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Canada13389 Posts
On June 02 2014 15:14 Aldo_EU wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:15 Shagrathsc wrote:
I always lose in PvP when I transition to colossi after building some immortal/archon, and the other P goes 3 stargate and mass tempest/carrier/void ray. I always try to get more stalkers and storm, but it never seems enough. What should I do when the other P goes mass air? Go mass air as well? Storm seems very ineffective. Stalkers melt. Colossi get recked by tempest.
Thanks! I guess unless someone dies on the way, tempest-centered lategame in PvP is unavoidable. Stalkers or voidrays can beat mass tempest, but with an addition of (easily massed) chargelot-archon and a couple of storms, what can they do? Tempest has a dps of stalker, but also has 450 hp, 2 base armor, occupies just 4 supply and takes just 50 seconds to build (with 1 chrono). Storm is also almost useless against it, comparing to voidrays. So I think PvP should be oriented towards mass tempest from the start. Unless, again, you plan some kind of timing with immortal-archon or colossi.
You can't go fast mass tempest because you will lose to a lot of stuff due to the low DPS high cost of the tempest vs most things in the mid game.
The goal of charge archon immortal is to be active on the map and deny a third base or get a very greedy third base. You get collossus if the opponent doesn't get tempests - hallu scouts and warp prism pressure should help you see this.
Vs voids get storm. Vs tempest get tempests yourself. Colossus if you can afford as well.
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Italy12246 Posts
Also, straight Colossus builds can hit some sick strong +2/charge timings with 3/4 colossi, that should outright kill any IAC player trying to take a passive third and then teching to tempest. I imagine you could probably do something similar but with +3 in an IAC mirror, when you go colossus after your third and your opponent tries to get stargates up.
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Russian Federation16 Posts
On June 02 2014 22:21 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 15:14 Aldo_EU wrote:On June 02 2014 06:15 Shagrathsc wrote:
I always lose in PvP when I transition to colossi after building some immortal/archon, and the other P goes 3 stargate and mass tempest/carrier/void ray. I always try to get more stalkers and storm, but it never seems enough. What should I do when the other P goes mass air? Go mass air as well? Storm seems very ineffective. Stalkers melt. Colossi get recked by tempest.
Thanks! I guess unless someone dies on the way, tempest-centered lategame in PvP is unavoidable. Stalkers or voidrays can beat mass tempest, but with an addition of (easily massed) chargelot-archon and a couple of storms, what can they do? Tempest has a dps of stalker, but also has 450 hp, 2 base armor, occupies just 4 supply and takes just 50 seconds to build (with 1 chrono). Storm is also almost useless against it, comparing to voidrays. So I think PvP should be oriented towards mass tempest from the start. Unless, again, you plan some kind of timing with immortal-archon or colossi. You can't go fast mass tempest because you will lose to a lot of stuff due to the low DPS high cost of the tempest vs most things in the mid game.
Right, but what about late game? It's much better to have 4 colossi + 5 tempests than 8 colossi (given the fact both players have enough IAC).
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On June 02 2014 14:40 Rickyvalle21 wrote:HOW THE HELL DO I BEAT MASS WIDOW MINES. Seriously this unexplored style seems unbeatable when i played it. I first played it about 8 months ago replays: http://ggtracker.com/matches/4137392I posted here about how to deal with it but got no responses now i have a practice partner who does this and i figured i wanna practice vs him to practice vs it but lose everysingle time I know this is extremely uncommon on ladder but protoss should be capable of winning vs this I tried EVERYTHING and EVERYTHING gets shut down the viking widow mine scan combo is just too strong. You cant make colossus u cant make tempest you cant make voidrays u cant make carriers everything just gets countered by this simple unit with such little cost its unbelievable saddest part is i try to hard counter him game 2 with tempest storm turtle and soo much effort put into dealing with it and he happens to float soo many minerals while making a stronger army with less cost it doesnt make sense and this applies to mech in general replays: http://drop.sc/381886http://drop.sc/381887
FYI, the two replays you linked at the bottom are a TvZ and a PvT. In the latter the Toss goes proxy oracle and wins.
