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On June 07 2014 13:04 PiPoGevy wrote: Are carriers viable ? And if so with what races?
They are viable in late game against all races. In PvP, carriers > everything in late game lol. In PvZ, it works too, but mass voidrays is usually a better option. In PvT, it works well if you have storm.
This is completely and absurdly false. In almost every situation, having tempests is better than having carriers. Ironically, the only time carriers really work effectively is for timing attacks (this is ironic because it takes carriers 2 minutes to build). Carriers only really work well if you can manage to get them out before your opponent is prepared for them, making them mostly a "surprise" unit (which again, is ironic because they have a 2 minute build time). In all other cases, you're much better transitioning into tempest/HT for the ultra late game, as it's a much more stable transition and it also does everything that carriers do, but better because you always do damage for free.
30 tempests DESTROYS 20 carriers (equal supply), it's not even funny. In PvZ, tempests are the only real way to keep Blords from ripping you apart. In PvT, they do free damage without losing interceptors ($$$), cost less supply and less money, and they're good against any crazy lategame BC transitions. Oh, and they build in 60 seconds, exactly twice as fast as carriers.
My verdict: if you're way ahead or your opponent just sucks at scouting, go carriers. It's fun. Otherwise, if you want to play "4 realzies", just stick to tempests; they're way better.
What is the best the best response to a Zerg going for a quick 3 base opening with the gold base being taken before the natural on Habitation Station? I'm going to assume it's some kind of all-in build but I'm clueless as to what.
On June 07 2014 22:11 KatatoniK wrote: What is the best the best response to a Zerg going for a quick 3 base opening with the gold base being taken before the natural on Habitation Station? I'm going to assume it's some kind of all-in build but I'm clueless as to what.
I like to response like vs any fast 3rd from Z, but warp prism (drop immortals, warp-in sentry and block the ramp) and/or stargate harass (oracle) are very good on this map because of the huge airspace.
More minerals allows him to make more lings or roaches, that's why I like blink stalker or 4-gates less than robo or stargate.
IMHO an all-in can work, but taking advantage of the very vulnerable position of the gold is way better.
When opening gate expand against zerg. How do i hold a speedling all in which utilizes 2 hatcheries with queen injects. but only 18 drones. The one that have about 40 zerglings by 6 minute.
Edit: I find it unfair because your natural is almost guranteed to die and once they bust the natural they can soft contain you from your ramp and also drone up behind it.
On June 08 2014 13:26 toadahlmn wrote: When opening gate expand against zerg. How do i hold a speedling all in which utilizes 2 hatcheries with queen injects. but only 18 drones. The one that have about 40 zerglings by 6 minute.
Edit: I find it unfair because your natural is almost guranteed to die and once they bust the natural they can soft contain you from your ramp and also drone up behind it.
I posted similar question and Sated and John answered I put that link below.
On June 05 2014 13:02 the caz dog wrote: I'm having fundamental dramas in PvZ at the moment. I actually enjoyed the matchup in WoL, but now I feel so lost.
It's gotten to the point where I can't even seem to stick with a singular strategy because I seem to get smashed so comprehensively that I feel like I have to change how I play. I end up in this perpetual loop, and so never develop a reliable build (part of the problem I'm sure).
I want to play macro games vs Zerg. I like to open with a gate first and get some early aggression out (I like NonY's opener, for example, where you pressure with Sentries and Zealots before taking a third). I've tried Stargate openers and just find them underwhelming in that they don't aid me on the path to the mid-game tech that I need to stay alive. After taking my third, I just seem to die to mass Ling Roach, Roach/Hydra or even Ling/Hydra.
I guess my problem is in the mid-game...Can someone point me in the right direction?
I'm looking at maybe trying this to see how I get on:
Before I say anything else: In playing "macro" Protoss, the absolute hardest stage of the game is holding the third. If you can get over that hurdle, you're going to be in excellent shape. Most of the time the scenario is either a) buying time for 2-3 colossus to finish and using really good FFs to hold or b) having a lot of blink stalkers to defend, using good FFs and good blink micro. There might be a couple of other more "non-standard" ways of holding, but that's typically what you're aiming for.
