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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On June 26 2014 01:49 Extenz wrote:
Am I the only one who struggles with Terran bullshit? I lose to every non standard Terran opening, 2 rax stim before cc, proxy factory, helllion mine marine drops, double reactor spam marine. Usually I scout And count the gas and if I dont see the reaper I get suspicious and make a forge plus gates but then after I defend its.like nothing happened and I try to push to win but they suddenly have an expo with a lot of bio and my colossus is miles away... I feel like I have no idea what is happening
You're probably just adding tons of unnecessary "bumps" to your build. Mothership core and robo defends almost all early cheese.
Even oracles can kill marines, and detect!
So keep it standard, and don't forget to probe and pylon etc  Don't let mechanics slip when under pressure. not all opponents are playing NR15 3rd base timings.
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Italy12246 Posts
I think if you scout any kind of terran bullshit and you struggle with defending it, doing standard wol style builds (cut the forge, get 3 gates up asap, don't cut units) along with overcharge should likely defend better. I'm not too sure though.
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On June 26 2014 01:49 Extenz wrote:
Am I the only one who struggles with Terran bullshit? I lose to every non standard Terran opening, 2 rax stim before cc, proxy factory, helllion mine marine drops, double reactor spam marine. Usually I scout And count the gas and if I dont see the reaper I get suspicious and make a forge plus gates but then after I defend its.like nothing happened and I try to push to win but they suddenly have an expo with a lot of bio and my colossus is miles away... I feel like I have no idea what is happening
against any non reaper with gas opening, u get robo at 4:45 and make stalkers continuously from your gateway until warpgate is done.
4 stalkers + observer will defend any hellion/marine, banshee, widow mine from damaging you. You can do all of this without cutting probes
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On June 26 2014 01:41 Teoita wrote:
With that kind of build you don't have any timing whatsoever until your 3/3 completes. If you want to do a colossus timing, cut out your double forge at least, and just go all-in with it.
I don't have a single forge in my build if I want to do a colossus timing. And yes, if its a macro build, double forges are made around 8 min. Thats not what I asked...
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On June 26 2014 02:26 OPDream wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2014 01:41 Teoita wrote:
With that kind of build you don't have any timing whatsoever until your 3/3 completes. If you want to do a colossus timing, cut out your double forge at least, and just go all-in with it. I don't have a single forge in my build if I want to do a colossus timing. And yes, if its a macro build, double forges are made around 8 min. Thats not what I asked...
Well first, if you want to do a colossus "push" with no upgrades, then its actually very close to an all-in. PartinG just likes stalkers more since he has excellent blink micro. You only really need 2 sentries with full energy. 1 guardian + 5-6 FF will break most bunker defenses.
Since u said 7 min robo bay, your colossus push should hit at 11:00 - 11:30 with 3 colossus.
If you want upgrades you can get a forge at 5:30 and have 1/1 finished when your attack hits with 1 chronoboost.
The upgrades are there so you can transition if your attack fails. I'm sure if parting didn't get 1/1 he wouldn't take a third base and just continue all in.
If you can give a replay that would be nice.
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Italy12246 Posts
Now i'm seriously confused...you posted the following:
On June 25 2014 14:46 OPDream wrote:
When you do 3 colossus push in pvt, what gateway unit composition is the best? I saw what parting did vs flash on outboxer somedays ago, was mainly stalkers + a few sentries. But if you watch Mana's stream, he likes to keep certain amount of stalkers and warp in large amount of zealots. Which do you think is better?
and
On June 26 2014 01:38 OPDream wrote:
My build is very greedy, 5:10 robo >6:00 gas at natural>7:00 robo bay+ twilight>7:30 2nd and 3rd gate.But i still don't have enough gas for sentries until i queue up my 3rd colossus. Another problem is I don't have any upgrade when I do this push, so I'm wondering is upgrade important when you do colossus push?
so i assumed it'd be the same build.
