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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On September 21 2010 02:55 revoN wrote: Can't believe Tastosis missed those two DTs in AnyproPrime vs oGsTheWinD g1 (check VOD at around 27:36)... not that it was anything game changing at that point but still. YEAH! I SAW THAT! Might not have been game-changing, but still, a few drones here and there do add up. | ||
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
On September 21 2010 03:00 Ym1r wrote: If it was an early SCV, <was it that early?> shouldn't TLO have suspected something? Also, people need to stop hating Hyperdub just because he cheesed and beat your beloved TLO. Why do I get the feeling if he played another person it would've been claimed as "a smart move" to a guy who did the same build over and over again. Uh, it was almost as early as possible? And how would TLO have known something was up? TLO did the standard scout at 9/10 after his depot finished, and went the wrong way by the time he found out his opponents base was basically empty, the marines were running into his base. | ||
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Ym1r
United States1164 Posts
On September 21 2010 03:06 Fa1nT wrote: Uh, it was almost as early as possible? And how would TLO have known something was up? TLO did the standard scout at 9/10 after his depot finished, and went the wrong way by the time he found out his opponents base was basically empty, the marines were running into his base. He couldn't spot the early SCV scout when it scouted him? | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
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latan
740 Posts
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TealLurker
United States791 Posts
On September 21 2010 03:08 Ym1r wrote: He couldn't spot the early SCV scout when it scouted him? No, because the SCV scouted the mineral patch to see if it was mined. Hyperdub's SCV is out of vision range. | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
On September 21 2010 02:52 Pekkz wrote: He had made up his mind about proxy even before he found him. He sent an early scv out with a 33% chance of winning , and 66% chance of getting behind. TLO had just massiv bad luck with sending his scv the wrong way AND getting close positions=[ Completely disagree about the 33% chance to win. TLO could scout around his natural for proxy and put up a bunker and be fine. TLO could have just scouted earlier in general and went to Hyperdub's base first and probably be fine. TLO could have done a cheese build himself and probably be fine. I also disagree with the 66% chance to be behind. If TLO does the same thing every game, Hyperdub's rush still works even if TLO is in the last position he scouts. I'm guessing you're thinking that TLO's Barracks and SCV building his Barracks would see Hyperdub's scouting SCV, alerting TLO to Hyperdub's extremely early scouting and retreating scout and enabling TLO to adjust his build. But Hyperdub sends out two SCV's so that the second SCV would be able to scout a second position before TLO's build can get a Barracks started. As long as the barracks hasn't begun building yet, Hyperdub is able to scout TLO's position without TLO seeing Hyperdub scouting. Hyperdub would be too slow to scout a third position but he doesn't have to because of the process of elimination. The chance/luck/randomness to it all is the way TLO acts. The positions don't really matter. It is possible that TLO could act in a way that would make himself safe so long as Hyperdub is unlucky with his scouting order. But even if TLO was playing that particular way, it's still not really useful to say that it all depends on position and scouting luck so long as TLO has choices in the way that he plays. If there was truly only way valid good way for TLO to play and that one true way could defend the rush 66% of the time and lose to it 33% of the time, then I could agree with you. But that is not the case here and it's hardly ever the case. | ||
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Flare23
United States27 Posts
On September 21 2010 02:44 Liquid`Tyler wrote: It's not about how early the attack comes. What's annoying is that it's done blindly. The only thing Hyperdub knows is TLO's position on the map. Hyperdub has no idea when TLO is going to discover Hyperdub's build and Hyperdub has no idea what build TLO is doing. There are many ways that could have gone wrong for Hyperdub and he wasn't doing anything to prevent them all. I do agree that the word "cheese" does not make discussion any more productive and it probably makes discussion less productive. People ought to discuss what happened without labeling things too broadly because the game is too complex. Taking shortcuts with all-encompassing words and phrases usually prevents discussion from making any good progress. Yes I agree its not about when the attack comes, the game is more complicated than that. Its not a game based on perfect information, nothing in life is, thats the charm of it all isn't it? Its a game between 2 players attempting to make decisions in an environment without perfect information. Even the best scouting only allow for more accurate predictions in regards to the opponent's strategy. I completely agree with you that the game is extremely complex and that most players, even pros probably underestimate its complexity. Scouting and thinking that you can find all the proxies all the time is unreasonable. If we go back to the first few moments of game 3, both players began the match blind for the most part. They had some information to go on, such as the opponents race, perhaps the opponent's play style, history, their gauge of overall emotions and confidence levels. I saw some posters mentioning that TLO and Hyper were even roommates. There may be more information than we perceive, on the other hand, it might have been a desperate blind stab, but both players had the same opportunity in the game, why is it that one player choose this tactic while someone else choose another. I don't honestly think that we can ever really systematically gauge who is the better player, TLO or Hyper, based simply on the decisions made in one single series because we can't even begin to define and quantify which factors goes into making a good sc2 player. Therefore, we are only able to use win/loss over a set period of time in determining the soft quality of "skill". If a player was able to execute "cheese" tactics and consistently win over a long period of time, then the win/loss record would suggest to us that the player was rather gifted and those "cheese" tactics rather well thought out. Finally, isn't this why more aggressive strategies are favored in RTS games, and most other games for that matter, because aggression gives you a slight edge due to the fact that you are initiating in an environment of imperfect information (slightly more control) while your opponent is forced to react in an environment of imperfect information. edit: comma | ||
