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On August 15 2012 02:50 Gfire wrote:
I don't know why people say the Warhound is an a-move unit. Even it's basic attack requires as much micro as a unit like an immortal, but you also have a greater variance in effectiveness you can achieve due to the haywire missiles. You'll need to control them carefully to make sure that you are in range of a mech unit at all times, and moreso to optimally focus fire units. It's essentially twice as complex as most regular units.
Yeah well - Focus firing isn't very micro intensive.
Its really a bothersome replying to split up quotes, but don't ever underestimate the micro it needs to fire haywire every 6 seconds. Mouseover selection and accuracy is definitely something not to be underestimated, especially when you have to do it for every single warhound you produced.
I gave you a reason why pure battlehellion/warhound won't work if you produce them purely. Because you are still not going to beat the firepower of the protoss units without having massive aoe dmg of your own. your units is going to melt in the face of protoss late game without tank's aoe dmg
Why don't you go find a terran/protoss, and go see how awesome your battlehellion/warhound composition fair against late game protoss. Have fun
Split quotes allow clarity. Did you play the HotS custom map ? This composition is extremely easy to use and quite strong (although this might be due to the numbers, which can and will change) And for that massive AoE damage of mines and tanks you are talking about - Blizzard says themselves they don't think mines will ever cause trouble to pro players, and tanks we already have and they aren't very effective in TvP.
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nope it's the dumbest unit concept ever.
it has got RIDICULOUS stats.
- same supply as a stalker, with slight increase in cost (25/25 more expensive)
- 220 health with 1 armor- probably the beefiest unit in the game per cost.
- stalker dps vs armored: 9,72 warhound dps vs non-mechanical: 17,69
- range of 7
- missile ability adds an extra 5 dps vs mechanical, which doesn't seem much, but it is burst damage, meaning that for example 14 warhounds can burst down a thor before the thor even fires once.
- IT IS EVEN ALMOST AS FAST AS A STALKER. like 3% slower.
ok i get it stalker has blink and can fire at air, but this is too much. the warhound will be literally the most powerful, most cost effective and most supply effective unit in the game vs everything, not only mechanical. i'd like to test how many stalkers it can deal with but to me it seems like one warhound can beat like 3-4 stalkers in 1vs1 combat and that is just not right.... it will be the automatic go-to unit vs everything but air if it doesn't get nerfed to hell.
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Do Warhounds serve a purpose in TvZ?
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Hate it hate it hate it.
It's a boring a-move unit. As a Terran, I LIKE that our units are micro-intensive. It's part of the racial character and has been since brood war.
Its role overlaps with Thors and Marauders. What is it supposed to do, exactly? Kill stuff from range? Yeah, Terran pretty much has that covered already.
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On August 15 2012 02:49 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 02:42 ArcticRaven wrote:On August 15 2012 02:40 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 15 2012 02:36 TheRealNanMan wrote:On August 15 2012 02:26 johnnywup wrote:
it's just a marauder built out of a factory...has to go Pretty much sums it up... Let's give a marauder a bigger suit more damage vs mech(Wait isn't all of protoss mech? No they still have Zealots! Oh good at least protoss will be able to do something vs this new "mech" ....Don't forget you've got battle hellions to deal with those annoying zealots >_>) Of course everything could change since the game is still in Alpha but it looks like they are just saying here Terran you get to play with a 1A deathball now >_< I can only hope that things will change by beta and the final release. More protoss complaining... The warhound cannot shoot air, is not massive (you still have phoenix) and you get this new awesome airship that can shoot 22 range. Even if you dont currently like the DPS or whatever on the tempest, it can change quite a bit before launch. I highly doubt that the warhound will ever get an air attack. It may change the way you play the matchup but even that goes towards what you guys want in a new and different game. Seriously guys, try the HOTS custom map. I cannot stress enough how inaccurate most of these complaints are. I play zerg and terran, and have played that map. The Warhound is a factory marauder. Exactly. I hate when people who don't have enough imagination to see how this units would play out speak their opinions (Because any person who is more or less an analytical mind knows that this unit concept is bad for competition). Also any unit having such favorable smart-firing that favors easy to use play is bad.
