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On November 26 2010 21:51 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 21:48 billyX333 wrote:On November 26 2010 21:42 Shikyo wrote:On November 26 2010 21:40 billyX333 wrote:On November 26 2010 21:34 Shikyo wrote:On November 26 2010 21:26 billyX333 wrote:On November 26 2010 21:25 gnutz wrote:
It was no All-In. He pulled only half his SCVs
GG Protoss it was definitely all in... if that attack doesnt inflict significant damage he loses, no question about it It was 8-9 SCVs, and that attack was not going to fail. The worst that would happen is the P would barely hold it off and T would be able to contain, but the chance of getting at least the natural expansion and being able to safely expand himself made it so that I really wouldn't consider that an all-in. It's like... 10pool vs 16hatch, you can consider it an all-in because you have to deal damage, but the chance to deal damage is so high that it really isn't an all-in imo. Its an all in build. I cant believe this is even being disputed. He had no CC building and genius had colossus tech, an expo and like 40 probes. If that attack ends in an army trade or even 20 probes + army trade, then he loses He only needed to get the Nexus and set up a contain, that was almost guaranteed to happen. He didn't need to kill the P right away, in my opinion. It was a timing attack to hit the Protoss expansion, yes, but that doesn't make it an all-in. He could have expanded just fine after taking out the Nexus and forcing Genius up his ramp. well no shit. wtf is your definition of an all in? Inflict game ending damage or LOSE. his build hard counters FE colossus build so yeah no shit it was guaranteed success but its not like he KNEW that when he began executing his all in build My definition is such that a timing attack against an expansion isn't an all-in, and how is going back to even bases "game-ending damage"? Like, a Terran can midgame-push a Zerg's third off 2 bases and have great chances to take it out... it's not an all-in. It's just a timing attack. Sigh. What was the worst-case scenario? He was pretty much guaranteed to cut the ramp circulation off and hence be able to take the natural out, even if he after that got broken, he'd have been totally fine. But sure, feel free to think that every timing attack that doesn't expand before 5 minutes is all-in if it makes you feel good.
1 base timing attacks with 10 workers and no attempt at expanding are all-ins
.. in my opinion
we'll have to agree to disagree on this one because i also consider 1 gas quad gate builds (cutting probes at 19) as all-in
because i have never ever lost vs them while keeping up my expo
also: i dont consider 2 base timing attacks on a 3rd as all-in
2base timing attacks always involve a transition even if it doesnt work. you dont have to commit to the attack at all while you HAVE to commit to 1basing
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Why are people still shocked that random terrans beat top protosses? It's happening all over the place, you should've got used to it by now.
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TSL rain is not a random terran and Genius played poorly
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TSL rain is no doubt good but I dont see how you can say genius played poorly.
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Genius played poorly? Right..., sure he did *rolls eyes*
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Ok, hate to say this as a protoss-player, but wtf 2 gate colossi (!) + expand (!!!) is NOT supposed to survive against ANY timing-attack.
Cmon guys, when we play against zerg and zerg goes for muta/ling WITHOUT spine-crawlers or massive early ling-forces...we crush them with a 9-10 minute gateway-only force. Rightly so.
This 2 gate colossi-tech while expanding is a retarded build, day9 has said it, tyler has said it and honest to god I can NOT understand why korean pro-tosses are still doing it.
Now I'd love to see Inca @Dreamhack go for the same strat and getting crushed by Goody just to prove this point.
3 gate pressure expand, early immortal expand, DT-harass into expand, void-ray-harass into expand...Toss is definitely not as helpless as many seem to believe, unfortunately the current korean protoss-elite is seemingly still too stubborn to accept that the greedy tech-builds simply don't work anymore. 2 gate colossi expand is a build from like 1-2 months ago, we toss-players need to get rid of it once and for all. It's not safe and loses against a broad variety of different strats.
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Rain IS random terran. He is around since GSL 1 and didn't achieve anything.
