EPTnow that kid MAKA played against played poorly. Difference!
[GSL] S3 Ro32 Day 1 - Page 80
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andrewwiggin
Australia435 Posts
now that kid MAKA played against played poorly. Difference! | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
On November 26 2010 22:00 HuHEN wrote: TSL rain is no doubt good but I dont see how you can say genius played poorly. He definitely played poorly in the first game and certainly didn't play flawlessly in the second game | ||
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andrewwiggin
Australia435 Posts
But its BW all over again. =( It just makes me sad. | ||
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Highways
Australia6105 Posts
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zomgad
185 Posts
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Reminiscence
Singapore34 Posts
On November 26 2010 22:06 Greentellon wrote: Actuallyyyy.... I don't know about the siege tank/banshee/raven parts, but I hold early bio balls with gateway units just fine. Siege tanks/banshees/raven makes this part hard for gateway units but even then colossi would not have been answer. You only need colossi for late game bioballs. Actually i am not entirely certain that push can be held off by just gateway units unless you have a huge econ adv by going for an earlier expand. For one immortals can be picked off super fast as he had substantial amount of banshees. Secondly the zealots will hit the scv wall for sure, theres almost no way to micro around it unless u try to run past. Either way the scvs will tank a lot of crucial damage allowing the rines to mow down the lots. stalkers just melt to this combination, which just seems to be so cost efficient. I have to agree though, that colossus is a really a bad choice. Microing tanks and banshees can take them down far too easily, 9 range or not. | ||
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Olmer
Poland320 Posts
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HuHEN
United Kingdom514 Posts
On November 26 2010 22:10 zomgad wrote: gotta love protoss players crying about cheeses and all ins ... oh the irony Oh the idiocy, dont remember foxer or fruitdealer or many/any top Z/T players being knocked out by 1base plays, top protosses on the other hand..... | ||
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Deleted User 124618
1142 Posts
It's too bad I suspect there won't be a chance to see a protoss beat this startegy any time soon. Last time genius fought I think he beat this startegy, but then he was lucky. Phoenixes would not have helped. Marines absolutely slaughter phoenixes, plus phoenixes are way too expensive to get in that situation. Would have cut army size considerably. | ||
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spacemonkeyy
Australia477 Posts
Genius had this EXACT build played against him in his last match against LiberoPrime- almost to a tee. The build is very common so much so that a TL poster (Alexanjdro?) called it at the 3 minute mark (4 tanks, 30 marines, 4 banshees, 1 raven and 10 scvs push at the 11 minute mark). Genius was only able to hold on in that game due to some poor terran micro. Genius does not need to see every single unit to know what hes against, its a common build in the ladder he played it last game, see that many banshees without cloak is a big tell. 1 Base toss has an extremely hard time dealing with that many marines with sieges in the back let alone the raven and banshees forcing stalkers. IMO there is no way he could have held that without collosus, and there is no way he could have held that with one base collosus. To me the free bunkers and the repairs scv's do is a kick in the teeth, I would much prefer SCV damage to scale so that the more you have the less they contribute i.e 1 at 100%, a 2nd one only adds 75% a 3rd 50% etc. Point is its an extremely abusive all in push- TSL Rain did not play exceptionally, he executed a build well he didn't have to alter it or deal with other pressure. Toss are forced robo they really don't have much hope except hoping for some poor terran Micro. My main problem with the current state of T V P is that anything but opening robo is almost potentially GG whilst Terran can really do what they like. P V Z on the other hand I think really the toss tech tree is a lot more open and viable. Wish-list -Very slight nerf on marines (similar to the zealot nerf for the silver 2v2 players) -Mass repair nerf so that mass repairing does not make bunkers/ Planetary Fortresses so strong -A 3rd protoss dectection option such as a sentry spell researched from the cyber core. | ||
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On November 26 2010 22:14 Greentellon wrote: The funny thing about this thread is, I suspect if genius had gone 3gate+robo, robo only for obsevers army only gatewaunits, if he still had lost, then advice would have been to get colossus. It's too bad I suspect there won't be a chance to see a protoss beat this startegy any time soon. Last time genius fought I think he beat this startegy, but then he was lucky. Phoenixes would not have helped. Marines absolutely slaughter phoenixes, plus phoenixes are way too expensive to get in that situation. Would have cut army size considerably. Phoenixes are the best answer to banshees, but as you say, target-fire on them takes them out of the picture rather fast. P thus gets to use stalkers, which lose badly to... every unit in T's mix. :| | ||
palookieblue
Australia326 Posts
On November 26 2010 22:04 Woony wrote: What is he supposed to do? Go Gateway only or Gateway + Immortal on 1 base against that unitmix? lol. How is that supposed to work? PDD owns stalkers, marines demolish immortal and siege tanks rape zealots and immortals without shields. You selected protoss units and then their Terran counters. Look, I can do the same. 'zOMG how is a Terran supposed to hold when: Immortals destroy siege tanks and Marauders, Colossi splash obliterate marines/scvs and not to mention sentries which almost nullify any advantage stim gives, as well as stalkers outranging the marines?' (: | ||
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pyro19
6575 Posts
