
On September 09 2012 23:16 Diabulus wrote: so, the warhound is just as op as before? Just shooting slower, a massive unit that costs the same as a stalker and can kill immortals stalkers and zealots with ease, not to mention roaches and queens -.-
I don't think warhounds are massive units (I've seen them get stopped by forcefields before, rather than crushing through them).
Other than that... I suppose they're going to get nerfed until "mass warhound" or "warhound + 1 other unit" doesn't become a standard army composition. I've even seen warhound rushes that just straight up roll over other players, but I'm not sure if that's because the warhound is still overpowered or because players haven't figured out how to handle the attacks yet.
The only time I've seen big, early warhound all-in attacks really get shut down in TvP is when the Protoss player rushes for stargate tech and (almost blindly) pumps out void rays (probably assuming that warhounds were coming).
On September 09 2012 18:57 Thezzy wrote: The Warhound needs to get AA in its weaponry. Currently anyone going Mech is still forced to get a ton of Vikings. Why not keep the Haywire missiles but increase the reload time a bit, reduce the regular attack damage but give it a separate AA weapon.
Needs chitinous plating too. And should move as fast as speedlings. Also, why aren't they permanently cloaked units and count as Terran buildings? They should be able to lift off.
You realize that one unit isn't supposed to be able to automatically kill everything else in the game, right? Besides, after the warhound nerf (which came because every Terran player was just massing warhounds and winning games), a bunch of Terrans are going only warhound + thor and still winning. Thors shoot up, by the way. And thors are mech. Also, there's no rule that says you're never allowed to make vikings or marines for light support.
Funny coming from a guy who plays a race that shares upgrade for gateway units and robo, and that always stick to one tech path. What he says is : make the WH a goliath. If you think this is a bad idea then GL playing against the WH in its current state and get your immo/stalkers raped hardcore
I still don't get how in hell the warhound is still 2 supply.
I like the change for the viper cloud though, I saw sheth and slush murder every bio comp with it, the radius nerf makes a chance for the mobile bio to dodge them clouds.
Also, why not buff the tempest? Everyone is unanimously agreeing that as it stands now it's utterly worthless. Can't wait for the next patch!
On September 09 2012 18:57 Thezzy wrote: The Warhound needs to get AA in its weaponry. Currently anyone going Mech is still forced to get a ton of Vikings. Why not keep the Haywire missiles but increase the reload time a bit, reduce the regular attack damage but give it a separate AA weapon.
Needs chitinous plating too. And should move as fast as speedlings. Also, why aren't they permanently cloaked units and count as Terran buildings? They should be able to lift off.
You realize that one unit isn't supposed to be able to automatically kill everything else in the game, right? Besides, after the warhound nerf (which came because every Terran player was just massing warhounds and winning games), a bunch of Terrans are going only warhound + thor and still winning. Thors shoot up, by the way. And thors are mech. Also, there's no rule that says you're never allowed to make vikings or marines for light support.
Funny coming from a guy who plays a race that shares upgrade for gateway units and robo, and that always stick to one tech path. What he says is : make the WH a goliath. If you think this is a bad idea then GL playing against the WH in its current state and get your immo/stalkers raped hardcore
I'm sorry you feel that the only way to fix the warhound is to make it worse against some ground and also give it anti-air... which would actually make Protosses *less* likely to ever make air units, not more likely (which is rather interesting, considering you're simultaneously harping on Protosses for not making air in PvT, but that's because of things like vikings and marines that existed in WoL. Blizzard did say that they were trying to make Protoss air more viable for HotS, so I don't see how making another AA beast in PvT would do that.)
Also, last year called: they wanted their invalid upgrade arguments back. Go look at any ancient threads about comparing different race's upgrades for different units, how much armor/ shields/ hp they actually help, etc. Please don't change the subject here.
still not over the aspd nerf of the warhound. The only thing mech needed was a high aspd tanking unit (or a multiple hitter like the banshee) ... one that isn't armored and gets crushed while peeling of immortal shields or tanking zealots, while tank shells go down. I mean missiles are great for breaking immortal shields, but the warhound doesn't feel like its helping the mech composition (only in terms of denying any mechanical unit on the ground). Mostly because it is so fast and has a pretty good range allowing you to kite, something that doesn't really help tanks, as we can witness in tvz, where tanks are the first to fall since the bio has to kite away.
But overall i am confused anyway, since airplay feels less viable in HotS for the toss as well, with a unit missing that can babysit the army and tank alot, while also able to attack over a pretty high range and snipe units fast. The tempest can only do a small fraction of this, though much easier. But going for toss airplay in the lategame feels easier in WoL.
But Mech play works fine without the warhound, as long as you have ghosts for depleting shields. Even on the big maps. The battle hellion really rocks.
Well WoL was great unitwise, so maybe HotS turns out good too. Though i liked the design of every WoL unit, with just a few minor tweaks missing to fill holes in the play of WoL.
a three tech routes ultra-gimmicky endlessly gas-heavy drop play that noone will ever be able to use in pro games gives you hope? then what doesn't?