You mean like the colossus? And where is your imagination? You can't even look at how it could possibly be viable, instead you just want to crap on it because it's a new terran unit that you dont want to play with or against. You can turn that smart firing off too if you want the micro...
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the design is exactly what blizzard intendeds-an a-move unit that appeals to casuals
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Hope it will be removed. Terran race will be nicely done w/o it.
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I don't like that the main body of it kinda looks like an SCV.
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I think we will already be too busy microing tanks to focus fire sentries, putting widow mines to flank, cloak banshees and target down immortals, putting down pdd, repair thors with scvs, etc etc... More things to micro? No thanks. Blizzard probably realized this and put beefy a-move units like warhound and battle hellions, so Terrans can have little more breathing room to micro everything else.
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On August 15 2012 02:53 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 02:33 ArcticRaven wrote:On August 15 2012 02:25 iky43210 wrote:On August 15 2012 02:19 ArcticRaven wrote:On August 15 2012 02:11 iky43210 wrote:On August 15 2012 02:08 ArcticRaven wrote:On August 15 2012 02:05 Tom Cruise wrote:On August 15 2012 02:04 ArcticRaven wrote:On August 15 2012 02:03 Tom Cruise wrote:On August 15 2012 02:02 ArcticRaven wrote:
[quote]
Arguments ? none needed. Sarcasm I hope. why so? 'Cause you know, debating with arguments and reasoning, you know, all that stuff..... I still have a glimmer of hope. On August 15 2012 02:06 iky43210 wrote:On August 15 2012 02:04 Grapefruit wrote:
With no AA there is literally no reason to build them, instead of tanks. blinks stalkers and immortals are 2 good reasons In that case, you won't want Tanks - you'll want Warhounds instead of them. And tankless mech isn't mech - it's just like Bio, but without micro, which isn't what I want as spectator or player. ?? silly argument Can you read the whole post please ? Warhounds and tanks aren't complementary. So you'll have Thor/Hellion/Warhound - a mechanical army that behaves just like Bio except it is microless. I'll redirect you to this : http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=360325On August 15 2012 02:13 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 15 2012 01:48 Thaniri wrote:
Dakim literally said that the warhound and hellion are being designed to be a-move units in the anaheim interview.
They just don't realize how stupid that is. I dont know why everyone is jumping on this bandwagon... Two of the three races right now ARE predominantly a-move armies so this isnt really anything that's stupid or different. But what we need then is more micro on the other races. If I want to watch or play a dumbed down game I can just choose LoL. You made alot of assumptions for something that isn't even on the beta. First off you don't know the composition and the meta games in the HOTS, but keep this in mind. Mech without tank is simply a bioball that is 1) slower 2) less dps (zealots aren't mechanical) 3) cannot be healed. Without tank and window mind aoe firepower, pure battlehellions and warhound is most likely not going to work. Secondly, mech describes composition where your majority of food is comes from the factory. It has nothing to do with tank or not. Lastly, warhound is more apm intensive then people give credits. Having to spam haywire (depending on how many you got) every 6 seconds is not light on the apm counts. on top of tank focus fire, positioning, hellion controls etc Spamming every 6 seconds during fights ? That's not very hard. It's super easy in fact. As for the rest - I'll just redirect you to this : http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=360325 . What makes mech interesting is not that the units are mechanical. It is that it's a completely different way to play the game. 1) slower
2) less dps (zealots aren't mechanical)
3) cannot be healed.
Without tank and window mind aoe firepower, pure battlehellions and warhound is most likely not going to work. Why not ? I haven't had the impression were even remotely good against zealots, and Blizz just gave Terran a great counter. Tankless mech is also faster as you do not have to leapfrog, and Warhounds can't be healed either. On August 15 2012 02:19 ArcticRaven wrote:
But what we need then is more micro on the other races. If I want to watch or play a dumbed down game I can just choose LoL.