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leetchaos
United States395 Posts
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robertdinh
803 Posts
To people hating on the cheese, you can only blame tlo for that. It is his own responsibility to have tourney ready strats, that includes scouting properly against strats that can beat him. If he goes with a strat that is vulnerable to some sorta proxy rush, he should cover his tracks, he shouldn't just assume no one will ever exploit that vulnerability. A great player does not limit his strategical arsenal, if you do you are just limiting the ways you can win. I am not saying you should proxy every game, but you should be capable of proxying, cause if you aren't, then maybe you will develop a reputation for that, and maybe that's one less thing an opponent playing vs you has to worry about. Which is already an advantage. | ||
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hydraden
United States719 Posts
On September 21 2010 01:46 Fa1nT wrote: Foreigners lack "creativity" because they want to win.. which is done by fundamentals + macro + micro, not getting lucky with an all in. When you got 60 koreans to 4 foreigners, eventually one of them will hit the jackpot with their cheese and knock them out. You obviously don't know that cheese is not as easy as it seems. It involves a lot of responses and changing of plans. If you let me cheese 10 games against Bisu in BW, I probably won't even win 1 game. That's the skill there for you. As a top progamer, a lot of things need to be considered, that's why it is so hard to stay on top in BW, and this makes the champion so honorable. | ||
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Dionyseus
United States2068 Posts
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Vz0
Canada378 Posts
On September 20 2010 23:31 Hesmyrr wrote: This is ridiculous GOMTV should throw in a rule stating that the attacking is not allowed for 5 minutes have elapsed from start of the game because the cheese should be damned illegal these ridiculous imbecilities always pop up in epic seasons and ruin the game for mee hyperdub fails hard for doing such cheesy tactics that are abomination and he should have damned progamer license rebuked and immediately lynched to death b/c fuuuuu that damn Korean like idra said is cheesy noob who cannot seriously do anything except cheese deserving players to hell and he deserves to be stabbed and fucked hard in the back and burned to the stake god christ TLO  Seriously my eyes hurt and I urinate all over that stupid game I just watched on my Opera browser. Why does such satanic anti- neo demonic bastard ever dare to touch SC2 and make it filthy filthy filthy shit+ Show Spoiler + Sorry, couldn't resist the opportunity. your really really stupid. Please learn about competitive gaming vs casual gaming. User was warned for this post | ||
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ZapRoffo
United States5544 Posts
On September 21 2010 03:18 leetchaos wrote: Pretty telling of how young the game is with this many all-in proxies in a tournament like this. Might I bring to your attention Korean Air OSL Season 2 finals. Might want to rethink that. | ||
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Dr.Frost
United States389 Posts
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sOvrn
United States678 Posts
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ZapRoffo
United States5544 Posts
On September 21 2010 03:36 Vz0 wrote: your really really stupid. Please learn about competitive gaming vs casual gaming. Check your sarcasm detector. | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
On September 21 2010 03:18 leetchaos wrote: Pretty telling of how young the game is with this many all-in proxies in a tournament like this. yeah cuz BoxeR never cheesed in a final right? FlaSh has beaten Jaedong with a 7rax bunkerrush Most top players has cheesed in games and won with it. Boxer,Flash,NaDa,Reach,July,Jaedong and many many more | ||
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hydraden
United States719 Posts
On September 21 2010 03:00 Ym1r wrote: If it was an early SCV, <was it that early?> shouldn't TLO have suspected something? Also, people need to stop hating Hyperdub just because he cheesed and beat your beloved TLO. Why do I get the feeling if he played another person it would've been claimed as "a smart move" to a guy who did the same build over and over again. TLO did not see the SCV, he had nothing to suspect from. | ||
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regulator_mk
United States127 Posts
On September 21 2010 01:42 kmisho64 wrote: Poker wouldn't be any fun at all everyone knew that everyone was playing the logical odds. Plus, bluffing is itself a skill. As a much better chess player than starcraft player, your last idea is totally impossible. You're basically insisting that when one player is really bad and the other is really good, the game will never end because the really bad player will almost always lose in 20 moves. Some people have said cheese like cheating, like distracting a ref to get away with a foul or something similar. No way. Cheese does not break any rules. It's not cheating. I'm undecided what if anything to do about it. Maybe Blizzard reduce the odds of cheese success just a little...? Um, did you miss that he was being facetious? | ||
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