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On February 08 2015 19:51 Diamadoshikiller wrote:
Excuse me , can someone list seriously the criticisms made at BO removing criticisms that targets the creator of bo.
I worked in research and know that great things can be created and made by unpleasant person . But their work must be respected.
I'll be more specific here.
Besides the guide itself being extremely vague and providing no timings on gases, third CC, starports, when to drop infrastructure etc and simply listing when you should have X amount of stuff at Y time with no direction, I think the build is borderline "cheese into macro." Sort of like 2 rax against Zerg but you put the rax closer to your base so it's slightly more "macro" or doing a San Gate attack which is super cheesy but is technically "macro" because you have your natural.
Hammers Build strikes around 6-6:15 against an established Protoss natural. Hammer takes his own natural literally 3 full minutes later than the standard Reaper FE into Bio play, whether it's 3 rax 1 with TL one with Reactor or 1/1/1 standard mine drop play that is rapidly becoming more common. This alone is a huge turn off.
Protoss standard play drops a Robo Facility at 5:30. This means it finishes around 6:30, and an obs can be out by 6:50. It is well worth it for the Protoss to just delay probing up the natural for about 40 seconds before they then enter the midgame with a huge economic lead and Terran is behind on their core tech (that being stim, +1, and rax count/starport).
7:50 Bio Pressures and mine drop 1/1/1 off an FE provide a strong economic backbone along with a strong opportunity to do damage with open opportunities to run away if Protoss defends well. I can parallel this with Hammer's first push but with more econ.
His "Drop Attacks" that have absolutely no instruction on how to macro up to them may be paralleled to very standard medivac drop play with bio/stim that any standard playing Terran worth his water will start doing to Protoss around 10 minutes, and with a third dropping at the same time.
The final push (once again with no macro/infrastructure direction given) may be paralleled to the standard (and very very strong) SCV pull, whether it be 2 base or the 3 base with 3 ghost version. I think most would agree that SCV pull is stronger than a mech push.
Even without SCV pull, playing the Ghost/Viking game in the hands of a skilled player is more reliable than doing mech play that quickly falls off against Protoss players that make the Protoss hard counter units. Most of the games where Hammer's mech push wins are games he already won because Protoss was so far behind.
I've played Hammer on ladder before. Granted, I play Zerg as my main and Terran as my alternate, but every time I hit him, he used some unorthodox, and frankly, terrible strategy against me like proxy factory for 2 widow mines that killed a grand total of 4 lings before I just walked up to his base and kill him. I think he is a nice guy but I don't think his builds are very good at all. I've been playing Terran for awhile and I have very great success just sticking to the basics and playing the mechanics game with standard play.
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I will provide an answer to all these criticisms. I just need a little time to properly formulate answers .
I feel that the problem is that you try to understand the BO before practicing .
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??????? it's my main account.
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On February 08 2015 20:33 Jakamakala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2015 19:51 Diamadoshikiller wrote:
Excuse me , can someone list seriously the criticisms made at BO removing criticisms that targets the creator of bo.