The Feast build you linked is pretty old and, tbh, I'm not a huge fan of it. If you're going to be opening up with a void ray, I highly suggest a 6:30 third off of a single gateway. Otherwise, you should definitely open with a phoenix or oracle first to give you more space. I always recommend the NonY build, but if you're not seeing results with that, I think you should just practice the standard phoenix/colossus build and cut out the cutesy stuff. More than anything, though, just have a game plan going into the game. For instance:
Open gateway FE with a single geyser
Get a fairly fast stargate and begin phoenix production (up to 5) and take a third
If Zerg is doing bust (4 or less gases, no 4th), make an extra immortal
If Zerg is NOT doing a bust (all gases and/or presence of a fourth), skip immortals and go straight into colossus
Use colossus/sentry/zealot to defend ***need gateways up by 11:00***
Transition into blink stalkers and +2 attack
At 4 colossus and blink, move out and pressure the fourth with warp prism harassment
Transition into HT/archons and add on tempests after securing a fourth
Slowly starve out opponent by preventing the fifth and sixth bases and keeping your own bases safe
It's really important to have a list like this in your head or even written down (I highly recommend sticky notes) so that you have a clear idea of what direction you're always going in. You have to remember that a build order is not a way to play a game; it is a way to facilitate the game plan you already have. By switching "builds" and compositions constantly, you don't ever get a chance to really understand the big picture. So take a step back and really evaluate how you want to play the mid game and the lategame BEFORE you even begin to mess around with different openings.
On June 05 2014 14:02 eNtitY~ wrote: Is there any general rules or a guide to playing IAC and Collosi?
I always see top players keeping there Immortal/Archon count pretty even, usually 4 of each when taking a 3rd or pressuring. If you're playing Collosi it's pretty much Zealot/Collosi Archon right? And If you do so vs IAC should you normally wait for a certain number before doing so? Like 3?
Since the meat of IAC is the immortals and the archons, you kind of just want to have as many as money and time allows. Generally most players will cut immortal production for a little bit of time to get their production and infrastructure up, but the end result is usually about equal numbers of immortals and archons. For colossus-based compositions, you generally have to turtle a bit against IAC (although this is becoming less common due to the fact that 1-gate FE is kind of dead) and then push out with 3-4 colossus to punish the IAC player before they have tempests or colossus of their own.
In both compositions, the archons are really added on mostly as buffer units and FF smashers. They help a lot with zealots, but their main purpose is really just to make sure the immortals and colossi are safe and can't be separated from the rest of the army via FFs. Zealots are purely a fighting unit and you should never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever make them in PvP unless a potential fight is about to go down (or for harassment). A big problem for a lot of people is that they start adding on zealots in the mid game for no reason and then end up mineral starved for building immortals, cannons, extra gateways, a 4th base, etc., etc. Stalkers have a special place in PvP, but they are largely ignored unless you opened blink to begin with. There ARE a few wonky blink timings that hit when a colossus player has only one or two colossus and no immortals and stuff like that, but for the most part, stalkers aren't a vital part of the PvP composition wars.
EDIT: Also, you asked for a guide...I ASSUME you've read the PvP IAC Article, since that's where the term was coined, but in case you somehow overlooked it, there it is.
Is it possible to win if I do scoutless 15 Nexus first -> 16 gateway (in main) against 14 gas 14pool? What should be the appropriate reaction? Walling at the natural is pointless with no forge, no nexus cannon on time.
I've seen parting win against life with some sick sim city but that was mainly because of gateway expand and life did a 1 base speedling which is allin
On June 09 2014 09:18 Xinzoe wrote: Is it possible to win if I do scoutless 15 Nexus first -> 16 gateway (in main) against 14 gas 14pool? What should be the appropriate reaction? Walling at the natural is pointless with no forge, no nexus cannon on time.
