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On August 08 2011 16:44 Asha` wrote:
Jjakji's a fucking boss, anyone got a quick summary for me of the 2 games because he's the only player I really cared about seeing advance?
Since it's a fellow iccup follower;
Game 1;
2rax bunker pressure slowly denied with counter attacks on jjakji's reinforcements. Jjakji transitions into 2factory blue flame hellions into tank/rine to pressure the third. Takes out the third and sets up a contain outside the third. Luvsic wisely expands towards the opposite side of the map and evens out the game a bit. Both establish their gold but jjakji leaves a small force to defend the gold with PF while he takes out luvsics two new expansions and slowly wittles away luvsics forces with good micro.
Game 2;
Jjakji gets a little overeager/aggressive and does a rine/hellion elevator 1base without stim and sort of fails. Recoups with some macro and a third base and has some miracle MKP level marine splitting vs banes just BARELY able to counter luvsic's superior army even though his muta's had the chance to finish jjakji off. Jjakji continues with good splitting and micro to take more subtle leads and finally just finishes luvsic off.
Their are LR's for game 2 and someone who summed up game one better then me though a few pages back.
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On August 08 2011 16:37 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:28 Cream wrote:On August 08 2011 16:20 DoomsVille wrote:On August 08 2011 16:16 Hammer442 wrote:On August 08 2011 16:15 Cream wrote:On August 08 2011 16:13 Taf the Ghost wrote:On August 08 2011 16:12 ShootingStars wrote:On August 08 2011 16:12 Sc2Null wrote:
sighs..why can't we get really good zergs in code A....floating 1kmins and being supply blocked for about 45 secs isn't good. He was out of larvae... couldnt get the extra base up. It's normal. He ever make a macro hatch? Macro hatches shouldn't be necessary, he had no larva because he only has lings for defense early game which take up so much larva. Look how many he had to throw away vs the bunkers at the start. Roaches man. Tell that to all the top zergs who frequently make a macro hatch before a third these days. Losira, DRG and IdrA to name a few who always macro hatches Yea... macro hatch is pretty much a necessity in ZvT if you're going muta/ling/bling. You absolutely need a third hatch around the time your spire is finishing because without it you wouldn't have enough larva to spend your minerals (mutas so gas heavy). And you can't place that at an expansion because that generally spreads you out too much (need the mutas for map control). So your only option is a macro hatch. This is why I'm saying macro hatches shouldn't be necessary if you play safe by at least building a roach warren so you have the option of using less larva to defend if you think you can get away with using roaches (they cost 25 gas, they absolutely will not delay mutas THAT much). Too many times Zs go muta/ling/bane with absolutely no backup plan then they get massacred by mass marine/tank/medivac. With roaches you can also put pressure early game/even force the T to go marauders because you can hit them before siege tanks are out. Sorry if I seem really adamant about roaches early game, trying to figure out how to safely block BFH/marine pressure early game. And a roach warren takes 150 minerals, it wouldn't be too hard to incorporate it into their BOs The problem with roaches are they are worthless in the early game (except for defense). They can't get aggressive because they are so slow. How often do you see roaches causing substantial damage in the early game? Yea it happens... but it's rare. Lings atleast give you map control. Zerg's get greedy and try to avoid roaches as much as possible because they don't do anything but take gas, waste supply (they're extremely supply inefficient) and delay tech. And blings/spines can do really well holding off BFH/marines with proper control (although roaches are the easier solution). But anyways, I was just talking about macro hatches in general. If you don't need to make defensive roaches then you absolutely need a macro hatch. See, that's the thing, Zergs get too greedy for their own good right now in the matchup vT, making it too easy for Terran to pressure without consequence. For 150 minerals you get another option for defense that's easier to deal with pressure against BFH/marines than banes/spines (1 baneling is 75/25, and die outright, sometimes even without dealing damage) where you have the option of dealing pressure back if you want. And you can still have map control with speedlings, not like you have to go pure roaches. Just having the option for 3-5 roaches mixed with speedlings for defense can be a good thing early game imo
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On August 08 2011 16:47 Xacalite wrote:
Just started watching the vods now.
DREAM THEATER in the GSL!
bestest esports on the planet :D
I hope FD and DRG make it.
I'm so conflicted about FD's match. I love him, but I just want to give Maru a hug. Kid is damn cute and really impressive for his age.
