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United States4883 Posts
On June 13 2014 11:05 Xinzoe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 10:29 OPDream wrote:
How do you know terran gonna scv allin you on 3 base (~10 vikings+3 ghosts)? What I know is if terran has low medivac count, it's highly possible to happen. How do you guys scout it? this is very hard to scout (at least for me) but here's what i notice. Most scv pulls come a little bit after 1/1 (2 base) or immediately when 2/2 is finished (3 base). I don't know if this is right way to do it but it works a little more than half the time. So let's say you have an observer watching his army (you don't need to watch entire army just one unit to see his upgrades) when you see 1/1, remember that 2/2 will finish 180-210 seconds later, so time a halluc phoenix and send it across to scout his Engineering Bays. Check if its upgrading, if not then expect SCV Pull. An example would on King Sejong Station, 1/1 finishes by 10:30, 2/2 will most likely finish by 14:00 Therefore send halluc phoenix at 13:15 to his ebays. To know if it is upgrading + Show Spoiler +"Engineering Bay: The pistons on the side will start to pump, while lights flash when upgrades are being researched." Also if the Terran goes bio and plays passive with 0 drops by 13:00 then SCV pulls are likely. But the truth is SCV pulls can happen anytime, if Terran sees a window of vulnerability then he'll pull dem boyz. 
I have a shorter answer: 3rd CC at 8:00.
SCV pulls are generally designed to end the game when Terran is ahead, and the only way to get ahead is either 1) doing A LOT of early damage and just getting to the point where they're 30 supply up on 3 bases vs. a just established 3rd base for Protoss OR they go 3rd CC before extra rax and play greedy as hell (much more common).
So, in short: 3rd CC @8:00 -> early viking production -> a lot of noncommittal pressure -> SCV pull. Cake.
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On June 13 2014 12:01 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 11:05 Xinzoe wrote:On June 13 2014 10:29 OPDream wrote:
How do you know terran gonna scv allin you on 3 base (~10 vikings+3 ghosts)? What I know is if terran has low medivac count, it's highly possible to happen. How do you guys scout it? this is very hard to scout (at least for me) but here's what i notice. Most scv pulls come a little bit after 1/1 (2 base) or immediately when 2/2 is finished (3 base). I don't know if this is right way to do it but it works a little more than half the time. So let's say you have an observer watching his army (you don't need to watch entire army just one unit to see his upgrades) when you see 1/1, remember that 2/2 will finish 180-210 seconds later, so time a halluc phoenix and send it across to scout his Engineering Bays. Check if its upgrading, if not then expect SCV Pull. An example would on King Sejong Station, 1/1 finishes by 10:30, 2/2 will most likely finish by 14:00 Therefore send halluc phoenix at 13:15 to his ebays. To know if it is upgrading + Show Spoiler +"Engineering Bay: The pistons on the side will start to pump, while lights flash when upgrades are being researched." Also if the Terran goes bio and plays passive with 0 drops by 13:00 then SCV pulls are likely. But the truth is SCV pulls can happen anytime, if Terran sees a window of vulnerability then he'll pull dem boyz. I have a shorter answer: 3rd CC at 8:00. SCV pulls are generally designed to end the game when Terran is ahead, and the only way to get ahead is either 1) doing A LOT of early damage and just getting to the point where they're 30 supply up on 3 bases vs. a just established 3rd base for Protoss OR they go 3rd CC before extra rax and play greedy as hell (much more common). So, in short: 3rd CC @8:00 -> early viking production -> a lot of noncommittal pressure -> SCV pull. Cake.
Brilliant~
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Italy12246 Posts
It's entirely possible to take a later third, do a normal medivac timing and still do an scv pull. It's basically impossible to scout it before the terran pulls the boys, you just need to have some sort of built-in safety (like nonstop colossus production and delayed gasses at your third) in your build imo.
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I am a bit concerned to see the 2 base templar style as well as the Archon/Immortal/chargelot style almost disappear from professional play.
They former really suffers from the strength of ghosts and mines, the latter however (as can be seen here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/413873-zests-4-immortal-archon-timing-attack-pvt) was popular whilst the unnerfed hellbats were still a thing.
Just like zerg, protoss needs to trigger mines by sacrificing zealot or by using hallucinations.
How come this playstyle disappeared entirely from professional play? Anyone still doing this?
I want to try it but may need some up-to-date advice.
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On June 14 2014 19:05 Mojito99 wrote:I am a bit concerned to see the 2 base templar style as well as the Archon/Immortal/chargelot style almost disappear from professional play. They former really suffers from the strength of ghosts and mines, the latter however (as can be seen here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/413873-zests-4-immortal-archon-timing-attack-pvt) was popular whilst the unnerfed hellbats were still a thing. Just like zerg, protoss needs to trigger mines by sacrificing zealot or by using hallucinations. How come this playstyle disappeared entirely from professional play? Anyone still doing this? I want to try it but may need some up-to-date advice.
You just answered ur own question, mines 1 shot zealots and will splash to other zealots, making them 100%+ cost efficient. Ghosts makes archons useless because they get EMP when they just spawn.
Rain even said that the mine buff forces you to go macro (robo). not really sure if he really meant it tho
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Italy12246 Posts
Mines are really effective vs that style, most especially if you skip robo. You can still kind of do it though, it's just much harder than before.
Also, people figured out how to be relatively safe from scv pulls with colossus builds, which is why so many pros are going back to that.
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On June 14 2014 22:37 Teoita wrote:
Mines are really effective vs that style, most especially if you skip robo. You can still kind of do it though, it's just much harder than before.
Also, people figured out how to be relatively safe from scv pulls with colossus builds, which is why so many pros are going back to that.