In the late game this can be stupidly powerful and very useful, it makes storm drops much more reliable as unless they pull drones right away all the drones clump up because they go to the only patches that are mining. I can see how players will try to keep at least one mineral patch open for maximum effect.
To rush this is stupid but as a late game play, why not? Especially considering the speed of the oracle and speed warp prism.
a three tech routes ultra-gimmicky endlessly gas-heavy drop play that noone will ever be able to use in pro games gives you hope? then what doesn't?
Haha... let me clarify, since you took this out of context from the rest of my (long) post.
Upon first seeing how quickly early oracle harass can get shut down, I was unsure if the oracle would ever be useful as an offensive unit past, say, the ten minute mark or so. After all, they're relatively brittle units, and their ability to freeze minerals would become less and less useful as time goes by (because of the threat of defensive AA, the opponent taking more bases, etc.).
I figured that maybe the oracle would centrally become a defensive unit after the early game has ended (unless a Protoss player can pull of an incredibly lucky scouting path and not get shot down).
But then I see this gif, and realize that the oracle may actually have some potential in the late game on the offense in the mineral fields... not by itself, but when warp prisms and high templar are already on the field. (There's no reason to *rush* to do this kind of harassment, but think about Hero doing this with his already-great warp prism harassment.) It's a way to cause your opponent's workers to clump. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Go ask a hellion.
I just think that the new units with multiple abilities have much greater potential when complementing other units... and that we can't only think of them in a vacuum (without other units in a composition). And these types of strategies will emerge over time, and won't only be found in the early game, or in the first month of HotS.
a three tech routes ultra-gimmicky endlessly gas-heavy drop play that noone will ever be able to use in pro games gives you hope? then what doesn't?
Haha... let me clarify, since you took this out of context from the rest of my (long) post.
Upon first seeing how quickly early oracle harass can get shut down, I was unsure if the oracle would ever be useful as an offensive unit past, say, the ten minute mark or so. After all, they're relatively brittle units, and their ability to freeze minerals would become less and less useful as time goes by (because of the threat of defensive AA, the opponent taking more bases, etc.).
I figured that maybe the oracle would centrally become a defensive unit after the early game has ended (unless a Protoss player can pull of an incredibly luck scouting path and not get shot down).
But then I see this gif, and realize that the oracle may actually have some potential in the late game on the offense in the mineral fields... not by itself, but when warp prisms and high templar are already on the field. (There's no reason to *rush* to do this kind of harassment, but think about Hero doing this with his already-great warp prism harassment.) It's a way to cause your opponent's workers to clump. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
I just think that the new units with multiple abilities have much greater potential when complementing other units... and that we can't only think of them in a vacuum (without other units in a composition). And these types of strategies will emerge over time, and won't only be found in the early game, or in the first month of HotS.
I agree with DarkPlasmaBall. All of the new Protoss units look like they need a buff. Giving the MSC a wider purify range would be a good start.
It's odd seeing the projectile of a tempest hit one marine in a bio ball and not damage the ones next to it, given the size of the projectile and the way it looks like when it explodes. That's just cosmetic, but right now the unit is also not balanced to be worth the cost. I say give it splash.
I don't know what to think about the oracle. Maybe replace entomb with an ability that spawns microable, psionic attack units. Anything is preferable to entomb.
As for the warhound, once it is balanced, I think it will be fine. I understand that Protoss loves stalkers and immortals, but these units are too strong against mech for it to be viable. The warhound's trading well with them is what makes mech viable in the matchup. What no one wants to see, however, is mass warhound every game. Sadly, I think that is what blizzard wants; afterall, they stated they wanted it to be a core unit. If Protoss players start opening stargate, then in the meta we will see fewer warhounds, though. Right now they are still fixated on mass stalkers.
So while I think that- at the moment- all of our units were designed with less useful intentions than the Terran and Zerg ones, I'm hoping that we Protoss players can find a way to come up with some ways to make some of our new units useful. (Basically, we need Kiwikaki.) I just think we're really screwed with the current tempest model though.
Or better yet, don't buy the game unless they fix Toss.
The fact that they're not giving us anything other than possibly slightly handy support units should be enough to provoke the outrage of Toss players.
Zerg players and Terran players wouldn't stand for it. Not for a moment. I think it's time for the Ents to rise up and start ruining some shit.
Glad to see the warhound getting nerfed. It seemed like for days that's all anyone was talking about. It's been fun watching the streams and see how the players are experimenting.
The oracle + templar drop sure was cool. But I can't see it working versus a high level player who has decent overlord spread. Unless somehow protoss will revolve more about air control late game?
In bw protoss had corsairs to kill overlords and drops could go unnoticed easier + storm killed almost everything in one hit.
On September 10 2012 01:34 wcr.4fun wrote: The oracle + templar drop sure was cool. But I can't see it working versus a high level player who has decent overlord spread. Unless somehow protoss will revolve more about air control late game?
