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On August 15 2012 03:06 LgNKami wrote:Everyone shat on the carrier and most people still do. Blizzard removes that carrier from HotS, now everyone wants the carrier back... but no one uses it.
In TvP, even if the Warhound is not considered a "Mech" Unit (even though the description of it is clearly "Mechanical"), it is an excellent replacement to the useless Thor in TvP. You can make as many Thors as you want in TvP, but you will die to Templar and Chargelots. Thors have energy whereas the Warhound does not, so they will not lose half of their health to a single Feedback. You can get out 3-4 Warhounds on 1 base to hold off a cheesy Blink Stalker all in, but can you get out 3-4 thors? No. They take far too long to build and in small numbers will not do the job of handling blink stalkers, even if you mass repair them. If you get 3-4 warhounds, you will more than likely be able to also get out a Siege Tank or 2 to accompany them. Hell, you could probably get out a few marauders and do just as well to help the Warhounds hold off shit like that.
So they're good because they are strong ? Nice design there.
Also for the carrier case - not the same people complained, and most of the people (me including) complained that it was weaked and never buffed in any way and that they took it out without ever trying to change it. No one "shat" on it.
On August 15 2012 03:02 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 02:54 ArcticRaven wrote:On August 15 2012 02:50 Gfire wrote:
I don't know why people say the Warhound is an a-move unit. Even it's basic attack requires as much micro as a unit like an immortal, but you also have a greater variance in effectiveness you can achieve due to the haywire missiles. You'll need to control them carefully to make sure that you are in range of a mech unit at all times, and moreso to optimally focus fire units. It's essentially twice as complex as most regular units. Yeah well - Focus firing isn't very micro intensive. don't know what you're talking about, but focus firing is extremely micro intensive. In fact, it is so intensive that most people 1-a and micro position instead of focus firing in fear of screwing up.
At your level maybe. Hell, I focus fired when I was silver. It's not hard to do, and anyway, Haywire is auto cast, so it's a unit that doesn't even reward focus firing. Ridiculous.
that was a horrible analogy, i'm sorry. if you micro marauder vs marauder perfectly you'll end up with 10 marauders at 6 hp left and 10 dead marauders.
Not unless the opponent plays with both hands. And even then....
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On August 15 2012 03:32 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 03:28 iky43210 wrote:On August 15 2012 03:26 sAsImre wrote:On August 15 2012 03:26 iky43210 wrote:On August 15 2012 03:25 sAsImre wrote:On August 15 2012 03:21 iky43210 wrote:On August 15 2012 03:12 sAsImre wrote:On August 15 2012 03:07 iky43210 wrote:On August 15 2012 02:57 sAsImre wrote:On August 15 2012 02:53 iky43210 wrote:
[quote]
Its really a bothersome replying to split up quotes, but don't ever underestimate the micro it needs to fire haywire every 6 seconds. Mouseover selection and accuracy is definitely something not to be underestimated, especially when you have to do it for every single warhound you produced.
I gave you a reason why pure battlehellion/warhound won't work if you produce them purely. Because you are still not going to beat the late game firepower of the protoss units without having massive aoe dmg of your own. Not a god damn chance. your units is going to melt in the face of protoss late game without tank support
Why don't you go find a terran/protoss, and go see how awesome your battlehellion/warhound composition fair against late game protoss. Have fun
and there is nothing wrong with marauders. Did marauders make terran bio 1-a or made them not micro intensive? Last I check Terran is still an incredibly APM intensive race regardless of having marauders or not Maybe up to gm it'd be considered as micro but for ppl who played bw it's just a huge joke... mouse accuracy is miles harder in ghosts/ht battles.... but you're still going to have ghosts/ht battles or tanks/ht battles. If you have 6 warhounds, that is 6 haywire per rounds, or equivalent of 60 APM to control haywires perfectly. I'd say that is quite taxing if you want to manually control them perfectly. Considering the match up we're talking about in less than 10s the battle is finished anyway once you engage. you've to do it twice and you'd just use smart casting since 30 dmg isn't going to kill anything mechanical, which is like 5apm for a group of 10 warhound... There is really 0 need to control them individually no battle is ever less than 10s. Unless you ram your army into siegelines Immortal shield is 100, so that would require 3-4 haywire shots to deplete them so your tanks can actually do dmg. Or kill a few sentries / colossus. Haywire is nothing to scuff at. and I don't get where you get 5apm from, but I see Blizzard envision warhound as the mech's answer to immortal and blink stalkers all-in. Tanks will still play a huge role on the matchup (assuming mech becomes viable) nice fail on the maths, it'd take 10 missile to deplete an immortal shield, something so stupid when you've emp on the ghost... which already deals with the ht/sentries/archons, letting on target of choice, colossi who you'd want to one shot if you come close enough which requires 12warhounds, whom you're not going to use individually. It's just one button that you'd use every 6seconds