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On August 08 2011 16:46 bennyaus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:43 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 08 2011 16:35 Sideburn wrote:
Man... we are going to enter the second era of "OMG TERRAN OP WTF LOLOL NERF" aren't we? It's frustrating. I mean, I like to see more than one race dominate, but I also like to see the metagame evolve naturally. I also think zerg is a good race even if they don't have the versatility of terran. I will admit protoss seems to have some fundamental issues in general... at the same time, I really loathe whining. I'll straight up admit that my opinions on balance aren't worth shit. I wish other people realized this. Its kinda funny this whole Terran OP is coming back when the most recent Code A final was a PvP and the most recent Code S final was a ZvZ. Not to mention that zergs won 2 major foreign events recently. The only event which Terran has outright dominated is when MLG decided that bringing over 4 Korean top level Terrans was a good idea.
Not to mention there's now more terrans than zerg and Protoss combined in the gsl
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On August 08 2011 16:47 Xacalite wrote:
Just started watching the vods now.
DREAM THEATER in the GSL!
bestest esports on the planet :D
I hope FD and DRG make it.
FD will meet Ganzi (and probably get eliminated) in the Ro16.
If all goes as I expect (please do!) then DRG will be up against sC in the Ro8.
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On August 08 2011 16:53 Cream wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:37 DoomsVille wrote:On August 08 2011 16:28 Cream wrote:On August 08 2011 16:20 DoomsVille wrote:On August 08 2011 16:16 Hammer442 wrote:On August 08 2011 16:15 Cream wrote:On August 08 2011 16:13 Taf the Ghost wrote:On August 08 2011 16:12 ShootingStars wrote:On August 08 2011 16:12 Sc2Null wrote:
sighs..why can't we get really good zergs in code A....floating 1kmins and being supply blocked for about 45 secs isn't good. He was out of larvae... couldnt get the extra base up. It's normal. He ever make a macro hatch? Macro hatches shouldn't be necessary, he had no larva because he only has lings for defense early game which take up so much larva. Look how many he had to throw away vs the bunkers at the start. Roaches man. Tell that to all the top zergs who frequently make a macro hatch before a third these days. Losira, DRG and IdrA to name a few who always macro hatches Yea... macro hatch is pretty much a necessity in ZvT if you're going muta/ling/bling. You absolutely need a third hatch around the time your spire is finishing because without it you wouldn't have enough larva to spend your minerals (mutas so gas heavy). And you can't place that at an expansion because that generally spreads you out too much (need the mutas for map control). So your only option is a macro hatch. This is why I'm saying macro hatches shouldn't be necessary if you play safe by at least building a roach warren so you have the option of using less larva to defend if you think you can get away with using roaches (they cost 25 gas, they absolutely will not delay mutas THAT much). Too many times Zs go muta/ling/bane with absolutely no backup plan then they get massacred by mass marine/tank/medivac. With roaches you can also put pressure early game/even force the T to go marauders because you can hit them before siege tanks are out. Sorry if I seem really adamant about roaches early game, trying to figure out how to safely block BFH/marine pressure early game. And a roach warren takes 150 minerals, it wouldn't be too hard to incorporate it into their BOs The problem with roaches are they are worthless in the early game (except for defense). They can't get aggressive because they are so slow. How often do you see roaches causing substantial damage in the early game? Yea it happens... but it's rare. Lings atleast give you map control. Zerg's get greedy and try to avoid roaches as much as possible because they don't do anything but take gas, waste supply (they're extremely supply inefficient) and delay tech. And blings/spines can do really well holding off BFH/marines with proper control (although roaches are the easier solution). But anyways, I was just talking about macro hatches in general. If you don't need to make defensive roaches then you absolutely need a macro hatch. See, that's the thing, Zergs get too greedy for their own good right now in the matchup vT, making it too easy for Terran to pressure without consequence. For 150 minerals you get another option for defense that's easier to deal with pressure against BFH/marines than banes/spines (1 baneling is 75/25, and die outright, sometimes even without dealing damage) where you have the option of dealing pressure back if you want. And you can still have map control with speedlings, not like you have to go pure roaches. Just having the option for 3-5 roaches mixed with speedlings for defense can be a good thing early game imo
A good zerg will do that, no need to mass roaches though so the macro hatch is still useful once you settle back in to your ling/bling/muta style when the pressure is slowing, if that's the way they are going. We just have yet to see a good Korean zerg response to the slayers style BFH marine push. People just have it fresh in their heads of the foreigners getting destroyed by it so they think it is unbeatable.. time will tell. MMA vs Nestea tomorrow should change that :D.
