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On July 24 2013 01:52 catabowl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 01:15 sibs wrote:On July 24 2013 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On July 24 2013 00:09 theKingKobra wrote:
In my opinion the issue is that at the top level, three base macro terran is extremely hard for Z to deal with if left alone. soulkey reverse swept inno with two unscouted roach bane timings, defended a cheese, and won one macro game cuz of gifted medivacs.
When innovation makes no mistakes, it seems impossible for him to lose to Z The best sc2 player wins --> complain. It's INNOVATION. What about him being just sick good? No? It has to be the balance! it's just innovation winning tvz right? wcs kr/gstl/proleague TvZ does not favor terran massively? If the name was "Flash" there would be zero complaining. They would be holding parades and telling everyone that Flash is god. Since the name is "Innovation" must be balance whine. It's quite annoying really. Innovation is the best in the world right now. Deal with it Flasholytes.
I think there would be much less complaining if Innovation was dominating vZ with a bunch of different strategies and in a bunch of different ways. The problem arises when all he does is 4M because it is the best and most cost efficient thing to do. Sure he does it better than anyone but it's clear that is the only good strategy vZ right now, not because it is all Terrans can do to win but because it is so much easier to win doing just that (akin to BL + Infestor in WoL). That is why people cry imbalance. I wish people wouldn't make "Oh innovation is just so good." While true, if you watch the games objectively you can see not only did SK play well and loose (esp game 1), but Zerg has no answer for speedvacs+ MMMM.
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SK lost. But i think doing every game the same build order (2 gas, third, 4 gas) isnt good versus Innovation's 3CC Style.
Zerg should take 2 gas @ 5:00 and then only drones until 3 base saturation. Else, there is no way for the zerg to have enough economy to take a 4th while holding the terran push.
Still, easier said than done. Innovation is a monster.
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On July 24 2013 03:40 massivez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 03:35 Fearest wrote:
Innovation, the most consistent Terran I have EVER seen, dated back from WoL. He is the best and balance should not be balanced around HIM. Look how Blizzard balanced Terran around MVP end of WoL, it was horrible and made ALL terran unable to compete.
I agree, and i disagree about nerfing specific units at this point. They just need to look at maps and vary them up a bit cause most have easy to get thirds.
Nerfing isnt needed from what I see. and the changes I want blizzard to make..will likely be implemented in LotV (aka..get rid of the freakin zzz colosseus) and make terran not have to resort to t1 units even 50 minutes into the game.
Maps are a problem though...
The proleague playoffs is a prime example of this. All maps seems to favor one race over another leading to a lot of mirror match ups and unfavorable conditions. One of the best things about BW was with Sniper Ridge/FS/Match point and WoL with CK,Daybreak, you had a few maps where no race did not have a distinct advantage going into the map.
As of HoTS, I feel you only see this in Whirlwind and Planet S.
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On July 24 2013 04:12 LighT. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 03:40 massivez wrote:On July 24 2013 03:35 Fearest wrote:
Innovation, the most consistent Terran I have EVER seen, dated back from WoL. He is the best and balance should not be balanced around HIM. Look how Blizzard balanced Terran around MVP end of WoL, it was horrible and made ALL terran unable to compete.
I agree, and i disagree about nerfing specific units at this point. They just need to look at maps and vary them up a bit cause most have easy to get thirds. Nerfing isnt needed from what I see. and the changes I want blizzard to make..will likely be implemented in LotV (aka..get rid of the freakin zzz colosseus) and make terran not have to resort to t1 units even 50 minutes into the game. Maps are a problem though... The proleague playoffs is a prime example of this. All maps seems to favor one race over another leading to a lot of mirror match ups and unfavorable conditions. One of the best things about BW was with Sniper Ridge/FS/Match point and WoL with CK,Daybreak, you had a few maps where no race did not have a distinct advantage going into the map. As of HoTS, I feel you only see this in Whirlwind and Planet S.
lol saying daybreak wasnt Z favored...