Right, but the rest of the terran units are still VERY micro intensive. They can (and probably should) still work on adding some micro into the other races even if they add the warhound to the terran army. The more micro (for everyone) the better. This game doesn't need a second marauder or colossus. On August 15 2012 02:31 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 15 2012 02:30 Bjoernzor wrote:
The warhound is a marauder that comes out of the factory, go figue It has more life and more range... It is not economical to run marauders into a tank line to try and break it. I really, really dont think that most of the complainers have tried using it yet. More life and more range doesn't make a unit play differently. Its really a bothersome replying to split up quotes, but don't ever underestimate the micro it needs to fire haywire every 6 seconds. Mouseover selection and accuracy is definitely something not to be underestimated, especially when you have to do it for every single warhound you produced. I gave you a reason why pure battlehellion/warhound won't work if you produce them purely. Because you are still not going to beat the late game firepower of the protoss units without having massive aoe dmg of your own. Not a god damn chance. your units is going to melt in the face of protoss late game without tank support Why don't you go find a terran/protoss, and go see how awesome your battlehellion/warhound composition fair against late game protoss. Have fun and there is nothing wrong with marauders. Did marauders make terran bio 1-a or made them not micro intensive? Last I check Terran is still an incredibly APM intensive race regardless of having marauders or not
Maybe up to gm it'd be considered as micro but for ppl who played bw it's just a huge joke...
mouse accuracy is miles harder in ghosts/ht battles....
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2. Very A-Click like, making it not very useful to micro
3. Doesn't feel very mech like
these 2 points contradict each other, no?
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On August 15 2012 02:57 mrlie3 wrote:
I think we will already be too busy microing tanks to focus fire sentries, putting widow mines to flank, cloak banshees and target down immortals, putting down pdd, repair thors with scvs, etc etc... More things to micro? No thanks. Blizzard probably realized this and put beefy a-move units like warhound and battle hellions, so Terrans can have little more breathing room to micro everything else.
plz plz blizzard let me suck and have a good rank...
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On August 15 2012 02:54 transcendent one wrote:
nope it's the dumbest unit concept ever.
it has got RIDICULOUS stats.
- same supply as a stalker, with slight increase in cost (25/25 more expensive)
- 220 health with 1 armor- probably the beefiest unit in the game per cost.
- stalker dps vs armored: 9,72 warhound dps vs non-mechanical: 17,69
- range of 7
- missile ability adds an extra 5 dps vs mechanical, which doesn't seem much, but it is burst damage, meaning that for example 14 warhounds can burst down a thor before the thor even fires once.
- IT IS EVEN ALMOST AS FAST AS A STALKER. like 3% slower.
ok i get it stalker has blink and can fire at air, but this is too much. the warhound will be literally the most powerful, most cost effective and most supply effective unit in the game vs everything, not only mechanical. i'd like to test how many stalkers it can deal with but to me it seems like one warhound can beat like 3-4 stalkers in 1vs1 combat and that is just not right.... it will be the automatic go-to unit vs everything but air if it doesn't get nerfed to hell.
Numbers will change.
On August 15 2012 02:55 CaptainCrush wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 02:49 thezanursic wrote:On August 15 2012 02:42 ArcticRaven wrote:On August 15 2012 02:40 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 15 2012 02:36 TheRealNanMan wrote:On August 15 2012 02:26 johnnywup wrote:
it's just a marauder built out of a factory...has to go Pretty much sums it up... Let's give a marauder a bigger suit more damage vs mech(Wait isn't all of protoss mech? No they still have Zealots! Oh good at least protoss will be able to do something vs this new "mech" ....Don't forget you've got battle hellions to deal with those annoying zealots >_>) Of course everything could change since the game is still in Alpha but it looks like they are just saying here Terran you get to play with a 1A deathball now >_< I can only hope that things will change by beta and the final release. More protoss complaining... The warhound cannot shoot air, is not massive (you still have phoenix) and you get this new awesome airship that can shoot 22 range. Even if you dont currently like the DPS or whatever on the tempest, it can change quite a bit before launch. I highly doubt that the warhound will ever get an air attack. It may change the way you play the matchup but even that goes towards what you guys want in a new and different game. Seriously guys, try the HOTS custom map. I cannot stress enough how inaccurate most of these complaints are. I play zerg and terran, and have played that map. The Warhound is a factory marauder. Exactly. I hate when people who don't have enough imagination to see how this units would play out speak their opinions (Because any person who is more or less an analytical mind knows that this unit concept is bad for competition). Also any unit having such favorable smart-firing that favors easy to use play is bad. You mean like the colossus? And where is your imagination? You can't even look at how it could possibly be viable, instead you just want to crap on it because it's a new terran unit that you dont want to play with or against. You can turn that smart firing off too if you want the micro...