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On August 08 2011 16:28 Cream wrote:This is why I'm saying macro hatches shouldn't be necessary if you play safe by at least building a roach warren so you have the option of using less larva to defend if you think you can get away with using roaches (they cost 25 gas, they absolutely will not delay mutas THAT much). Too many times Zs go muta/ling/bane with absolutely no backup plan then they get massacred by mass marine/tank/medivac. With roaches you can also put pressure early game/even force the T to go marauders because you can hit them before siege tanks are out.
Sorry if I seem really adamant about roaches early game, trying to figure out how to safely block BFH/marine pressure early game. And a roach warren takes 150 minerals, it wouldn't be too hard to incorporate it into their BOs
Um, muta/bling is built to counter marine/tank, and marine/tank is built to counter muta/bling. It's pretty much THE story of ZvT and SC2's first year in general. Who has the upper hand changes, but the build framework is always the same.
It's a really good build that people stick with because it allows you to use micro and APM to gain the upper hand, rather than relying on countering the opponent's strategy. Because his build CAN counter yours, you know he isn't going to switch out of it.
The metagame isn't static though, you see a constant war between Z trying to add infestors or brood lords to break the T, the T adding more static D (and Thors) to nullify Mutas, T doing more early game harass (2 rax and bunkers in general), Z figuring out that early game 2 raxing and staying ahead, T doing more multipronged dropping/harass (MMA style).
The closest I think we've come to a shift in the metagame recently is the SlayerS style at MLG, with that crazy strong BFH elevator.
Z are somewhat stuck in a rut in TvZ atm, but to be fair they have been massively figuring out Protoss recently, and ZvZ is constantly changing. And what they're doing now isn't BAD, you just NEED to keep your economic advantage, and without that advantage Z have very few other options.
Notice that in both games Jjakji was able to either force army early or kill enough drones to be less than 5 or 10 behind in the midgame. That's HUGE and essentially Luvsic lost both games right there.
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On August 08 2011 16:56 Hammer442 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:53 Cream wrote:On August 08 2011 16:37 DoomsVille wrote:On August 08 2011 16:28 Cream wrote:On August 08 2011 16:20 DoomsVille wrote:On August 08 2011 16:16 Hammer442 wrote:On August 08 2011 16:15 Cream wrote:On August 08 2011 16:13 Taf the Ghost wrote:On August 08 2011 16:12 ShootingStars wrote:On August 08 2011 16:12 Sc2Null wrote:
sighs..why can't we get really good zergs in code A....floating 1kmins and being supply blocked for about 45 secs isn't good. He was out of larvae... couldnt get the extra base up. It's normal. He ever make a macro hatch? Macro hatches shouldn't be necessary, he had no larva because he only has lings for defense early game which take up so much larva. Look how many he had to throw away vs the bunkers at the start. Roaches man. Tell that to all the top zergs who frequently make a macro hatch before a third these days. Losira, DRG and IdrA to name a few who always macro hatches Yea... macro hatch is pretty much a necessity in ZvT if you're going muta/ling/bling. You absolutely need a third hatch around the time your spire is finishing because without it you wouldn't have enough larva to spend your minerals (mutas so gas heavy). And you can't place that at an expansion because that generally spreads you out too much (need the mutas for map control). So your only option is a macro hatch. This is why I'm saying macro hatches shouldn't be necessary if you play safe by at least building a roach warren so you have the option of using less larva to defend if you think you can get away with using roaches (they cost 25 gas, they absolutely will not delay mutas THAT much). Too many times Zs go muta/ling/bane with absolutely no backup plan then they get massacred by mass marine/tank/medivac. With roaches you can also put pressure early game/even force the T to go marauders because you can hit them before siege tanks are out. Sorry if I seem really adamant about roaches early game, trying to figure out how to safely block BFH/marine pressure early game. And a roach warren takes 150 minerals, it wouldn't be too hard to incorporate it into their BOs The problem with roaches are they are worthless in the early game (except for defense). They can't get aggressive because they are so slow. How often do you see roaches causing substantial damage in the early game? Yea it happens... but it's rare. Lings atleast give you map control. Zerg's get greedy and try to avoid roaches as much as possible because they don't do anything but take gas, waste supply (they're extremely supply inefficient) and delay tech. And blings/spines can do really well holding off BFH/marines with proper control (although roaches are the easier solution). But anyways, I was just talking about macro hatches in general. If you don't need to make defensive roaches then you absolutely need a macro hatch. See, that's the thing, Zergs get too greedy for their own good right now in the matchup vT, making it too easy for Terran to pressure without consequence. For 150 minerals you get another option for defense that's easier to deal with pressure against BFH/marines than banes/spines (1 baneling