If you mean when you do a 3/3 timing, you should have more colossi (4/5) and you shoudl reinforce with zealot/archon. If this still isn't clear please rephrase your question 
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Thanks for the answers, yea I guess I overreact when I can jusr keep playing normal, vs gas first though doing 3 gates is free win cause it's the only time they have nothing when you counterattack
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United States4883 Posts
On June 26 2014 02:30 Teoita wrote:Now i'm seriously confused...you posted the following: Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 14:46 OPDream wrote:
When you do 3 colossus push in pvt, what gateway unit composition is the best? I saw what parting did vs flash on outboxer somedays ago, was mainly stalkers + a few sentries. But if you watch Mana's stream, he likes to keep certain amount of stalkers and warp in large amount of zealots. Which do you think is better? and Show nested quote +On June 26 2014 01:38 OPDream wrote:
My build is very greedy, 5:10 robo >6:00 gas at natural>7:00 robo bay+ twilight>7:30 2nd and 3rd gate.But i still don't have enough gas for sentries until i queue up my 3rd colossus. Another problem is I don't have any upgrade when I do this push, so I'm wondering is upgrade important when you do colossus push? so i assumed it'd be the same build. If you mean when you do a 3/3 timing, you should have more colossi (4/5) and you shoudl reinforce with zealot/archon. If this still isn't clear please rephrase your question
He's talking about the no forge, 2-base colossus all-in ala Squirtle. He's essentially asking "Is charge or blink better for this build and why?" I think we've beaten that horse to death though, and concluded that stalkers are just better most of the time.
If you're having trouble getting sentries up, try reversing the order: get an early sentry or two, delay your colossus tech, and delay your push by 30 seconds altogether. Maybe your opponent will have an extra round of units, but at least you'll have a healthy number of forcefields.
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On June 26 2014 01:38 OPDream wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 15:12 SC2John wrote:On June 25 2014 14:46 OPDream wrote:
When you do 3 colossus push in pvt, what gateway unit composition is the best? I saw what parting did vs flash on outboxer somedays ago, was mainly stalkers + a few sentries. But if you watch Mana's stream, he likes to keep certain amount of stalkers and warp in large amount of zealots. Which do you think is better? It depends more on your opponent's composition and how much gas you managed to secure earlier in the game. If you're gas heavy, I think stalker/sentry/colossus is always preferable; however, this is not always the case and sometimes you can really only afford 2-3 sentries and 8-10 stalkers, so you just fill the rest out with zealots. Generally you see blink/colossus in order to zone out vikings and punish drops, but charge/colossus openings seem to be making a comeback, and those, obviously, do better with a bunch of chargelots, especially if you can engage in an open area and force the Terran player to kite. So, in summary, I think it's all about how greedy you are in the early game and whether or not you go blink vs. charge. My build is very greedy, 5:10 robo >6:00 gas at natural>7:00 robo bay+ twilight>7:30 2nd and 3rd gate.But i still don't have enough gas for sentries until i queue up my 3rd colossus. Another problem is I don't have any upgrade when I do this push, so I'm wondering is upgrade important when you do colossus push?
the reason you dont have enough is because those builds use double 15 gas to bank gas for sentries early + earlier than double 6:00 gas. Its more like 5:45. Try something like double 15 2 on gas, get 1 stalker and then a sentry instead of a second stalker. Obviously this means you have to be more careful of what you opponents are doing but that's how the pro players fit the sentries + col + blink in. 3 in both gas after msc starts I would say if I had to guess(I havent done the build for a while). You shouldnt be able to fit in the robo bay till 7:20 assuming you make the 3 sentries first.
Note: 3 sentries will let you skip zealots entirely but imo its better to get a few zealots and a fourth sentry. gl
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Hi guys I want a certain build in PvP from CJ hero.
so its pretty much a 3gate blink attack but with 12 stalkers and blink finished by 7:30, no scout except to check for proxies
So here's the build layout:
9 pylon
13 gate (1:37)
15 2x gas (scout proxy)
16 pylon
18 core
20 gate (3:15)
23 warpgate/stalker
25 msc
26 pylon
26 twilight (4:25)
30 gate (5:18)
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Endless stalkers from gateways as soon as cyber core completes (no chronoboosts)
(0 probe cuts until 22 probes, EXCEPT for mothership core of course)
but here is the problem. no matter what kind of gas management i do i can only squeeze in 11 stalkers with twilight delayed until (4:50, thats 25 seconds later than hero's build, this forces me to use 2 chronoboosts on twilight instead of warpgate). I've tried almost 30 games vs ai to figure it out but cant get it to work. 
otherwise I've managed to get the entire build with exact timings down to the second like hero except for the twilight and extra 50 gas for 12th stalker.
so my question is if anyone know the exact timings where hero puts certain probes in gas? I know this is very specific but i really want to get the extra stalker in. thanks
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On June 26 2014 02:04 Teoita wrote:
I think if you scout any kind of terran bullshit and you struggle with defending it, doing standard wol style builds (cut the forge, get 3 gates up asap, don't cut units) along with overcharge should likely defend better. I'm not too sure though.