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On November 26 2010 21:57 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 21:51 Shikyo wrote:On November 26 2010 21:48 billyX333 wrote:On November 26 2010 21:42 Shikyo wrote:On November 26 2010 21:40 billyX333 wrote:On November 26 2010 21:34 Shikyo wrote:On November 26 2010 21:26 billyX333 wrote:On November 26 2010 21:25 gnutz wrote:
It was no All-In. He pulled only half his SCVs
GG Protoss it was definitely all in... if that attack doesnt inflict significant damage he loses, no question about it It was 8-9 SCVs, and that attack was not going to fail. The worst that would happen is the P would barely hold it off and T would be able to contain, but the chance of getting at least the natural expansion and being able to safely expand himself made it so that I really wouldn't consider that an all-in. It's like... 10pool vs 16hatch, you can consider it an all-in because you have to deal damage, but the chance to deal damage is so high that it really isn't an all-in imo. Its an all in build. I cant believe this is even being disputed. He had no CC building and genius had colossus tech, an expo and like 40 probes. If that attack ends in an army trade or even 20 probes + army trade, then he loses He only needed to get the Nexus and set up a contain, that was almost guaranteed to happen. He didn't need to kill the P right away, in my opinion. It was a timing attack to hit the Protoss expansion, yes, but that doesn't make it an all-in. He could have expanded just fine after taking out the Nexus and forcing Genius up his ramp. well no shit. wtf is your definition of an all in? Inflict game ending damage or LOSE. his build hard counters FE colossus build so yeah no shit it was guaranteed success but its not like he KNEW that when he began executing his all in build My definition is such that a timing attack against an expansion isn't an all-in, and how is going back to even bases "game-ending damage"? Like, a Terran can midgame-push a Zerg's third off 2 bases and have great chances to take it out... it's not an all-in. It's just a timing attack. Sigh. What was the worst-case scenario? He was pretty much guaranteed to cut the ramp circulation off and hence be able to take the natural out, even if he after that got broken, he'd have been totally fine. But sure, feel free to think that every timing attack that doesn't expand before 5 minutes is all-in if it makes you feel good. 1 base timing attacks with 10 workers and no attempt at expanding are all-ins .. in my opinion we'll have to agree to disagree on this one because i also consider 1 gas quad gate builds (cutting probes at 19) as all-in because i have never ever lost vs them while keeping up my expo also: i dont consider 2 base timing attacks on a 3rd as all-in 2base timing attacks always involve a transition even if it doesnt work. you dont have to commit to the attack at all while you HAVE to commit to 1basing
Not entirely correct. Terran's 1-base income is only slightly lower than Protoss's 2-base income at that saturation due to muling, and Terran can quite easily cut a macro round and use excess minerals to start a CC when pushing. Granted, he pulled scvs, but that attack didn't need to end the game.
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On November 26 2010 21:54 Orpheusz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 21:52 SKtheAnathema wrote:On November 26 2010 21:48 andrewwiggin wrote:
i dont want to theorycraft, just saying him assuming cloaked banshees cost him. cloaked banshees and what rain did are very different
Thats the problem. How can he NOT assume cloaked banshees? Its the reason he went robo in the first place =/ nono i meant when he used the observer to scout and saw a banshee pop, tech lab factory. i THINK he went straight home with the obs instead of hanging around to see what else rain was doing. i don't know if he would've held it off even if he did know, but i think he would've positioned better pre-attack. He probably could've stuck around a BIT longer but afaik you can't tell whether or not the tech lab is researching (unless they changed this a while ago haven't really bothered paying attention  )
He saw 1 banshee. I think as a pro he should really know that cloak research takes the time of 2 banshees. And Idra is right. Genius is really greedy with his builds. I'm sad that it might be another T and Z Ro4 again. No toss QQ.
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On November 26 2010 21:29 Plexa wrote:
Yeah that build isn't unstoppable guys... You can watch the most recent go4sc2 final (nightend vs some terran) to see how to stop it... Not that I think the push is unstoppable, but Nightend didn't hold off TSL_Rain's build at all. He held off something similar that had hellions and ZERO siege tanks. Obviously how those two compositions play out against Colossus is very different.
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yeah. people just need to remember that genius is very build order-centric too and has beaten lots of good players with powerful timing attacks. can't really jump to the conclusion that just because genius is more known than rain, therefore that terran push is unstoppable because rain beat him with it.
