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On June 20 2014 02:13 Giftmacher wrote:
Need some help with PvZ, I'm currently diamond and struggling against zerg. I'm trying to execute the standard FFE -> phoenix -> 3rd build. This is the style artosis and tasteless keeps talking about as a "great ladder build" and I believe I saw Zest do this a few games last season, even taking a 3rd as late as 11:00+ minutes.
However I often find myself dying to a big attack on my third before I get enough stuff to hold. Like roach/hydra/corruptor or even roach maxes. I'm getting 3 gates, twilight, robo before 10:00 and try to establish my 3rd at 10:15-10:30 with like immortal/gateway units. Should I get colossus earlier/before taking my 3rd and also could the problem be that I don't do enough damage with my phoenix (I get 4), like picking off enough drones to hurt his economy and unit production. What do you think I should focus on improving here? I could also be doing the build wrong of course.
The Zest Build which i assume you are referring to is a pressure build which goes to 7 pheonix and simultaneously attacks with 4 gates +1 zealot WG timing. WG is delayed of course because it comes off a FFE opening. you get your robo a little after your 3 more gates and once the bay comes in you take your third.
you can decide to commit to the zealots or take a faster (8-9) min third
this build is quite multitasking intensive and requires some practice but is great for ladder yes.
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Italy12246 Posts
Zest also does the standard stargate/4gate/robo builds a lot, without any midgame timing.
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On June 20 2014 02:13 Giftmacher wrote:
Need some help with PvZ, I'm currently diamond and struggling against zerg. I'm trying to execute the standard FFE -> phoenix -> 3rd build. <snip>
However I often find myself dying to a big attack on my third before I get enough stuff to hold.
I have given up on that build. I don't think it is bad (it was my goto in WoL), but I know the attack on the 3rd is coming and I absolutely cannot hold it at my skill/knowledge level (45% w/lo ratio in PvZ in low Diamond).
On June 20 2014 02:13 Giftmacher wrote:
Should I get colossus earlier/before taking my 3rd and also could the problem be that I don't do enough damage with my phoenix (I get 4), like picking off enough drones to hurt his economy and unit production. What do you think I should focus on improving here?
If you go phoenix you are basically forcing hydras and an early fourth. As such, you need to be prepared for the counter at your third with something like colossus then sentries for space control.
My current solution to the problem is to heavily pressure the zerg. with something like a +1 gateway attack while teching to colossus or heavy sentry/immortal. I have been absolutely 100% unable to hold a sub-8 minute 3rd but I'm not sure I use gas units heavily enough.
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Just played a 1hr 14min game vs a meching Terren.
What do you do when they only make Ravens? and I do mean only Ravens.
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United States7483 Posts
On June 21 2014 13:11 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Just played a 1hr 14min game vs a meching Terren.
What do you do when they only make Ravens? and I do mean only Ravens.
Lots of high templar. Storm and feedback them. Add in carriers, pretty much the only time I'd advocate making them. Dump your excess minerals into zealot runby and harass, as well as extra cannons. Ravens can't kill buildings very easily.
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Could someone please explain, with a bit of detail, how/when to take a quick third against zerg without it getting canceled/killed. Preferably I would like a method that doesn't rely on phoenix openers because I don't quite have the apm to pull those off. So I guess that leaves me with oracle --> void ---> third or some sort of colossus ---> third strategy which doesn't seem to be as popular lately.
A few specific question:
1. How do I know what time I should be taking it. I see pros take it anywhere from 8 mins to 11 mins which seems like a very wide range to me. Even when I have full scouting info I have no clue when it is best to take the third.
2. How many units should I have/ where do I position them? I have also seen pros vary in this regard a lot. Some take the third with just a few gateway units then more warped in later. Some wait until the first voidray is out.
3. If I want to be super safe is it a big deal to add more than 1 walled in cannon? Like is 2 or 3 cannons way too big of an investment to ever be worth it?
I am high plat right now so I don't think it matters that I take the quickest or least expensive third. At this point I am sort of looking for advice on how to take the safest third possible at a reasonable time.
Thanks for the help.
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On June 23 2014 15:11 astj wrote:
Could someone please explain, with a bit of detail, how/when to take a quick third against zerg without it getting canceled/killed. Preferably I would like a method that doesn't rely on phoenix openers because I don't quite have the apm to pull those off. So I guess that leaves me with oracle --> void ---> third or some sort of colossus ---> third strategy which doesn't seem to be as popular lately.
A few specific question:
1. How do I know what time I should be taking it. I see pros take it anywhere from 8 mins to 11 mins which seems like a very wide range to me. Even when I have full scouting info I have no clue when it is best to take the third.
2. How many units should I have/ where do I position them? I have also seen pros vary in this regard a lot. Some take the third with just a few gateway units then more warped in later. Some wait until the first voidray is out.
