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On November 26 2010 22:15 spacemonkeyy wrote:
Wish-list
-Very slight nerf on marines (similar to the zealot nerf for the silver 2v2 players)
-Mass repair nerf so that mass repairing does not make bunkers/ Planetary Fortresses so strong
-A 3rd protoss dectection option such as a sentry spell researched from the cyber core.
i Do not think that Repair needs a Mass nerf, However i think observer should be made as a Gateway unit and require Stargate/Robo/or that templar thing which upgrades charge and blink(forgot how that building is called), I think this will give protoss different opening tach options.
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On November 26 2010 22:33 palookieblue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 22:28 bokeevboke wrote:On November 26 2010 22:24 palookieblue wrote:On November 26 2010 22:04 Woony wrote:On November 26 2010 22:00 sleepingdog wrote:
Ok, hate to say this as a protoss-player, but wtf 2 gate colossi (!) + expand (!!!) is NOT supposed to survive against ANY timing-attack.
Cmon guys, when we play against zerg and zerg goes for muta/ling WITHOUT spine-crawlers or massive early ling-forces...we crush them with a 9-10 minute gateway-only force. Rightly so.
This 2 gate colossi-tech while expanding is a retarded build, day9 has said it, tyler has said it and honest to god I can NOT understand why korean pro-tosses are still doing it.
Now I'd love to see Inca @Dreamhack go for the same strat and getting crushed by Goody just to prove this point.
3 gate pressure expand, early immortal expand, DT-harass into expand, void-ray-harass into expand...Toss is definitely not as helpless as many seem to believe, unfortunately the current korean protoss-elite is seemingly still too stubborn to accept that the greedy tech-builds simply don't work anymore. 2 gate colossi expand is a build from like 1-2 months ago, we toss-players need to get rid of it once and for all. It's not safe and loses against a broad variety of different strats. What is he supposed to do? Go Gateway only or Gateway + Immortal on 1 base against that unitmix? lol. How is that supposed to work? PDD owns stalkers, marines demolish immortal and siege tanks rape zealots and immortals without shields. You selected protoss units and then their Terran counters. Look, I can do the same. 'zOMG how is a Terran supposed to hold when: Immortals destroy siege tanks and Marauders, Colossi splash obliterate marines/scvs and not to mention sentries which almost nullify any advantage stim gives, as well as stalkers outranging the marines?' (: at least the previous post is talking about a REAL POSSIBLE situation. You suggest an unrealistic one, where protoss has bazzilion of gas. Well if we're bringing this back to the game itself, Genius did have an extra base (for a short time, granted), and Raven/Tanks/Banshee aren't exactly gas cheap either. Not sure what your point is here. All I meant was to show that you can't analyse a confrontation like that. It's not just 'draw a line from the left picture to the matching right picture'.
Terran can spend all their gas on ridiculously good tech units and still have the incredibly useful marines to use as a mineral dump, the closest thing protoss has to match marines in general utility/mineral heaviness is stalkers... LOL. Zealots will get evaporated, sentrys do almost no damage and cost gas (so they are usless unless you are against heavy bio.) Immortals are only good at absorbing damage but rarely get within range of siege tanks, templar come too late, charge comes too late. So you can see how protoss's options are limited, you can either gamble on stargate, or go for collosi.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
rather than nerfing terran, maybe give protoss some help?
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Wow all these people suggesting balance changes... 1-base timing pushes punishes econ-based builds hard to a point that small mistakes by the defending player will cost him the game.. in this case, some buildings in siege tank range and colossus getting sniped.
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On November 26 2010 22:15 spacemonkeyy wrote:
Just a few points.
Genius had this EXACT build played against him in his last match against LiberoPrime- almost to a tee. The build is very common so much so that a TL poster (Alexanjdro?) called it at the 3 minute mark (4 tanks, 30 marines, 4 banshees, 1 raven and 10 scvs push at the 11 minute mark). Genius was only able to hold on in that game due to some poor terran micro.
Genius does not need to see every single unit to know what hes against, its a common build in the ladder he played it last game, see that many banshees without cloak is a big tell. 1 Base toss has an extremely hard time dealing with that many marines with sieges in the back let alone the raven and banshees forcing stalkers.
IMO there is no way he could have held that without collosus, and there is no way he could have held that with one base collosus.