With regard to the mine vikings game:
First of all, you made the no. 1 mistake when playing against anything unusual: you didn't scout it in time. He goes 4 CC while you still hadn't established your 3rd base, all the while he is able to freely walk right up to your natural ramp with a couple of tanks and widow mines.
Still, you basically had him beaten at least 3 times that game yet weren't able to seal the deal, because in deciding moments, you just stop controlling your army (especially that air army battle) or even worse: you walk right on top of his widow mines even though you knew they were there (the first big battle when your colossus blink army died at his 4th).
In the late game, you keep on taking bases even so you are low on minerals and while you still have 2 bases mining with only a handful of workers thus preventing you from building units to stabilize.
Without those blatant mistakes, you could have easily won this game.
Now, as a general approach against this strategy: I only encountered this style twice as of now on ladder. It feels very strange to play against since it is so uncommon but the main thing you need to realize is, that your opponent basically cannot advance against your position if you don't let him: mines can only attack when they are burrowed and die oh so quickly when meeting thermal lances and vikings without support don't do anything if they have to fly over a ball of stalkers. So, a blink stalker colossus army should be able to zone out the enemy. It's the same delicate blink stalker/viking dance you should have played a hundred times before.
In case you have a hard time keeping your obs alive, build cannons out on the map as safe points to pull back to.
Once you've stabilized, make sure to get storm and archons. 2 storms kill mines even without detection and vikings must be controlled with even more care to not get caught between stalkers, storms and archon splash.
All the while you need to keep an eye on what the Terrans wants to do next, since he will probably try to transition out of mines when he realizes that he can't break you. At that point you should be able to just walk over him since his army shouldn't be able to keep up with yours while transitioning.
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Russian Federation16 Posts
On June 02 2014 22:29 Teoita wrote:
Also, straight Colossus builds can hit some sick strong +2/charge timings with 3/4 colossi, that should outright kill any IAC player trying to take a passive third and then teching to tempest. I imagine you could probably do something similar but with +3 in an IAC mirror, when you go colossus after your third and your opponent tries to get stargates up.
Right, I don't think there's safe transition to tempests from IAC, but after 4th colo of mine, what do I do next? Colossus heavy armies can't fight against colossi+tempests. Position always will be bad, both ground armies die very quickly. Then follows remax on stalkers on one side and chargelots on another...
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Thanks very much SC2John and SatedSC2 :D
Now I feel like "I know what to do". I will try both method.
Sated, I watched both vod and your replay. I have never queued zealot before cybercore but now I think its reasonable move!
Although I feel a little bit comfortable with gateway nearby main mineral (like John's suggestion) when I get early pooled, but again, I will try both style :D
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United States4883 Posts
On May 31 2014 21:26 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +As for building a wall at your main ramp, I personally highly disagree with it. It's super weak to 6pools if you don't scout (exposed pylon) and it can cause you a lot of headaches later in the game when dealing with mutas as blink stalkers will have to file in one-by-one and archons can't pass through the gap. To deal with 14/14 stuff and 10pool/bane, you can just simcity around your mineral line and use a couple of intelligent forcefields; personally, I've never had too much trouble holding versus these things. All in all, this might just be a stylistic thing. I really don't know if one or the other is actually better, it all depends on how comfortable you feel with certain situations. Even though it might be slightly weaker against a <10 Pool, it is much stronger against a ≥10 Pool and a ≥10 Pool is far more likely to happen. Gotta play the odds. It's even an auto-win vs. an actual 10 Pool because you'll have the Zealot out before a 10 Pool reaches you and then they're fucked; although that does assume you go Zealot before Cybernetics Core, which you should if you're going for a 1 Gate FE for the reason NonY gives in that video. Besides, like I already said, Probe vs. Zergling micro is much more important vs. an early Pool than building positioning. I don't buy the Mutalisk argument because everyone knows that Stalkers are trash vs. Mutalisks and Archons are too slow to defend against them regardless of whether or not they're too fat to fit through walls. You need Phoenixes or you're going to die. The Stalkers should have Blink anyway, and if they don't then they're going to have to filter through your natural wall-in anyway. As for not having the wall vs. a Speedling rush, having to simcity/micro in your main to hold against Speedling run-bys is infinitely more difficult than just having a Zealot on hold-position. I used to think that it was stylistic, but there really isn't a good reason not to have a wall.
