Anyone actually considered that hyperdub might have decided to cheese because of TLOs scouting habits? I remember demuslim during the homestory cup said he proxied some pretty high ranked guy because he knew he didnt scout. And looking at game 1&2, i recall TLO scouting later than his opponent as well as not looking for proxies. He'd have lost to a proxy rax game 1 on XN caverns 100%. Now if hyperdub randomly thought "ok im gonna try proxying him this time" then it might have been a bit of luck involved, but if it was as a response to TLOs late + not checking proxy locations scouting, then the proxy was nothing else than a brilliant move of adaptation.
Also, am I the only one who seems to notice that cheese has a rather high success rate among top players? Maybe its my memory or me missing plenty of games where cheese fails, but thats what ive felt anyway. I mean, on a map like steppes of war, doesnt a lot of people neglect looking at top-left and bottom-right parts of their bases at start for proxies? And with the exceptions of stuff like 6-pool, cheese often seems to cause enough damage to at least put them on equal grounds even if it didnt win the game,
I wouldnt be surprised at all if the game evolved to a lot earlier and more extensive scouting. The loss of doing so (very slight loss income becauese of lost mining time on an SCV) seems to be a lot smaller than the loss of being vulnerable to cheese.
On September 21 2010 00:42 vnlegend wrote: TLO is trying too much cute stuff which the other guy responds by just attacking and killing him. It also seems like Koreans have a diversity of builds for specific maps while foreigners are doing the same stuff over and over, being predictable, and losing.
Looks like Koreans are better both at standard/mechanical play and aggressive/strategic play. gg foreigners
Idra lost because of a silly scouting error and TLO lost to a cheese, it hardly sounds like an insurmountable skill gap to me, not to mention how few foreigners actually took part in the tournament.
Just like in BW, that's exactly what foreigners lack. Foreigners love macro game too much, too predictable, muscle is not everything.
On September 21 2010 00:42 vnlegend wrote: TLO is trying too much cute stuff which the other guy responds by just attacking and killing him. It also seems like Koreans have a diversity of builds for specific maps while foreigners are doing the same stuff over and over, being predictable, and losing.
Looks like Koreans are better both at standard/mechanical play and aggressive/strategic play. gg foreigners
Idra lost because of a silly scouting error and TLO lost to a cheese, it hardly sounds like an insurmountable skill gap to me, not to mention how few foreigners actually took part in the tournament.
Just like in BW, that's exactly what foreigners lack. Foreigners love macro game too much, too predictable, muscle is not everything.
You're generalizing way too much man, koreans dont have some magic that makes them fundamentally better players.
On September 21 2010 00:42 vnlegend wrote: TLO is trying too much cute stuff which the other guy responds by just attacking and killing him. It also seems like Koreans have a diversity of builds for specific maps while foreigners are doing the same stuff over and over, being predictable, and losing.
Looks like Koreans are better both at standard/mechanical play and aggressive/strategic play. gg foreigners
Idra lost because of a silly scouting error and TLO lost to a cheese, it hardly sounds like an insurmountable skill gap to me, not to mention how few foreigners actually took part in the tournament.
Just like in BW, that's exactly what foreigners lack. Foreigners love macro game too much, too predictable, muscle is not everything.
I don't think it's what foreigners lack, it's just I doubt they get as much practice against it. They should be better playing on the Korean Ladder and that's how Korean players probably practice too.
The games still early and non Koreans certainly have a massive chance to do well, I mean look at TLO getting to the Round of 32, as well as Idra in only the first tournament. Also Torch got into the Round of 64 even though nobody knew who he was.
Non Koreans are going to do perfectly well at SC2, people just need to support them and stop saying that non koreans stand no chance against Koreans at an RTS, because that's just silly. The only reason why they didn't in Broodwar is noone outside of Korea got paid to actually play Starcraft all day every day.
Of course it is sad to see that TLO lost but I guess it is not too bad as it gives him some time to really focus on his developement as a player. All in all I felt that his TvT builds still need a lot of refinements and he said himself that TvP is his weak spot. So now he has a few weeks to become more solid. I think one of his problems is that he often plays strats that are very risky und also very demanding to execute so in order to really win the big prices he may need to gather a tad more experience and also reach a standard in mechanics like TheStc or Ensnare show it. In contrast to a similar newcomer like Huk (who has collected some impressive results with mostly aggresive standard builds) TLO tries not only to win by execution but also by innovation. The thing is that once you deviate from the standard it is way more difficult to succeed. This may be illustrated with a football genius like Zidane who was not only amazingly creative but also was in possession of amazing technical skills that enabled him to perform what his head dictated him. Nevertheless we could see that TLO has some qualities that make him pretty unique in the SC2 scene and if he continues his improvement he can really become a key figure in the era of SC2.
TLO used the same BO for all three maps which Hyperdub probably figured out and that's what prompted him to proxy rax in game 3. A way to think about it is that if you know your opponent will 8 pool every game, the counter is to 10 pool and pretty much always win. Hyperdub thought(correctly) TLO will use the same BO with the fast factory and countered it with 2 scv 5 marine push.
It's a calculated risk, not a blind risk as if you were doing it on ladder against a random someone that you don't know. There is a bit of strategy, mind games, and of course a little luck. But probably not as much as some of the posters think. Like people mentioned before, SC1 progamers 4 pooled and bunker rushed all the time.