I worked in research and know that great things can be created and made by unpleasant person . But their work must be respected. I'll be more specific here. Besides the guide itself being extremely vague and providing no timings on gases, third CC, starports, when to drop infrastructure etc and simply listing when you should have X amount of stuff at Y time with no direction, I think the build is borderline "cheese into macro." Sort of like 2 rax against Zerg but you put the rax closer to your base so it's slightly more "macro" or doing a San Gate attack which is super cheesy but is technically "macro" because you have your natural. Hammers Build strikes around 6-6:15 against an established Protoss natural. Hammer takes his own natural literally 3 full minutes later than the standard Reaper FE into Bio play, whether it's 3 rax 1 with TL one with Reactor or 1/1/1 standard mine drop play that is rapidly becoming more common. This alone is a huge turn off. Protoss standard play drops a Robo Facility at 5:30. This means it finishes around 6:30, and an obs can be out by 6:50. It is well worth it for the Protoss to just delay probing up the natural for about 40 seconds before they then enter the midgame with a huge economic lead and Terran is behind on their core tech (that being stim, +1, and rax count/starport). 7:50 Bio Pressures and mine drop 1/1/1 off an FE provide a strong economic backbone along with a strong opportunity to do damage with open opportunities to run away if Protoss defends well. I can parallel this with Hammer's first push but with more econ. His "Drop Attacks" that have absolutely no instruction on how to macro up to them may be paralleled to very standard medivac drop play with bio/stim that any standard playing Terran worth his water will start doing to Protoss around 10 minutes, and with a third dropping at the same time. The final push (once again with no macro/infrastructure direction given) may be paralleled to the standard (and very very strong) SCV pull, whether it be 2 base or the 3 base with 3 ghost version. I think most would agree that SCV pull is stronger than a mech push. Even without SCV pull, playing the Ghost/Viking game in the hands of a skilled player is more reliable than doing mech play that quickly falls off against Protoss players that make the Protoss hard counter units. Most of the games where Hammer's mech push wins are games he already won because Protoss was so far behind. I've played Hammer on ladder before. Granted, I play Zerg as my main and Terran as my alternate, but every time I hit him, he used some unorthodox, and frankly, terrible strategy against me like proxy factory for 2 widow mines that killed a grand total of 4 lings before I just walked up to his base and kill him. I think he is a nice guy but I don't think his builds are very good at all. I've been playing Terran for awhile and I have very great success just sticking to the basics and playing the mechanics game with standard play.
I have never used a proxy factory in TvZ lol, I think you're confused... if you don't think my builds are good that's okay, but make sure you know what you're talking about before commenting on something 
In reference to the TvP build being inferior to standard reaper expand, you might be right, but only against certain Protoss builds. My opening counters so much early Protoss cheese though, and allows you to properly pressure Protoss standard timings and greed; by forcing chrono'd army instead of workers, and also gives a really solid idea of what composition the Protoss army is going, all while getting a 2nd and 3rd CC behind it. Any macro lost by the later expand is gained with the addition of an in-base third.
I don't know how many times I have seen Terran pro's get wrecked early going standard, where had they used my build they would have been completely fine. You also forget that you can transition bio off the opening as well, which I do sometimes. And if I'm going up against some type of 1 base play I almost always go into a 2base bio play.
In terms of macro comparisons to something pro Koreans would use, the build is more similar to a wm/marine drop timing that high level players are using to pressure Protoss early; the difference being I get a much earlier third.
My TvP w/l ratio is generally much higher than most Terran players in Master League, and I do it with lower APM than most players at that level. I have a GM friend who uses the build regularly, along with standard play, and he has great success with both! It doesn't need to be a players only build, the more tactics we have the better.
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Germany25658 Posts
On February 09 2015 04:13 SatedSC2 wrote:Of course you're not. New account with all posts in this one thread, but definitely not a smurf! 
He isn't a smurf, stop trying to derail the thread. Back on topic please
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Interesting.
Makes me wonder why someone would bother signing up just to post in one thread o_O
Witnessing the stupidity of a man can empower people to do a lot....
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On February 09 2015 04:26 -Hammer- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2015 20:33 Jakamakala wrote:On February 08 2015 19:51 Diamadoshikiller wrote:
Excuse me , can someone list seriously the criticisms made at BO removing criticisms that targets the creator of bo.
