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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
United States4883 Posts
On May 28 2014 01:21 Shagrathsc wrote:
Hi all.
I just to post this here as requested by SC2John.
This is something I asked in Simple Questions Simple Answers topic, and may help you guys in PvT.
Here is goes:
How do I know in PvT, scouting after gate, that the Terran went gas first? It seems that when I get to the T base the gas and racks are already finished, so I cannot tell if it is gas first.
Also, related to the first question, is there any difference is the Terran gas timing when he goes:
1- Reaper scout -> play standard
2- Reaper scout -> add factory -> delayed mine drop
3- No reaper, quick factory and quick mine drop
If there is no difference in the gas timing, what exactly I should be looking for to identify those 3 scenarios? (assuming I cannot probe scout inside his base anymore)
SC2John reply:
Just click on the gas geyser . A reaper build (12/13 gas) will have about 50-80 gas mined by the time your probe gets there (~2:45), whereas a gas first build will have at least 100 gas mined. With 15 gas openers, the gas will have just finished.
If you can identify that your opponent went gas, your next step is to look for a reaper. The first reaper pops out at ~2:45. You can use a probe to identify this or you can just wait for a reaper to arrive at your base around 3:30. If no reaper by 4:00, he's either pooling reapers (very unlikely) or he's going factory with his first 100 gas instead of reapers. In this scenario, it's usually a widow mine drop, so prepare accordingly. The reaper -> widow mine drop is a little harder to identify, but it's not anywhere near as scary. Just keep in mind around 7:30-8:00 to look at your minimap. Your first observer should arrive at your opponent's base just before the drop arrives anyway, and your second observer will already be out in your base, essentially blind countering it .
John, just a question to add on this. It seems that 2:45 for a reaper to popup is too early, no? I would say 3:35 for first reaper, so around 4:30 in our base, and a red flag if it doesn't arrive by 5:00. What do you think?
Thanks!
Ah, you're correct. I got minute off. It's 3:35-3:45 depending on the gas timing. Tbh, I've been playing Zerg for the past few months and I haven't played this matchup at all haha, so my knowledge is a LITTLE rusty.
First marine is ~3:10, first reaper is ~3:35. 
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Hi all,
I'm getting absolutely hosed trying to do anything but 2 base allins. My PvZ actually used to be really solid and I had no problems playing a macro game. Same with PvT. But now I feel like I'm at a disadvantage trying to do anything but allin. On Waystation and Merry-go-round 3rd bases are just so hard to take against a good opponent. Only maps where I seem to be able to take a 3rd are Habitation, Overgrowth and Frost.
Any advice on what non-allin builds lead to 3rd bases vs Z and T. I feel like whenever I try to macro up it just gives my opponent too much time to do what they want uncontested. Unless I'm in their face from the very start I just can't get anythig done.
Rank ~20 diamond fyi.
Thanks
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On May 29 2014 00:04 DinoMight wrote:
Hi all,
I'm getting absolutely hosed trying to do anything but 2 base allins. My PvZ actually used to be really solid and I had no problems playing a macro game. Same with PvT. But now I feel like I'm at a disadvantage trying to do anything but allin. On Waystation and Merry-go-round 3rd bases are just so hard to take against a good opponent. Only maps where I seem to be able to take a 3rd are Habitation, Overgrowth and Frost.
Any advice on what non-allin builds lead to 3rd bases vs Z and T. I feel like whenever I try to macro up it just gives my opponent too much time to do what they want uncontested. Unless I'm in their face from the very start I just can't get anythig done.
Rank ~20 diamond fyi.
Thanks
Count me in as well for needing help, roughly the same rank and everything. I am having the same issues. Playing against a Terran that is actually good at drops is the stuff of nightmares, especially if they follow up with a mine push. Taking what used to be a normally timed third against Terran feels like a huge risk now, yet delaying it often puts me irreparably behind.
I've basically resigned to only doing immortal/sentry in PvZ and 2 base blink/colossus timings in PvT, but even then I am not winning nearly as much now because Zergs are starting to scout for immortal/sentry again and counter it. The only matchup I can consistently win in anymore is PvP, where I am sitting with a 70%+ winrate.
I've always been a macro-oriented player but playing those types of styles with this map pool is a real bummer at times.
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Saw this today on ladder and got destroyed by it. Also seen this in somebody's history, so it may be like a new thing? Never saw this.
