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On August 08 2011 16:19 Hollis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:16 Ruscour wrote:On August 08 2011 16:13 EllipZ wrote:On August 08 2011 16:11 ShootingStars wrote:
Jjakji being good? More like Terran just makes marines and medivacs and A-move to stim to win. A move?are you blind? This is hilarious...god tier marine splitting = A-move apparently. Erm, god tier? More like he barely split at all; he was just so far ahead it didn't matter. Micro didn't win this terran the game, the zerg being bad won it. Methinks your problem is you actually listen to the casters.
... did you even watch the game, because I don't know how you can say he "barely split at all" if you did watch it.....
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On August 08 2011 16:19 Hollis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:16 Ruscour wrote:On August 08 2011 16:13 EllipZ wrote:On August 08 2011 16:11 ShootingStars wrote:
Jjakji being good? More like Terran just makes marines and medivacs and A-move to stim to win. A move?are you blind? This is hilarious...god tier marine splitting = A-move apparently. Erm, god tier? More like he barely split at all; he was just so far ahead it didn't matter. Micro didn't win this terran the game, the zerg being bad won it. Methinks your problem is you actually listen to the casters.
you must be blind if you couldn't see the epic splits in this series.
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On August 08 2011 16:18 MrCon wrote:
jjakji = mkp when he was good (nowadays mkp doesn't even do mkp splits anymore)
But when he does, its so beautiful its like a work of art.
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On August 08 2011 16:19 Hollis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:16 Ruscour wrote:On August 08 2011 16:13 EllipZ wrote:On August 08 2011 16:11 ShootingStars wrote:
Jjakji being good? More like Terran just makes marines and medivacs and A-move to stim to win. A move?are you blind? This is hilarious...god tier marine splitting = A-move apparently. Erm, god tier? More like he barely split at all; he was just so far ahead it didn't matter. Micro didn't win this terran the game, the zerg being bad won it. Methinks your problem is you actually listen to the casters.
Pretty much this. I saw one really good split when there were a lot of banes, but the rest was target-firing (which is also really good). But yeah, the zerg lost by letting T get that massive medivac count going. Fungal ain't gonna do squat if the units you use it on are all getting healed, lol. And mutas? Even worse.
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On August 08 2011 16:19 Hollis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:16 Ruscour wrote:On August 08 2011 16:13 EllipZ wrote:On August 08 2011 16:11 ShootingStars wrote:
Jjakji being good? More like Terran just makes marines and medivacs and A-move to stim to win. A move?are you blind? This is hilarious...god tier marine splitting = A-move apparently. Erm, god tier? More like he barely split at all; he was just so far ahead it didn't matter. Micro didn't win this terran the game, the zerg being bad won it. Methinks your problem is you actually listen to the casters.
No. He split exactly as much as he needed to. The ideal split is one that kills the blings fastest while minimizing damage. He lost very few marines while killing the blings quickly (to allow his marines to go after the mutas).
If he split any more than he did it would have been detrimental (mutas would be getting free shots while he's splitting instead of killing the blings).
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tvsz masters : GanZi, JjakZi.
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On August 08 2011 16:19 Hollis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:16 Ruscour wrote:On August 08 2011 16:13 EllipZ wrote:On August 08 2011 16:11 ShootingStars wrote:
Jjakji being good? More like Terran just makes marines and medivacs and A-move to stim to win. A move?are you blind? This is hilarious...god tier marine splitting = A-move apparently. Erm, god tier? More like he barely split at all; he was just so far ahead it didn't matter. Micro didn't win this terran the game, the zerg being bad won it. Methinks your problem is you actually listen to the casters.
I think you should rewatch game 2. Those splits rivaled or even surpassed the stuff I've seen from MKP.
Yes jjakji stopped splitting at the end of game 2 because it didn't matter at that point because he already won.
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On August 08 2011 16:21 namedplayer wrote:
tvsz masters : GanZi, JjakZi.
mvp, mkp, mma.