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sooo . . . we got GuineaPig right?
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On November 26 2010 22:00 sleepingdog wrote:
Ok, hate to say this as a protoss-player, but wtf 2 gate colossi (!) + expand (!!!) is NOT supposed to survive against ANY timing-attack.
That's right, BUT the problem is, you need them Colossi this early to hold ANY only bio or bio + raven pushes. It's just retarded.
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On November 26 2010 22:00 sleepingdog wrote:
Ok, hate to say this as a protoss-player, but wtf 2 gate colossi (!) + expand (!!!) is NOT supposed to survive against ANY timing-attack.
Cmon guys, when we play against zerg and zerg goes for muta/ling WITHOUT spine-crawlers or massive early ling-forces...we crush them with a 9-10 minute gateway-only force. Rightly so.
This 2 gate colossi-tech while expanding is a retarded build, day9 has said it, tyler has said it and honest to god I can NOT understand why korean pro-tosses are still doing it.
Now I'd love to see Inca @Dreamhack go for the same strat and getting crushed by Goody just to prove this point.
3 gate pressure expand, early immortal expand, DT-harass into expand, void-ray-harass into expand...Toss is definitely not as helpless as many seem to believe, unfortunately the current korean protoss-elite is seemingly still too stubborn to accept that the greedy tech-builds simply don't work anymore. 2 gate colossi expand is a build from like 1-2 months ago, we toss-players need to get rid of it once and for all. It's not safe and loses against a broad variety of different strats.
Tyler did not say that 2/3gate expand is bad, he just said that Tester's variation of it is off. 2/3 gate is the BEST thing you can do against this push I dare to say.. Your expansion kicks in before the push comes and you can't really go 1base vs. 1 base against terran anyways. Also you need colossi, Immortal/gateway units or pure gateway unit will get raped against Marine/Tank/Banshee/Raven.
What is he supposed to do? Go Gateway only or Gateway + Immortal on 1 base against that unitmix? lol. How is that supposed to work? PDD owns stalkers, marines demolish immortal and siege tanks rape zealots and immortals without shields.
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all-in = once the attack fails, there is no coming back/huge economical disadvantage from the allin-er.
if genius defended that attack and quickly do a good timing counter (before rain has the chance to recover his econ), it is gg. so imo, yes, rain did all-in in both games , he could have make an expo when he move out but he didnt.
scv pulling can be igonored from the terran player caused' they have the mules.
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On November 26 2010 22:01 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 21:57 billyX333 wrote:On November 26 2010 21:51 Shikyo wrote:On November 26 2010 21:48 billyX333 wrote:On November 26 2010 21:42 Shikyo wrote:On November 26 2010 21:40 billyX333 wrote:On November 26 2010 21:34 Shikyo wrote:On November 26 2010 21:26 billyX333 wrote:On November 26 2010 21:25 gnutz wrote:
It was no All-In. He pulled only half his SCVs
GG Protoss it was definitely all in... if that attack doesnt inflict significant damage he loses, no question about it It was 8-9 SCVs, and that attack was not going to fail. The worst that would happen is the P would barely hold it off and T would be able to contain, but the chance of getting at least the natural expansion and being able to safely expand himself made it so that I really wouldn't consider that an all-in. It's like... 10pool vs 16hatch, you can consider it an all-in because you have to deal damage, but the chance to deal damage is so high that it really isn't an all-in imo. Its an all in build. I cant believe this is even being disputed. He had no CC building and genius had colossus tech, an expo and like 40 probes. If that attack ends in an army trade or even 20 probes + army trade, then he loses He only needed to get the Nexus and set up a contain, that was almost guaranteed to happen. He didn't need to kill the P right away, in my opinion. It was a timing attack to hit the Protoss expansion, yes, but that doesn't make it an all-in. He could have expanded just fine after taking out the Nexus and forcing Genius up his ramp. well no shit. wtf is your definition of an all in? Inflict game ending damage or LOSE. his build hard counters FE colossus build so yeah no shit it was guaranteed success but its not like he KNEW that when he began executing his all in build My definition is such that a timing attack against an expansion isn't an all-in, and how is going back to even bases "game-ending damage"? Like, a Terran can midgame-push a Zerg's third off 2 bases and have great chances to take it out... it's not an all-in. It's just a timing attack. Sigh. What was the worst-case scenario? He was pretty much guaranteed to cut the ramp circulation off and hence be able to take the natural out, even if he after that got broken, he'd have been totally fine. But sure, feel free to think that every timing attack that doesn't expand before 5 minutes is all-in if it makes you feel good. 1 base timing attacks with 10 workers and no attempt at expanding are all-ins .. in my opinion we'll have to agree to disagree on this one because i also consider 1 gas quad gate builds (cutting probes at 19) as all-in because i have never ever lost vs them while keeping up my expo also: i dont consider 2 base timing attacks on a 3rd as all-in 2base timing attacks always involve a transition even if it doesnt work. you dont have to commit to the attack at all while you HAVE to commit to 1basing Not entirely correct. Terran's 1-base income is only slightly lower than Protoss's 2-base income at that saturation due to muling, and Terran can quite easily cut a macro round and use excess minerals to start a CC when pushing. Granted, he pulled scvs, but that attack didn't need to end the game.