3. If I want to be super safe is it a big deal to add more than 1 walled in cannon? Like is 2 or 3 cannons way too big of an investment to ever be worth it?
I am high plat right now so I don't think it matters that I take the quickest or least expensive third. At this point I am sort of looking for advice on how to take the safest third possible at a reasonable time.
Thanks for the help.
I'm falling into line here:
I am trying to make Fe into oracle>Fast third work for a while now. I've seen it several times done on stream by pros but the execution differs so much I haven't been able to deduct a go-to-build from it 
So far, I Fe then get a quick stargate for the orcale followed by 1 void for defence. I take my third with a zealot, 2/3 sentries and an MsC, while the oracle is building. Then I get a robo and 4 more gates.
I use the oracle to scout and force spores (only if i catch an entire mineralline unprotected, I use it to kill drones. it's main purpose is to deflect mass ling attacks on the 3rd though).
Now, my problems start with the follow up: do I go colossus or blink? or both? Zergs responses range from mass speedlings, to roach bustes, to roach hydra lings and , of course, mutas ( .. also, hydra ling into muta...). Often time Zergs get the dent and the spire and see what I try to make, if I go colossus they go muta , if blink hydra ling. I really struggle with the scouting and reaction here.
If anyone has expierience with this kind of build, I'd be gald about any advice as how to follow up the 3rd base build-wise.
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Italy12246 Posts
Your choice of followup is entirely stylistic. The 4 most common are:
1) 3stargates+robo. This build is very passive because you have the infrastructure to counter everything the zerg throws at you, and you can't really move out until after securing your 4th because your army is going to be super gas intensive (colossus/void ray mostly).
2) Colossus/blink stalker: similar to the previous one, you can move out a bit quicker because blink stalkers kick in before void rays do. I personally believe that this build is slightly worse vs mutas, as having blink doesn't balance the fact that you don't have 3 stargates worth of production, but sc2john disagrees with me 
3) Blink pressure before colossus: this one's all the rage lately; basically you get +2 and blink before your robo. Time your robo to complete a warp prism and observer (i dont remember the exact timing off the top of my head, watching vods makes it easy to figure out though), pressure with ~5 gates worth of blink stalkers, tech up behind the pressure (or commit to the attack if you see an opening). You should be able to hit before his production really kicks in, so you can force more lair units than he'd like.
4) Void ray/chargelot/templar: there's a TL strat guide i wrote about this style here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/441482-chargelot-archon-void-ray-pvz
All those styles are completely viable, and if you are losing it's because of execution.
In general, in that phase of the midgame your goal is to either set up a timing to finish off the game (say, by going 8gate blink without tech behind it), or setting up the infrastructure to counter whatever the zerg is doing (3stargate/robo), or some middle of the road approach of those (stargate/colossus/blink, stargate/templar).
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On June 23 2014 18:15 Teoita wrote:
3) Blink pressure before colossus: this one's all the rage lately; basically you get +2 and blink before your robo. Time your robo to complete a warp prism and observer (i dont remember the exact timing off the top of my head, watching vods makes it easy to figure out though), pressure with ~5 gates worth of blink stalkers, tech up behind the pressure (or commit to the attack if you see an opening). You should be able to hit before his production really kicks in, so you can force more lair units than he'd like.
Do you (or anyone) happen to know of VODs of this style? I know Trap did it in game 2 vs Scarlett yesterday, but I don't think those VODs are up yet.
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Italy12246 Posts
cjherO uses it a lot, check out his proleague games (especially on King Sejong Station). There's also a few good games in the last WCS replay pack, which includes GSL.
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alright, thank you! I think I will go for no. 3 since it forces me to be more active on the map. something i usually lack against zergs 
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Italy12246 Posts
In general though, 3base blink tends to skip the stargate, because trying to go oracle>blink>pressure>colossus is a lot of tech. If you play around with it and you find you can't get enough units, you could try to straight up copy cj herO's build order, skip the stargate and take a third off 3gates and a forge (or 4gates and a forge if you go FFE).
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United States4883 Posts
On June 23 2014 15:11 astj wrote:
Could someone please explain, with a bit of detail, how/when to take a quick third against zerg without it getting canceled/killed. Preferably I would like a method that doesn't rely on phoenix openers because I don't quite have the apm to pull those off. So I guess that leaves me with oracle --> void ---> third or some sort of colossus ---> third strategy which doesn't seem to be as popular lately.
A few specific question:
1. How do I know what time I should be taking it. I see pros take it anywhere from 8 mins to 11 mins which seems like a very wide range to me. Even when I have full scouting info I have no clue when it is best to take the third.
2. How many units should I have/ where do I position them? I have also seen pros vary in this regard a lot. Some take the third with just a few gateway units then more warped in later. Some wait until the first voidray is out.