I figured I should respond to this just to make myself clear. I honestly always start a sim city in my main with gate gas pylon core, so I've never had much of a problem with having to "emergency wall" or anything. And dealing with a 10pool is as simple as just doing a little bit of a dance while you wait on your MSC, so it doesn't bother me.
All in all, I keep coming back to it as a stylistic thing. For you, it seems like it saves you a lot of headaches in the early game while for me, not building a wall at the main ramp saves headaches in the mid game while making the early game a bit more difficult. It's a tradeoff, I feel like. It's a nice safety net in the early game, but it's not necessary, imho.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 02 2014 22:42 Aldo_EU wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 22:21 ZeromuS wrote:On June 02 2014 15:14 Aldo_EU wrote:On June 02 2014 06:15 Shagrathsc wrote:
I always lose in PvP when I transition to colossi after building some immortal/archon, and the other P goes 3 stargate and mass tempest/carrier/void ray. I always try to get more stalkers and storm, but it never seems enough. What should I do when the other P goes mass air? Go mass air as well? Storm seems very ineffective. Stalkers melt. Colossi get recked by tempest.
Thanks! I guess unless someone dies on the way, tempest-centered lategame in PvP is unavoidable. Stalkers or voidrays can beat mass tempest, but with an addition of (easily massed) chargelot-archon and a couple of storms, what can they do? Tempest has a dps of stalker, but also has 450 hp, 2 base armor, occupies just 4 supply and takes just 50 seconds to build (with 1 chrono). Storm is also almost useless against it, comparing to voidrays. So I think PvP should be oriented towards mass tempest from the start. Unless, again, you plan some kind of timing with immortal-archon or colossi. You can't go fast mass tempest because you will lose to a lot of stuff due to the low DPS high cost of the tempest vs most things in the mid game. Right, but what about late game? It's much better to have 4 colossi + 5 tempests than 8 colossi (given the fact both players have enough IAC).
On June 02 2014 22:54 Aldo_EU wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 22:29 Teoita wrote:
Also, straight Colossus builds can hit some sick strong +2/charge timings with 3/4 colossi, that should outright kill any IAC player trying to take a passive third and then teching to tempest. I imagine you could probably do something similar but with +3 in an IAC mirror, when you go colossus after your third and your opponent tries to get stargates up. Right, I don't think there's safe transition to tempests from IAC, but after 4th colo of mine, what do I do next? Colossus heavy armies can't fight against colossi+tempests. Position always will be bad, both ground armies die very quickly. Then follows remax on stalkers on one side and chargelots on another...
To be honest, it all comes down to scouting and buying time. If your opponent isn't transitioning into tempests, you don't have to either. If you ARE going to be transitioning into tempests, you have to do a very good job of buying time with zealot harassment and army movement or you'll end up in a situation where you have less colossus and vulnerable to a direct attack that will just kill you. Also, the wording of Teo's post is "any IAC player trying to take a PASSIVE third"; in other words, the same idea applies there. You have to be very heavy on the harassment and non-committal aggression in order to buy enough time for the tempests. Otherwise, you're just gonna get wiped out once the colossus player gets enough colossus and equal gateways.
For the ultra late game, you're aiming toward splitting the map and slowly adding on tempests and lots of cannons until you can defend pretty much all runby pressure with cannons and your opponent's army can't engage into your army plus cannons. It's pretty rare, but your goal is to transition into pure tempest with a mothership. If you trade tempests, just set up a hard IAC remax (like 4 robos/30 gateways).