I worked in research and know that great things can be created and made by unpleasant person . But their work must be respected. I'll be more specific here. Besides the guide itself being extremely vague and providing no timings on gases, third CC, starports, when to drop infrastructure etc and simply listing when you should have X amount of stuff at Y time with no direction, I think the build is borderline "cheese into macro." Sort of like 2 rax against Zerg but you put the rax closer to your base so it's slightly more "macro" or doing a San Gate attack which is super cheesy but is technically "macro" because you have your natural. Hammers Build strikes around 6-6:15 against an established Protoss natural. Hammer takes his own natural literally 3 full minutes later than the standard Reaper FE into Bio play, whether it's 3 rax 1 with TL one with Reactor or 1/1/1 standard mine drop play that is rapidly becoming more common. This alone is a huge turn off. Protoss standard play drops a Robo Facility at 5:30. This means it finishes around 6:30, and an obs can be out by 6:50. It is well worth it for the Protoss to just delay probing up the natural for about 40 seconds before they then enter the midgame with a huge economic lead and Terran is behind on their core tech (that being stim, +1, and rax count/starport). 7:50 Bio Pressures and mine drop 1/1/1 off an FE provide a strong economic backbone along with a strong opportunity to do damage with open opportunities to run away if Protoss defends well. I can parallel this with Hammer's first push but with more econ. His "Drop Attacks" that have absolutely no instruction on how to macro up to them may be paralleled to very standard medivac drop play with bio/stim that any standard playing Terran worth his water will start doing to Protoss around 10 minutes, and with a third dropping at the same time. The final push (once again with no macro/infrastructure direction given) may be paralleled to the standard (and very very strong) SCV pull, whether it be 2 base or the 3 base with 3 ghost version. I think most would agree that SCV pull is stronger than a mech push. Even without SCV pull, playing the Ghost/Viking game in the hands of a skilled player is more reliable than doing mech play that quickly falls off against Protoss players that make the Protoss hard counter units. Most of the games where Hammer's mech push wins are games he already won because Protoss was so far behind. I've played Hammer on ladder before. Granted, I play Zerg as my main and Terran as my alternate, but every time I hit him, he used some unorthodox, and frankly, terrible strategy against me like proxy factory for 2 widow mines that killed a grand total of 4 lings before I just walked up to his base and kill him. I think he is a nice guy but I don't think his builds are very good at all. I've been playing Terran for awhile and I have very great success just sticking to the basics and playing the mechanics game with standard play. I have never used a proxy factory in TvZ lol, I think you're confused... if you don't think my builds are good that's okay, but make sure you know what you're talking about before commenting on something In reference to the TvP build being inferior to standard reaper expand, you might be right, but only against certain Protoss builds. My opening counters so much early Protoss cheese though, and allows you to properly pressure Protoss standard timings and greed; by forcing chrono'd army instead of workers, and also gives a really solid idea of what composition the Protoss army is going, all while getting a 2nd and 3rd CC behind it. Any macro lost by the later expand is gained with the addition of an in-base third. I don't know how many times I have seen Terran pro's get wrecked early going standard, where had they used my build they would have been completely fine. You also forget that you can transition bio off the opening as well, which I do sometimes. And if I'm going up against some type of 1 base play I almost always go into a 2base bio play. In terms of macro comparisons to something pro Koreans would use, the build is more similar to a wm/marine drop timing that high level players are using to pressure Protoss early; the difference being I get a much earlier third. My TvP w/l ratio is generally much higher than most Terran players in Master League, and I do it with lower APM than most players at that level. I have a GM friend who uses the build regularly, along with standard play, and he has great success with both! It doesn't need to be a players only build, the more tactics we have the better.
You're right it wasn't proxy it was a gas first widow mine build that still made absolutely no sense followed by a gimmicky mass hellion attack into having no units at home and dying:
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5794673
Sorry about that it took awhile to find the replay.
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SatedSC2 i'm Diamadoshi, a french Terran. I'm very bad in english even if i make a PhD...(French people...)
I writed some topic on the french bnet SC2 forum. I'm passionated to TvP. I'm top platine but my level in TvP it's more diamond because i train a lot versus them. My TvT it's so bad (around 35%) that why i will never be diamond.