To me the free bunkers and the repairs scv's do is a kick in the teeth, I would much prefer SCV damage to scale so that the more you have the less they contribute i.e 1 at 100%, a 2nd one only adds 75% a 3rd 50% etc.
Point is its an extremely abusive all in push- TSL Rain did not play exceptionally, he executed a build well he didn't have to alter it or deal with other pressure. Toss are forced robo they really don't have much hope except hoping for some poor terran Micro.
My main problem with the current state of T V P is that anything but opening robo is almost potentially GG whilst Terran can really do what they like. P V Z on the other hand I think really the toss tech tree is a lot more open and viable.
Wish-list
-Very slight nerf on marines (similar to the zealot nerf for the silver 2v2 players)
-Mass repair nerf so that mass repairing does not make bunkers/ Planetary Fortresses so strong
-A 3rd protoss dectection option such as a sentry spell researched from the cyber core.
def. agree with whats said here. this build is really tough to stop even with more gateway units the PDD combined with the high dps of banshee/marine makes it difficult without a collosus to stop this army. Templar tech seems out of the question as it would take too long with all the research needed. And any build without a robo is hard countered by cloak banshees.
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On November 26 2010 22:48 DarkRise wrote:
david kim pointed out all the things in the post
Banshees, Repair and Thor but if they do this its like 4 terran nerf in a row which is why they are avoiding this. The good thing is they NOTICE this and that's what they get for having a OP race in the beginning -.-
Anyways Imbalance stuff is off topic here so lets get on topic
genius can be stupid sometimes just like his match against tester in all star
Well they didnt mind nerfing protoss in 16 straight patches, or around that, but w/e dont mind me im just a depressed toss user...
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On November 26 2010 22:51 HuHEN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 22:33 palookieblue wrote:On November 26 2010 22:28 bokeevboke wrote:On November 26 2010 22:24 palookieblue wrote:On November 26 2010 22:04 Woony wrote:On November 26 2010 22:00 sleepingdog wrote:
Ok, hate to say this as a protoss-player, but wtf 2 gate colossi (!) + expand (!!!) is NOT supposed to survive against ANY timing-attack.
Cmon guys, when we play against zerg and zerg goes for muta/ling WITHOUT spine-crawlers or massive early ling-forces...we crush them with a 9-10 minute gateway-only force. Rightly so.
This 2 gate colossi-tech while expanding is a retarded build, day9 has said it, tyler has said it and honest to god I can NOT understand why korean pro-tosses are still doing it.
Now I'd love to see Inca @Dreamhack go for the same strat and getting crushed by Goody just to prove this point.
3 gate pressure expand, early immortal expand, DT-harass into expand, void-ray-harass into expand...Toss is definitely not as helpless as many seem to believe, unfortunately the current korean protoss-elite is seemingly still too stubborn to accept that the greedy tech-builds simply don't work anymore. 2 gate colossi expand is a build from like 1-2 months ago, we toss-players need to get rid of it once and for all. It's not safe and loses against a broad variety of different strats. What is he supposed to do? Go Gateway only or Gateway + Immortal on 1 base against that unitmix? lol. How is that supposed to work? PDD owns stalkers, marines demolish immortal and siege tanks rape zealots and immortals without shields. You selected protoss units and then their Terran counters. Look, I can do the same. 'zOMG how is a Terran supposed to hold when: Immortals destroy siege tanks and Marauders, Colossi splash obliterate marines/scvs and not to mention sentries which almost nullify any advantage stim gives, as well as stalkers outranging the marines?' (: at least the previous post is talking about a REAL POSSIBLE situation. You suggest an unrealistic one, where protoss has bazzilion of gas. Well if we're bringing this back to the game itself, Genius did have an extra base (for a short time, granted), and Raven/Tanks/Banshee aren't exactly gas cheap either. Not sure what your point is here. All I meant was to show that you can't analyse a confrontation like that. It's not just 'draw a line from the left picture to the matching right picture'. Terran can spend all their gas on ridiculously good tech units and still have the incredibly useful marines to use as a mineral dump, the closest thing protoss has to match marines in general utility/mineral heaviness is stalkers... LOL. Zealots will get evaporated, sentrys do almost no damage and cost gas (so they are usless unless you are against heavy bio.) Immortals are only good at absorbing damage but rarely get within range of siege tanks, templar come too late, charge comes too late. So you can see how protoss's options are limited, you can either gamble on stargate, or go for collosi.