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Canada13389 Posts
On June 03 2014 09:19 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 21:26 SatedSC2 wrote:As for building a wall at your main ramp, I personally highly disagree with it. It's super weak to 6pools if you don't scout (exposed pylon) and it can cause you a lot of headaches later in the game when dealing with mutas as blink stalkers will have to file in one-by-one and archons can't pass through the gap. To deal with 14/14 stuff and 10pool/bane, you can just simcity around your mineral line and use a couple of intelligent forcefields; personally, I've never had too much trouble holding versus these things. All in all, this might just be a stylistic thing. I really don't know if one or the other is actually better, it all depends on how comfortable you feel with certain situations. Even though it might be slightly weaker against a <10 Pool, it is much stronger against a ≥10 Pool and a ≥10 Pool is far more likely to happen. Gotta play the odds. It's even an auto-win vs. an actual 10 Pool because you'll have the Zealot out before a 10 Pool reaches you and then they're fucked; although that does assume you go Zealot before Cybernetics Core, which you should if you're going for a 1 Gate FE for the reason NonY gives in that video. Besides, like I already said, Probe vs. Zergling micro is much more important vs. an early Pool than building positioning. I don't buy the Mutalisk argument because everyone knows that Stalkers are trash vs. Mutalisks and Archons are too slow to defend against them regardless of whether or not they're too fat to fit through walls. You need Phoenixes or you're going to die. The Stalkers should have Blink anyway, and if they don't then they're going to have to filter through your natural wall-in anyway. As for not having the wall vs. a Speedling rush, having to simcity/micro in your main to hold against Speedling run-bys is infinitely more difficult than just having a Zealot on hold-position. I used to think that it was stylistic, but there really isn't a good reason not to have a wall. I figured I should respond to this just to make myself clear. I honestly always start a sim city in my main with gate gas pylon core, so I've never had much of a problem with having to "emergency wall" or anything. And dealing with a 10pool is as simple as just doing a little bit of a dance while you wait on your MSC, so it doesn't bother me. All in all, I keep coming back to it as a stylistic thing. For you, it seems like it saves you a lot of headaches in the early game while for me, not building a wall at the main ramp saves headaches in the mid game while making the early game a bit more difficult. It's a tradeoff, I feel like. It's a nice safety net in the early game, but it's not necessary, imho.
The way I see it is if you wall of the main ramp its only good vs 10 pool or thereabouts aggression. For anything that involves speed or a second hatch you will wall off the nat with a gate fe. So controlling vs the lings with a tucked back wall is the only tradeoff. And if we are banking on likelihoods then any early pool is unlikely.
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Russian Federation604 Posts
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Russian Federation604 Posts
Ps: loose to same sh1t, now terrans go for 2-4 reaper - proxy widow mine, dia tosses be patient!!!
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Ok so my problem at the moment is in PvT- I can't seem to get my composition quite right to deal with vikings whilst remaining cost efficient enough to deal with Terran's MMM ball.
Roughly how many stalkers should I have going into the mid-game if I open collossus? (I understand mid-game as the 9 to 15 minute mark). Same question but for the late-game? (I define late game here as templar+ 4-6 collossus on 3-4 bases)
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United States4883 Posts
On June 05 2014 00:17 SRGrasshopper wrote:
Ok so my problem at the moment is in PvT- I can't seem to get my composition quite right to deal with vikings whilst remaining cost efficient enough to deal with Terran's MMM ball.
Roughly how many stalkers should I have going into the mid-game if I open collossus? (I understand mid-game as the 9 to 15 minute mark). Same question but for the late-game? (I define late game here as templar+ 4-6 collossus on 3-4 bases)
In the midgame, you want to have ~6-8 stalkers total (this two-shots vikings) and you want to delay getting those stalkers for as long as possible. In the late game, it's around 12-16 stalkers (which will one-shot vikings). Pretty straightforward. Remember to always be poking around with the stalkers independent of your colossus/sentry/zealot ball so you can zone out the vikings better! It always sucks hard when the vikings just walk up to your colossus and get free shots while the bio army is just chillin around, waiting for the colossus to die :p.
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I'm having fundamental dramas in PvZ at the moment. I actually enjoyed the matchup in WoL, but now I feel so lost.