for your warhound squad, hurray that's micro intensive XD haywire bypass immortal harden shield, because it is a spell. You're not going to magically pop out ghost anytime soon, not until late game, when you go mech route. Watch Hack play and come back. Ghosts destroy half of P units, it's just stupid to not use them. I don't even know what the fuck you're talking about anymore. Since when was the last time mech was actually used against protoss in high level of game play? (beside some obscure all-in timing, which are also all figured out). Realistically you can't and won't have the facilities to produce a strong mech force AND ghosts in early or mid game. HOTS won't change that, due to different tech and production facilities. Ghosts may/will be used in HOTS, but they won't appear until late mid game when you go mech route Hack vs Lure, Hack vs Creator the TSL4 qualifier that Creator won. You don't know what you're talking about that's all since you don't have the necessary resources to continue this discussion
necessary resources for what? not watching a QUALIFIER? come back when you have better arguments, instead of making a fool of yourself talking about making ghosts in early mech army
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On August 15 2012 02:40 CaptainCrush wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 02:36 TheRealNanMan wrote:On August 15 2012 02:26 johnnywup wrote:
it's just a marauder built out of a factory...has to go Pretty much sums it up... Let's give a marauder a bigger suit more damage vs mech(Wait isn't all of protoss mech? No they still have Zealots! Oh good at least protoss will be able to do something vs this new "mech" ....Don't forget you've got battle hellions to deal with those annoying zealots >_>) Of course everything could change since the game is still in Alpha but it looks like they are just saying here Terran you get to play with a 1A deathball now >_< I can only hope that things will change by beta and the final release. More protoss complaining... The warhound cannot shoot air, is not massive (you still have phoenix) and you get this new awesome airship that can shoot 22 range. Even if you dont currently like the DPS or whatever on the tempest, it can change quite a bit before launch. I highly doubt that the warhound will ever get an air attack. It may change the way you play the matchup but even that goes towards what you guys want in a new and different game. Seriously guys, try the HOTS custom map. I cannot stress enough how inaccurate most of these complaints are.
I have tried out the HOTS custom map and enjoyed messing around with the new units since I play Random this isn't simply "More Protoss Complaining" I'm just stating my thoughts from what I've seen with the custom map and the battle report that a "mech" death ball is very probably vs toss. I've faced it even with the help of tempest it is difficult to deal with. I've used this style against toss and laugh as they BM me for it 
We'll see how things change come beta and relase I just hope they stick with the idea of working away from the Death Ball not creating a new one for terran...
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necessary resources for what? not watching a QUALIFIER? come back when you have better arguments, instead of making a fool of yourself talking about making ghosts in early mech army
Well. You asked him for a relevant match and he gave you one.
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On August 15 2012 03:18 LgNKami wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 03:12 transcendent one wrote:
LgNkami you have no idea what you're talking about.
the Warhound looks extremely boring, and its stats are soooo much better than 2 marines (the same supply) that it's not even funny. it's the most effective unit as of now vs ground (not just mechanical, everything.). there would be no reason to build anything vs ground than warhounds and tanks, and since you don't have to micro warhounds i guess people wouldn't be using tanks. right now it is a marauder with ridiculous stats for the same supply.
if they nerf it, it will be an unit with normal stats, that is boring and looks bad. THE UNIT IS NOT COMPLETE! do you not understand that? It is not complete.
you can use that argument for EVERYTHING. do you not understand that? for everything in hots.
all we can argue about is what we see now in the videos, and in those warhound is a huge ass fail.
lets look at (dps*health)/(cost*supply) to get an indication how powerful an unit is (its not even accurate, because armor and gas-mineral differences and build time are not considered, but those would change the the value to make the warhound better.
the value for some units:
warhound vs non mechanical: 8,64 vs mechanical 11,09
thor: 6.25
stalker: 4,43
roach: 5,8
immortal vs armored: 7,39
non stim marine: 7 stimmed marine: 10,5
stimmed marauder vs armored: 10
so its almost the same effectiveness wise as stimmed marines and marauders, while it doesn't need medivacs, it has longer range, is much tankier, and it is more effective than stimmed mm vs anything not roach or ultra. they also have much higher base speed than marines or marauders. they can also be stack healed with scvs. they are also very good vs area of effect attacks, the biggest weakness of mm. they also scale better than marines with damage upgrades, and additionally stimmed marines are less effective vs 1 or more base armored units than warhound vs non mechanical.. and they have instant ability (depending on the range of the missile spell).
so the basic idea is: an unit with retardedly good stats.