In bw protoss had corsairs to kill overlords and drops could go unnoticed easier + storm killed almost everything in one hit.
how can protoss achieve air control? in WoL, protoss only gets air control when terran or zerg allows/don't care about it....
Warhounds and mines are godfuckingawful. Mines deal no damage, but still consume supply and resources and Warhounds are mobile siege mode tanks. Blizzard is still missing the point of mech, even after all of the near articles posted about it. Good to feel like the community input matters, right?
On September 10 2012 01:59 AKomrade wrote: Warhounds and mines are godfuckingawful. Mines deal no damage, but still consume supply and resources and Warhounds are mobile siege mode tanks. Blizzard is still missing the point of mech, even after all of the near articles posted about it. Good to feel like the community input matters, right?
that would be colossus. Warhounds are like something between a stalker and an immortal but cheaper.
On September 09 2012 22:57 GregMandel wrote: 1.5 radius ? Holy crap that's small
I don't think you would want to use Dark swar... Uh Blinding cloud over abduct because let's say you want to engage vs marine tank with Muta/Ling/Viper, I'd rather abduct the tanks than use the blinding clouds on the tanks.
Effectively, the cloud will only blind one tank, and so will the abduct, but abduct costs less energy and means a free tank for you.
Trust me, if you don't have Ghosts/High Templars, Vipers are gamebreaking units, both abilities are super strong, and with them, you can crush a lot stronger army. You can pull few units with Abduct, while using Blinding Cloud on everything else, so they can attack.
On September 09 2012 22:57 GregMandel wrote: 1.5 radius ? Holy crap that's small
I don't think you would want to use Dark swar... Uh Blinding cloud over abduct because let's say you want to engage vs marine tank with Muta/Ling/Viper, I'd rather abduct the tanks than use the blinding clouds on the tanks.
Effectively, the cloud will only blind one tank, and so will the abduct, but abduct costs less energy and means a free tank for you.
Trust me, if you don't have Ghosts/High Templars, Vipers are gamebreaking units, both abilities are super strong, and with them, you can crush a lot stronger army. You can pull few units with Abduct, while using Blinding Cloud on everything else, so they can attack.
On September 09 2012 22:57 GregMandel wrote: 1.5 radius ? Holy crap that's small
I don't think you would want to use Dark swar... Uh Blinding cloud over abduct because let's say you want to engage vs marine tank with Muta/Ling/Viper, I'd rather abduct the tanks than use the blinding clouds on the tanks.
Effectively, the cloud will only blind one tank, and so will the abduct, but abduct costs less energy and means a free tank for you.
Trust me, if you don't have Ghosts/High Templars, Vipers are gamebreaking units, both abilities are super strong, and with them, you can crush a lot stronger army. You can pull few units with Abduct, while using Blinding Cloud on everything else, so they can attack.
i'd rather get vikings vs vypers than ghosts
Snipe is better and faster at taking them down. Also. EMP.
Ya know since there was 0 Drone micro, he could've just stormed twice for the same effect. We already know HTs kill things.
I'm okay with non-deathball units, but not when Terran and Zerg get uber deathball units and a billion more midgame options, while Aiur gets a giant shit taken on it.
On September 09 2012 22:57 GregMandel wrote: 1.5 radius ? Holy crap that's small
I don't think you would want to use Dark swar... Uh Blinding cloud over abduct because let's say you want to engage vs marine tank with Muta/Ling/Viper, I'd rather abduct the tanks than use the blinding clouds on the tanks.
Effectively, the cloud will only blind one tank, and so will the abduct, but abduct costs less energy and means a free tank for you.
Trust me, if you don't have Ghosts/High Templars, Vipers are gamebreaking units, both abilities are super strong, and with them, you can crush a lot stronger army. You can pull few units with Abduct, while using Blinding Cloud on everything else, so they can attack.
i'd rather get vikings vs vypers than ghosts
And what will you do when the Zerg get the Corruptors? As other guy said, both Snipe and EMP counter Vipers a lot better and faster than Vikings.
On September 10 2012 04:23 Zion9 wrote: And already begins the TERRAN nerf :D I understand Warhound is OP so no bashing please it's just a fun fact
swarmhost nerf. bc + raven superduperbuffs. but yeah its beta and awesome blizzard tries so many things.
hope they make units like hydras, mutas (in zvt) and toss air also more viable. every T unit is really nice if raven and bc buffs stay in the game. if they take out warhound they could buff tank and widow mine also. but hey, they do a nice job and i hope they continue trying buffing old units and checking them out in the beta.
On September 08 2012 06:40 Aenur wrote: I don't think that the warhounds are nerfed enough. The main problems are their ridiculous fast moving speed, the cost of 2 supply and the abit to high hitpoints. At least two of these points must be changed.
They need to greatly nerf the movespeed. Mech isn't supposed to be fast running around like that. It is supposed to be slow, but can defeat any ground army with the power of siege tanks. You outmaneuver it to win, while Terran positions well to win. Warhounds just roll around and stomp everything now...
On September 08 2012 06:40 Aenur wrote: I don't think that the warhounds are nerfed enough. The main problems are their ridiculous fast moving speed, the cost of 2 supply and the abit to high hitpoints. At least two of these points must be changed.