It's gotten to the point where I can't even seem to stick with a singular strategy because I seem to get smashed so comprehensively that I feel like I have to change how I play. I end up in this perpetual loop, and so never develop a reliable build (part of the problem I'm sure).
I want to play macro games vs Zerg. I like to open with a gate first and get some early aggression out (I like NonY's opener, for example, where you pressure with Sentries and Zealots before taking a third). I've tried Stargate openers and just find them underwhelming in that they don't aid me on the path to the mid-game tech that I need to stay alive. After taking my third, I just seem to die to mass Ling Roach, Roach/Hydra or even Ling/Hydra.
I guess my problem is in the mid-game...Can someone point me in the right direction?
I'm looking at maybe trying this to see how I get on:
https://protossbuilds.wordpress.com/2013/07/20/feasts-clever-pvz/
Any suggestions are welcome!
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On June 05 2014 13:02 the caz dog wrote:I'm having fundamental dramas in PvZ at the moment. I actually enjoyed the matchup in WoL, but now I feel so lost. It's gotten to the point where I can't even seem to stick with a singular strategy because I seem to get smashed so comprehensively that I feel like I have to change how I play. I end up in this perpetual loop, and so never develop a reliable build (part of the problem I'm sure). I want to play macro games vs Zerg. I like to open with a gate first and get some early aggression out (I like NonY's opener, for example, where you pressure with Sentries and Zealots before taking a third). I've tried Stargate openers and just find them underwhelming in that they don't aid me on the path to the mid-game tech that I need to stay alive. After taking my third, I just seem to die to mass Ling Roach, Roach/Hydra or even Ling/Hydra. I guess my problem is in the mid-game...Can someone point me in the right direction? I'm looking at maybe trying this to see how I get on: https://protossbuilds.wordpress.com/2013/07/20/feasts-clever-pvz/Any suggestions are welcome! zerg player here - against lair tech third base busts, unless your problem is macro or scouting (and you should be able to identify these problems easily since all you need to know is "this guy outproduced me" or "i had no idea this attack was coming"), you need to focus heavily on positioning and forcefields. positioning is of massive importance in zvp, especially in that critical moment when you're trying to get 2+ colossus and range out. make sure your army is in a location that makes sense at all times. if you're just sitting at home and trying to macro up, look at the architecture of the map and the position of your army and think ahead to when the attack comes: where do you want to forcefield? where do you want your colossus? where will zerg try to flank? then just use experience and logic to try to find the best engagement possible. if zerg is throwing lair units at you then time is on your side.
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Is there any general rules or a guide to playing IAC and Collosi?
I always see top players keeping there Immortal/Archon count pretty even, usually 4 of each when taking a 3rd or pressuring. If you're playing Collosi it's pretty much Zealot/Collosi Archon right? And If you do so vs IAC should you normally wait for a certain number before doing so? Like 3?
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United States4883 Posts
On June 05 2014 13:02 the caz dog wrote:I'm having fundamental dramas in PvZ at the moment. I actually enjoyed the matchup in WoL, but now I feel so lost. It's gotten to the point where I can't even seem to stick with a singular strategy because I seem to get smashed so comprehensively that I feel like I have to change how I play. I end up in this perpetual loop, and so never develop a reliable build (part of the problem I'm sure). I want to play macro games vs Zerg. I like to open with a gate first and get some early aggression out (I like NonY's opener, for example, where you pressure with Sentries and Zealots before taking a third). I've tried Stargate openers and just find them underwhelming in that they don't aid me on the path to the mid-game tech that I need to stay alive. After taking my third, I just seem to die to mass Ling Roach, Roach/Hydra or even Ling/Hydra. I guess my problem is in the mid-game...Can someone point me in the right direction? I'm looking at maybe trying this to see how I get on: https://protossbuilds.wordpress.com/2013/07/20/feasts-clever-pvz/Any suggestions are welcome!
Before I say anything else: In playing "macro" Protoss, the absolute hardest stage of the game is holding the third. If you can get over that hurdle, you're going to be in excellent shape. Most of the time the scenario is either a) buying time for 2-3 colossus to finish and using really good FFs to hold or b) having a lot of blink stalkers to defend, using good FFs and good blink micro. There might be a couple of other more "non-standard" ways of holding, but that's typically what you're aiming for.