is 75/25, and die outright, sometimes even without dealing damage) where you have the option of dealing pressure back if you want. And you can still have map control with speedlings, not like you have to go pure roaches. Just having the option for 3-5 roaches mixed with speedlings for defense can be a good thing early game imo A good zerg will do that, no need to mass roaches though so the macro hatch is still useful once you settle back in to your ling/bling/muta style if that's the way they are going when the pressure is slowing. We just have yet to see a good Korean zerg response to the slayers style BFH marine push. MMA vs Nestea tomorrow should change that :D. Oh yeah no doubt, macro hatches are necessary for mutaling but there's a right way and a wrong way to go about it, wrong way being greedy so your economy gets damaged by pressure causing your macro hatch to make you vulnerable to more pressure. I wasn't advocating pure roaches vT, just having 3-5 as an easier/less larva demanding option to deal with pressure (so you can focus on more important things) so you can improve your economy for mutaling safer and quicker potentially. If anyone can figure out the response it'll be Nestea, I really wouldn't be surprised if he does a 14 gas/pool opening following it up with a hatch then roach warren just for the option. Hellions really just get shut down v Roaches because they can't even kite them anymore
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On August 08 2011 16:15 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:13 MooMooMugi wrote:On August 08 2011 16:12 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 08 2011 16:11 ShootingStars wrote:
Jjakji being good? More like Terran just makes marines and medivacs and A-move to stim to win. Hahahhha yeah, he's a-moving. nice one We all know marine splitting does NOT take any APM to do at all .____. maybe the marine splits happen automatically on the collectors edition of the game, I knew I should have bought it.
Yeah that's why top 30 is all terran on the Korean server because the korean client has a feature where it auto splits their marines for them without having to use any apm.
On August 08 2011 16:10 andaylin wrote:
this is so reminiscent of mkp open season 2. equal ratio of medivacs to marines and unbelievable splitting.
And Jjakji was also in open season 2.
and guys for calling Terran/Marines op... quit whining the zerg lost the game himself by not teching to infestors quick enough and being indecisive.
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On August 08 2011 16:38 iyoume wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 02:20 MrCon wrote:
Will Fruitdealer and MKP disappear forever ? / Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:18 MrCon wrote:
jjakji = mkp when he was good (nowadays mkp doesn't even do mkp splits anymore) dude!  sounds like you givin' up on marineking why you say such things! YOU MUST BELIEVE!
I know I'm angry at myself to say such things, I'm a MKP fan since the very first day (well, maybe not, in fact since his match vs fruitdealer). But MKP is disappointing me so much these days, I can't believe he's not code S anymore TT
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On August 08 2011 16:58 fant0m wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:28 Cream wrote:This is why I'm saying macro hatches shouldn't be necessary if you play safe by at least building a roach warren so you have the option of using less larva to defend if you think you can get away with using roaches (they cost 25 gas, they absolutely will not delay mutas THAT much). Too many times Zs go muta/ling/bane with absolutely no backup plan then they get massacred by mass marine/tank/medivac. With roaches you can also put pressure early game/even force the T to go marauders because you can hit them before siege tanks are out.
Sorry if I seem really adamant about roaches early game, trying to figure out how to safely block BFH/marine pressure early game. And a roach warren takes 150 minerals, it wouldn't be too hard to incorporate it into their BOs
Um, muta/bling is built to counter marine/tank, and marine/tank is built to counter muta/bling. It's pretty much THE story of ZvT and SC2's first year in general. Who has the upper hand changes, but the build framework is always the same. It's a really good build that people stick with because it allows you to use micro and APM to gain the upper hand, rather than relying on countering the opponent's strategy. Because his build CAN counter yours, you know he isn't going to switch out of it. The metagame isn't static though, you see a constant war between Z trying to add infestors or brood lords to break the T, the T adding more static D (and Thors) to nullify Mutas, T doing more early game harass (2 rax and bunkers in general), Z figuring out that early game 2 raxing and staying ahead, T doing more multipronged dropping/harass (MMA style). The closest I think we've come to a shift in the metagame recently is the SlayerS style at MLG, with that crazy strong BFH elevator. Z are somewhat stuck in a rut in TvZ atm, but to be fair they have been massively figuring out Protoss recently, and ZvZ is constantly changing. And what they're doing now isn't BAD, you just NEED to keep your economic advantage, and without that advantage Z have very few other options. Notice that in both games Jjakji was able to either force army early or kill enough drones to be less than 5 or 10 behind in the midgame. That's HUGE and essentially Luvsic lost both games right there.
