EPT[D] Warhound: Is it good or should it be changed? - Page 8
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ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On August 15 2012 03:37 ArcticRaven wrote: Well. You asked him for a relevant match and he gave you one. I don't consider qualifiers as relevant. In addition, of which the videos he suggested, ghosts did not enter the scene till mid late game. you're not going to have ghosts to answer immortals when you go mech. Not now, not ever Also I was top master. Focus firing after you hit more than 10 units is much harder than you are trying to suggest. Unless you like wasted projectile dps and miss macro back in base, you can micro all day long and be behind. Go put one of those automaton computers design to focus fire vs your human version of focus fire, with the same amount of units. Then you can tell me how easy it is to focus fire after he abolishes your army with still over 1/2 of his remains And add in things like banelings then you can tell me how fun and easy it is to focus fire | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On August 15 2012 03:49 ArcticRaven wrote: Yeah, they're better because they're stronger is what you're saying. And for that autocasting thing - I don't see your point. Why should any pro impress us with his great micro of Haywire (lol) when he can just use autocast on the right units automatically ? It hits harder and has more range. Such a great, innovative design. 1. It's a part of the factory tech, filling a hole in mech play as mech never had a beefy all-purpose unit like bio does. 2. It's an anti-mechanical specialist, while the marauder is an anti-armour specialist. This gives it a clear, differentiated role from the marauder (i.e. it's bad vs. all things Zerg, while marauder is great vs. things like banelings and roaches). 3. Haywire focus-fire doesn't happen with auto-cast. Point #1 is the biggest thing. I'd classify the warhound more like the goliath, rather than the marauder. | ||
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CrtBalorda
Slovenia704 Posts
What the fuck is blizzard doing with the unti!?! Are they to stupid to see that it looks like C&C then Starcraft? They dont even care. If I am totaly honest I think the Warhound is fine, this game isnt getting any harder anyway. OOOOOOOwwwww bio is hard! Well what if there is no more bio and we switch 100% to mech? Wherz da skill now ha!?! Warhound is fine, they just really need to chenge the model. | ||
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Sircoolguy
United States81 Posts
I don't consider qualifiers as relevant. In addition, of which the videos he suggested, ghosts did not enter the scene till mid late game. you're not going to have ghosts to answer immortals when you go mech. Not now, not ever[/QUOTE] Well actually a couple ghost wouldn't be that hard to get into an army like mech. They don't even need any upgrades except for Mobious reactor and cloak to be useful at EMPing a P army. Certainly wouldn't see them early to early mid game but late game mech vs P having 3-5 ghosts would be very useful versus any immortal based army | ||
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ArcticRaven
France1406 Posts
On August 15 2012 04:00 iamcaustic wrote: 1. It's a part of the factory tech, filling a hole in mech play as mech never had a beefy all-purpose unit like bio does. 2. It's an anti-mechanical specialist, while the marauder is an anti-armour specialist. This gives it a clear, differentiated role from the marauder (i.e. it's bad vs. all things Zerg, while marauder is great vs. things like banelings and roaches). 3. Haywire focus-fire doesn't happen with auto-cast. Point #1 is the biggest thing. I'd classify the warhound more like the goliath, rather than the marauder. Yeah, it's a factory marauder that's useless versus zerg. Sorry, I forgot another point that makes the unit have an awful design. As for that focus firing thing, I haven't been clear and I apologize for that. Allow me to correct myself. My point is, this unit is boring because it's another marauder and autocaset makes it worse because it doesn't even reward spell firing. I don't consider qualifiers as relevant. In addition, of which the videos he suggested, ghosts did not enter the scene till mid late game. you're not going to have ghosts to answer immortals when you go mech. Not now, not ever Broadcasted matches are relevant. And if you disagree, well I don't care. You asked for a match and he gave you one. Don't give arbitrary reasons, and don't say nothing will ever happen when the match it happened was given to you. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On August 15 2012 03:59 iky43210 wrote: I don't consider qualifiers as relevant. In addition, of which the videos he suggested, ghosts did not enter the scene till mid late game. you're not going to have ghosts to answer immortals when you go mech. Not now, not ever you're just being silly. A qualifier is as relevant as another online tournament, especially when both players are in the ro8 of the TSL4. You didn't watch the vods since Hack goes for an aggressive opening (7marine/3hellion/medivac) into huge macro mode with double CC/armory and add his ghosts just after getting is 5th factory, having ghosts in the midgame to deal with archons/chargelots/imo/hts. it wasn't mid late game at all considering he has the first ready around 120-130 food but it's easy to criticize without watching, good job on that. On August 15 2012 04:02 Sircoolguy wrote: Well actually a couple ghost wouldn't be that hard to get into an army like mech. They don't even need any upgrades except for Mobious reactor and cloak to be useful at EMPing a P army. Certainly wouldn't see them early to early mid game but late game mech vs P having 3-5 ghosts would be very useful versus any immortal based army Cloack isn't even needed until late game since the protoss is forced to attack you if he doesn't want to get poked by tanks while you leapfrog once you're in range of something. just emp the shit going at you and you can target templars with tanks or fried them with small hellion squads. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On August 15 2012 04:02 Sircoolguy wrote: Well actually a couple ghost wouldn't be that hard to get into an army like mech. They don't even need any upgrades except for Mobious reactor and cloak to be useful at EMPing a P army. Certainly wouldn't see them early to early mid game but late game mech vs P having 3-5 ghosts would be very useful versus any immortal based army Thing is though, that early gas tends to go into siege tanks so you can.. you know, actually defend. Ghost/hellion early-mid game isn't exactly going to survive Protoss pushes. | ||