I know, I'm repeating myself....but getting charge vs terran SHOULD be like getting stimpack vs protoss. Charge is really what makes zealots halfway-decent. But not only is it ridiculously expensive (who thought of making charge double the cost of stim? seriously? lol? facepalm anyone?), it is on a building you can NOT get early because you need a robo to "not" die vs banshees.
Once terran has concussive, stim and combat shields, protoss NEEDS chargelots to be on "somewhat" even footing on the ground. But chargelots are not an option. This is in my opinion the core problem of the whole PvT matchup. That the forced robo holds you back tremendously, you can't really get the units you really want, because the metagame-threat of cloak is way, way too heavy.
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On November 26 2010 22:53 lolaloc wrote:
Wow all these people suggesting balance changes... 1-base timing pushes punishes econ-based builds hard to a point that small mistakes by the defending player will cost him the game.. in this case, some buildings in siege tank range and colossus getting sniped.
1 base timing pushes punish 2 base builds when they attack early, when one player hasn't yet gotten a return on their investment.
The marinebansheetank comes after the natural has paid for itself. I guarantee that Genius's total army value (and, obviously, income) was higher than that of T's.
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What the fuck happened to the ban on balance talk in these threads? I liked that ban.
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In a way I'm happy Genius lost, because now we can shift our focus to the other Tosses advancing trough and see if there might be a hero amongst them. While Genius is a very, very good player I feel he doesnt have the *wow* factor (god that sounds gay), when I see him play or win I dont get the level of amazement of say a Tester in his early GSL1 performances.
Perhaps Guineapig or ChoaFou will bring some hope to the Protoss race, who knows. I'm still not at all sure if Protoss is underpowered, the one thing I see that could indicate a problem is the amount of pro-Protosses dying to timing pushes and all-in's. I just have not seen this happen that much to pro's of other races, and while it's easy to just yell the pro-Tosses are weaker players I feel this might be an indication of a problem.
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On November 26 2010 23:18 The KY wrote:
What the fuck happened to the ban on balance talk in these threads? I liked that ban.
I agree.
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On November 26 2010 23:18 The KY wrote:
What the fuck happened to the ban on balance talk in these threads? I liked that ban.
its better than starting a new thread, games are over anyway.
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Aw 0-4 today on liquibet.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 26 2010 22:56 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 22:51 HuHEN wrote:On November 26 2010 22:33 palookieblue wrote:On November 26 2010 22:28 bokeevboke wrote:On November 26 2010 22:24 palookieblue wrote:On November 26 2010 22:04 Woony wrote:On November 26 2010 22:00 sleepingdog wrote:
Ok, hate to say this as a protoss-player, but wtf 2 gate colossi (!) + expand (!!!) is NOT supposed to survive against ANY timing-attack.
Cmon guys, when we play against zerg and zerg goes for muta/ling WITHOUT spine-crawlers or massive early ling-forces...we crush them with a 9-10 minute gateway-only force. Rightly so.
This 2 gate colossi-tech while expanding is a retarded build, day9 has said it, tyler has said it and honest to god I can NOT understand why korean pro-tosses are still doing it.
Now I'd love to see Inca @Dreamhack go for the same strat and getting crushed by Goody just to prove this point.
