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[TvP] Winning vs Protoss: Early Control into Mid-Game Domination
Tired of "OP" Protoss? Put on your big boy Hammer pants and start dominating Aiur. The build works well into the Master League and perhaps higher. Consistent 70% win-rate in Master League, and in lower leagues around 90%. The action begins with a quick marine/marauder/widow mine timing, transitions into wm/helloion drop, and finishes with a high supply mech timing push. The build is very safe, and counters almost all early Protoss aggression. As the game progresses, the main composition is Tank/BF Hellbat/Viking/Medivac/Ghost, although it can be changed to counter when necessary (ie; Blink Stalker = Marauders emphasis, air Protoss = Widow Mine/Viking emphasis). Hammer.1928 / hammerstarcraftii@gmail.com
A key aspect of this build is having a strong composition early, map control, and being able to compete with Protoss at every stage of a game. The initial push throws Protoss off their timings, puts on solid pressure, forces army unit chrono early instead of workers, and sometimes outright wins games. Another important aspect of the build is the ability to easily counter blink stalker play, and other one base Protoss tactics.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/T9HtBfB.jpg?1)
February 2015 Update! I've played several GM players with the build recently and have posted the games in the replay section.
December 2014 Update! I've adjusted the early opening to counter very early cheese play. There is now a wall at the main entrance, with 2 marines produced, before going into regular marauder/wm production and hitting the Protoss base at 6 minutes. This opening helps address msc/z/s pokes, proxy play, cannon play etc. I feel much more confident with this opening; that being said the original opening is still very strong, can be used on non 1v1 maps to greater effect, and works well if going gas first against random players.
10 Supply
12 Rax --> 2 marines then TL
13 Gas
15 Supply (wall)
17 OC
19 Factory
Build Order
10 Supply Depot
12 Refinery
13 Barracks
16 Orbital Command
16 Factory
16 Tech Lab (Barracks)
16 Supply Depot
(constant marauder production)
(constant mine production)
(clear natural with first marauder)
25 Supply Depot
31 Supply Depot
31 Concussive Shell research
34 Supply Depot
41 Command Center (at natural)
44 Supply Depot
Important: Engineering Bay immediately if no expansion at opponents natural. Place turrets in both mineral lines and produce non-stop widow mine, marauder. If the Protoss has expanded, pressure and put down a third OC when funds are ready, and start Siege Tank production immediately.
Execution
First Attack: This timing should be very tight. 3 maruaders, 1 widow mine should be leaving your base at roughly 5:10, with a 2nd widow mine almost out. Don't forget concussive shells! Keep producing non-stop marauders and widow mines, waypoint them to the opponents natural (or just outside). Proceed to do as much damage as possible to Protoss economy. I prefer to attack with marauders at the front, and walk widow mines around and into the opponent's mineral line. Whether it is dt, blink, 4gate, 3gate robo, or oracle play, this is a very vulnerable timing for Protoss. Another common scenario is Protoss has expanded and quickly initiates a photon overcharge. Pull back immediately, do not attempt damage. Keep building marauders, and widow mines, regroup and push after 60 seconds. With good control you should be able to do significant damage. If you don't, you have still done damage in the sense that Protoss is producing units when they would prefer to be focusing on worker chrono, and ramping up their economy.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vFsWN4H.jpg?1)
Drop Attacks: This a simple, but important and often effective drop, that can devastate Protoss worker lines. If it doesn't kill many workers outright, it will usually force spending on cannons, detection, and a reduction in mining time. Ideally the drop will consist of 4 widow mines, or hellbats/hellions. Another important part of the drop is scouting for Protoss tech, army composition, and expansion (3rd base) timings. Don't invest too much into drops, one medivac and appropriate control should be enough.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EI9EwgP.jpg?1)
Main Attack: The third and main push should be at roughly 14-15 minutes. The entire goal of this build is to slow, and whittle down the Protoss economy and have a much higher supply when this engagement happens. Upgrades are not important early on. Let me repeat, upgrades are not important early on. The singular goal of this build is to max out supply and crush the opponent before late stages of the game (although the opener can be used to transition into macro style bio or mech build ). With the inclusion of ghost play, upgrade advantages that the Protoss may have will be far outweighed with tactical EMP use, and a much larger army supply. Research only Infernal Pre-Igniter (and maybe +1 attack if desired, but not at the cost of producing units).