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On August 15 2012 03:37 ArcticRaven wrote:Show nested quote +necessary resources for what? not watching a QUALIFIER? come back when you have better arguments, instead of making a fool of yourself talking about making ghosts in early mech army Well. You asked him for a relevant match and he gave you one.
those matches even make me feel that mech could be used as a greedy opening (it straight up dies to some timings as Hack does it) if you're able to deal properly with the P midgame. But it seems way harder to play in order to just say fuck off to zealot warpins :D
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On August 15 2012 03:39 transcendent one wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 03:18 LgNKami wrote:On August 15 2012 03:12 transcendent one wrote:
LgNkami you have no idea what you're talking about.
the Warhound looks extremely boring, and its stats are soooo much better than 2 marines (the same supply) that it's not even funny. it's the most effective unit as of now vs ground (not just mechanical, everything.). there would be no reason to build anything vs ground than warhounds and tanks, and since you don't have to micro warhounds i guess people wouldn't be using tanks. right now it is a marauder with ridiculous stats for the same supply.
if they nerf it, it will be an unit with normal stats, that is boring and looks bad. THE UNIT IS NOT COMPLETE! do you not understand that? It is not complete. all we can argue about is what we see now in the videos, and in those warhound is a huge ass fail.
There's no need for stats to see that adding a second marauder is stupid.
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I'm a big fan of it. Ever since the Goliath went the way of the Dodo, mech hasn't had a general purpose, damage dealing unit in its mech line (you'd think Thor, but it's super expensive and slow, and definitely not designed to be anything more than a supporting unit). Between battle hellion, warhound, and widow mine, mech is finally gonna be a fleshed out tech level, rather than relegated to some support roles outside TvT.
Probably my favourite part is that Terran will finally by able to directly engage the Protoss on even grounds, regardless of the stage of the game. No more running around avoiding some big ball of doom while trying to do damage via guerrilla tactics (though the option to do so will still be there, which is cool). We now will have an option to actually tech up and fight tech vs. tech head-on.
On August 15 2012 03:40 ArcticRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 03:39 transcendent one wrote:On August 15 2012 03:18 LgNKami wrote:On August 15 2012 03:12 transcendent one wrote:
LgNkami you have no idea what you're talking about.
the Warhound looks extremely boring, and its stats are soooo much better than 2 marines (the same supply) that it's not even funny. it's the most effective unit as of now vs ground (not just mechanical, everything.). there would be no reason to build anything vs ground than warhounds and tanks, and since you don't have to micro warhounds i guess people wouldn't be using tanks. right now it is a marauder with ridiculous stats for the same supply.
if they nerf it, it will be an unit with normal stats, that is boring and looks bad. THE UNIT IS NOT COMPLETE! do you not understand that? It is not complete. all we can argue about is what we see now in the videos, and in those warhound is a huge ass fail. There's no need for stats to see that adding a second marauder is stupid.
If you think the warhound is nothing more than a second marauder, I feel bad for you.
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On August 15 2012 03:41 iamcaustic wrote:
I'm a big fan of it. Ever since the Goliath went the way of the Dodo, mech hasn't had a general purpose, damage dealing unit in its mech line (you'd think Thor, but it's super expensive and slow, and definitely not designed to be anything more than a supporting unit). Between battle hellion, warhound, and widow mine, mech is finally gonna be a fleshed out tech level, rather than relegated to some support roles outside TvT.
Probably my favourite part is that Terran will finally by able to directly engage the Protoss on even grounds, regardless of the stage of the game. No more running around avoiding some big ball of doom while trying to do damage via guerrilla tactics (though the option to do so will still be there, which is cool). We now will have an option to actually tech up and fight tech vs. tech head-on.
Taeja and top T disagree. You can engage head on nowadays, if you're good enough. (which is the case of 0 ppl on those forums I think :D)
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On August 15 2012 03:33 ArcticRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 03:06 LgNKami wrote:Everyone shat on the carrier and most people still do. Blizzard removes that carrier from HotS, now everyone wants the carrier back... but no one uses it.