I play terran and I agree with him.
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I think just nerf missles to less damage and no autocast and you have a fantastic unit.
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On August 15 2012 02:54 ArcticRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 02:50 Gfire wrote:
I don't know why people say the Warhound is an a-move unit. Even it's basic attack requires as much micro as a unit like an immortal, but you also have a greater variance in effectiveness you can achieve due to the haywire missiles. You'll need to control them carefully to make sure that you are in range of a mech unit at all times, and moreso to optimally focus fire units. It's essentially twice as complex as most regular units. Yeah well - Focus firing isn't very micro intensive.
don't know what you're talking about, but focus firing is extremely micro intensive. In fact, it is so intensive that most people 1-a and micro position instead of focus firing in fear of screwing up.
How many pros out there can focus fire while at the same time macroing up back at home? Just about as many that can split in combat while adding more structures at bases. Every second spent in battle is wasted time not macroing up
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heres a write up i did on most of the hots stuff warhound included
i think BW wouldnt have been so successfull if it didnt have such amazingly well designed units with such great depth in gameplay that all of its qualities when combined ended up creating
I believe you can design new units with a starcraft feel, that fit well in the starcraft gameplay concept essence, while still being cool and unique, but hots is not a good example of it.
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Early game recalls? get rid of it. bad design. starcraft is about risks in army movement. lategame with nydus/drops/sensor towers in mind, its okay on the mothership.
protoss harassment unit that shields the minerals? just pure stupidity. get rid of the oracle all its spells are so stupid
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the viper? all of its spells are so dumb. get rid of it. doesnt fit well in the starcraft entertainment persona. I understand zergs had darkswarm in BW but that was moreso of a needed design crutch because zerg was designed to be weaker than lategame terran without it. right now zerg doesnt need darkswarm because their units are stronger, and so that design crutch doesnt really need to exist. zergs dont need swarm, but they have almost a stronger plague in the form of fungal (fungals much easier to get than plague, and 2casts kills 30 marines in 7 seconds? yup. its amazing how overbalanced fungal is in strength, but zergs need it in the current meta to compete). my main concern is with the vipers abduct spell. its just stupid all around, i actually think its a little too weak and stupid of a concept. just doesnt fit well in the starcraft essence.
ultra burrow charge? wont make it past beta however this is just one of the random cool concepts they were thinking of that they probably just decided to throw in last minute like baneling burrow movement.
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nexus into a 13range planetary? get rid of it. bad design. toss already has cannons from the forge zerg has spores/spines from the evo chamber, terran has planetarys/turrets from the engi bay.
protoss does not need this. its just bad design all around. they already have cannons. i actually consider bunkers to be more of a unit, considering it needs units to operate, i consider bunkers to be an extension of barracks tech because plain marines lose to zealots/stalkers/sentry/speedlings, but can win and defend the terrans natural with the help of bunkers, but the terran cant be offensive with those marines easily because bunkers cannot move. marines needed to be made weaker than vanilla stalkers/speedlings because if they werent terran could rush and win every game. so bunkers allowed marines to be balanced as weaker units early game and bunkers made it so as long as the marines are in the terrans base, they are strong, but when the marines leave the bunkers they become weak. then lategame marines have upgrades/support and no longer need the bunkers.