PvP, I scouted pylon on my natural with gateway coming up. So I thought it's proxy 2 gate or some variation of it, prepared by adding 2 gates, cybercore and mining some gas to get my MSC ASAP. But little did I know that instead of 2nd gateway my opponent warped in a forge. So with first zealot he also started cannon rushing me. I already have troubles defending proxy gates, the cannon just kicked me in the face, what I should do to defend this? Can provide replay of me losing horribly to this.
Never really saw this, so it might be something new on ladder or I was just "lucky". Anyway, thanks for any tips.
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On May 29 2014 18:15 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 07:25 OsaX Nymloth wrote:
Saw this today on ladder and got destroyed by it. Also seen this in somebody's history, so it may be like a new thing? Never saw this.
PvP, I scouted pylon on my natural with gateway coming up. So I thought it's proxy 2 gate or some variation of it, prepared by adding 2 gates, cybercore and mining some gas to get my MSC ASAP. But little did I know that instead of 2nd gateway my opponent warped in a forge. So with first zealot he also started cannon rushing me. I already have troubles defending proxy gates, the cannon just kicked me in the face, what I should do to defend this? Can provide replay of me losing horribly to this.
Never really saw this, so it might be something new on ladder or I was just "lucky". Anyway, thanks for any tips. Keep your scouting Probe near the proxy to see what actually gets proxied. It could be proxy 2 Gate Zealot, but it could also be proxy 2 Gate Stalker or the build you came up against and those require different responses. The response is to match the opponent's proxy. In this case, make Zealots constantly from your Gateway and make Cannons between your base and their Pylons. Remember that they will likely only have 10 Probes, so any additional Probes you have can be used to fight initially. Try to maintain one Cannon more than them. Once the rush is over, go for a Robotics Facility because an Immortal can quickly get rid of the Cannons for you and because a lot of people will try a desperation Dark Templar rush once their cheese fails.
Thanks, sounds good, will try this if I get hit by this again on ladder.
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On May 26 2014 02:04 SC2John wrote:
ANNOUNCEMENT!!
As Teoita is too busy with life and being an adult and all, I have officially taken over as Grand Master and Lord of Aiur in the HotS Protoss Help Me Thread. That said, I will be posting updates to OP. If you have any thoughts, suggestions, or questions that you believe need to be added to OP, please let me know either here or in a pm.
Thanks in advance!
How to scout and defend gas/pool speedling rush when you choose 13 Gateway opening? (Sometimes they go 14gas 14pool, 13gas 13pool, or maybe a little bit faster. I'm not sure these variations requires different reaction.)
I'm masters Protoss on AM server but still not confident in this situation, and this kind of rush is pretty common.
Especially, I want to know pros/cons of several ways of simcity.
- Some players build 2nd pylon on low ground (in front of natural) for faster wall-off (and do 13 Gate scout). And they wall off low ground before Nexus when they scout gas/pool. How do you think of this?
- Is it better to build 1st pylon and gateway around mineral line, or walling 1st ramp?
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On May 29 2014 07:25 OsaX Nymloth wrote:
Saw this today on ladder and got destroyed by it. Also seen this in somebody's history, so it may be like a new thing? Never saw this.
PvP, I scouted pylon on my natural with gateway coming up. So I thought it's proxy 2 gate or some variation of it, prepared by adding 2 gates, cybercore and mining some gas to get my MSC ASAP. But little did I know that instead of 2nd gateway my opponent warped in a forge. So with first zealot he also started cannon rushing me. I already have troubles defending proxy gates, the cannon just kicked me in the face, what I should do to defend this? Can provide replay of me losing horribly to this.
Never really saw this, so it might be something new on ladder or I was just "lucky". Anyway, thanks for any tips.
could be just by accident really
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United States4883 Posts
On May 30 2014 18:45 Lapack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 02:04 SC2John wrote:
ANNOUNCEMENT!!
As Teoita is too busy with life and being an adult and all, I have officially taken over as Grand Master and Lord of Aiur in the HotS Protoss Help Me Thread. That said, I will be posting updates to OP. If you have any thoughts, suggestions, or questions that you believe need to be added to OP, please let me know either here or in a pm.