Pushing Out: Establish third base with turret, a widow mine or two, and bunker with marauders if available. Scan at the front of your natural to eliminate observers, then proceed to the likely Protoss expansion. You can alternatively scan, or scout differently according to your preference. As you're pushing across the map, put down 2 additional factories, 1-2 starports (with the intention of producing cloaked banshees) and begin armory upgrades. Engagement is simple: push in, seige, EMP (immortal/ht/grouped units should be the focus), and micro the battle as needed.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3xfa3xn.jpg?1)
Important notes
Build your early buildings in a way that provides vision. This will help reduce cannon rushes and proxy gateway builds.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/esy9rvI.jpg?1)
Sweep the natural expansion area with the first marauder. This checks for proxy gateways and nosy probes.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/K4VUdGq.jpg?1)
After the first push, build 1- 3 bunkers depending on what you feel the opponent is doing. Starting a depot/bunker wall at natural front is a good idea, as well as an ebay as the the initial attack is hitting.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NOXRorh.jpg?1)
Do not be afraid to adjust composition based on what you scout – you will get an idea of the opponents composition and plan from the initial attack, and the widow mine/hb drop in the main base mineral line.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/G8tulyh.jpg?1)
The main production buildings are 1 barracks w/TL, 1 factory w/TL, 2 factories w/RE, 1 starport w/RE. Although early game action may throw you off , make sure to always transition to these buildings for streamlined production.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FvsPD1U.jpg?1)
Replays
GM Opponents
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5774266
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5774269
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5774270
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5774276
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5753524
Updated Opening
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5700776
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5700777
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5700779
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5700781
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5700795
Original Opening
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5568606
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5568607
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5568608
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5568597
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5563654
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5568609
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5568610
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5290914
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5290915
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5290901
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5290838
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5290930
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5290905
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5290945
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5290896
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5290873
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5290882
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Really cool build!
But I've watched the first two games you posted, and in both games you bm your opponent.
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On March 14 2014 14:34 MrBarryObama wrote:
Really cool build!
But I've watched the first two games you posted, and in both games you bm your opponent.
Thanks, I like it! :D
Game one was just a GG at final battle, SC1 style. Sometimes I do that so people will GG and game over, rather than prolonging. The second game starts off with my GLHF, and him saying "duck you" :/ As far as I'm concerned once someone is rude like that, fair game. Generally I'm very polite, unless people are rude first. It's good to be reminded of good manners from time to time though, so I appreciate you saying that.
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How do u deal with mothership core?
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Habitation Station
The guy sent the MScore and killed almost all my SCVs and the first widow mine was not able to do anything till the second pop and killed the MSc.How to deal with this????
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On March 14 2014 17:04 DrDeep wrote:
How do u deal with mothership core?
Can you please specify. For example do you mean the initiation of photon overcharge, MSC attack in general, or MSC at your base?
On March 14 2014 17:30 Dvriel wrote:
Habitation Station
The guy sent the MScore and killed almost all my SCVs and the first widow mine was not able to do anything till the second pop and killed the MSc.How to deal with this????
Typically I will float 4-5 scv's on auto repair and lose a very small number of workers. In the meantime the mauraders and wm's do so considerable damage at the protoss base without MSC support and photon overcharge.
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I have watched every single replay, and I think in all of the games Protoss plays greedy or chooses a build that get's countered by your build very easily, so that's nice.
But I wouldn't play this build against a Protoss that plays safe.
Game 1 - 376737
Protoss sends out zealot to scout losing a unit, and has only 1 stalker and mothership core at home to defend, and already getting tech. Personally I don't like zealot scouting, since you are capable of scouting through either observer or oracle in time, while still being able to defend all of the Terran openings, cause of having a mothership core, a few stalkers and a sentry maybe.
Also I don't prefer staying on a single stalker, but getting 3 stalkers while still being able to get TC, SG or RF.