They need to greatly nerf the movespeed. Mech isn't supposed to be fast running around like that. It is supposed to be slow, but can defeat any ground army with the power of siege tanks. You outmaneuver it to win, while Terran positions well to win. Warhounds just roll around and stomp everything now...
But Blizzard is clearly not aiming to make HOTS like BW mech. I actually kinda like having a fast mech unit that has synergy with the hellions. The warhound might be a uninspired unit but lets face it, there are worse units already in the game. Atleast with the speed it makes it a little more unique, it did seem a little strong though, wonder how it looks after the nerf.
Very very good changes overall. (considering the time frame and such)
I think warhound's movement speed should be 2.25-2.75 or something though.
Tempest should probably get 50 more shields or something. It's damage is kinda reasonable, because if you use it with photon cannons, there's not much weakness vs Terran (mostly just marauder, which isn't common if the terran is going mech)
The biggest problem I have with tempest is that it's a really bland unit (aside from the range), like the hydralisk and corruptor. On that note, another problem is that they seem really weak vs zerg (aside from killing swarm hosts), namely due to the previously mentioned corruptor and hydralisk, and also zerglings (which don't die fast to tempests, and kill ground units like stalkers and photon cannons.
I would highly caution against demanding buffs to all underused abilities after a few days of beta. You will just get a yo-yo effect where they have to get buffed and nerfed constantly based on the frequency of use. Furthermore, nobody is using new units correctly. I get that they are new and we want them to be useful and have a legitimate place in the game, but try to think long-term: the tempest buffs you're proposing now won't seem as amusing anymore when every game devolves into mass tempest. (random example) I remember in the WoL beta they constantly nerfed the brood lord and people kept complaining, since the unit wasn't used so much. Yet now brood lords are still almost too strong.
On September 10 2012 06:44 Nakwa wrote: They made the warhound with only one reason: So they can keep nerfing terran
Oh man, now i can't get out of my head David Kim nerfing the crap outta terrans throwing nerfs like lightnings from his fingertips on a Palpatine's fashion.
Man, I really like the 2.5 Size bio only cloud as it added to ZvZ late game complexity.
Warhounds won't be used in TvZ anymore. Still probably too good vs Stalkers. They need less HP and I would like them to start slower, but have a movespeed buff.
P.S. Swarm Hosts are terrible in ZvZ, they are just a new unit. Its so easy to out manuever them in ZvZ.
I too concur that, if Blizzard designs so many counters to the siege tank, why does the siege tank exist at all?
I was however pleasantly surprised at the swarm host usage, eg. TLO used them in combination with queens, now that was really ironic(?) to see the locusts crack a turtling terran(PainUser).
Not 100% on the warhound yet but would like to see more widow mine usage and see how it stacks up.
wonder if it's possible to use widow mine/siege tank/turret push like the Boxer's Terran in BW(vulture/tank/turret)
On September 10 2012 07:34 Kajarn wrote: Man, I really like the 2.5 Size bio only cloud as it added to ZvZ late game complexity.
Warhounds won't be used in TvZ anymore. Still probably too good vs Stalkers. They need less HP and I would like them to start slower, but have a movespeed buff.
P.S. Swarm Hosts are terrible in ZvZ, they are just a new unit. Its so easy to out manuever them in ZvZ.
The swarm host is a horrible design idea in general. I never liked brood Lord that much but I could cope with it since that was the only one of a kind but now we have this second unit with mobaish characteristics but on ground. And compared to the lurker which makes damage on his own this annoying unit spawns other units which really doesn't serve the purpose of micro intensive direct battles, I'd guess.
I really don't feel like playing BW, as, after so long, you would like to change it up, even if the game is inferior. That said, after watching the game, I find it startling at how bad it is (imo) to watch. I know it doesn't help that the players play at a poor level due to lack of experience, but I get a sense of it doesn't matter much. At this point, I would much prefer that this expansion would simply be BW in 3D, with maybe chrono boost and the other other macro mechanics staying.
This could be the longest beta ever if they are genuinely concerned with balancing this game, while adding enough units for each race to get people to justify buying it. I really wish they would just combine these units with w/e they are planning in the next expansion. It's hard to believe that protoss could be this weak without it being intentional/some grand plan thing. Curious as to what it is, as no one needed to play the beta to know how it would look at this stage. The only x factor was how strong would cloak be if the Oracle had it. Perhaps they couldn't balance it for P vs Z.
Either way, it feels like they are pushing an incomplete game that isn't close to being enjoyable. If you're already planning a third expansion, may as well take that time and release something that isn't half-assed. After 2 years, you simply have to come up with better ideas than this for protoss. I'd like to know who the balance tester for Blizz is that plays toss. A pro team should be calling this guy up and trying to get him to quit. He must be amazing...
On September 08 2012 06:13 gedatsu wrote: Blizz doesn't understand what the problem is with Warhound.