3 gate pressure expand, early immortal expand, DT-harass into expand, void-ray-harass into expand...Toss is definitely not as helpless as many seem to believe, unfortunately the current korean protoss-elite is seemingly still too stubborn to accept that the greedy tech-builds simply don't work anymore. 2 gate colossi expand is a build from like 1-2 months ago, we toss-players need to get rid of it once and for all. It's not safe and loses against a broad variety of different strats. What is he supposed to do? Go Gateway only or Gateway + Immortal on 1 base against that unitmix? lol. How is that supposed to work? PDD owns stalkers, marines demolish immortal and siege tanks rape zealots and immortals without shields. You selected protoss units and then their Terran counters. Look, I can do the same. 'zOMG how is a Terran supposed to hold when: Immortals destroy siege tanks and Marauders, Colossi splash obliterate marines/scvs and not to mention sentries which almost nullify any advantage stim gives, as well as stalkers outranging the marines?' (: at least the previous post is talking about a REAL POSSIBLE situation. You suggest an unrealistic one, where protoss has bazzilion of gas. Well if we're bringing this back to the game itself, Genius did have an extra base (for a short time, granted), and Raven/Tanks/Banshee aren't exactly gas cheap either. Not sure what your point is here. All I meant was to show that you can't analyse a confrontation like that. It's not just 'draw a line from the left picture to the matching right picture'. Terran can spend all their gas on ridiculously good tech units and still have the incredibly useful marines to use as a mineral dump, the closest thing protoss has to match marines in general utility/mineral heaviness is stalkers... LOL. Zealots will get evaporated, sentrys do almost no damage and cost gas (so they are usless unless you are against heavy bio.) Immortals are only good at absorbing damage but rarely get within range of siege tanks, templar come too late, charge comes too late. So you can see how protoss's options are limited, you can either gamble on stargate, or go for collosi. I know, I'm repeating myself....but getting charge vs terran SHOULD be like getting stimpack vs protoss. Charge is really what makes zealots halfway-decent. But not only is it ridiculously expensive (who thought of making charge double the cost of stim? seriously? lol? facepalm anyone?), it is on a building you can NOT get early because you need a robo to "not" die vs banshees. Once terran has concussive, stim and combat shields, protoss NEEDS chargelots to be on "somewhat" even footing on the ground. But chargelots are not an option. This is in my opinion the core problem of the whole PvT matchup. That the forced robo holds you back tremendously, you can't really get the units you really want, because the metagame-threat of cloak is way, way too heavy.
Charge is not hard to get in early game, we manage to get colossi from 1 base we could do charge with ease as well, problem is what you will give up to get the charge. Being forced to get a robo early is the biggest set back in protoss strategy and its really making us not really have a choice for tech path.
Most of the PvT GSL games the build order was almost a blind choice with scouting just to make army/engagement positions and economy decision than to choose the tech path at all. They could make observer slightly more expensive but comming out of cybercore, come from nexus with some buildings requirements or give the stargate an option to build observer as well.
Sad day for Protoss community, hope oGsMC and HongUnPrime make up for the loss of Genius or maybe that Choya seeing how the fOu are doing well. 
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On November 26 2010 22:49 iMox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 22:15 spacemonkeyy wrote:
Wish-list
-Very slight nerf on marines (similar to the zealot nerf for the silver 2v2 players)
-Mass repair nerf so that mass repairing does not make bunkers/ Planetary Fortresses so strong
-A 3rd protoss dectection option such as a sentry spell researched from the cyber core.
i Do not think that Repair needs a Mass nerf, However i think observer should be made as a Gateway unit and require Stargate/Robo/or that templar thing which upgrades charge and blink(forgot how that building is called), I think this will give protoss different opening tach options.
Just to clarify not a Mass nerf on repair, just a nerf on mass scv simultaneous repair whether it be capped like the max input from gas is 3 per gas geyser or scaled I don't really mind but it seems to be unbalanced and really encourages this sort of all in play and also makes planetary forces near on impossible to kill with anything but your whole army unlike fragile nexus. Also another problem is how good marines are against a lot of toss tech units besides collosus for instance. People think tanks are the threat in that game I would say the 30 marines scattered around them.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I asked oGsMC if he thought the build Rain used was imba, and said the TL forums were crying over it. He said "No, tell them to trust me on this one".
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On November 27 2010 00:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I asked oGsMC if he thought the build Rain used was imba, and said the TL forums were crying over it. He said "No, tell them to trust me on this one".
Jinro!!!! Good luck in your games,
Kick Moon's {redacted}
btw, I'm really curious, what does John do in the GSL besides translate?
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On November 27 2010 00:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I asked oGsMC if he thought the build Rain used was imba, and said the TL forums were crying over it. He said "No, tell them to trust me on this one".
Guess he has a specific build to deal with that, hope to see it soon in action in the GSL so we can all learn.
Also good luck on Ro32 against Moon, cheering for you. 
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On November 27 2010 00:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I asked oGsMC if he thought the build Rain used was imba, and said the TL forums were crying over it. He said "No, tell them to trust me on this one".
lol, hope you don't tell them every time we cry, or they'd think we cry all the time  I think Genius had pretty bad positioning, looked like he was caught a bit off guard.
Really hope you and oGsMC go far, best of luck.
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On November 27 2010 00:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I asked oGsMC if he thought the build Rain used was imba, and said the TL forums were crying over it. He said "No, tell them to trust me on this one".
cant wait to see what MC does against this :D
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EPT