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On August 08 2011 16:16 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:15 Cream wrote:On August 08 2011 16:13 Taf the Ghost wrote:On August 08 2011 16:12 ShootingStars wrote:On August 08 2011 16:12 Sc2Null wrote:
sighs..why can't we get really good zergs in code A....floating 1kmins and being supply blocked for about 45 secs isn't good. He was out of larvae... couldnt get the extra base up. It's normal. He ever make a macro hatch? Macro hatches shouldn't be necessary, he had no larva because he only has lings for defense early game which take up so much larva. Look how many he had to throw away vs the bunkers at the start. Roaches man. Not going roaches was fine.... He defended early on really well and it would've just cost him more and delayed his mutas if he were to go roaches. Maybe I'm getting the two games mixed up but I feel like he wasted a lot of larva on lings to make up his army to combat BFH/marines which can be sorted out by using a lot less larva on roaches. If roaches allow you to safely drone up and maintain a healthy economy, that would make up for any lost time you might have teching to mutas
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On August 08 2011 16:21 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:19 Hollis wrote:On August 08 2011 16:16 Ruscour wrote:On August 08 2011 16:13 EllipZ wrote:On August 08 2011 16:11 ShootingStars wrote:
Jjakji being good? More like Terran just makes marines and medivacs and A-move to stim to win. A move?are you blind? This is hilarious...god tier marine splitting = A-move apparently. Erm, god tier? More like he barely split at all; he was just so far ahead it didn't matter. Micro didn't win this terran the game, the zerg being bad won it. Methinks your problem is you actually listen to the casters. No. He split exactly as much as he needed to. The ideal split is one that kills the blings fastest while minimizing damage. He lost very few marines while killing the blings quickly (to allow his marines to go after the mutas). If he split any more than he did it would have been detrimental (mutas would be getting free shots while he's splitting instead of killing the blings).
Yes, read this -_- ...
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He split and kited the banelings so that he'd get shots off so the lings and mutas don't own his tanks. I see a lot of top terrans split but sometimes do it really inefficiently because they'll just run their marines away and they're just out of the fight, but jjakji's micro was definitely one of the best.
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hahahaha, he did split amazingly, just because they weren't big, dramatic splits that the likes of MarineKing and Happy have done in the past, this was just as good, he split just as much as he needed to, and danced back and target fired the banelings as well etc, if you think that is easy you have serious issues.
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On August 08 2011 16:18 AxionSteel wrote:
LOL @ the troll saying he just amoved marines. If any faction needs uber micro, it's terran. Terran is obviously extremely strong in the right hands, but it's very micro intensive, perhaps that is why it's so strong as it has a high skill ceiling.
Great play from Jjakji! Such Dynamic games.
Gotta agree with this completely -- for the vast majority of players, probably up to and including the best foreigners (with maybe a few exceptions), the game is quite balanced. Some of these god tier Koreans, however, have marine micro that's so incredible that they're able to extract just that little extra DPS that seems to make a big difference? So perhaps at that level the terran ceiling is just a little bit higher.
What's the answer? God tier zergling/baneling micro? Hard to say because the zerglings/banes lack range, but can close the space quickly if the engagement numbers and spacing are right... NesTea, show us the light!
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On August 08 2011 16:01 RPR_Tempest wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 15:57 coloursheep wrote:On August 08 2011 15:56 RPR_Tempest wrote:On August 08 2011 15:54 coloursheep wrote:On August 08 2011 15:51 IceSlipper wrote:On August 08 2011 15:48 coloursheep wrote:On August 08 2011 15:43 IceSlipper wrote:On August 08 2011 15:41 coloursheep wrote:On August 08 2011 15:38 IceSlipper wrote:On August 08 2011 15:37 coloursheep wrote:
[quote]
no one goes all in 100% of the time even bitbybit played at least one macro game, the point is wolf has an ulterior motive when he is talking about the best because they are on the same team and that is unprofessional.