Give it time. They've stated in interviews that they'll often introduce something new during the design process that is blatantly overpowered, and they'll continue to gauge and scale it back until it reaches that "sweet spot." This gives them a great volume of test data, rather than putting something in the game that is too weak and no-one actually tests it.
The changes are better and are going to help hone in on accomplishing other changes, but honestly Blizz hasn't done much to help Protoss at all. The Warhound is still an incredible A-Move unit regardless of the new update. I am beginning to see its point though, that being for Terran to have a decent counter for dealing with Stalker/Sentries and giving Mech some breathing space against Protoss Immortals. But looking at a lot of videos and listening to a lot of feedback from streams, it's way too easy for Terran to rock the shit out of Protoss the entire game. Protoss has to be exceptionally good in Macro to keep knocking heads with Terran every single encounter, which I'm fine with to an extent. However, when it's apparent that Protoss can barely make it out of their base at the 12 Minute mark, somethings need addressing. Regardless, I feel that the Goliath with some balanced design tweaks for Multiplayer could be so much better for balancing PvT and Terran Mech options in the matchup.
The real problem with Stargate in PvT is that Marines are simply too good versus Stargate units, all of which have no AoE to actual fight the Marines cost-effectively. Stimmed Marines are even worse because they can move faster and kill faster. You might think Vikings are the bain of Stargate, but Phoenix can actually kick the crud out of Vikings if you micro them and keep up with upgrades. The Oracle just doesn't do enough for how much it costs Protoss and it's too damn fragile to feel comfortable with the tech-paths/opportunities it opens. The Tempest is just too slow and weak (though I'm very surprised how durable it turned out to be) to be used cost-effectively. It simply lacks power for what it is and really isn't worth the Stargate tech nor the investment to Stargate.
I would talk about PvZ, but because Zerg in general is extremely wacky right now in HotS, I feel I need a LOT more time to analyze it.
Such an incredible sink of time and minerals and gas to get even one of these units out. Would love to see the upgrade come as standard would be the first move in a right direction for this unit.
On September 10 2012 09:38 inFeZa wrote: I think the tempest is kinda fun and great to use right now, i find it kinda needed to get when you see swarmhosts slwoly eating away at your units.
Such an incredible sink of time and minerals and gas to get even one of these units out. Would love to see the upgrade come as standard would be the first move in a right direction for this unit.
I was thinking the same thing. It makes no sense to have the increased range as an upgrade, since the Tempest is completely useless without it. But after thinking about it longer, I realized that the change should be more drastic.
Very simply: the Tempest is not a capital ship. It's role is merely to poke units and annoy a player enough to eventually force them into action. This is not the kind of unit that one finds at the end of a tech tree. Not at all.
I believe it would be better to just make the Tempest into a normal stargate unit, no fleet beacon required. Scale everything down: the size, cost, you name it. Give it like 15 range. And then it has a clear role as an annoying unit during the mid game. Then you can have it's upgrade on the Fleet Beacon still, in order for it to go all the way up to 22 range and (hopefully) become more useful lategame.
And then everyone wins because the Carrier returns to it's rightful place as the true Protoss capital ship. (and it would obviously get a buff for the first time ever, since it needs one)
HOTS, like WOL is still a deathball vs. deathball based game and in that context it does not make a lot of sense to build a 6 food extremely high tech unit that does less DPS than 6 probes. It is just wasted food in a deathball fight and will cause you to lose games if you build it.
On September 08 2012 06:13 gedatsu wrote: Blizz doesn't understand what the problem is with Warhound.
Give it time. They've stated in interviews that they'll often introduce something new during the design process that is blatantly overpowered, and they'll continue to gauge and scale it back until it reaches that "sweet spot." This gives them a great volume of test data, rather than putting something in the game that is too weak and no-one actually tests it.
That's the point, Dox. The issues with the Warhound aren't just about its power. The entire role it is designed to play is problematic.
On September 08 2012 06:27 purakushi wrote: I don't understand why they would decrease preordain from 2 minute to 1 minute. That is the only thing that gives tempests a chance to attack from long range (observers are easy to snipe, since they have to stay there). I guess they really do not want the tempest to work. lol
Pre-ordain gave me for a long period of time huge amounts of intel of which units were spawning from the hive for example which is incredible useful to react what the Zerg is producing. I can really see why they nerfed it. I also successful have won games by putting preordain on a factory along other production facilities for the terran so I knew for 2 full minutes what they were building was really handy. I think the nerf is reasonable as I actually thought that spell is, at the moment very underutilized but very powerful.
Yeah, too bad pre-ordain doesn't tell you what is spawning from the larvae.
Thanks for your input, though.
Imo, the spell is next to useless because more often than not you know what your opponent is building or researching ANYway. It's never going to be a wide range of things, especially late game. If you see a barracks with a tech lab, you pretty much know what he's building - same goes for factory with reactor or factory with tech lab. Pre-ordain is mostly for vision... which could be granted with an observer.
On September 10 2012 06:44 Nakwa wrote: They made the warhound with only one reason: So they can keep nerfing terran
A little off topic, but I never really understood why Terran players complained about their so called massive nerfs.