So if I play my buddy who always does a fast 7 minute stim timing (While still expanding somehow), I should 1 gate expo with mothership core, add 2 gates, then add robo? I assume I make 3 stalkers from the first gateway so I can kite bio.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 27 2014 22:07 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2014 02:04 Teoita wrote:
I think if you scout any kind of terran bullshit and you struggle with defending it, doing standard wol style builds (cut the forge, get 3 gates up asap, don't cut units) along with overcharge should likely defend better. I'm not too sure though. So if I play my buddy who always does a fast 7 minute stim timing (While still expanding somehow), I should 1 gate expo with mothership core, add 2 gates, then add robo? I assume I make 3 stalkers from the first gateway so I can kite bio.
1-gate -> expand -> robo -> add 2 gates/forge. Always tech before extra gateways.
Forge vs. 3-gate is stylistic, imo, but it all depends on how you like to play. I personally always preferred the forge style because you just kind of keep one forge going the entire game starting from 6:00 .
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On June 27 2014 10:24 Xinzoe wrote:Hi guys I want a certain build in PvP from CJ hero. so its pretty much a 3gate blink attack but with 12 stalkers and blink finished by 7:30, no scout except to check for proxies So here's the build layout: 9 pylon 13 gate (1:37) 15 2x gas (scout proxy) 16 pylon 18 core 20 gate (3:15) 23 warpgate/stalker 25 msc 26 pylon 26 twilight (4:25) 30 gate (5:18) -------- Endless stalkers from gateways as soon as cyber core completes (no chronoboosts) (0 probe cuts until 22 probes, EXCEPT for mothership core of course) but here is the problem. no matter what kind of gas management i do i can only squeeze in 11 stalkers with twilight delayed until (4:50, thats 25 seconds later than hero's build, this forces me to use 2 chronoboosts on twilight instead of warpgate). I've tried almost 30 games vs ai to figure it out but cant get it to work. otherwise I've managed to get the entire build with exact timings down to the second like hero except for the twilight and extra 50 gas for 12th stalker. so my question is if anyone know the exact timings where hero puts certain probes in gas? I know this is very specific but i really want to get the extra stalker in. thanks
It's actually not that hard. I haven't try yet, but think in this way. You can get 3 stalkers before your warpgate research finished, then you need 3 warping rounds to get the rest 9 stalkers. So the cool down of stalker in warpgate is about 30s, which means if your warp gate research can be done around 6min, the 12 stalkers is no problem.
Regarding the gas timing, 2 probes on each gas first, then 3 probes each gas as soon as you put down 2nd gateway.
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I tried it and it works! Thanks OPDream senpai. You are a life saver
3:40 warpgate starts, 2 chronoboosts allows it to complete by 6:00.
then 3x3 stalker warpins are possible by 7:20
Blink should finish 10 seconds after
Edit: Just tried some stuff. This is even more awesome. I make one more stalker from 1st and 2nd gateway before warpgate complete and i will have 13 stalkers + 1 zealot total by 7:25 with exactly 0 gas left after 3rd warpin!!!
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cheon maneyo~ Glad it helped
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When doing 1 gate > robo > +3 gates (PVT), against double drops stopping you from counter pushing, do you just split 50/50 in your mineral lines, delay the 3rd until you have 1-2 colossus, and keep the split army between 3 and not move out while defending? Ideally using a proxy to warp in some zealots at his 3rd which is inevitably mining much earlier...
Or if I can't even secure my 3rd by the time his is mining due to pressure, am I doing it completely wrong?
This is assuming he's being aggressive at all 3 no matter what you do. I tried to move out take my 3rd and warpins and photon overcharge barely defended double drops and I keep taking massive damage.
