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On November 26 2010 21:37 Caphe wrote:
One of many reasons for Genius lost in the second game is his scouting. Only make one ob and left it at his mineral line to defend the banshee. He should have made another one. I dont know about the English stream, but on the Korean stream the casters particularly pointed this out. They switched to Genius vision and so people that Genius has no idea what Rain is doing.
He was playing blind and payed for that.
If that is true, then its really an excellent insight, thanks
I was wondering why nex didnt add a stargate since colossus in hindsight for me, seems to be a really bad choice against that combination of units. Tanks and banshee can easily snipe off colossis, while rines protect tanks against the zealots. Doesnt look like beatable without nix support since that 3+ banshees that sniped off the robo and some buildings really showed how truly impotent stalkers can be against banshees in unless they grossly outnumber banshees
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On November 26 2010 21:39 ParasitJonte wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 21:37 Caphe wrote:
One of many reasons for Genius lost in the second game is his scouting. Only make one ob and left it at his mineral line to defend the banshee. He should have made another one. I dont know about the English stream, but on the Korean stream the casters particularly pointed this out. They switched to Genius vision and so people that Genius has no idea what Rain is doing.
He was playing blind and payed for that. He saw the factory with techlab. He saw the starport and the banshees. I'm pretty sure he knew EXACTLY what was coming and almost when it was coming.
Thats all he knew. He did not see the 2 barracks that constaly pumping out marines and if his opponent has an expansion or not.
I think he though Rain was going to banshee harrass into expansion...
If he saw the attack coming, he would have cut probe and pump more unit out.
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On November 26 2010 21:38 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 21:33 brentsen wrote:On November 26 2010 21:31 HeIios wrote:On November 26 2010 21:29 kaztah wrote:
He lost because of the positional disadvantage with the siege tanks killing his buildings, including the robotics, and because he lost the second colossus right away when it spawned. Had nothing to do with "imbalance". Go back to battle.net forums or something. But you have to agree, when you put all that money and gas into one unit and misscontrol that single unit you lose sooo much. More stalkers/zealots/sentries would have been better. But without the Colossus the Marines would have owned him. Too oversimplified. Since T had so many banshees, Genius needed a billion stalkers to keep his colossi alive. Everything in T's army countered mass stalkers. This means colossi won't work. Honestly, if he goes for any other tech choice, or no tech at all, he would've had a perfectly fine army for holding that push. Chargelots and immortals would have gg'ed it.
Since when do chargelots and immortals shoot up? Cause there were 3 banshees and a PDD in that army too if you missed it.
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On November 26 2010 21:40 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 21:35 Krychek wrote:
Yeah, TvP, balanced, sure. What some people don't realize is that Genius is an AMAZING player, his oponent never unplayed him, just cheesed him in a way that the best protoss in the world can't defend. G1, Genius scouts the cheese, anyways he lost. G2, Genius scouts the 1 base play, still, lost. And don't talk crap fanboyism about "he must watch more day9", these guys practice and brainstorm 12 freaking hours per day You can say w/e you want. But Genius his army was at the wrong spot. If he had is army UP in his base, he would never have lost that initial collosus (sniped when it came out). And he wouldnt have lost his robo bay. The terran would have had to run very carefully because the Collosus + stalker forces the army to run away from the cliff. This means that there wouldnt have been sieged tanks near the cliff. Etc etc etc. If he wouldnt have expanded he would have won. His army was better than that of the terran.
If he sits up on his base he's pretty much giving up his expo and asking to get contained, putting himself in a very disadvantageous position anyway. Might've been the better choice, might've not been but it would've been very hard either way.
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On November 26 2010 21:40 Dfgj wrote:
Genius knew precisely what was coming, and that was almost certainly his standard counter that he's practiced against every ladder T that does it.
Still got rolled.
Hm.
no he didn't. his observer saw the banshee and went to the mineral line, he was waiting for banshee harass and never made another observer apparently. you can tell by the way he positioned his army before the attack. if he knew exactly what was going on he would've held it off a little better
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i say genius gets outplayed. rain did a good job of making out those amount of tanks+banshee+raven for a great timing attack tells me he is defo a better player in game2. altho he all-in 2 games and game1 was cheesey.