Did you ever bother to look at all the nerfs that Protoss has accumulated?
The nerfs that occurred in the beta were insane, so I won't go there. I'll name a few just to give you an idea. Warpgate researched in 60 seconds (yes, I admit that that was op. You could do us the courtesy of admitting that T was op as well.)
But I supposed the WoL Beta is irrelevant so I'll move right into the good stuff.
KA was removed. Flux vanes was removed. Storm radius was decreased (That may have been WoL beta, I forgot). Blink research time was increased. Warpgate research time was increased (again). Pylon radius was decreased.
So tell me, how do your "nerfs" (stim research time increased oh noez) compare to what happened to Toss?
The fact is, David Kim and Dustin Browder have hard-ons for Terran. The truth of the matter is that they made the Winhound so that Protoss would be an even shittier race.
On September 10 2012 07:03 Duncaaaaaan wrote: I fear the warhound will be pretty useless now that so much DPS has been taken off it. It's a failed unit.
That's rather dramatic. The dps nerf is not THAT massive, so I doubt a unit will go from dominating a match up - and let me tell you, PvT is damn near impossible - to being "pretty useless."
Don't worry, your new terran toy is still gonna be ridiculous.
On September 10 2012 11:36 Elvin wrote: Why don't they just increase warhounds supply to 3 and decrease siege tank supply cost to 2?
I have always wondered why is SC2 siege tank (which is even worse than BW tank) 3 supply and 150/125 instead of 2 supply and 150/100
Siege tanks for 2 supply would devestate zerg. Siege tanks are good vs zerg, no matter what any terran says they are good vs zerg. The only time they aren't good vs zerg is when it's late game and there are broodlords and what not. You have to think of more then one match up, tvz tanks are already good, if they were 2 supply they would be rediculously good in that match up. While it may fix tvp mech (i don't know) it would just make tvz bad.
On September 10 2012 11:36 Elvin wrote: Why don't they just increase warhounds supply to 3 and decrease siege tank supply cost to 2?
I have always wondered why is SC2 siege tank (which is even worse than BW tank) 3 supply and 150/125 instead of 2 supply and 150/100
Siege tanks for 2 supply would devestate zerg. Siege tanks are good vs zerg, no matter what any terran says they are good vs zerg. The only time they aren't good vs zerg is when it's late game and there are broodlords and what not. You have to think of more then one match up, tvz tanks are already good, if they were 2 supply they would be rediculously good in that match up. While it may fix tvp mech (i don't know) it would just make tvz bad.
If STs would be 2 population, we would have some ridiculous things like Hydras and Roaches being 1 population, Ultras being 4 population etc.
On September 10 2012 11:36 Elvin wrote: Why don't they just increase warhounds supply to 3 and decrease siege tank supply cost to 2?
I have always wondered why is SC2 siege tank (which is even worse than BW tank) 3 supply and 150/125 instead of 2 supply and 150/100
Siege tanks for 2 supply would devestate zerg. Siege tanks are good vs zerg, no matter what any terran says they are good vs zerg. The only time they aren't good vs zerg is when it's late game and there are broodlords and what not. You have to think of more then one match up, tvz tanks are already good, if they were 2 supply they would be rediculously good in that match up. While it may fix tvp mech (i don't know) it would just make tvz bad.
If STs would be 2 population, we would have some ridiculous things like Hydras and Roaches being 1 population, Ultras being 4 population etc.
Is that a bad thing? Zerg used to be the race of 1 or 1/2 supply massable units. Not all this high supply, tanky mid-tier stuff. Bring on more powerful tanks. You can always balance other things by adding overkill for instance.
I think Blizzard should increase the speed of the widow mine to something like the hellion otherwise it's useless . It's slow as hell from what i've seen and hardly a thread if your opponent sees where it burrows .
On September 10 2012 11:36 Elvin wrote: Why don't they just increase warhounds supply to 3 and decrease siege tank supply cost to 2?
I have always wondered why is SC2 siege tank (which is even worse than BW tank) 3 supply and 150/125 instead of 2 supply and 150/100
Siege tanks for 2 supply would devestate zerg. Siege tanks are good vs zerg, no matter what any terran says they are good vs zerg. The only time they aren't good vs zerg is when it's late game and there are broodlords and what not. You have to think of more then one match up, tvz tanks are already good, if they were 2 supply they would be rediculously good in that match up. While it may fix tvp mech (i don't know) it would just make tvz bad.
If STs would be 2 population, we would have some ridiculous things like Hydras and Roaches being 1 population, Ultras being 4 population etc.
Is that a bad thing? Zerg used to be the race of 1 or 1/2 supply massable units. Not all this high supply, tanky mid-tier stuff. Bring on more powerful tanks. You can always balance other things by adding overkill for instance.