Game 2 - 376736
Protoss goes for proxy oracle which counters your build pretty much, but because he stayed on a single stalker and wasn't even trying to defend his natural with his mothership core or stalker. He could have done some damage with his stalker, maybe losing it but that way taking time to active Photon, while being able to damage the marauders with the mother ship core. His Stargate was in range of his natural, so he could have made a void ray and send his oracle back home to defend and kill the widow mine.
Game 3 - 376735
In this game it's a bit the same as the first game. He goes immediatly for the stargate for oracle, staying on a single stalker and mothership core. This is also very greedy in my opinion.
Game 4 - 376734
You are moving out and the Protoss is very aggresive with his first stalker and mothership core. He sees the build coming but instead of making 2 more units he is getting a robo, 1 more gateway and a forge.
It is possible for a Protoss to have 3 stalkers, sentry and mothership core, and since the Protoss is having his expand in-base. He could have done overcharge, a single forcefield and enough time to get a forge / robo to deal with the widow mine.
Game 5 - 376733
Nice build order win since is he getting TC and Expand, while not continueing stalker production, and even mismicroing his mothership core losing it to your widow mines.
In this case i got not a lot to say since it was defenitely a build order win in my opinion, which is very nice for you ^_^
Game 6 - 376732
I stopped after seeing a robo being build after the stargate, that build makes no sense. you either go for all-in together with gates, or you expand out of the build while doing pressure.
Don't get me wrong, it's good to play unorthodox sometimes and do builds like these, it's just that I don't his decision at all, and I would never do it.
Commiting all resources into tech dies to both pressure and economy builds out of Terran, even against a safe opening.
Game 7 - 376731
Build order win, very nice. I mean Protosses do this opening quit often, so i don't have a lot to say about this.
What I think
Don't get me wrong telling it was mainly the Protosses mistakes or greedyness. And on ladder a lot of people don't play safe, cause it's either boring or they rather all-in or play greedy to take games, instead of winning with true macro games.
I would like to see some replays against Protosses that play a safe macro game, and have to deal with the mid-game timing push you are doing (tank, hellbat, ghost/viking).
Do you have such replays? It would be nice if I can see it.
Defenitely keep developing your build! You are doing a great job.
I'm Protoss by the way.
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"But I wouldn't play this build against a Protoss that plays safe."
dont think many protoss does that in ladder these days XD
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On March 14 2014 17:47 -Hammer- wrote:Can you please specify. For example do you mean the initiation of photon overcharge, MSC attack in general, or MSC at your base?
Widow mines cant one shot Msc so you have to deal with msc harrass and msc attack. How do you overcome this?
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I'm very intrigued. I'm horribly bad at this game, but I'll try this and tell you guys my feelings on it. :D
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On March 14 2014 19:31 Probemicro wrote:
"But I wouldn't play this build against a Protoss that plays safe."
dont think many protoss does that in ladder these days XD
Very true, but I think Protoss is a lot letter late game in the long term (+ after a couple patches).
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What if protoss just goes standard blink stalker colossus (and doesn't sack units like in some of the replays)?
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Hammer, have you played some series type play against Protoss practice partners? So that you can get an actual idea of how this works if the reactions are more optimized as opposed to someone having to fish for a blind answer on ladder?
For example, I know that the number of times I've tried mech TvP, it's sort of a dice roll whether or not the Protoss knows the correct reactions and compositions to make. If they are familiar with the general style and reactions, then I get crushed, however, if they flail blindly with similar play as they use to deal with bio, it's a stomp. I'd be curious to see you play some Bo3 or Bo5 scenarios with a similarly-ranked Protoss player using this playstyle to see how it works out in the longer term.
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This build relies heavily on the protoss not scouting at any time in the game, making stupid decisions, or not transitioning properly. Basically. You need the protoss to be bad in order to win with this build.
There is a reason the select style 2 rax is dead. This is nothing but a gloried version of that build with weaker economy, less useful tech, and a huge weakness to everything a mothershipcore does.
There is absolutely no reason for a protoss to take any damage from either of your attack timings. Why? because your first unit comes out a minute later than normal. If the protoss can't figure out that you aren't making marines and have an early gas... It would be way easier and makes more sense to just pump out 3 marines while making the factory make the tech lab on the factory swap it to start making marauders and do the push a little later with 3 marines 2 marauders 2 mines and a medivac coming very soon.