how do you know wolf isnt telling the truth? i was going to stay out of this but got sick of you spouting opinions as facts.. what, im not talking about facts or opinions, whether or not wolf is telling the truth is irrelevant, the best could be an awesome macro player but wolf should not be saying that while he is casting because they are team mates and it is unprofessional for him to do it while he is casting im talking about YOU spouting YOUR OPINION as a fact.. not wolfs opinion.. so if wolf was on the same team as nestea, would it be wrong for him to say nestea is above average? your opinion on this matter is a joke.. my opinion that wolf should be objective? that is my opinion not a fact, im just expressing my opinion. nestea is above average, thebest is not, wolf saying he is when he has not shown that and he is trying to bolster fans opinion of him is unethical, just to make sure im not stating any facts just my opinions 1. whenever somebody has a problem with that opinion and provides and example or proof, you basically quote them and say NO, then repeat the exact same opinion/statement.. 2. you just said it is irrelevant whether he is telling the truth or not, so how does nestea being good and thebest being bad change anything? 3. who are you to tell us whether or not thebest is better than he gets credit for? ill take wolf's opinion on that matter over your's anyday, thanks. 4. this is so ridiculous i dont even know why im responding.. i agree, your response is ridiculous and has nothing to do with what i'm saying. lets end this, it is my opinion that when wolf, or any caster who is also on a team, promotes his team mates it is unethical, unprofessional and should not be done. And it's my opinion that your posts are full of fail. i'm curious what you opinion of the actual issue is, could you articulate it? Sure. Wolf isn't promoting his teammate for the sake of getting us to like him, he's just giving us facts that I, as well as most viewers find interesting. How are we going to be educated about what goes on in practice if the caster doesn't tell us. But then you jump in and say "NO HE IS OBVIOUSLY BIASED HE ISN'T ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT HIS TEAMMATE" He's just trying to clear up a misconception that TheBest is a terrible player. You claim that since he hasn't shown great macro games in GSL, Wolf isn't allowed to say that. I don't get that, as long as his casting isn't too biased who cares if he tells us what goes on at the fOu practice house?
i did not say he was biased or he was not allowed to talk about his team mate. in fact he was very fair throughout the series pointing out the best's mistakes, particularly in game 3. the problem i have is that as a commentator he should represent GOM and GSL not FXO and he has to separate himself as a caster and a FXO member.
also the best is considered a terrible player because, for the most part, he has not showed otherwise. the way his image will be changed is by showing good games, his games today were not bad, except for that drop in game 3 and no siege mode in game 2. if he has a san style rebirth then wolf can say this is what i have been waiting for because this is how he plays in the FXO house. but at the moment because wolf has a conflict of interest and the best is not showing great games now is not the time for wolf to say that the best is actually incredible and not an all in player when he has not shown it, to me that seems unprofessional.
i guess i view commentators higher than most and feel that they should follow certain standards and one of those is if they have a conflict of interest they should remove themselves so there can be no suggestion of bias.
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On August 08 2011 16:25 Zinthar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:18 AxionSteel wrote:
LOL @ the troll saying he just amoved marines. If any faction needs uber micro, it's terran. Terran is obviously extremely strong in the right hands, but it's very micro intensive, perhaps that is why it's so strong as it has a high skill ceiling.
Great play from Jjakji! Such Dynamic games. Gotta agree with this completely -- for the vast majority of players, probably up to and including the best foreigners (with maybe a few exceptions), the game is quite balanced. Some of these god tier Koreans, however, have marine micro that's so incredible that they're able to extract just that little extra DPS that seems to make a big difference? So perhaps at that level the terran ceiling is just a little bit higher. What's the answer? God tier zergling/baneling micro? Hard to say because the zerglings/banes lack range, but can close the space quickly if the engagement numbers and spacing are right... NesTea, show us the light!