Oblig replay: http://drop.sc/383646
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Just when I figured 3 base scv pulls were something I couldhold more often than not, Terrans stop doing it. Well not really. They just do it on 2 bases now!
I am usually opening very conservatively with Rain's 1 Gate FE and then go into double ups Colossus. By now I figured out, that 5 rax, 1/1 ups and no armory (and ofc no 3rd) means: he'll pull the boys.
I thought I could hold that the same way I (try) to hold in a 3 base v 3 base scenario, i.e. constantly building Colossus, going up to 9 gates and CBing the hell out of my forges to hit 2/2 (which unfortunately still only finishes mid fight most of the time) and I am only trying to take a 3rd when I come close to mine out the main.
However, I keep getting crushed by this attack. The fights seem close but he'll end up with his rally and a lot of medvacs while I am stuck on gateway units. Shockingly enough, the remaining scv's + mules are enough to produce just the amount of units they need to overwhelm me.
Advise desperately needed.
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I'm looking to expand quickly in PvP while being safe from traditional 1 base aggression, such as the 4 warpgate, 2 gate robo, etc. Anyone know of any good ways to get a nexus down before t2? (robo, council or stargate)
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On July 02 2014 01:28 tar wrote:
Just when I figured 3 base scv pulls were something I couldhold more often than not, Terrans stop doing it. Well not really. They just do it on 2 bases now!
I am usually opening very conservatively with Rain's 1 Gate FE and then go into double ups Colossus. By now I figured out, that 5 rax, 1/1 ups and no armory (and ofc no 3rd) means: he'll pull the boys.
I thought I could hold that the same way I (try) to hold in a 3 base v 3 base scenario, i.e. constantly building Colossus, going up to 9 gates and CBing the hell out of my forges to hit 2/2 (which unfortunately still only finishes mid fight most of the time) and I am only trying to take a 3rd when I come close to mine out the main.
However, I keep getting crushed by this attack. The fights seem close but he'll end up with his rally and a lot of medvacs while I am stuck on gateway units. Shockingly enough, the remaining scv's + mules are enough to produce just the amount of units they need to overwhelm me.
Advise desperately needed.
Well, personally, i never build robo bays, but hey! i'm weird. it sounds like this attack is coming too soon for you, which means either you need to get there faster, or delay the attack. An oracle or warp prism could help you take your third faster (he can't attack while he's getting his worker line blown apart) as well as delay his push (cause he's gotta rebuild his blown apart mineral line) which means, by the time this attack finally comes you'll be just a little bit stronger, and the third will have already kicked in. just a thought.
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On July 02 2014 10:11 Goblinbiddin wrote:
I'm looking to expand quickly in PvP while being safe from traditional 1 base aggression, such as the 4 warpgate, 2 gate robo, etc. Anyone know of any good ways to get a nexus down before t2? (robo, council or stargate)
There are a few ways to get an expansion up. You probably want to take a look at one of these:
(a) Naniwa's 1 gate expand - The fastest expansion build I know that isn't straight up suicidal. It's easier to get your expansion up. Because you get it up relatively early, you can photon overcharge it earlier than any other build, but that also makes it harder to cancel it reactively if you think you can't hold it. Google it.
(b) 2 gate expand - Slower than the one above. Reduces the risk-reward factor of expanding, but tends to fall behind more economically oriented openers. Since you start your expansion later and favor safety, you're less likely to straight up die to anything. However, it's also harder to get it up and you're more likely to be contained. SC2john wrote a guide on it for the site.
(c) DT expand - This one is similar to the 2 gate expand build mentioned above in that it gets a slower expansion than Naniwa's build. Basically, you cut units - especially sentries - and rely on photon overcharge if need be until you have dts. You will have dts to deal with early aggression by the time photon overcharge expires, and it also allows you to get a robo just in time for dts too. SC2john wrote one of his "notes" on this one too. Basically, you go 15-15 gas, 6 probes on gas. MSC + twillight right away (I've seen Dear get a sentry first with this build, it's up to you), then 2-3 stalkers, dark shrine + second gate at the same time. You can get a robo before or after expanding. You may need to buy time against dts with force fields if you expand before the robo, depending on how fast the other player went for dts.
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EPT