In TvP, even if the Warhound is not considered a "Mech" Unit (even though the description of it is clearly "Mechanical"), it is an excellent replacement to the useless Thor in TvP. You can make as many Thors as you want in TvP, but you will die to Templar and Chargelots. Thors have energy whereas the Warhound does not, so they will not lose half of their health to a single Feedback. You can get out 3-4 Warhounds on 1 base to hold off a cheesy Blink Stalker all in, but can you get out 3-4 thors? No. They take far too long to build and in small numbers will not do the job of handling blink stalkers, even if you mass repair them. If you get 3-4 warhounds, you will more than likely be able to also get out a Siege Tank or 2 to accompany them. Hell, you could probably get out a few marauders and do just as well to help the Warhounds hold off shit like that. So they're good because they are strong ? Nice design there. Also for the carrier case - not the same people complained, and most of the people (me including) complained that it was weaked and never buffed in any way and that they took it out without ever trying to change it. No one "shat" on it. Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 03:02 iky43210 wrote:On August 15 2012 02:54 ArcticRaven wrote:On August 15 2012 02:50 Gfire wrote:
I don't know why people say the Warhound is an a-move unit. Even it's basic attack requires as much micro as a unit like an immortal, but you also have a greater variance in effectiveness you can achieve due to the haywire missiles. You'll need to control them carefully to make sure that you are in range of a mech unit at all times, and moreso to optimally focus fire units. It's essentially twice as complex as most regular units. Yeah well - Focus firing isn't very micro intensive. don't know what you're talking about, but focus firing is extremely micro intensive. In fact, it is so intensive that most people 1-a and micro position instead of focus firing in fear of screwing up. At your level maybe. Hell, I focus fired when I was silver. It's not hard to do, and anyway, Haywire is auto cast, so it's a unit that doesn't even reward focus firing. Ridiculous. Show nested quote +that was a horrible analogy, i'm sorry. if you micro marauder vs marauder perfectly you'll end up with 10 marauders at 6 hp left and 10 dead marauders. Not unless the opponent plays with both hands. And even then....
They're better in TvP over the Thor because they dont lose half of their health to a spell, they dont require a armory, they're faster, less clunky, aren't hard countered by mass immortals. Anything else? Sure, they're strong, but on their own they are pretty weak so you cant just mass them. If you're terran, just dont make them if you dont like them. If you're zerg, you shouldnt even consider talking about them considering the fact that they would be used vs you. If you're toss, better start using the stargate...
As far as auto-casting, you can disable it... Just like you can disable charge auto-cast...
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On August 15 2012 03:43 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 03:41 iamcaustic wrote:
I'm a big fan of it. Ever since the Goliath went the way of the Dodo, mech hasn't had a general purpose, damage dealing unit in its mech line (you'd think Thor, but it's super expensive and slow, and definitely not designed to be anything more than a supporting unit). Between battle hellion, warhound, and widow mine, mech is finally gonna be a fleshed out tech level, rather than relegated to some support roles outside TvT.
Probably my favourite part is that Terran will finally by able to directly engage the Protoss on even grounds, regardless of the stage of the game. No more running around avoiding some big ball of doom while trying to do damage via guerrilla tactics (though the option to do so will still be there, which is cool). We now will have an option to actually tech up and fight tech vs. tech head-on. Taeja and top T disagree. You can engage head on nowadays, if you're good enough. (which is the case of 0 ppl on those forums I think :D)
You can engage head-on only after you've crippled the Protoss enough with guerrilla tactics that you have a significant supply advantage, or if you manage to get the Protoss to split up his army from all the multi-pronged harassment.
There are a lot of conditionals to that.
Edit: Also, even if we take your words at face-value, just how good does one have to be to be able to engage head-on if no one on these forums is good enough? We have pro-players, semi-pros, and a plethora of Masters-level players on these forums. Simply being in Masters puts one in the top 5% of players in their respective region. By default, what you're saying is impossible for at least 95% of the StarCraft community, and very likely more than that. That's kind of stupid.
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Yeah, they're better because they're stronger is what you're saying. And for that autocasting thing - I don't see your point. Why should any pro impress us with his great micro of Haywire (lol) when he can just use autocast on the right units automatically ?
If you think the warhound is nothing more than a second marauder, I feel bad for you.
It hits harder and has more range. Such a great, innovative design.