The Universe has given me limitless Superhuman Powers. Everyone i Vote for in LB Loses(Doesnt matter Terran,Zerg or Toss).Magical Indeed. Huh , I Could Probably become a God to the Betting Chumps. ahahahhahahahahhaa | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On November 26 2010 22:15 spacemonkeyy wrote: Just a few points. Genius had this EXACT build played against him in his last match against LiberoPrime- almost to a tee. The build is very common so much so that a TL poster (Alexanjdro?) called it at the 3 minute mark (4 tanks, 30 marines, 4 banshees, 1 raven and 10 scvs push at the 11 minute mark). Genius was only able to hold on in that game due to some poor terran micro. Genius does not need to see every single unit to know what hes against, its a common build in the ladder he played it last game, see that many banshees without cloak is a big tell. 1 Base toss has an extremely hard time dealing with that many marines with sieges in the back let alone the raven and banshees forcing stalkers. IMO there is no way he could have held that without collosus, and there is no way he could have held that with one base collosus. To me the free bunkers and the repairs scv's do is a kick in the teeth, I would much prefer SCV damage to scale so that the more you have the less they contribute i.e 1 at 100%, a 2nd one only adds 75% a 3rd 50% etc. Point is its an extremely abusive all in push- TSL Rain did not play exceptionally, he executed a build well he didn't have to alter it or deal with other pressure. Toss are forced robo they really don't have much hope except hoping for some poor terran Micro. My main problem with the current state of T V P is that anything but opening robo is almost potentially GG whilst Terran can really do what they like. P V Z on the other hand I think really the toss tech tree is a lot more open and viable. Wish-list -Very slight nerf on marines (similar to the zealot nerf for the silver 2v2 players) -Mass repair nerf so that mass repairing does not make bunkers/ Planetary Fortresses so strong -A 3rd protoss dectection option such as a sentry spell researched from the cyber core. Very nice post, good points overall. I think one of the biggest problems are (again) the banshees - because you can NOT be sure if terran goes for cloak or not...therefore you need observers. And if you only build one, you even risk getting it sniped because of the raven. Ppl need to realize the 100 gas for an observer HURT...they hurt VERY bad, for two observers I can get already one colossus in gas! The lack in detection possibilities really makes every timing push so damn strong, because terran can figure out toss perfectly - since toss needs the observer or dies "if" cloak gets researched. Nevertheless I am more and more convinced that the answer lies in offensive play and NOT in defense. Genius should've done "something" after seeing no marauders. You can scout this shit extremely early, 1st scouting probe reports no marauders --> send stalker, if stalker reports bunker or no marauders, then you have to know there's something up. 3 gate pressure expand while camping the ramp to prevent terran from leaving his base is strong. 1 gate stargate Void ray harass is VERY strong vs 1/1/1, socke won his game vs naama outright. Even DT harass "can" be useful if executed perfectly, because terran needs to protect its own base first before being able to move out. But sitting on low gateway units while expanding and teching to colossi and crossing your fingers that terran delays its attack for too long is simply NOT a solid style of play, your opponent needs to make mistakes. | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
On November 26 2010 22:24 palookieblue wrote: You selected protoss units and then their Terran counters. Look, I can do the same. 'zOMG how is a Terran supposed to hold when: Immortals destroy siege tanks and Marauders, Colossi splash obliterate marines/scvs and not to mention sentries which almost nullify any advantage stim gives, as well as stalkers outranging the marines?' (: at least the previous post is talking about a REAL POSSIBLE situation. You suggest an unrealistic one, where protoss has bazzilion of gas. | ||
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Deleted User 124618
1142 Posts
On November 26 2010 22:24 palookieblue wrote: 'zOMG how is a Terran supposed to hold when: Immortals destroy siege tanks and Marauders, Colossi splash obliterate marines/scvs and not to mention sentries which almost nullify any advantage stim gives, as well as stalkers outranging the marines?' (: Let me rephrase that: Immortal range: 5 Siege tank range: 2-13 Immortals are not going to destroy siege tanks protected by MM wall, unless immortals can sneak up on the army. Versus a good player you really can't count on that. Immortals are good for absorbing the siege tank hits, but I do not know how much that would have helped genius. | ||
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palookieblue
Australia326 Posts
On November 26 2010 22:28 bokeevboke wrote: at least the previous post is talking about a REAL POSSIBLE situation. You suggest an unrealistic one, where protoss has bazzilion of gas. Well if we're bringing this back to the game itself, Genius did have an extra base (for a short time, granted), and Raven/Tanks/Banshee aren't exactly gas cheap either. Not sure what your point is here. All I meant was to show that you can't analyse a confrontation like that. It's not just 'draw a line from the left picture to the matching right picture'. | ||
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palookieblue
Australia326 Posts
On November 26 2010 22:32 Greentellon wrote: Let me rephrase that: Immortal range: 5 Siege tank range: 2-13 Immortals are not going to destroy siege tanks protected by MM wall, unless immortals can sneak up on the army. Versus a good player you really can't count on that. Immortals are good for absorbing the siege tank hits, but I do not know how much that would have helped genius. I have to agree with what you're saying, but I think you took that phrase out of context. I was just using it as an example of why someone's reasoning of 'A beats D, and B beats E, and C beats F' wasn't necessarily correct as the opposite can also occur. Rain didn't actually have MM, just marines, and was relying on bunkers to inch forward (as well as air spotting). There is a reason why Tanks aren't standard in TvP, and it's because of their lack of mobility, + they are easily countered in many popular Protoss tech paths. Speedlots, Immortals and Phoenix all make short work of tanks. For a heavy tank play to work he had to have either: - Air superiority/presence (check!) - Good positioning (check!) - A buffer between the tanks and the enemy, which was the marines + scvs + bunkers (check!) And he had all three, which was why the end result wasn't at all surprising. [Apologies if this is a double post, I'm not sure how to add multiple quotes.] | ||
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DarkRise
1644 Posts
Banshees, Repair and Thor but if they do this its like 4 terran nerf in a row which is why they are avoiding this. The good thing is they NOTICE this and that's what they get for having a OP race in the beginning -.- Anyways Imbalance stuff is off topic here so lets get on topic genius can be stupid sometimes just like his match against tester in all star | ||
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