Not only will the build look more normal to the protoss, because you can deny the probe and future scouts of your natural before you do the poke. Not only this, but if you get a widow mine shot off on the mothership core while pushing. with 3 marines you have a chance to kill it. Elevator play with the medivac that will be joining your units shortly will be much stronger.
Your second attack timing, the 4 mine drop is stupid. It's a completely unreliable harassment. Once you've shown mines a good protoss is going to get detection. Trust me. They can't mine their mineral lines if there are widow mines in them. You may slow the protoss down, but either way they were going to get a robo and/or forge before doing anything else anyways. Why? Because you have no units at home. All you are capable of is light harassment. You have 1 barracks 1 factory and 1 starport. Protoss isn't going to be aggressive against a 1-1-1...
If I'm a Terran and my strategy is to use 2 gimmicky timing attacks that at best will slightly disrupt the protoss mining time while waiting 15 minutes before attacking. I'm not going to win games in the match-up.
That being said the unit composition that you eventually attack with is strong, but how you get there is way sub-optimal.
This bothers me alot... so I'm going to say it again. There is no reason to skip marines while building the factory and tech lab on the factory. Yes your "timing" will be slightly slower, but you will have way more success at being annoying with the initial group of units. Not because you have more strong units, but because the protoss doesn't know that something strange is coming.
Don't focus on attacking the natural... Force out the photon overcharge if you have the ability to. Otherwise leave it alone. yes, maybe it's okay to try to sneak a widow-mine into the mineral line, but there is no way you should ever do reliable damage there if the rest of your units are there as well. Focus on elevator play. Use the mines to protect your position at the drop zone. Any unit you catch with concussive shell should die unless they commit to attacking your elevator. If they commit your widow mines will hit. Some games you will do minimal damage. But more than likely your marauder count with medivac support will start to snowball at the elevator, or the mine(s) you sneak into the mineral line at the natural will do significant damage.
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On March 14 2014 18:32 Gianttt wrote:
I have watched every single replay, and I think in all of the games Protoss plays greedy or chooses a build that get's countered by your build very easily, so that's nice.
But I wouldn't play this build against a Protoss that plays safe..
I would like to see some replays against Protosses that play a safe macro game, and have to deal with the mid-game timing push you are doing (tank, hellbat, ghost/viking).
Do you have such replays? It would be nice if I can see it.
Defenitely keep developing your build! You are doing a great job.
I'm Protoss by the way.
Hi Giant, thanks for your thoughtful and constructive feedback. I do have some replays where little or no damage is done to Protoss in the traditional sense. By that I mean, killing lots of unit or workers. The build however, still forces Protoss to build army, when they want to chrono workers, build static defence, when they would rather not. So Even in these situations, I seem to find myself well ahead in supply during major engagements. I will try to get those replays up later today, and you're welcome to message online any time. Cheers.
Hammer#1909
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On March 14 2014 17:04 DrDeep wrote:
Widow mines cant one shot Msc so you have to deal with msc harrass and msc attack. How do you overcome this?
Two widow mines can one shot a MSC :D With good control, MSC can be handled. When burrowing widow mines, you can select the target they hit by right clicking.
On March 15 2014 00:04 hellokitty[hk] wrote:
What if protoss just goes standard blink stalker colossus (and doesn't sack units like in some of the replays)?
The only aspect of this that can be a little frustrating is being kited back to their base (if they are out on the map). When a Protoss is going blink stalker, I typically have a higher percentage of marauders with concussive in the composition, which helps. Stalker/colossus composition is generally no problem for the build.
On March 15 2014 00:36 Jazzman88 wrote:
Hammer, have you played some series type play against Protoss practice partners? So that you can get an actual idea of how this works if the reactions are more optimized as opposed to someone having to fish for a blind answer on ladder?
For example, I know that the number of times I've tried mech TvP, it's sort of a dice roll whether or not the Protoss knows the correct reactions and compositions to make. If they are familiar with the general style and reactions, then I get crushed, however, if they flail blindly with similar play as they use to deal with bio, it's a stomp. I'd be curious to see you play some Bo3 or Bo5 scenarios with a similarly-ranked Protoss player using this playstyle to see how it works out in the longer term.