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watch game 1 -> SK could have sniped so many more medivacs (and won the game) if medivac speed had some kinda draw back.
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On July 24 2013 04:10 onPHYRE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 01:52 catabowl wrote:On July 24 2013 01:15 sibs wrote:On July 24 2013 00:47 Snowbear wrote:On July 24 2013 00:09 theKingKobra wrote:
In my opinion the issue is that at the top level, three base macro terran is extremely hard for Z to deal with if left alone. soulkey reverse swept inno with two unscouted roach bane timings, defended a cheese, and won one macro game cuz of gifted medivacs.
When innovation makes no mistakes, it seems impossible for him to lose to Z The best sc2 player wins --> complain. It's INNOVATION. What about him being just sick good? No? It has to be the balance! it's just innovation winning tvz right? wcs kr/gstl/proleague TvZ does not favor terran massively? If the name was "Flash" there would be zero complaining. They would be holding parades and telling everyone that Flash is god. Since the name is "Innovation" must be balance whine. It's quite annoying really. Innovation is the best in the world right now. Deal with it Flasholytes. I think there would be much less complaining if Innovation was dominating vZ with a bunch of different strategies and in a bunch of different ways. The problem arises when all he does is 4M because it is the best and most cost efficient thing to do. Sure he does it better than anyone but it's clear that is the only good strategy vZ right now, not because it is all Terrans can do to win but because it is so much easier to win doing just that (akin to BL + Infestor in WoL). That is why people cry imbalance. I wish people wouldn't make "Oh innovation is just so good." While true, if you watch the games objectively you can see not only did SK play well and loose (esp game 1), but Zerg has no answer for speedvacs+ MMMM.
As of this moment, its hard to argue that Innovation isnt the #1 player in SC2. My reason has always been, he hasnt done anything and 2nd/1st in WCS Finals (although it is a bit gimmicky) and he solo hard-carry of STX into the PL finals has been mighty impressive. However, I will still argue he is not a tier above everyone else and in the same tier as SK, Flash Rain and the best of the ace players.
As well as for the speedvacs + MMMM. Yes it is super cost efficient. And with incredible map awareness/multi prolonged attacks with micro/macro all at once, its incredibly difficult to stop for zerg but isnt that the same thing you saw in BW or WoL with zerg
If terran received that 200/200 3/3 upgraded mech army, its pretty much over for protoss if its at the hands of Flash. If some WoL zerg massed infestor/Bl/Corruptor, gg whoever is terran or protoss.
As for the innovation hype. I understand he's good but what irks me is how much they overexaggerate his game and status as a player who can do no wrong and promote him as someone who's won every competition he's entered in for the past year. Even with Bisu/JD/Mvp, it was never this bad.
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On July 24 2013 04:16 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 04:12 LighT. wrote:On July 24 2013 03:40 massivez wrote:On July 24 2013 03:35 Fearest wrote:
Innovation, the most consistent Terran I have EVER seen, dated back from WoL. He is the best and balance should not be balanced around HIM. Look how Blizzard balanced Terran around MVP end of WoL, it was horrible and made ALL terran unable to compete.
I agree, and i disagree about nerfing specific units at this point. They just need to look at maps and vary them up a bit cause most have easy to get thirds. Nerfing isnt needed from what I see. and the changes I want blizzard to make..will likely be implemented in LotV (aka..get rid of the freakin zzz colosseus) and make terran not have to resort to t1 units even 50 minutes into the game. Maps are a problem though... The proleague playoffs is a prime example of this. All maps seems to favor one race over another leading to a lot of mirror match ups and unfavorable conditions. One of the best things about BW was with Sniper Ridge/FS/Match point and WoL with CK,Daybreak, you had a few maps where no race did not have a distinct advantage going into the map. As of HoTS, I feel you only see this in Whirlwind and Planet S. lol saying daybreak wasnt Z favored...