As to saying Hyperdub cheesed because he "couldn't match TLO in macro", personally I thought Hyperdub had played much more solidly in the first 2 games, getting the early-mid game advantage over TLO. TLO played well in the series, and it was a very entertaining first match, but I think Hyperdub deserved the win since he had the upper hand in all 3 games for probably 75% of the time.
I just want to thank TLO for extremely exciting games. I got the feeling TLO doesn't only play to win, but also wants to give a good show for the audience.
Really sad he's out but it was an epic series except for the proxy ofcourse.
On September 20 2010 21:56 phungus420 wrote: It's much like poker, where sometimes you need to throw out some bluffs against opponents that are playing too tight in order to get them to call, or call some hands you where you think you are probably beat. In short cheese is an integral part of the game.
No way man, bluffing totally ruins the game of poker. Winning hands you deserved to lose? That is really undermining to the skill of the players. We should play with all of our cards face up and eliminate the blinds so that the best player will win every time. Also, chess should be played without queens, and if a player gets checkmated within the first 20 moves, the game is automatically restarted.
Really, that's what some people in this thread seem to think.
Poker wouldn't be any fun at all everyone knew that everyone was playing the logical odds. Plus, bluffing is itself a skill.
As a much better chess player than starcraft player, your last idea is totally impossible. You're basically insisting that when one player is really bad and the other is really good, the game will never end because the really bad player will almost always lose in 20 moves.
Some people have said cheese like cheating, like distracting a ref to get away with a foul or something similar. No way. Cheese does not break any rules. It's not cheating. I'm undecided what if anything to do about it. Maybe Blizzard reduce the odds of cheese success just a little...?
On September 21 2010 01:11 Kreb wrote: Anyone actually considered that hyperdub might have decided to cheese because of TLOs scouting habits? I remember demuslim during the homestory cup said he proxied some pretty high ranked guy because he knew he didnt scout. And looking at game 1&2, i recall TLO scouting later than his opponent as well as not looking for proxies. He'd have lost to a proxy rax game 1 on XN caverns 100%. Now if hyperdub randomly thought "ok im gonna try proxying him this time" then it might have been a bit of luck involved, but if it was as a response to TLOs late + not checking proxy locations scouting, then the proxy was nothing else than a brilliant move of adaptation.
First, I'm going to say I'm a big fan of TLO, but I think you're right on. Looking at the arc of that match, the feeling I get is of hyperdub learning how TLO worked. The cheese in the 3rd match, rather than being a cheap shot of a worried player, was closer to being a killshot inspired by disrespect (I don't mean permanent disrespect out of meanness. I just mean that hyper felt like he had TLO's number). Hyper had a strong sense that TLO was not going to change up and played it that way...exactly as he should have.
Maybe its bs but do any1 think that players and their teams can co ordinate through hand gestures , is it possible or they dont have vision to the spectators ?
what i mean is that ogs members could have spoted tlos lack of scouting and give the signal to hyper to proxy rush
Maybe is fiction but when stakes are high , everything is possible imo cause hyper at the end look suprised it worked and relived kinda
On September 21 2010 01:52 st3roids wrote: Maybe its bs but do any1 think that players and their teams can co ordinate through hand gestures , is it possible or they dont have vision to the spectators ?
what i mean is that ogs members could have spoted tlos lack of scouting and give the signal to hyper to proxy rush
Maybe is fiction but when stakes are high , everything is possible imo cause hyper at the end look suprised it worked and relived kinda
I think the way they sit, they don't even see anyone in the audience, but it'd be pretty obvious if someone was trying to look into the crowd, which is probably dark to them since all the lights are on them, trying to spot someone giving them hand signals.
On September 21 2010 00:41 Woozyman wrote: I really wished I could have seen the TLO interview, I like that he was smiling, it shows the mark of a true player.
GOM put the interview video on it's website. Check the GOM Cam and you should find it easily.
On September 21 2010 00:42 vnlegend wrote: TLO is trying too much cute stuff which the other guy responds by just attacking and killing him. It also seems like Koreans have a diversity of builds for specific maps while foreigners are doing the same stuff over and over, being predictable, and losing.
Looks like Koreans are better both at standard/mechanical play and aggressive/strategic play. gg foreigners
Idra lost because of a silly scouting error and TLO lost to a cheese, it hardly sounds like an insurmountable skill gap to me, not to mention how few foreigners actually took part in the tournament.
Hyperdub was clearly the better player in the series, sure he made one bad decision in game 1 and that ultimately lost him the game because of how TvT works, but he still was way, way better than TLO pretty much everywhere else. If he had just played the lameass way and made a million turrets and quad-expanded after containing TLO in game one, there's no way he'd have lost.
you don't proxy cheese your opponent when it's all on the line because you're way better than your opponent.
Well he did say that after game 1 he knew he'd win. I think he saw TLO use that BO twice and he knew he'd win close to 100% with that proxy rush.
How do you not understand that as SOON as TLO scouts either the proxy raxes or Hyperdub's main in time, he could build a bunker at his ramp and safely defend for a massive advantage? Doing a proxy build like that is basically taking a huge gamble that may or may not pay off. For sure not even close to 100%, more like 50% seeing as how TLO has two paths to scout, either top or bottom first and he chose the wrong one.
well for one i dont pretend to be a 2k level terran and know the intricacies and the exact timings of the match up.
EPT