3. If I want to be super safe is it a big deal to add more than 1 walled in cannon? Like is 2 or 3 cannons way too big of an investment to ever be worth it?
I am high plat right now so I don't think it matters that I take the quickest or least expensive third. At this point I am sort of looking for advice on how to take the safest third possible at a reasonable time.
Thanks for the help.
All of these questions are incredibly specific, and I don't think the situation is really complicated enough to go into detail on all of your points. So I hope you'll forgive me for answering in generalities.
My golden rule for taking a third in PvZ is take a third before 10:00 or you lose. Of course, there are exceptions to this if you do a cannon rush or the Zerg does some kind of early pressure, etc. But in a standard game, whether you FFE or gate expand, the third really needs to be up before 10:00. Generally, you'll see something like tech -> 4 gateways -> 3rd/more tech (so, for instance, the really standard phoenix/colossus is stargate -> 4 gateways -> 3rd/colossus). In this model, the 3rd base is generally taken around 9:00-10:00 with like a zealot and a few sentries plus whatever tech you got (DTs/oracle/phoenix, etc.). If you cut out the early gateways and just go for a third off of 1 gate, you can get it up by as early as 7:00-8:30, so that's where those "really early thirds" come in, and they generally work against a Zerg player who delays zergling speed until 9:00+.
If you want to be more active about securing a third base (AKA securing a 3rd using pressure), you essentially want to do mild forms of 2-base all-ins and abusing recall. For instance, players who open robo in PvZ will often do a pressure with 1-2 immortals and ~4 gateways instead of 7-8 while taking a 3rd behind their pressure. The idea is that you get to interrupt the Zerg drone saturation and buy time long enough that, by the time you recall, you'll be on equal workers with 3 bases up, and higher tech (usually blink and/or colossus) on the way. You can also do the same with things like phoenix/4-gate, warp prism attacks, DT tactics, etc, etc. These pressures generally get your third up and running as you move out, around 9:00-10:00 as well.
I recommend looking at the "Taking a Third and Transitioning" section of this guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/437101-power-overwhelming-pvp-immortal-archon-chargelot. Although it's over PvP, it might help you get some ideas about taking a third conceptually.
Hope this helps!
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On June 23 2014 15:11 astj wrote:
Could someone please explain, with a bit of detail, how/when to take a quick third against zerg without it getting canceled/killed. Preferably I would like a method that doesn't rely on phoenix openers because I don't quite have the apm to pull those off. So I guess that leaves me with oracle --> void ---> third or some sort of colossus ---> third strategy which doesn't seem to be as popular lately.
A few specific question:
1. How do I know what time I should be taking it. I see pros take it anywhere from 8 mins to 11 mins which seems like a very wide range to me. Even when I have full scouting info I have no clue when it is best to take the third.
2. How many units should I have/ where do I position them? I have also seen pros vary in this regard a lot. Some take the third with just a few gateway units then more warped in later. Some wait until the first voidray is out.
3. If I want to be super safe is it a big deal to add more than 1 walled in cannon? Like is 2 or 3 cannons way too big of an investment to ever be worth it?
I am high plat right now so I don't think it matters that I take the quickest or least expensive third. At this point I am sort of looking for advice on how to take the safest third possible at a reasonable time.
Thanks for the help.
1. the 3rd base timing depends on your opener and your opponents opener. Since you are plat, it is not very important to learn specifics yet but. In 90% of cases, you get your third when both bases are saturated (44 probes, OR 38 probes if u didnt take your natural gases).
44 probes mean you went for a tech base opening, stargate, Dt, watever.... (7:30 - 10:00)
38 probes is the greedy gateway-units only 3rd base. (6:45 earliest 3rd)
Keep in mind that since you are in platinum league, your macro might slip a bit so the timings are a bit delayed for you. don't feel bad if the earliest third u can squeeze out is 7:30
2. The safest way to get your third is build only sentries after the initial zealot/stalker. If the zerg has a bunch of lings moving around, then warp in 3 zealots from the 3 gateways, otherwise warp in 3 sentries. Then take third
The reasoning is that u get one hallucination scout at 6-7th minute mark to spot any aggression and react accordingly.
3. No, one zealot + one sentry is enough. the only time u build cannons is to wall off third, if you went FFE, or against burrowed roaches.
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When you do 3 colossus push in pvt, what gateway unit composition is the best? I saw what parting did vs flash on outboxer somedays ago, was mainly stalkers + a few sentries. But if you watch Mana's stream, he likes to keep certain amount of stalkers and warp in large amount of zealots. Which do you think is better?
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United States4883 Posts
On June 25 2014 14:46 OPDream wrote:
When you do 3 colossus push in pvt, what gateway unit composition is the best? I saw what parting did vs flash on outboxer somedays ago, was mainly stalkers + a few sentries. But if you watch Mana's stream, he likes to keep certain amount of stalkers and warp in large amount of zealots. Which do you think is better?