killing the expo ends the game. and i made no mention of the income. army trade = lose like i said. his expo is already guaranteed to be ~5 minutes behind
and im going to reiterate my earlier argument about the 2base timing attacks vs 1basing
2 base timing attacks can army trade and fail to kill the third while still being in the game (against zerg at least)
this is not the case with 1 basing
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that one collosals was doing sick damage.
He could of had 2 but he was careless and lost one before the attack even began....
Then just as the thrid one was about to be finished, the banshess destoryed the robotics.
Had he had two/three collosi he would of been able to defend that attack and would of pulled way ahead due to his expo. Credit to the terran player though. Pushed at the right momement, didnt get greedy and lose his banshees for a sake of a couple of probes.
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On November 26 2010 21:55 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 21:41 STenSatsu wrote:On November 26 2010 21:38 Cel.erity wrote:On November 26 2010 21:33 brentsen wrote:On November 26 2010 21:31 HeIios wrote:On November 26 2010 21:29 kaztah wrote:
He lost because of the positional disadvantage with the siege tanks killing his buildings, including the robotics, and because he lost the second colossus right away when it spawned. Had nothing to do with "imbalance". Go back to battle.net forums or something. But you have to agree, when you put all that money and gas into one unit and misscontrol that single unit you lose sooo much. More stalkers/zealots/sentries would have been better. But without the Colossus the Marines would have owned him. Too oversimplified. Since T had so many banshees, Genius needed a billion stalkers to keep his colossi alive. Everything in T's army countered mass stalkers. This means colossi won't work. Honestly, if he goes for any other tech choice, or no tech at all, he would've had a perfectly fine army for holding that push. Chargelots and immortals would have gg'ed it. Since when do chargelots and immortals shoot up? Cause there were 3 banshees and a PDD in that army too if you missed it. At the risk of feeding the trolls, I'll explain something to you that most people already know: tanks do more damage than banshees. They also die faster than banshees to a good army composition. You only need about 6 chargelots and 3 immortals, which Genius easily could have had instead of investing into colossi and excess probes. Imagine if those 3 gimp colossi were 6 chargelots and +2 immortals. Yeah. He'll even have some gas for sentries left over.
Robo bay + 3 colossi= 1100 mins 700 gas. TC+Charge+6 zealots+3immortals= 1700 mins 600 gas. Charge is a 140 second upgrade.
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On November 26 2010 22:03 gnutz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 22:00 sleepingdog wrote:
Ok, hate to say this as a protoss-player, but wtf 2 gate colossi (!) + expand (!!!) is NOT supposed to survive against ANY timing-attack.
That's right, BUT the problem is, you need them Colossi this early to hold ANY only bio or bio + raven pushes. It's just retarded.
Actuallyyyy.... I don't know about the siege tank/banshee/raven parts, but I hold early bio balls with gateway units just fine. Siege tanks/banshees/raven makes this part hard for gateway units but even then colossi would not have been answer.
You only need colossi for late game bioballs.
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Well...GeniuePig fighting? I feel sorry for the guy, he should switch to Zerg.
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EPT