Thanks in advance! How to scout and defend gas/pool speedling rush when you choose 13 Gateway opening? (Sometimes they go 14gas 14pool, 13gas 13pool, or maybe a little bit faster. I'm not sure these variations requires different reaction.) I'm masters Protoss on AM server but still not confident in this situation, and this kind of rush is pretty common. Especially, I want to know pros/cons of several ways of simcity. - Some players build 2nd pylon on low ground (in front of natural) for faster wall-off (and do 13 Gate scout). And they wall off low ground before Nexus when they scout gas/pool. How do you think of this? - Is it better to build 1st pylon and gateway around mineral line, or walling 1st ramp?
Something I always say is that with gate expand you need to have a full walloff at your natural with a sentry by 5:30 in order to avoid shenanigans like this. Against 13/13 or 10pool variations, it's kind of a BO loss if you refused to scout (in short, you can't hold EVERYTHING blindly). I DO NOT recommend putting your second pylon on the low ground unless you are confident you will not be dealing with an early pool and only if you are going to build a zealot (because even a 14p16h build will be able to deny that pylon if you go no units -> nexus).
If you ARE scouting early, you just need to be more conservative and either cut some probes (or even your nexus) for a faster wall at your natural or just do an old-fashioned 3-gate sentry expand with a recall poke to scare the Zerg and prevent them from making drones.
As for building a wall at your main ramp, I personally highly disagree with it. It's super weak to 6pools if you don't scout (exposed pylon) and it can cause you a lot of headaches later in the game when dealing with mutas as blink stalkers will have to file in one-by-one and archons can't pass through the gap. To deal with 14/14 stuff and 10pool/bane, you can just simcity around your mineral line and use a couple of intelligent forcefields; personally, I've never had too much trouble holding versus these things. All in all, this might just be a stylistic thing. I really don't know if one or the other is actually better, it all depends on how comfortable you feel with certain situations.
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I have unusually low APM and I don't know if that's a problem or not.
I'm top diamond toss EU and I have around 70-90 APM. When I lose games it doesn't feel like it's because I'm out multitasked - actually I quite often out multitask my opponents. Sometimes I play more APM intensive styles (like heavy blink PVZ or collossi phoenix PVT) and it works just fine, with phoenix collossi I often finish with around 110 APM. I have around 20-25% redundancy, when I offrace from time to time as zerg on NA I'm plat and by default I get higher APMs than I do with main race, but still it's below 150.
Should I care?
Any replay >>HERE<< will be good to explain how it looks.
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I always lose in PvP when I transition to colossi after building some immortal/archon, and the other P goes 3 stargate and mass tempest/carrier/void ray. I always try to get more stalkers and storm, but it never seems enough. What should I do when the other P goes mass air? Go mass air as well? Storm seems very ineffective. Stalkers melt. Colossi get recked by tempest.
Thanks!
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On June 02 2014 01:35 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 15:25 Nowado wrote:I have unusually low APM and I don't know if that's a problem or not. I'm top diamond toss EU and I have around 70-90 APM. When I lose games it doesn't feel like it's because I'm out multitasked - actually I quite often out multitask my opponents. Sometimes I play more APM intensive styles (like heavy blink PVZ or collossi phoenix PVT) and it works just fine, with phoenix collossi I often finish with around 110 APM. I have around 20-25% redundancy, when I offrace from time to time as zerg on NA I'm plat and by default I get higher APMs than I do with main race, but still it's below 150. Should I care? Any replay >>HERE<< will be good to explain how it looks. I really wouldn't worry too much about your APM. Focus instead on being accurate with your clicks and keystokes. I had ~100 APM when I broke into Masters and I now have >150 APM pretty consistently just by playing a lot and getting quicker at doing things accurately. I'll even break 200 APM if I'm doing something like Blink Stalker micro because I've gotten a lot better at it simply by doing it over and over accurately. 70-90 APM in Diamond should be just fine.
agreed. zerg here with typically 120-180 APM depending on matchup and composition, but i've played plenty of opponents with 200-300 APM and shredded them. i'm not saying that to brag but to prove the point that APM means very little. i could tell from their play and watching the replays that a huge portion of their APM was just army movement spam clicks. you'd be surprised how many high level ladder players have really bad APM spamming habits that don't actually contribute to their play at all. of course there are GMs and pros with very high APM because they're just fucking good, but in dia-masters it's just spam
like Sated said, for any race it's all about learning to make the most intelligent and accurate movements possible. the rest is just physical/genetic ability for playing the game.