I've been playing Z since SC2 was released, I know what ZvT is like  And yes, Jjakji was forcing an army/was able to pressure well early, but I wonder how he was able to? Luvsic was being greedy and went hatch first and in the first game it backfired on him because of 2 rax pressure, 2nd game BFH/marines forces a LOT of lings taking away larva being used for drones. Opening up with a 14 gas/pool is the safest meaning it doesn't make you vulnerable to 2 rax pressure compared to hatch first (1st game I have no doubt he would've had a better economy had he gone 14 pool/gas), and also gives you an option for a roach warren - roaches are more larva efficient and are efficient at dealing with BFH/marines. If you have roaches, Terran can't force armies to the point where your economy suffers heavily like you do when you only have lings as an army option since roaches are more larva efficient. Meaning you can drone more safer and more frequently, theoretically. At least put the goddamn roach warren down so you can throw some roaches into the mix than charging marines/BFH with mass lings, it's just stupid. I'm not saying muta ling is BAD, I'm saying roaches might be the response that is needed against BFH/marines to keep the Z's economic advantage/not get their drone count roasted because all they have are lings/spines to defend with.
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On August 08 2011 16:54 Phyrful wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:46 bennyaus wrote:On August 08 2011 16:43 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 08 2011 16:35 Sideburn wrote:
Man... we are going to enter the second era of "OMG TERRAN OP WTF LOLOL NERF" aren't we? It's frustrating. I mean, I like to see more than one race dominate, but I also like to see the metagame evolve naturally. I also think zerg is a good race even if they don't have the versatility of terran. I will admit protoss seems to have some fundamental issues in general... at the same time, I really loathe whining. I'll straight up admit that my opinions on balance aren't worth shit. I wish other people realized this. Its kinda funny this whole Terran OP is coming back when the most recent Code A final was a PvP and the most recent Code S final was a ZvZ. Not to mention that zergs won 2 major foreign events recently. The only event which Terran has outright dominated is when MLG decided that bringing over 4 Korean top level Terrans was a good idea. Not to mention there's now more terrans than zerg and Protoss combined in the gsl
And the best protoss in the world, MC, lost in a PvP and another strong protoss, Huk, lost in a PvP.
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On August 08 2011 17:05 skrzmark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 08 2011 16:13 MooMooMugi wrote:On August 08 2011 16:12 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 08 2011 16:11 ShootingStars wrote:
Jjakji being good? More like Terran just makes marines and medivacs and A-move to stim to win. Hahahhha yeah, he's a-moving. nice one We all know marine splitting does NOT take any APM to do at all .____. maybe the marine splits happen automatically on the collectors edition of the game, I knew I should have bought it. Yeah that's why top 30 is all terran on the Korean server because the korean client has a feature where it auto splits their marines for them without having to use any apm. Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 16:10 andaylin wrote:
this is so reminiscent of mkp open season 2. equal ratio of medivacs to marines and unbelievable splitting. And Jjakji was also in open season 2. and guys for calling Terran/Marines op... quit whining the zerg lost the game himself by not teching to infestors quick enough and being indecisive.
No one's really calling terrans OP right now, jjakji no doubt outplayed luvsic which was plainly obvious. People ARE wondering what Z can do as a response to the metagame shift in ZvT however. Two different things.
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Well at least there isnt many Mirrors today.
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Dang, got every game wrong. Time to change that trend and get all right. DRG fighting!
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On August 08 2011 17:17 SIS7G wrote:
Dang, got every game wrong. Time to change that trend and get all right. DRG fighting!
that's terrible I hope DRG loses for you so that continues to happen for you >=) but you seriously voted for banbans?
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Wowie. As Huk would say, I've got yellow fever.
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oh my 3 terrans and 1 Zerg trhough in first sitting, at least only a possible amount of 2 in the 2nd sitting!!!
DRG and Smart!!! Come ON!!!!
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I sincerely hope this was the last time we saw BanBans and TheBest in Code A. I hope Maru can come back, even though I'm glad FD could stay in Code A.
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On August 08 2011 17:17 SIS7G wrote:
Dang, got every game wrong. Time to change that trend and get all right. DRG fighting!
that's terrible I hope DRG loses for you so that continues to happen for you >=) but you seriously voted for banbans?
and theBest? xD
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EPT