I've seen parting win against life with some sick sim city but that was mainly because of gateway expand and life did a 1 base speedling which is allin
In the best case scenario, you MIGHT be able to wall off the main ramp with that gateway/core/pylon and MAYBE get a MSC out in time to kill the lings before they break through, but that's fairly unlikely. I would say it's straight up a build order loss (and it should be, you're being the greediest motherfucker in the universe with that build vs. an all-in).
The PartinG vs Life game is amazing not because PartinG held an early speed attack, but because he managed to hold it blindly after doing a build order loss. And, to be fair, the game was accidentally played on Fast speed, so we can't honestly say that PartinG could have held if it had been played at the proper speed.
On June 07 2014 13:04 PiPoGevy wrote: Are carriers viable ? And if so with what races?
They are viable in late game against all races. In PvP, carriers > everything in late game lol. In PvZ, it works too, but mass voidrays is usually a better option. In PvT, it works well if you have storm.
This is completely and absurdly false. In almost every situation, having tempests is better than having carriers. Ironically, the only time carriers really work effectively is for timing attacks (this is ironic because it takes carriers 2 minutes to build). Carriers only really work well if you can manage to get them out before your opponent is prepared for them, making them mostly a "surprise" unit (which again, is ironic because they have a 2 minute build time). In all other cases, you're much better transitioning into tempest/HT for the ultra late game, as it's a much more stable transition and it also does everything that carriers do, but better because you always do damage for free.
30 tempests DESTROYS 20 carriers (equal supply), it's not even funny. In PvZ, tempests are the only real way to keep Blords from ripping you apart. In PvT, they do free damage without losing interceptors ($$$), cost less supply and less money, and they're good against any crazy lategame BC transitions. Oh, and they build in 60 seconds, exactly twice as fast as carriers.
My verdict: if you're way ahead or your opponent just sucks at scouting, go carriers. It's fun. Otherwise, if you want to play "4 realzies", just stick to tempests; they're way better.
You could argue that in PvT late game, carriers have an advantage over tempests in that they aren't affected by mass raven PDD (and of course that sOs game on Alterzim still gets me excited). It's also nice to have some carriers if you're going for that mass air composition against swarm hosts with mothership cloak and multiple oracles. But yeah, as someone who uses carriers quite a lot, they are strongest for hitting 2 base timings against terran. In PvP, they are a completely wasted investment if the opponent makes tempests, so you should never even consider making them unless you are hitting a 2 base timing (which did actually work for me the couple times i did it against masters players).
hey guys I'm a Protoss player coming back to the game after almost 2 years. can anyone update me on the best basic build orders and general tips? thanks!
On June 10 2014 00:54 AceLunaris wrote: hey guys I'm a Protoss player coming back to the game after almost 2 years. can anyone update me on the best basic build orders and general tips? thanks!
How do you guys deal with a terran who's on 4-5 bases with plenty of orbitals and sacks tons of SCVs? I seem to have a really hard timing winning the fights.
Their army supp is so much higher its hard to take cost effective fights it seems.
On June 12 2014 10:08 eNtitY~ wrote: How do you guys deal with a terran who's on 4-5 bases with plenty of orbitals and sacks tons of SCVs? I seem to have a really hard timing winning the fights.
Their army supp is so much higher its hard to take cost effective fights it seems.
I highly recommend the 3rd section: "Controlling a Maxed Army". The biggest mistake that a lot of Protoss players make is just engaging into a Terran army and hoping they can land good storms, but they really need to do a lot of chipping damage first before they engage.
On June 12 2014 10:08 eNtitY~ wrote: How do you guys deal with a terran who's on 4-5 bases with plenty of orbitals and sacks tons of SCVs? I seem to have a really hard timing winning the fights.
Their army supp is so much higher its hard to take cost effective fights it seems.
I highly recommend the 3rd section: "Controlling a Maxed Army". The biggest mistake that a lot of Protoss players make is just engaging into a Terran army and hoping they can land good storms, but they really need to do a lot of chipping damage first before they engage.