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On November 26 2010 21:40 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 21:34 Shikyo wrote:On November 26 2010 21:26 billyX333 wrote:On November 26 2010 21:25 gnutz wrote:
It was no All-In. He pulled only half his SCVs
GG Protoss it was definitely all in... if that attack doesnt inflict significant damage he loses, no question about it It was 8-9 SCVs, and that attack was not going to fail. The worst that would happen is the P would barely hold it off and T would be able to contain, but the chance of getting at least the natural expansion and being able to safely expand himself made it so that I really wouldn't consider that an all-in. It's like... 10pool vs 16hatch, you can consider it an all-in because you have to deal damage, but the chance to deal damage is so high that it really isn't an all-in imo. Its an all in build. I cant believe this is even being disputed. He had no CC building and genius had colossus tech, an expo and like 40 probes. If that attack ends in an army trade or even 20 probes + army trade, then he loses
He only needed to get the Nexus and set up a contain, that was almost guaranteed to happen. He didn't need to kill the P right away, in my opinion. It was a timing attack to hit the Protoss expansion, yes, but that doesn't make it an all-in. He could have expanded just fine after taking out the Nexus and forcing Genius up his ramp.
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damnit, they livestream it for free?
Better quality than the GSL i paid for :/ not to mention no buffering (have to watch gsl on low for fluent play)
OT: Spoiler in the tournament thread? + Show Spoiler +Wow Golden threw away those games. Trying to do the funky thing, and just missing. And i think he could have done way better even after the missed pool. Why would he ONLY run into the choke with his 10+ zerglings. So much missed damage on the gate/cyber :/
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On November 26 2010 21:27 Pills wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 21:26 Moonloop wrote:
Well there goes the best Protoss in the GSL. Really, really hoping GuineaPig can win his games against Leenock. Well, yeah, this is NexGenius's fault here. Remember, during State of the Game, Idra said that NexGenius wasn't that good, he was just greedy with his economy and soon, players will start figuring out his timing windows to exploit that. It looks like they've started figuring it out. NexGenius really had a piss poor army when Rain attacked.
I listen to every SOTG but I don't remember hearing that. However I would agree with idra there, genius has been seen as some uber-strong toss because he won at blizzcon but he's never really been that impressing. He would have lost to the same push in the ro64 if the terran hadn't butchered the execution.
Also, his face annoys me.
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On November 26 2010 21:41 Caphe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 21:39 ParasitJonte wrote:On November 26 2010 21:37 Caphe wrote:
One of many reasons for Genius lost in the second game is his scouting. Only make one ob and left it at his mineral line to defend the banshee. He should have made another one. I dont know about the English stream, but on the Korean stream the casters particularly pointed this out. They switched to Genius vision and so people that Genius has no idea what Rain is doing.
He was playing blind and payed for that. He saw the factory with techlab. He saw the starport and the banshees. I'm pretty sure he knew EXACTLY what was coming and almost when it was coming. Thats all he knew. He did not see the 2 barracks that constaly pumping out marines and if his opponent has an expansion or not. I think he though Rain was going to banshee harrass into expansion... If he saw the attack coming, he would have cut probe and pump more unit out.
The build terran did is a very standard and very powerful build that has been used on protoss in GSL many many times. Especially on lost temple close positions.
Genius knew what was coming without that second observer.
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Australia326 Posts
On November 26 2010 21:37 ParasitJonte wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 21:35 palookieblue wrote:On November 26 2010 21:31 ParasitJonte wrote:On November 26 2010 21:28 palookieblue wrote:
He got the observer out early, saw the one-base play, saw the banshees, tech-lab'd factory, and still went for 2gate colo expo?
Lmao.
He just played poorly, please don't bring race into the discussion ffs.
Yes, because whenever you play a 1 base noob you just camp on 1 base until he expands, right? Jesus christ... Why are you asking me a question? You think Genius played well? You would think playing on the Korean server where banshee+marine timing pushes originated from would help him out, but I suppose not. Also it's funny how you're calling TSL_Rain '1 base noob'. I guess it's better to be a '1basenoob' than a 2 base and still lose. Keep QQ'ing. I didn't call him anything. I demonstrated the flaw in your "logic". Re-read, and try to re-life.
Thanks for not responding to anything at all, it really supports your viewpoint. I did re-read, and you're still sounding whiney.
At the end of the day, you can blame the race all you want, but TSL_Rain played much better than Genius, and it showed. If it was any other protoss player that lost there wouldn't be this ridiculous balance discussion because it's quite obvious that he scouted, and yet still didn't adequately prepare.
Not going to respond to your posts after this. (:
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People are overcomplicating this.
His 2nd colossus got out 1 second too late. He would've crushed that push with scvs and marines melting in 1 thermal lance sweep.
He could've also gone for a stargate with a single phoenix over the immortal and killed every single banshee and the raven.
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On November 26 2010 21:42 SKtheAnathema wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 21:40 Dfgj wrote:
Genius knew precisely what was coming, and that was almost certainly his standard counter that he's practiced against every ladder T that does it.
Still got rolled.
Hm. no he didn't. his observer saw the banshee and went to the mineral line, he was waiting for banshee harass and never made another observer apparently. you can tell by the way he positioned his army before the attack. if he knew exactly what was going on he would've held it off a little better
So, one observer for the mineral line.