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On August 15 2012 03:47 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 03:43 sAsImre wrote:On August 15 2012 03:41 iamcaustic wrote:
I'm a big fan of it. Ever since the Goliath went the way of the Dodo, mech hasn't had a general purpose, damage dealing unit in its mech line (you'd think Thor, but it's super expensive and slow, and definitely not designed to be anything more than a supporting unit). Between battle hellion, warhound, and widow mine, mech is finally gonna be a fleshed out tech level, rather than relegated to some support roles outside TvT.
Probably my favourite part is that Terran will finally by able to directly engage the Protoss on even grounds, regardless of the stage of the game. No more running around avoiding some big ball of doom while trying to do damage via guerrilla tactics (though the option to do so will still be there, which is cool). We now will have an option to actually tech up and fight tech vs. tech head-on. Taeja and top T disagree. You can engage head on nowadays, if you're good enough. (which is the case of 0 ppl on those forums I think :D) You can engage head-on only after you've crippled the Protoss enough with guerrilla tactics that you have a significant supply advantage, or if you manage to get the Protoss to split up his army from all the multi-pronged harassment. There are a lot of conditionals to that.
no. There is two conditionals which don't rely on the toss:
Have the proper amount of ghost/vikings
Have a golike micro.
Those guys (especially Taeja) are able to destroy P in 200/200 fights trough good army control/positionning. Something we can only dream about.
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On August 15 2012 03:49 ArcticRaven wrote:Yeah, they're better because they're stronger is what you're saying. And for that autocasting thing - I don't see your point. Why should any pro impress us with his great micro of Haywire (lol) when he can just use autocast on the right units automatically ? Show nested quote +If you think the warhound is nothing more than a second marauder, I feel bad for you. It hits harder and has more range. Such a great, innovative design.
Autocast on the right units correctly. lol. Without target firing? cute. Its not about impressing anyone, its about winning.
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On August 15 2012 02:58 ROOTT1 wrote:
2. Very A-Click like, making it not very useful to micro
3. Doesn't feel very mech like
these 2 points contradict each other, no?
Not quite, so back in BW vultures required quite a bit of micro, kinda like hellions today, but imo more micro intensive then hellions. Goliaths also required some micro, i.e target firing air, keep positional alignments etc. because they weren't all that powerful on the ground verus ground (not bad by any means, but cost for cost tanks were better ground wise) So although we do not need this unit to be as micro intensive as a marine, we expect it to fit into position play and require strategy and more micro intensive than A-click
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but they do changed the warhound model:
+ Show Spoiler +old model(blizzcon): ![[image loading]](http://shokzguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/starcraft-2-heart-of-the-swarm-warhound-570x333.jpg) New model (MLG): ![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb57525/starcraft/images/6/6a/Warhound_SC2-HotS_DevRend2.jpg)
Its very similar, but still...
On topic, i dont like the warhound its just a big marauder only usable vs P and T.
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Also, having energy over cool down on warhounds isn't such a bad idea for any abilities it might have because HT will be useful versus mech, but not so over powered because HT are slow risk getting hit by tanks and would have to target feedback lots of warhounds
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On August 15 2012 03:52 LgNKami wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 03:49 ArcticRaven wrote:Yeah, they're better because they're stronger is what you're saying. And for that autocasting thing - I don't see your point. Why should any pro impress us with his great micro of Haywire (lol) when he can just use autocast on the right units automatically ? If you think the warhound is nothing more than a second marauder, I feel bad for you. It hits harder and has more range. Such a great, innovative design. Autocast on the right units correctly. lol. Without target firing? cute. Its not about impressing anyone, its about winning.
I feel you do not understand me. My point is, this unit is boring because it's another marauder and autocaset makes it worse because it doesn't even reward spell firing.
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On August 15 2012 01:50 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 01:48 Thaniri wrote:
Dakim literally said that the warhound and hellion are being designed to be a-move units in the anaheim interview.
They just don't realize how stupid that is. Current Terran units already require lots of micro to maximize effectiveness, what's wrong with having a couple a-click units in the mix? You really want to make Terran players micro even more than they already have to?
There should be as few a-cick units in the game I feel.
With the ease of use of all of them, there needs to be a high ceiling.
No, I'm not a bw fanboy, I actually never played more than 2 games. I'm just saying that because of how easy the engine makes things for the player, give them room to make it difficult/more effective.
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I think it has awful unit design, doesn't seem to be a fun unit at all. Would've rather seen the Goliath.
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EPT