It isnt as soon as they nerfedf that bs known as the gg-insta kill death ball army of zerg.
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Do artosis vods exist?  I had a busy day at work and didn't catch it live. I am sad.
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On July 24 2013 01:57 Brian333 wrote:
What was iloveoov's win rate vZ during his prime?
What was Nada's win rate vZ during his BW prime?
What was Boxer's win rate vZ during his BW prime?
What was Bisu's win rate vZ during his BW prime?
Occasionally, we see really good players dominate a match-up. Nothing I saw from Innovation lead me to believe he was winning without good reason. What I saw was an incredible player play incredible games and get rewarded for it. Isn't that a good thing?
This is what I'm thinking. We're not seeing every Terran wreck every Zerg, as would be the case (over a long enough time period) to start crying "imbalance!". Hate Innovation for having the scariest ZvT around, but don't blame it on imalance.
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On July 24 2013 04:21 PerSe wrote:
watch game 1 -> SK could have sniped so many more medivacs (and won the game) if medivac speed had some kinda draw back.
Agreed. No one argues 2 base pushes of P are very strong vs Z since they are hard to scout, but even so you can stop them, and if the P fails, there is a huge draw back as they are too far behind on tech. For T they can just pump the same 4 units all game and if they have good multitasking will win every game since there is no drawback to the strategy. Speedvacs are hard to counter and have no drawback, Mines are almost always more cost efficient than the Z army, and Marines with 3/3... well we know what does have done for a while.
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On July 24 2013 04:27 onPHYRE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 04:21 PerSe wrote:
watch game 1 -> SK could have sniped so many more medivacs (and won the game) if medivac speed had some kinda draw back. Agreed. No one argues 2 base pushes of P are very strong vs Z since they are hard to scout, but even so you can stop them, and if the P fails, there is a huge draw back as they are too far behind on tech. For T they can just pump the same 4 units all game and if they have good multitasking will win every game since there is no drawback to the strategy. Speedvacs are hard to counter and have no drawback, Mines are almost always more cost efficient than the Z army, and Marines with 3/3... well we know what does have done for a while.
The medivac booster should cost something like 25 energy. Even something simple would really balance things out and make things more interesting.
it did bother me that Innovation would lose his entire army, and then a dozen medivacs would just leave back to the terran base completely unharmed because the mutas cant catch them
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100 pages of balance talk
no one wins through skill in sc2, just race differences
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On July 24 2013 04:34 Let it Raine wrote:
100 pages of balance talk
no one wins through skill in sc2, just race differences
Ya. It pays being Korean.
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6280 viewers on the rebroadcast. That's more than it usually gets for the osl channel when it's live!
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I actually was thinking. That parade push could have been easier to deal with if soulkey started adding spines at that 4th. Then he would have had a little more leeway.
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On July 24 2013 01:49 Rhaegal wrote:
I think it's hilarious so many people said Innovation would fall off after the hellbat nerf. Now they are begging for mine nerfs, but people don't realize he had the best TvZ even at the end of wings... when winning a TvZ was a miracle. So keep asking for nerfs, while Innovation continues to roll.
This man speaks the truth.
When zerg was absolutely dominate at the end of wings, inno was going far in gsl
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TLADT24920 Posts
On July 24 2013 02:28 sharkie wrote:
so even after hellbat nerf Innovation just crushes SK...
And people actually thought SK = Innovation :D
I'm a big fan of innovation but I still think SK is about on par or a bit weaker than Innovation seeing as how he beat him 4-3 in WCS KR. My point? I don't think Innovation is that much better than SK, just enough to make a difference whenever they play.
Thanks Chobra!
^
On July 24 2013 04:26 acidfreak wrote:Do artosis vods exist? I had a busy day at work and didn't catch it live. I am sad.
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We may very well have all terran ro4
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EPT