It wasn't a bad thing in SC BW, but in SC2, units are different. Zerg used to be race of units that cost 1 or 1/2 supply when their units weren't that strong and because of that they were coming in great numbers. Same can be said for Zerglings in SC2, but not for Roaches that have tons of HP, low dps but really good focus fire, and are quite fast when upgraded. The whole concept of SC2 Zerg needs to be changed if you want again to mass units that cost 1 supply. Units need to be weaker, stat wise, Roaches have almost the same stats as Zealots or Stalkers, they almost feel like Protoss unit. The only reason why they feel like Zerg units is because they are quite fast and massable even though they are 2 supply. Roaches are way too strong for 1 supply, if you want 1 supply Roaches, you have to nerf them to compensate for the buff. I am all for it, but Blizzard won't do that, because they would have to completely change the Roach, or heavily nerf the stats.
And yes, I am all for buffing Tanks and adding overkill because not having overkill completely contradicts how Tanks should be countered and played. It was the most retarded change ever. But buff them differently, not through the supply, because you have to buff other units to compensate, and that is a lot of units.
all those things were repeated to death since the WOL beta, and guess what? nothing has changed, i don't care anymore, i will play this game for what it is, a bad BW sequel
On September 10 2012 19:16 Garmer wrote: all those things was repeated to death since the WOL beta, and guess what? nothing has changed, i don't care anymore, i will play this game for what it is, a bad BW sequel
I don't care if it was repeated a lot, now is the time they can actually change it.
Tanks need to be better. They get rolled by everything, period.
They have to nerf the warhound into the ground, to the point where it is only is better than bio if the bio is controlled real poorly. A flat unit like the warhound will never be able to be used together with dynamic bio play, it is going to be either or. Then it would become a skill baseline for terran; "If your micro sucks harder than this, build warhounds".
On September 10 2012 19:16 Garmer wrote: all those things was repeated to death since the WOL beta, and guess what? nothing has changed, i don't care anymore, i will play this game for what it is, a bad BW sequel
I don't care if it was repeated a lot, now is the time they can actually change it.
Tanks need to be better. They get rolled by everything, period.
see, you lose credibility when you say this, its just not true. They're bad vs Protoss, but great in both other matchups, we've been seeing top level Terrans using tanks consistently in TvZ and TvT, sprouting rubbish about them doesn't help anyone.
What saddens me is that Blizzard is still working around the same basic concepts that were presented during Blizzcon. I'm not even going to discuss the fact that all the HotS units are are a bad copy of BW units. The fact is that these are pretty much the only units that Blizzard has ever shown to the public.
It is very discouraging to see that these unit concepts have evolved so little and are simply being hammered down until they fit into the game. I no longer expect to see the Warhound being reinvented or new units being tested; we will be force-fed these units.
I would really like to see more experimentation, more unit concepts, more ideas and creativity. Unfortunately that is not Blizzard's mindset. Moreover, TL doesn't allow open discussions about new units and concepts which is peculiar, to say the least.
No Tempest change lol. Such a trash and uninteresting unit. WH could also use some additional tuning I believe, but I understand they don't want to be too brash with their changes out of the gate.
On September 11 2012 02:31 Moonsalt wrote: God, I hate the swarm host, it's going to kill ZvZ and it will be such a stupid match-up...
agreed zerg doesnt even need more anti-ground options.
zerg doesnt need a siegetank too. zerg wasnt designed to have a siegetank
Please blizzard think of another unit to add to zerg. Honestly I think zerg needs a ranged anti-light unit now to hopefully deal with hellion/marines. Possibly at tier2. And anti-light lurker seems all too fitting now.
well all im going to say from someone whos watching far too much of this shit is . . . its more death ball than ever before and way too fucking confusing. Serious, when these games get to late games i think its a mess. WOL it wasnt too bad, there are too many units now. this is even worse ZvT
On September 11 2012 04:21 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: So does this patch mean that the blinding cloud of the viper which actually works on planetary fortress.... is an intended mechanism? O_o
On September 11 2012 04:21 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: So does this patch mean that the blinding cloud of the viper which actually works on planetary fortress.... is an intended mechanism? O_o
Does it work? Holy shit that would be awesome
well i saw it on CatZ stream, he killed a planetary with like 7 roaches, it did not fire back because of a viper cloud he kept casting on it :o
i asked thorzain on the chat of his stream and he confirmed xD
On September 11 2012 02:31 Moonsalt wrote: God, I hate the swarm host, it's going to kill ZvZ and it will be such a stupid match-up...
agreed zerg doesnt even need more anti-ground options.
zerg doesnt need a siegetank too. zerg wasnt designed to have a siegetank
Please blizzard think of another unit to add to zerg. Honestly I think zerg needs a ranged anti-light unit now to hopefully deal with hellion/marines. Possibly at tier2. And anti-light lurker seems all too fitting now.
On September 10 2012 22:43 Warpish wrote: What saddens me is that Blizzard is still working around the same basic concepts that were presented during Blizzcon. I'm not even going to discuss the fact that all the HotS units are are a bad copy of BW units. The fact is that these are pretty much the only units that Blizzard has ever shown to the public.