Zergs can take away the micro with flanking or infestors and then finishing the marines off with banelings. Luvsic played well but he definitely didn't play on the same level as jjakji
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On August 08 2011 16:21 Megiddosc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:19 Hollis wrote:On August 08 2011 16:16 Ruscour wrote:On August 08 2011 16:13 EllipZ wrote:On August 08 2011 16:11 ShootingStars wrote:
Jjakji being good? More like Terran just makes marines and medivacs and A-move to stim to win. A move?are you blind? This is hilarious...god tier marine splitting = A-move apparently. Erm, god tier? More like he barely split at all; he was just so far ahead it didn't matter. Micro didn't win this terran the game, the zerg being bad won it. Methinks your problem is you actually listen to the casters. Pretty much this. I saw one really good split when there were a lot of banes, but the rest was target-firing (which is also really good). But yeah, the zerg lost by letting T get that massive medivac count going. Fungal ain't gonna do squat if the units you use it on are all getting healed, lol. And mutas? Even worse.
Thank you guys, It was getting annoying listening to all these people say how good his splitting was. Cause it wasn't. He just had so much dps that the banes all died, with minimal micro.
Jjakji deserved to win, he was the better player. Though his micro was nothing out of the ordinary that game.
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On August 08 2011 16:20 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:16 Hammer442 wrote:On August 08 2011 16:15 Cream wrote:On August 08 2011 16:13 Taf the Ghost wrote:On August 08 2011 16:12 ShootingStars wrote:On August 08 2011 16:12 Sc2Null wrote:
sighs..why can't we get really good zergs in code A....floating 1kmins and being supply blocked for about 45 secs isn't good. He was out of larvae... couldnt get the extra base up. It's normal. He ever make a macro hatch? Macro hatches shouldn't be necessary, he had no larva because he only has lings for defense early game which take up so much larva. Look how many he had to throw away vs the bunkers at the start. Roaches man. Tell that to all the top zergs who frequently make a macro hatch before a third these days. Losira, DRG and IdrA to name a few who always macro hatches Yea... macro hatch is pretty much a necessity in ZvT if you're going muta/ling/bling. You absolutely need a third hatch around the time your spire is finishing because without it you wouldn't have enough larva to spend your minerals (mutas so gas heavy). And you can't place that at an expansion because that generally spreads you out too much (need the mutas for map control). So your only option is a macro hatch. This is why I'm saying macro hatches shouldn't be necessary if you play safe by at least building a roach warren so you have the option of using less larva to defend if you think you can get away with using roaches (they cost 25 gas, they absolutely will not delay mutas THAT much). Too many times Zs go muta/ling/bane with absolutely no backup plan then they get massacred by mass marine/tank/medivac. With roaches you can also put pressure early game/even force the T to go marauders because you can hit them before siege tanks are out.
Sorry if I seem really adamant about roaches early game, trying to figure out how to safely block BFH/marine pressure early game. And a roach warren takes 150 minerals, it wouldn't be too hard to incorporate it into their BOs
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On August 08 2011 16:21 andaylin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:19 Hollis wrote:On August 08 2011 16:16 Ruscour wrote:On August 08 2011 16:13 EllipZ wrote:On August 08 2011 16:11 ShootingStars wrote:
Jjakji being good? More like Terran just makes marines and medivacs and A-move to stim to win. A move?are you blind? This is hilarious...god tier marine splitting = A-move apparently. Erm, god tier? More like he barely split at all; he was just so far ahead it didn't matter. Micro didn't win this terran the game, the zerg being bad won it. Methinks your problem is you actually listen to the casters. you must be blind if you couldn't see the epic splits in this series.
Well, in his defense, the Medivacs were in the way half the time, lol.