One observer for scouting.
That puts him almost one colossus later than he was when we got attacked. Can you imagine how the game would have turned out then? -___-
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On November 26 2010 21:42 SKtheAnathema wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 21:40 Dfgj wrote:
Genius knew precisely what was coming, and that was almost certainly his standard counter that he's practiced against every ladder T that does it.
Still got rolled.
Hm. no he didn't. his observer saw the banshee and went to the mineral line, he was waiting for banshee harass and never made another observer apparently. you can tell by the way he positioned his army before the attack. if he knew exactly what was going on he would've held it off a little better
If he knew banshees were coming, he knew that push was coming, because it's a pretty common follow-up to opening banshee.
I'm fairly sure (hopefully) that he's not entirely unaware.
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By the way, I still think that something needs to be done about the inefficiency of Protoss early on. Maybe have Zealot legspeed be moved to the cybernetics core? I'm not sure if that'd hurt the Citadel legacy of BW, though. I really don't think it would be too overpowered or anything.
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On November 26 2010 21:42 SKtheAnathema wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 21:40 Dfgj wrote:
Genius knew precisely what was coming, and that was almost certainly his standard counter that he's practiced against every ladder T that does it.
Still got rolled.
Hm. no he didn't. his observer saw the banshee and went to the mineral line, he was waiting for banshee harass and never made another observer apparently. you can tell by the way he positioned his army before the attack. if he knew exactly what was going on he would've held it off a little better
His Observer saw both tech labs on the factory and Starport, this is what libero did to him. Obviously he pulls his observer back just in case Terran did get cloak, I mean, he isn't psychic, how can he tell if he did or did not get that?
This is Genius, probably the best Protoss player in the world, I'm pretty sure he knew what he had to do, but really, that push looked so devastating, and when that Raven came out, losing the observer would have been awful since it slows down Colossus production getting out another.
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On November 26 2010 21:44 Shikyo wrote:
By the way, I still think that something needs to be done about the inefficiency of Protoss early on. Maybe have Zealot legspeed be moved to the cybernetics core? I'm not sure if that'd hurt the Citadel legacy of BW, though. I really don't think it would be too overpowered or anything.
Cannons being as effective as bunkers or spines would help also.
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not to mention terran knew he was scouted so he didnt even try to fake the banshee harass timing
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On November 26 2010 21:43 andrewwiggin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 21:42 SKtheAnathema wrote:On November 26 2010 21:40 Dfgj wrote:
Genius knew precisely what was coming, and that was almost certainly his standard counter that he's practiced against every ladder T that does it.
Still got rolled.
Hm. no he didn't. his observer saw the banshee and went to the mineral line, he was waiting for banshee harass and never made another observer apparently. you can tell by the way he positioned his army before the attack. if he knew exactly what was going on he would've held it off a little better So, one observer for the mineral line. One observer for scouting. That puts him almost one colossus later than he was when we got attacked. Can you imagine how the game would have turned out then? -___-
i dont want to theorycraft, just saying him assuming cloaked banshees cost him. cloaked banshees and what rain did are very different
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On November 26 2010 21:36 KonohaFlash wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 21:32 sqrt wrote:On November 26 2010 21:26 On_Slaught wrote:On November 26 2010 21:24 Obbalord wrote:
fucking ridic unstopable allin
and still no patch from blizzard
Almost positive Blizzard said protoss was getting nerfed in the next patch. Storm in particular. Either way I don't think any racial imbalance lost these games for genius. He lost to some all-ins (kinda.. mules make that though to say) that were very poweful and which he didn't have the best responses to. You be trollin'? Storm is quite useless vs Zerg atm and semi-usefull vs Terran (unless they don't use stim and stay on one spot). As much as I love toss I wouldn't be able to take another nerf(hey Blizz, how about you make the Stalker useful again, eh?) . I agree on the zerg bit, however storm is very useful with the amulet upgrade against terran so i don't know how you get off saying it's only semi-useful. Buffing stalkers would just make 4 gate more powerful than it already is 
I've noticed that some terrans(not all) are able to minimize the damage of storm by combining stim+dodge. I usually go Templar vs T(if I don't see double gas), and I noticed that most of the cases by the time the ball dies my Templars energy is near zero, if not zero, which means that I can't do enough dmg. with my other units before reinforcements arrive. Anyway, storm + constant pressure wins me the games, not the storm itself.
As for the Stalkers. 4 gate is the only (although a big one) point in this argument. Have you noticed that every zerg unit beat Stalker for cost? 2 Roaches, 6+ lings, muta ball grows in power due to chain strikes, Hydras and so forth. Terran has marauders...
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EPT