Yes the second part is something i have not considered yet.
With regards to the robo: The style i linked goes robo first and plays without storm and instead goes zealot, immortal, archon.
With regards to the mines. I feel like P is now in the same situation as Z before where ppl claim mines are OP and gradually you learn how to properly "donate" units into the mines and then engage afterwards.
Also the style i linked was played before the hellbat nerf. Would you said that mines vs zealot now are worse than pre-nerf hellbats vs zealots?
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Italy12246 Posts
Dunno, it's a pretty different comparison. Hellbats just were crazy strong in straight up fights, while what mines do (mostly) is zoning your shit out so it's really hard to land storms, so it's quite the same thing. I still think opening templar is viable, but a colossus build would at least be considerably easier to execute.
Then again, i'm me and i love my high templar
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no storm before 3rd base. only archon, immortal, zealot
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Italy12246 Posts
I know, that was one of my go to builds a while ago. It's still viable because you can basically just hold his medivac timing and then counter attack, and by that time there's barely any mines (like there were hellbats) on the field.
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Also, I think the new buffed mines are more Protoss specific with their bonus shield splash damage. While the old mines (pre-nerf) were not as good as the current mines against Protoss, but just better against all races. IIRC the old mines were beginning to get used a fair bit in TvP too (and not just in TvZ) before the nerf hammer.
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I've noticed some people only upgrade weapons in PvZ, so I wonder if it's significantly worse than double forge. Can anyone explain please?
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On June 16 2014 07:57 darkness wrote:I've noticed some people only upgrade weapons in PvZ, so I wonder if it's significantly worse than double forge. Can anyone explain please?
Mostly because of zergling vs zealot. Zealots take 3 hits to kill one ling. With +1, you 2 hit lings. So you always want to maintain one upgrade ahead
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On June 16 2014 09:31 Xinzoe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 07:57 darkness wrote:I've noticed some people only upgrade weapons in PvZ, so I wonder if it's significantly worse than double forge. Can anyone explain please? Mostly because of zergling vs zealot. Zealots take 3 hits to kill one ling. With +1, you 2 hit lings. So you always want to maintain one upgrade ahead
as for the armor, most of the zerg damage dealers (roach, hydra, swarm host) do high amounts of damage per shot, which makes armor less effective as opposed to marines for example. it might be worth it to invest in armor if you scout mass ling play, idk, but seems to me zealot attack and forcefields are more important there
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United States4883 Posts
On June 16 2014 09:31 Xinzoe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 07:57 darkness wrote:I've noticed some people only upgrade weapons in PvZ, so I wonder if it's significantly worse than double forge. Can anyone explain please? Mostly because of zergling vs zealot. Zealots take 3 hits to kill one ling. With +1, you 2 hit lings. So you always want to maintain one upgrade ahead
On June 16 2014 11:18 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 09:31 Xinzoe wrote:On June 16 2014 07:57 darkness wrote:I've noticed some people only upgrade weapons in PvZ, so I wonder if it's significantly worse than double forge. Can anyone explain please? Mostly because of zergling vs zealot. Zealots take 3 hits to kill one ling. With +1, you 2 hit lings. So you always want to maintain one upgrade ahead as for the armor, most of the zerg damage dealers (roach, hydra, swarm host) do high amounts of damage per shot, which makes armor less effective as opposed to marines for example. it might be worth it to invest in armor if you scout mass ling play, idk, but seems to me zealot attack and forcefields are more important there
I actually think it's backwards: PvZ is not a specific case, PvT is. Attack upgrades for Protoss are infinitely better than armor since almost all Protoss units have a high attack already (particularly immortals and colossus) and they can zone things out with forcefields. The only reason we see armor favored in PvT is because it greatly reduces the efficacy of marines and also because Protoss is relying a bit more on storms than in the other matchups.
But also, there is the zealot/zergling thing.
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When you guys use dts in pvz, what is your priority? Do you go for drones or just kill hatch?
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On June 19 2014 09:43 OPDream wrote:
When you guys use dts in pvz, what is your priority? Do you go for drones or just kill hatch?
It depends, if you dont see any overseers, you can snipe a hatch with 3 dts before it finishes. Otherwise, you can spread out the dts into each base.
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Let this sink in:
Just played a 1 hour and 13 minute game vs Zerg on Merry Go Round.
When I left the game there were still 4 completely un-mined bases, mostly due to my great harassment.
Reason the game took so long? Guess what my opponent had 27 of?
...yeah I can see why Naniwa left over this.... 
I honestly felt like I lost a piece of my soul after that game.
User was warned for this post
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Need some help with PvZ, I'm currently diamond and struggling against zerg. I'm trying to execute the standard FFE -> phoenix -> 3rd build. This is the style artosis and tasteless keeps talking about as a "great ladder build" and I believe I saw Zest do this a few games last season, even taking a 3rd as late as 11:00+ minutes.
However I often find myself dying to a big attack on my third before I get enough stuff to hold. Like roach/hydra/corruptor or even roach maxes. I'm getting 3 gates, twilight, robo before 10:00 and try to establish my 3rd at 10:15-10:30 with like immortal/gateway units. Should I get colossus earlier/before taking my 3rd and also could the problem be that I don't do enough damage with my phoenix (I get 4), like picking off enough drones to hurt his economy and unit production. What do you think I should focus on improving here? I could also be doing the build wrong of course.
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Italy12246 Posts
Without seeing a replay i couldn't tell. It could be due to a lot of things: bad forcefields/engagements, bad scouting, not doing enough damage with your phoenixes, not macroing properly, or teching too hard and not having enough units.
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EPT