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crow_mw
Poland115 Posts
Warhound is not 'another marauder'. Warhounds will not have the marauders mobility, its great synergy with medivacs and the small utility in form of c.shells. Marauders on the other hand will not be as tanky as warhounds and as mentioned above require a totally different development of your base. Also marauders are anti-armored whereas warhounds are anti-mechanical. In TvP it potentially gives the warhound an edge (everything but zealot and templat-tech is mechanical). In TvT however it gives interesting options for interaction - marauders will likely rape warhounds. Even though Zerg does not have any mechanical units I do believe warhound will still be used here in place of current hellion. If any unit feels redundand in comparison to warhound it is the new hellion. However, since new form is just more hp and different attack pattern, not the actual damage (at least in current iterration), battle hellions will still be a weak core unit. | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On August 15 2012 04:02 Sircoolguy wrote: I don't consider qualifiers as relevant. In addition, of which the videos he suggested, ghosts did not enter the scene till mid late game. you're not going to have ghosts to answer immortals when you go mech. Not now, not ever Well actually a couple ghost wouldn't be that hard to get into an army like mech. They don't even need any upgrades except for Mobious reactor and cloak to be useful at EMPing a P army. Certainly wouldn't see them early to early mid game but late game mech vs P having 3-5 ghosts would be very useful versus any immortal based army I know ghost are important for late game in any army composition, but that's not what the context of the discussion is about. he's suggesting using ghosts to counter immortals/stalkers/whatever when going mech, but ghosts are not going to pop out anytime soon when you go mech based army. Warhound's haywire is the best solution as mech for mid game stalkers all in or immortal busts | ||
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Sircoolguy
United States81 Posts
On August 15 2012 04:04 iamcaustic wrote: Thing is though, that early gas tends to go into siege tanks so you can.. you know, actually defend. Ghost/hellion early-mid game isn't exactly going to survive Protoss pushes. I agree with you, ghost mech won't happen until a substantial army can be made out of mech units, which would be around mid game time. What I think would happen though would be a mass immortal/air base play out of P as a reaction. Then T could get a few ghost in the late game to counteract the shields on the immortals | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On August 15 2012 04:07 Sircoolguy wrote: I agree with you, ghost mech won't happen until a substantial army can be made out of mech units, which would be around mid game time. What I think would happen though would be a mass immortal/air base play out of P as a reaction. Then T could get a few ghost in the late game to counteract the shields on the immortals Hack disagrees. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On August 15 2012 04:02 ArcticRaven wrote: Yeah, it's a factory marauder that's useless versus zerg. Sorry, I forgot another point that makes the unit have an awful design. As for that focus firing thing, I haven't been clear and I apologize for that. Allow me to correct myself. My point is, this unit is boring because it's another marauder and autocaset makes it worse because it doesn't even reward spell firing. I recommend reading crow_mw's post, but on top of that, I'd like to mention that auto-cast doesn't remove the reward of manual spell firing. Auto-cast will just shoot things wherever and prevent any sort of focus-fire micro. If you don't think that's significant, then I really question your reasoning. | ||
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
On August 15 2012 03:54 Sircoolguy wrote: Also, having energy over cool down on warhounds isn't such a bad idea for any abilities it might have because HT will be useful versus mech, but not so over powered because HT are slow risk getting hit by tanks and would have to target feedback lots of warhounds You seriously want even MORE terran units to get destroyed by HT's? No thank you. Can we please just wait for the beta? There are so many compositions that need to be tested before anyone can conclude anything. | ||
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ZeaL.
United States5955 Posts
Solution: Give the warhound a 200/200 upgrade to carry siege tanks on its back while slowing movement speed. Counters: Immortals and hydraroach. | ||
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Sircoolguy
United States81 Posts
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ArcticRaven
France1406 Posts
Also, for crow's post - He said himself what he wanted with mech was a cannon fodder. That's battle hellions, and I'm unsure why he doesn't like them in that role since more hp is all he asked. The Warhound will not integrate mech, except as a remplacement for tanks, which he shares counters with. (except in TvZ, but it doesn't exist in TvZ anyway) And if it does that, Mech won't be an unique, position-rewarding style of play like it has been. I'll be just another deathball. And in that deathball, the warhound will fit exactly the role of the marauder, a strong unit that beats what exactly the marauder beats, except for marauders themselves - but then, against bio, the warhound is as useless as it is against zerg - it might as well not exist. | ||
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R3DT1D3
285 Posts
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Picklebread
808 Posts
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lost_artz
United States366 Posts
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