in starcraft 1 bunkers didnt have such elegant design theory in their concept, blizzard just made bunkers because it seemed like a cool idea. however in WoL bunkers serve the above design element. they make it so marines are strong at home but weak when attacking the enemy. marines needed to be balanced as weaker than toss/zerg tier1 units early game for balances sake
as far as the nexus planetary, its bad design because toss already has cannons. Terran has planetarys which CAN be massed around the map to serve as terran cannons. 1 cannon never did anything when used to control space, normally a toss makes 4 cannons in an area to control space. well guess what, 4cannons+pylon is 150 more minerals than a planetary and the planetary is STRONGER. i think in the future terrans will start to realize they do have their own form of "zero supply static defense" to use around the map lategame the way tosses put cannons everywhere lategame, and thats planetarys. planetarys/turrets are the terrans cannons, and both come from engi bay/forge respectively and cost no supply
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warhounds? just stupid. tanks/hellions control ground, thors are a big power unit that punches the hell out of ground and can splash air. mech in broodwar was very strong against air with goliaths. i like the new approach in sc2 where mech is weaker against air (since its only air shooting unit is thors which arent too great at anti air) but being weak against air seems like what mech should be. mech has small anti air options in thors, and then tanks/hellions are all about controlling the ground. the warhound is pretty un-needed when you got tanks and hellions to balance against ground
the warhounds stats are actually almost the same as thors. hilariously, blizzard almost designed the warhound as nothing more than a thor with no energy bar. Thors if they had no energy bar (and no strike cannons) would be great units in tvp mech because they pack a huge punch and have 400 health. Thors only suck in tvp because feedback deals 200damage to them for 50 energy.
warhounds really are funny when you realize blizzard could have simply just removed thors energy bar (and strike cannons) and the thor would be exactly like the warhound except it shoots air and walks slower. wait warhound are probably stronger than thors because warhounds have these overbalanced missiles which are clearly overbalanced in the alpha version and would need to be heavily nerfed to make it out of beta. warhounds cannot be balanced to have missiles that counter all toss units not named the zealot, it will never make it out of beta at this rate
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widow mines are stupid. i felt mines in BW were sort of a crutch that needed to be balanced to exist to fix out some other overall bgalance problens, but SC2 does not need them
tempest is stupid. not even gonna bother explaining why.
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zergs swarm host, and battle hellions are two example of units that i feel are highly well balanced and fit in the "starcraft esports gameplay essence feeling". Protoss, zerg, and terran could stand to each GAIN two units that are balanced and fun in concept as these units, and carriers shouldnt be removed.
What can blizzard design and add? Well i understand designing units is hard and your tempted to make cool weird things. But sometimes bland things like battle hellions can be what is needed.
I feel that one reason WoL is doing so well is because it is SO CLOSE to BW in gameplay design (not in terms of pathing/UI, but in terms of race design and the units races have). Most matchups in sc2 "feel" almost 80% like the bw matchups. Many units are the same or with the same roles, but the boring design crutches like swarm/mines/OPstorms were able to be removed by placing buffs in other areas (such as zerg getting tier2 fungals which are like mega plagues, 2 casts killing 30 marines for 150 energy in 7 seconds)
HOTS looks like it might "feel" 50% like BW, or even less, which could lead to its failure. BW was highly successful for a reason, there were many other RTS's with better UI, more units per race, more gameplay elements, but BW ended up being popular because the units are designed to well and create such a great "feel"
I think Sc2 has MANY of the original "feels" that BW had, and thats why Sc2 kept alot of success. Many matchups in sc2 feel almost like the BW matchups, just changed slightly with design crutches being balanced out.
i seriously believe if HOTS units arent more in line with how sc2 units should "feel" like, chances are hots will fail horribly and most tournaments wont switch over to it.
hots is not garunteed to take over WoL's spotlight. if HOTS doesnt "feel" as amazing as wol feels to viewers, many viewers might prefer watching WoL tournaments.
thankfully, blizzard has 1year to fix things
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On August 15 2012 01:49 YourAdHere wrote:
I'm really concerned it's going to ruin TvT. I remember reading Browder or someone else say that they weren't a fan of siege tank lines in TvT but I'm pretty sure TvT is near universally considered the best and most skillful mirror matchup and siege tanks being super strong in fixed positions is a big part of that.