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Just did my before-last placement match and looking for a critique of my replay. I already know I should have defended my expansion and done more micro but I'm still learning.
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HOW THE HELL DO I BEAT MASS WIDOW MINES.
Seriously this unexplored style seems unbeatable when i played it.
I first played it about 8 months ago
replays: http://ggtracker.com/matches/4137392
I posted here about how to deal with it but got no responses
now i have a practice partner who does this and i figured i wanna practice vs him to practice vs it but lose everysingle time
I know this is extremely uncommon on ladder but protoss should be capable of winning vs this
I tried EVERYTHING and EVERYTHING gets shut down
the viking widow mine scan combo is just too strong. You cant make colossus u cant make tempest you cant make voidrays u cant make carriers everything just gets countered by this simple unit with such little cost its unbelievable
saddest part is i try to hard counter him game 2 with tempest storm turtle and soo much effort put into dealing with it and he happens to float soo many minerals while making a stronger army with less cost it doesnt make sense and this applies to mech in general
replays: http://drop.sc/381886
http://drop.sc/381887
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On May 28 2014 04:43 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 01:21 Shagrathsc wrote:
Hi all.
I just to post this here as requested by SC2John.
This is something I asked in Simple Questions Simple Answers topic, and may help you guys in PvT.
Here is goes:
How do I know in PvT, scouting after gate, that the Terran went gas first? It seems that when I get to the T base the gas and racks are already finished, so I cannot tell if it is gas first.
Also, related to the first question, is there any difference is the Terran gas timing when he goes:
1- Reaper scout -> play standard
2- Reaper scout -> add factory -> delayed mine drop
3- No reaper, quick factory and quick mine drop
If there is no difference in the gas timing, what exactly I should be looking for to identify those 3 scenarios? (assuming I cannot probe scout inside his base anymore)
SC2John reply:
Just click on the gas geyser . A reaper build (12/13 gas) will have about 50-80 gas mined by the time your probe gets there (~2:45), whereas a gas first build will have at least 100 gas mined. With 15 gas openers, the gas will have just finished.
If you can identify that your opponent went gas, your next step is to look for a reaper. The first reaper pops out at ~2:45. You can use a probe to identify this or you can just wait for a reaper to arrive at your base around 3:30. If no reaper by 4:00, he's either pooling reapers (very unlikely) or he's going factory with his first 100 gas instead of reapers. In this scenario, it's usually a widow mine drop, so prepare accordingly. The reaper -> widow mine drop is a little harder to identify, but it's not anywhere near as scary. Just keep in mind around 7:30-8:00 to look at your minimap. Your first observer should arrive at your opponent's base just before the drop arrives anyway, and your second observer will already be out in your base, essentially blind countering it .
John, just a question to add on this. It seems that 2:45 for a reaper to popup is too early, no? I would say 3:35 for first reaper, so around 4:30 in our base, and a red flag if it doesn't arrive by 5:00. What do you think?
Thanks! Ah, you're correct. I got minute off. It's 3:35-3:45 depending on the gas timing. Tbh, I've been playing Zerg for the past few months and I haven't played this matchup at all haha, so my knowledge is a LITTLE rusty. First marine is ~3:10, first reaper is ~3:35.
That is too fast for that build. The timing to be perfect.
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Russian Federation16 Posts
On June 02 2014 06:15 Shagrathsc wrote:
I always lose in PvP when I transition to colossi after building some immortal/archon, and the other P goes 3 stargate and mass tempest/carrier/void ray. I always try to get more stalkers and storm, but it never seems enough. What should I do when the other P goes mass air? Go mass air as well? Storm seems very ineffective. Stalkers melt. Colossi get recked by tempest.
Thanks!
I guess unless someone dies on the way, tempest-centered lategame in PvP is unavoidable. Stalkers or voidrays can beat mass tempest, but with an addition of (easily massed) chargelot-archon and a couple of storms, what can they do? Tempest has a dps of stalker, but also has 450 hp, 2 base armor, occupies just 4 supply and takes just 50 seconds to build (with 1 chrono). Storm is also almost useless against it, comparing to voidrays.
So I think PvP should be oriented towards mass tempest from the start. Unless, again, you plan some kind of timing with immortal-archon or colossi.
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EPT