It depends more on your opponent's composition and how much gas you managed to secure earlier in the game. If you're gas heavy, I think stalker/sentry/colossus is always preferable; however, this is not always the case and sometimes you can really only afford 2-3 sentries and 8-10 stalkers, so you just fill the rest out with zealots. Generally you see blink/colossus in order to zone out vikings and punish drops, but charge/colossus openings seem to be making a comeback, and those, obviously, do better with a bunch of chargelots, especially if you can engage in an open area and force the Terran player to kite.
So, in summary, I think it's all about how greedy you are in the early game and whether or not you go blink vs. charge.
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Canada13389 Posts
On June 25 2014 15:12 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 14:46 OPDream wrote:
When you do 3 colossus push in pvt, what gateway unit composition is the best? I saw what parting did vs flash on outboxer somedays ago, was mainly stalkers + a few sentries. But if you watch Mana's stream, he likes to keep certain amount of stalkers and warp in large amount of zealots. Which do you think is better? It depends more on your opponent's composition and how much gas you managed to secure earlier in the game. If you're gas heavy, I think stalker/sentry/colossus is always preferable; however, this is not always the case and sometimes you can really only afford 2-3 sentries and 8-10 stalkers, so you just fill the rest out with zealots. Generally you see blink/colossus in order to zone out vikings and punish drops, but charge/colossus openings seem to be making a comeback, and those, obviously, do better with a bunch of chargelots, especially if you can engage in an open area and force the Terran player to kite. So, in summary, I think it's all about how greedy you are in the early game and whether or not you go blink vs. charge.
I would recommend he look into squirtles blink colossus all in from WoL. The build is somewhere on TL but I'm on mobile ATM and can't find it.
The stalkers are a better choice always when doing a colossus all in. Pressuring with them is hard due to their lack of mobility (compared to other toss units) and they are way more powerful as an all in unit if you attack with them.in the mid game before 2 port Viking production kicks in.
Of course if you have no gas some units are better than no units.
The entire game plan for stalker sentry Colo all in is basically this:
You ff so he can't stim his bio in to snipe the colossus, you have so many stalkers you overwhelm his Vikings, and the Colo bust down the door and weaken/kill his army enough that your stalker army snowballs out of control.
Also, if he goes for a lot of medivavs with no Vikings losing your sentries or Colo means you lose so vs few Vikings you will want to get chargelots since they do better as a buffer vs bio than stalkers allowing the colossus to stay alive and kill bio. If he has 2 port Viking you forced not medivacs and need lots of stalkers. Poke but don't commit if they over made Vikings and expand. They have less medivacs so stim does perm damage and they are unlikely to drop you much. Transition into charge archon delaying storm. If he counters before storm with lots of Vikings you die so put the gas into archon's and upgrades until your third is saturated.
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On June 25 2014 15:12 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 14:46 OPDream wrote:
When you do 3 colossus push in pvt, what gateway unit composition is the best? I saw what parting did vs flash on outboxer somedays ago, was mainly stalkers + a few sentries. But if you watch Mana's stream, he likes to keep certain amount of stalkers and warp in large amount of zealots. Which do you think is better? It depends more on your opponent's composition and how much gas you managed to secure earlier in the game. If you're gas heavy, I think stalker/sentry/colossus is always preferable; however, this is not always the case and sometimes you can really only afford 2-3 sentries and 8-10 stalkers, so you just fill the rest out with zealots. Generally you see blink/colossus in order to zone out vikings and punish drops, but charge/colossus openings seem to be making a comeback, and those, obviously, do better with a bunch of chargelots, especially if you can engage in an open area and force the Terran player to kite. So, in summary, I think it's all about how greedy you are in the early game and whether or not you go blink vs. charge.
My build is very greedy, 5:10 robo >6:00 gas at natural>7:00 robo bay+ twilight>7:30 2nd and 3rd gate.But i still don't have enough gas for sentries until i queue up my 3rd colossus. Another problem is I don't have any upgrade when I do this push, so I'm wondering is upgrade important when you do colossus push?
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Italy12246 Posts
With that kind of build you don't have any timing whatsoever until your 3/3 completes. If you want to do a colossus timing, cut out your double forge at least, and just go all-in with it.
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Am I the only one who struggles with Terran bullshit? I lose to every non standard Terran opening, 2 rax stim before cc, proxy factory, helllion mine marine drops, double reactor spam marine. Usually I scout And count the gas and if I dont see the reaper I get suspicious and make a forge plus gates but then after I defend its.like nothing happened and I try to push to win but they suddenly have an expo with a lot of bio and my colossus is miles away... I feel like I have no idea what is happening
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EPT