Also do fear this, atm you can play nearly anny combination as terran, there is nothing wich is significantly stronger then other combinations, my fear is that massing warhounds with adding aa if needed will be a to strong strategy, and thereby eliminating the variety of viable play styles terran currently has.
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On August 15 2012 03:01 ArcticRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 02:54 transcendent one wrote:
nope it's the dumbest unit concept ever.
it has got RIDICULOUS stats.
- same supply as a stalker, with slight increase in cost (25/25 more expensive)
- 220 health with 1 armor- probably the beefiest unit in the game per cost.
- stalker dps vs armored: 9,72 warhound dps vs non-mechanical: 17,69
- range of 7
- missile ability adds an extra 5 dps vs mechanical, which doesn't seem much, but it is burst damage, meaning that for example 14 warhounds can burst down a thor before the thor even fires once.
- IT IS EVEN ALMOST AS FAST AS A STALKER. like 3% slower.
ok i get it stalker has blink and can fire at air, but this is too much. the warhound will be literally the most powerful, most cost effective and most supply effective unit in the game vs everything, not only mechanical. i'd like to test how many stalkers it can deal with but to me it seems like one warhound can beat like 3-4 stalkers in 1vs1 combat and that is just not right.... it will be the automatic go-to unit vs everything but air if it doesn't get nerfed to hell. Numbers will change. Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 02:55 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 15 2012 02:49 thezanursic wrote:On August 15 2012 02:42 ArcticRaven wrote:On August 15 2012 02:40 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 15 2012 02:36 TheRealNanMan wrote:On August 15 2012 02:26 johnnywup wrote:
it's just a marauder built out of a factory...has to go Pretty much sums it up... Let's give a marauder a bigger suit more damage vs mech(Wait isn't all of protoss mech? No they still have Zealots! Oh good at least protoss will be able to do something vs this new "mech" ....Don't forget you've got battle hellions to deal with those annoying zealots >_>) Of course everything could change since the game is still in Alpha but it looks like they are just saying here Terran you get to play with a 1A deathball now >_< I can only hope that things will change by beta and the final release. More protoss complaining... The warhound cannot shoot air, is not massive (you still have phoenix) and you get this new awesome airship that can shoot 22 range. Even if you dont currently like the DPS or whatever on the tempest, it can change quite a bit before launch. I highly doubt that the warhound will ever get an air attack. It may change the way you play the matchup but even that goes towards what you guys want in a new and different game. Seriously guys, try the HOTS custom map. I cannot stress enough how inaccurate most of these complaints are. I play zerg and terran, and have played that map. The Warhound is a factory marauder. Exactly. I hate when people who don't have enough imagination to see how this units would play out speak their opinions (Because any person who is more or less an analytical mind knows that this unit concept is bad for competition). Also any unit having such favorable smart-firing that favors easy to use play is bad. You mean like the colossus? And where is your imagination? You can't even look at how it could possibly be viable, instead you just want to crap on it because it's a new terran unit that you dont want to play with or against. You can turn that smart firing off too if you want the micro... I play terran and I agree with him.
yeah numbers will change but right now the only special thing about it is that is has ridiculous stats, if it gets nerfed, it will be a mech version of marauder, hence the concept being dumb.
right now it probably beats everything on the ground except siege tank in a max vs max army. with tweaked stats there will be no point to build it ever because marauders can stim and be healed for free...
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If they just added widow mines and buffed siege tanks I would be a happy camper. Take the Warhound out.
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The game looks awful.
The reason warhound is there is because it is a bandaid. There needs to be an all purpose unit that's extremely beefy with significant DPS to prop up all the extraordinary weaknesses of the other mech units.
The game has too many hard counters, and the result is extraordinarily powerful units to compensate.
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EPT