It is very discouraging to see that these unit concepts have evolved so little and are simply being hammered down until they fit into the game. I no longer expect to see the Warhound being reinvented or new units being tested; we will be force-fed these units.
I would really like to see more experimentation, more unit concepts, more ideas and creativity. Unfortunately that is not Blizzard's mindset. Moreover, TL doesn't allow open discussions about new units and concepts which is peculiar, to say the least.
On September 10 2012 22:43 Warpish wrote: What saddens me is that Blizzard is still working around the same basic concepts that were presented during Blizzcon. I'm not even going to discuss the fact that all the HotS units are are a bad copy of BW units. The fact is that these are pretty much the only units that Blizzard has ever shown to the public.
It is very discouraging to see that these unit concepts have evolved so little and are simply being hammered down until they fit into the game. I no longer expect to see the Warhound being reinvented or new units being tested; we will be force-fed these units.
I would really like to see more experimentation, more unit concepts, more ideas and creativity. Unfortunately that is not Blizzard's mindset. Moreover, TL doesn't allow open discussions about new units and concepts which is peculiar, to say the least.
? really? If true, I find that peculiar too
Why should TL allow such discussions? They're not going anywhere. It's not like Blizzard is sifting through the TL forum hoping that someone will post that perfect unit concept that they can implement.
If you want to discuss unit ideas, there are plenty of places to do that. It doesn't need to happen here. It's just not productive.
On September 10 2012 22:43 Warpish wrote: I would really like to see more experimentation, more unit concepts, more ideas and creativity. Unfortunately that is not Blizzard's mindset. Moreover, TL doesn't allow open discussions about new units and concepts which is peculiar, to say the least.
? really? If true, I find that peculiar too
I think the problem there is that it's all too easy to suggest new units and concepts, but very few of those will be good, and even less of those will actually get back to Blizzard and be implemented. And with threads like those, they have very little "worth" unless they get implemented, whereas other threads like strategy discussions or talking about a pro's gameplay are useful regardless of a Blizzard response.
On September 10 2012 22:43 Warpish wrote: What saddens me is that Blizzard is still working around the same basic concepts that were presented during Blizzcon. I'm not even going to discuss the fact that all the HotS units are are a bad copy of BW units. The fact is that these are pretty much the only units that Blizzard has ever shown to the public.
It is very discouraging to see that these unit concepts have evolved so little and are simply being hammered down until they fit into the game. I no longer expect to see the Warhound being reinvented or new units being tested; we will be force-fed these units.
I would really like to see more experimentation, more unit concepts, more ideas and creativity. Unfortunately that is not Blizzard's mindset. Moreover, TL doesn't allow open discussions about new units and concepts which is peculiar, to say the least.
I think TL gladly welcomes new idea discussing threads, however they hold them to very high standards. They probably have to be very specific: targeting a precise problem, with a precise idea of how, where and when it would function, and you would have to be someone with a good reputation or have another way to put weight behind your opinion. And the OP itself would have to be written in a very organized manner.
This is my guess because they surely wouldn't want your random gold player get a random idea, start a thread with no work behind it with a OP like "Wouldn´t it be cool if larvae could shoot lasers!". Then we wouldn't be any better than Dustin Browder, and that is what put us in this awkward situation to begin with.
On September 11 2012 02:36 kaokentake wrote: agreed zerg doesnt even need more anti-ground options.
zerg doesnt need a siegetank too. zerg wasnt designed to have a siegetank
I disagree. Well actually if Zerg got an actual siege-tank variant (like a Baneling launcher) then I'd agree with you. But the Swarm Host isn't a direct-fire unit like that. If you have sufficient defenses you can kill all the locusts without them doing any damage.
The real role is to pressure the enemy to stop turtling and move out to engage the Zerg on his own terms, or suffer an ever-increasing barrage of locusts. Zerg in WoL don't have that luxury, and the only cost-efficient option even against someone who you have an advantage against is to tech to midgame. Swarm Hosts offer another midgame option.
I like it, especially the stunning reasoning modify, hopefully we'll see it get more use, the viper is so amazing imo, it should become a significant device.
from what i've seen in tvt lately, mass warhounds loses to mass marauder... I don't understand why people keep making warhounds and battlehellions but refuse to add siegetanks.. siegetanks is the thing that should counter roaches and marauders, warhounds and battlehellions should be the meatshield just like vultures and goliaths were in bw..
On September 11 2012 02:36 kaokentake wrote: agreed zerg doesnt even need more anti-ground options.
zerg doesnt need a siegetank too. zerg wasnt designed to have a siegetank
The real role is to pressure the enemy to stop turtling and move out to engage the Zerg on his own terms, or suffer an ever-increasing barrage of locusts.
The most effect response I've seen to them being used offensively is just to counter attack their base, the unborrow, move forward, burrow, spawn units and kill stuff in a area is rather slow in base trade situtations and they aren't quick at getting back to defend. As long as you have afew siege tanks+marines in bunkers/cannons+stalkers/afew spawnhosts+spine crawlers to hold them off for awhile you should always come out ahead.
EPT
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into oblivion for all I care 
unit.