The Feast build you linked is pretty old and, tbh, I'm not a huge fan of it. If you're going to be opening up with a void ray, I highly suggest a 6:30 third off of a single gateway. Otherwise, you should definitely open with a phoenix or oracle first to give you more space. I always recommend the NonY build, but if you're not seeing results with that, I think you should just practice the standard phoenix/colossus build and cut out the cutesy stuff. More than anything, though, just have a game plan going into the game. For instance:
- Open gateway FE with a single geyser
- Get a fairly fast stargate and begin phoenix production (up to 5) and take a third
- If Zerg is doing bust (4 or less gases, no 4th), make an extra immortal
- If Zerg is NOT doing a bust (all gases and/or presence of a fourth), skip immortals and go straight into colossus
- Use colossus/sentry/zealot to defend ***need gateways up by 11:00***
- Transition into blink stalkers and +2 attack
- At 4 colossus and blink, move out and pressure the fourth with warp prism harassment
- Transition into HT/archons and add on tempests after securing a fourth
- Slowly starve out opponent by preventing the fifth and sixth bases and keeping your own bases safe
It's really important to have a list like this in your head or even written down (I highly recommend sticky notes) so that you have a clear idea of what direction you're always going in. You have to remember that a build order is not a way to play a game; it is a way to facilitate the game plan you already have. By switching "builds" and compositions constantly, you don't ever get a chance to really understand the big picture. So take a step back and really evaluate how you want to play the mid game and the lategame BEFORE you even begin to mess around with different openings.
On June 05 2014 14:02 eNtitY~ wrote:
Is there any general rules or a guide to playing IAC and Collosi?
I always see top players keeping there Immortal/Archon count pretty even, usually 4 of each when taking a 3rd or pressuring. If you're playing Collosi it's pretty much Zealot/Collosi Archon right? And If you do so vs IAC should you normally wait for a certain number before doing so? Like 3?
Since the meat of IAC is the immortals and the archons, you kind of just want to have as many as money and time allows. Generally most players will cut immortal production for a little bit of time to get their production and infrastructure up, but the end result is usually about equal numbers of immortals and archons. For colossus-based compositions, you generally have to turtle a bit against IAC (although this is becoming less common due to the fact that 1-gate FE is kind of dead) and then push out with 3-4 colossus to punish the IAC player before they have tempests or colossus of their own.
In both compositions, the archons are really added on mostly as buffer units and FF smashers. They help a lot with zealots, but their main purpose is really just to make sure the immortals and colossi are safe and can't be separated from the rest of the army via FFs. Zealots are purely a fighting unit and you should never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever make them in PvP unless a potential fight is about to go down (or for harassment). A big problem for a lot of people is that they start adding on zealots in the mid game for no reason and then end up mineral starved for building immortals, cannons, extra gateways, a 4th base, etc., etc. Stalkers have a special place in PvP, but they are largely ignored unless you opened blink to begin with. There ARE a few wonky blink timings that hit when a colossus player has only one or two colossus and no immortals and stuff like that, but for the most part, stalkers aren't a vital part of the PvP composition wars.
EDIT: Also, you asked for a guide...I ASSUME you've read the PvP IAC Article, since that's where the term was coined, but in case you somehow overlooked it, there it is.
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Hey guys, Had some trouble vs a one base terran: http://drop.sc/382092
I was able to identify he was going for a pressure build so I tried going up to 3 gate immortal. I felt good after the second overcharge and saw that it was indeed one base after checking with my obs. I thought once I got out colossus I would be ok but his vikings brought them down easily. Should I have not gone for colossus tech? Saved up overcharge?
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Are carriers viable ? And if so with what races?
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On June 07 2014 13:04 PiPoGevy wrote:
Are carriers viable ? And if so with what races?
They are viable in late game against all races. In PvP, carriers > everything in late game lol. In PvZ, it works too, but mass voidrays is usually a better option. In PvT, it works well if you have storm.
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EPT