Is it even possible to engage into a Terran army once they have an ideal Ghost/Viking count unless they fuck up? I feel like you really need to be playing the long game, with Cannon/Templar defences everywhere and attempts to deal damage with ninja Templar, whilst waiting for them to come to you. All things I don't have the patience to do and so I lose a lot to Terran haha :D
I think, that you should tech to Tempests, once you have the 4th expansion secured. Maybe it's just me, but I can't beat Viking/Ghost army without Tempests. And even if you have Tempest and mass cannon fields it's really hard, if your opponent has good control.
On June 12 2014 10:08 eNtitY~ wrote: How do you guys deal with a terran who's on 4-5 bases with plenty of orbitals and sacks tons of SCVs? I seem to have a really hard timing winning the fights.
Their army supp is so much higher its hard to take cost effective fights it seems.
I highly recommend the 3rd section: "Controlling a Maxed Army". The biggest mistake that a lot of Protoss players make is just engaging into a Terran army and hoping they can land good storms, but they really need to do a lot of chipping damage first before they engage.
Is it even possible to engage into a Terran army once they have an ideal Ghost/Viking count unless they fuck up? I feel like you really need to be playing the long game, with Cannon/Templar defences everywhere and attempts to deal damage with ninja Templar, whilst waiting for them to come to you. All things I don't have the patience to do and so I lose a lot to Terran haha :D
On June 12 2014 10:08 eNtitY~ wrote: How do you guys deal with a terran who's on 4-5 bases with plenty of orbitals and sacks tons of SCVs? I seem to have a really hard timing winning the fights.
Their army supp is so much higher its hard to take cost effective fights it seems.
I highly recommend the 3rd section: "Controlling a Maxed Army". The biggest mistake that a lot of Protoss players make is just engaging into a Terran army and hoping they can land good storms, but they really need to do a lot of chipping damage first before they engage.
Is it even possible to engage into a Terran army once they have an ideal Ghost/Viking count unless they fuck up? I feel like you really need to be playing the long game, with Cannon/Templar defences everywhere and attempts to deal damage with ninja Templar, whilst waiting for them to come to you. All things I don't have the patience to do and so I lose a lot to Terran haha :D
I think, that you should tech to Tempests, once you have the 4th expansion secured. Maybe it's just me, but I can't beat Viking/Ghost army without Tempests. And even if you have Tempest and mass cannon fields it's really hard, if your opponent has good control.
You can actually stay on colossus/stalker/HT all the way into the late game, but you have to continually create space for yourself so that you pick when the engagement happens. You can always deal with Terran by just retreating and storming, dropping different places, etc., etc. The scary part is actually engaging the Terran army, which you just can't do unless you've already done a lot of chipping damage.
Teching to tempests helps when you get into these "cornered" scenarios where you can't run and you don't have enough space to get away with templar flanks, templar pokes, and stalker pokes. Tempests allow you to get free chipping damage without needing space.
So, in the end, it depends on your game plan. Teching directly to tempests indicates you'd rather play a more static, defensive lategame that's decided by one or two big fights versus playing a more active colossus/stalker/HT late game that has you doing a lot of movement.
How do you know terran gonna scv allin you on 3 base (~10 vikings+3 ghosts)? What I know is if terran has low medivac count, it's highly possible to happen. How do you guys scout it?
On June 13 2014 10:29 OPDream wrote: How do you know terran gonna scv allin you on 3 base (~10 vikings+3 ghosts)? What I know is if terran has low medivac count, it's highly possible to happen. How do you guys scout it?
this is very hard to scout (at least for me) but here's what i notice. Most scv pulls come a little bit after 1/1 (2 base) or immediately when 2/2 is finished (3 base). I don't know if this is right way to do it but it works a little more than half the time. So let's say you have an observer watching his army (you don't need to watch entire army just one unit to see his upgrades) when you see 1/1, remember that 2/2 will finish 180-210 seconds later, so time a halluc phoenix and send it across to scout his Engineering Bays. Check if its upgrading, if not then expect SCV Pull.
An example would on King Sejong Station, 1/1 finishes by 10:30, 2/2 will most likely finish by 14:00 Therefore send halluc phoenix at 13:15 to his ebays.
EPT