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On August 08 2011 16:28 Cream wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:20 DoomsVille wrote:On August 08 2011 16:16 Hammer442 wrote:On August 08 2011 16:15 Cream wrote:On August 08 2011 16:13 Taf the Ghost wrote:On August 08 2011 16:12 ShootingStars wrote:On August 08 2011 16:12 Sc2Null wrote:
sighs..why can't we get really good zergs in code A....floating 1kmins and being supply blocked for about 45 secs isn't good. He was out of larvae... couldnt get the extra base up. It's normal. He ever make a macro hatch? Macro hatches shouldn't be necessary, he had no larva because he only has lings for defense early game which take up so much larva. Look how many he had to throw away vs the bunkers at the start. Roaches man. Tell that to all the top zergs who frequently make a macro hatch before a third these days. Losira, DRG and IdrA to name a few who always macro hatches Yea... macro hatch is pretty much a necessity in ZvT if you're going muta/ling/bling. You absolutely need a third hatch around the time your spire is finishing because without it you wouldn't have enough larva to spend your minerals (mutas so gas heavy). And you can't place that at an expansion because that generally spreads you out too much (need the mutas for map control). So your only option is a macro hatch. This is why I'm saying macro hatches shouldn't be necessary if you play safe by at least building a roach warren so you have the option of using less larva to defend if you think you can get away with using roaches (they cost 25 gas, they absolutely will not delay mutas THAT much). Too many times Zs go muta/ling/bane with absolutely no backup plan then they get massacred by mass marine/tank/medivac. With roaches you can also put pressure early game/even force the T to go marauders because you can hit them before siege tanks are out. Sorry if I seem really adamant about roaches early game, trying to figure out how to safely block BFH/marine pressure early game. And a roach warren takes 150 minerals, it wouldn't be too hard to incorporate it into their BOs
In a Muta/Ling/Bling style, you use less Minerals, at full saturation on 2 bases, than you can spend, relative to Gas & Larve. That's why you build a Macro Hatch. Plus, it gives you the ability to store up a lot of extra Larve and flood Zerglings if you need to.
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On August 08 2011 16:28 Cream wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:20 DoomsVille wrote:On August 08 2011 16:16 Hammer442 wrote:On August 08 2011 16:15 Cream wrote:On August 08 2011 16:13 Taf the Ghost wrote:On August 08 2011 16:12 ShootingStars wrote:On August 08 2011 16:12 Sc2Null wrote:
sighs..why can't we get really good zergs in code A....floating 1kmins and being supply blocked for about 45 secs isn't good. He was out of larvae... couldnt get the extra base up. It's normal. He ever make a macro hatch? Macro hatches shouldn't be necessary, he had no larva because he only has lings for defense early game which take up so much larva. Look how many he had to throw away vs the bunkers at the start. Roaches man. Tell that to all the top zergs who frequently make a macro hatch before a third these days. Losira, DRG and IdrA to name a few who always macro hatches Yea... macro hatch is pretty much a necessity in ZvT if you're going muta/ling/bling. You absolutely need a third hatch around the time your spire is finishing because without it you wouldn't have enough larva to spend your minerals (mutas so gas heavy). And you can't place that at an expansion because that generally spreads you out too much (need the mutas for map control). So your only option is a macro hatch. This is why I'm saying macro hatches shouldn't be necessary if you play safe by at least building a roach warren so you have the option of using less larva to defend if you think you can get away with using roaches (they cost 25 gas, they absolutely will not delay mutas THAT much). Too many times Zs go muta/ling/bane with absolutely no backup plan then they get massacred by mass marine/tank/medivac. With roaches you can also put pressure early game/even force the T to go marauders because you can hit them before siege tanks are out. Sorry if I seem really adamant about roaches early game, trying to figure out how to safely block BFH/marine pressure early game. And a roach warren takes 150 minerals, it wouldn't be too hard to incorporate it into their BOs
Regardless of larva or not, he spent a lot less minerals/gas defending with lings than he would have with roaches. He defended perfectly and he could afford the macro hatch. Roaches really aren't that great for pressuring unless you invest a lot in them early on, and what you really want for map control are mutas, not slow roaches.
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EPT