Great queston! I played several matches against a friend who is a very high Master League Protoss/Terran player. I won 3 out of 4 matches, only losing when I went with a bio composition. I have also faced a few players on ladder, multiple times in a row, and not dropped a match. I would be interested in playing a best of for fun against high level Toss, in order to test and improve aspects of the build.
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On March 15 2014 00:47 HungrySC2 wrote:
This build relies heavily on the protoss not scouting at any time in the game, making stupid decisions, or not transitioning properly. Basically. You need the protoss to be bad in order to win with this build.
I will have to politely disagree with your perspective, your opinions seem to be based on conjecture as opposed to real experience with the build. I'm also interested in knowing what race you main, and what league/points you currently have? For you to blanket statement that the Protoss "need to be bad" in order for this build to win, sounds somewhat naive. I am currently around 1600 points in the Master League and I have played Protoss players up to about 1800 points. That being said, this build has not been tested at the highest levels of play
You mention hitting at a later timing with a medivac, and marines and other units. Perhaps that's okay too. The timing and early composition of my build however is highly effective on several levels, and I don't believe a later attack on Protoss to be as good. You seem to contradict yourself; saying get marines to prevent early scouting and also that Protoss is not scouting what I am doing, therefore not properly reacting? Which one is it? I'll tell you. Protoss can scout as much as they want, until the first marauder comes. It has not made a difference in my experience. This also lends credibility to the build.
The fact is I am winning almost all my TvP matches at a reasonably high level of play. A very good player, with very high APM, would be able to execute it even better, so I imagine it should scale well.
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Protoss can scout as much as they want, until the first marauder comes. It has not made a difference in my experience. This also lends credibility to the build.
If a protoss is able to keep a probe in your base till the 5 minute mark, see that there is no expansion and that you are building marauders and a factory and still lose the game. They are bad.
The idea that it's strong even when scouted is a valid point. If and only if the build itself is strong. In this case it's not. Damage is completely reliant upon the protoss reacting incorrectly. This would be fine with most builds, but this build delays economy and any tech (other than hellion/hellbat drops) that could cause any problems for the protoss until the 14-15 minute mark in the game.
The strength of the build is that it is unique and unusual in the current meta. That is why it makes sense to get atleast 1 marine out to deny scouting.
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On March 15 2014 03:49 HungrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +Protoss can scout as much as they want, until the first marauder comes. It has not made a difference in my experience. This also lends credibility to the build. If a protoss is able to keep a probe in your base till the 5 minute mark, see that there is no expansion and that you are building marauders and a factory and still lose the game. They are bad. The idea that it's strong even when scouted is a valid point. If and only if the build itself is strong. In this case it's not. Damage is completely reliant upon the protoss reacting incorrectly. This would be fine with most builds, but this build delays economy and any tech (other than hellion/hellbat drops) that could cause any problems for the protoss until the 14-15 minute mark in the game. The strength of the build is that it is unique and unusual in the current meta. That is why it makes sense to get atleast 1 marine out to deny scouting.
You make some interesting points here. The first marauder however is finished at around the 4 minute mark, and should hold off further probe scouting. Until the build is used at the highest levels of play, the only substantive evidence is from my games, and I am winning an overwhelming number of matches utilizing the build.
Even if there is no direct damage done by the initial attack, and subsequent drop/s, there is indirect economic damage accomplished. Chrono must be used on early army units, expand/s delayed, static defence and detection needed. Protoss cannot happily go about producing a huge economy with low army count and no detection against this build. This, along with the current meta, and solid macro behind the initial push are the true strengths of the build. It is also highly effective against many common one base Protoss strategies.
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vs Proxy Oracle, do you just die, or is it a 50-50, because of Widow-Mines? I'm mostly curious about the 20% of losses you've experienced with this build. What kills you most? Protoss that do stalker timings? Skytoss builds? What about the old 3-gate void-ray? Or is is more a matter of if the Protoss plays well, they win? I could picture immortal archon just destroying this outright in an even econ scenario.
Dependence on WM for anti-air also seems like it would be weak against DTs, or warp-prism harass. Do you play against that much?
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EPT