My goal in SC2 now it's to help other low league terran player (gold/diamond) in TvP. That why i write:
"TvP, le Hammer" 01/28/205
" Scouter unToss, ou l’art de voir ce qu’on ne voit pas" 10/14/2014
"Comment attaquer un Protoss ?" 09/29/2014
"13 gas Fe into window mine" 09/11/204
"Le KOREAN 2 RAX en TvP (HOTS)" 01/20/2014
and other...
I have around 9000 games...
Yes I am and seriously i think this BO is really interesting for low league terran.
Why i never used this build before it's because all people say it's a mecha build. I hate mecha. But in reality this BO it's not a mecha. For me it's a macro variation of the "noctipush".
Sorry for my english, i will aswer later to Jakamakala.
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On February 09 2015 06:52 Jakamakala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 04:26 -Hammer- wrote:On February 08 2015 20:33 Jakamakala wrote:On February 08 2015 19:51 Diamadoshikiller wrote:
Excuse me , can someone list seriously the criticisms made at BO removing criticisms that targets the creator of bo.
I worked in research and know that great things can be created and made by unpleasant person . But their work must be respected. I'll be more specific here. Besides the guide itself being extremely vague and providing no timings on gases, third CC, starports, when to drop infrastructure etc and simply listing when you should have X amount of stuff at Y time with no direction, I think the build is borderline "cheese into macro." Sort of like 2 rax against Zerg but you put the rax closer to your base so it's slightly more "macro" or doing a San Gate attack which is super cheesy but is technically "macro" because you have your natural. Hammers Build strikes around 6-6:15 against an established Protoss natural. Hammer takes his own natural literally 3 full minutes later than the standard Reaper FE into Bio play, whether it's 3 rax 1 with TL one with Reactor or 1/1/1 standard mine drop play that is rapidly becoming more common. This alone is a huge turn off. Protoss standard play drops a Robo Facility at 5:30. This means it finishes around 6:30, and an obs can be out by 6:50. It is well worth it for the Protoss to just delay probing up the natural for about 40 seconds before they then enter the midgame with a huge economic lead and Terran is behind on their core tech (that being stim, +1, and rax count/starport). 7:50 Bio Pressures and mine drop 1/1/1 off an FE provide a strong economic backbone along with a strong opportunity to do damage with open opportunities to run away if Protoss defends well. I can parallel this with Hammer's first push but with more econ. His "Drop Attacks" that have absolutely no instruction on how to macro up to them may be paralleled to very standard medivac drop play with bio/stim that any standard playing Terran worth his water will start doing to Protoss around 10 minutes, and with a third dropping at the same time. The final push (once again with no macro/infrastructure direction given) may be paralleled to the standard (and very very strong) SCV pull, whether it be 2 base or the 3 base with 3 ghost version. I think most would agree that SCV pull is stronger than a mech push. Even without SCV pull, playing the Ghost/Viking game in the hands of a skilled player is more reliable than doing mech play that quickly falls off against Protoss players that make the Protoss hard counter units. Most of the games where Hammer's mech push wins are games he already won because Protoss was so far behind. I've played Hammer on ladder before. Granted, I play Zerg as my main and Terran as my alternate, but every time I hit him, he used some unorthodox, and frankly, terrible strategy against me like proxy factory for 2 widow mines that killed a grand total of 4 lings before I just walked up to his base and kill him. I think he is a nice guy but I don't think his builds are very good at all. I've been playing Terran for awhile and I have very great success just sticking to the basics and playing the mechanics game with standard play. I have never used a proxy factory in TvZ lol, I think you're confused... if you don't think my builds are good that's okay, but make sure you know what you're talking about before commenting on something In reference to the TvP build being inferior to standard reaper expand, you might be right, but only against certain Protoss builds. My opening counters so much early Protoss cheese though, and allows you to properly pressure Protoss standard timings and greed; by forcing chrono'd army instead of workers, and also gives a really solid idea of what composition the Protoss army is going, all while getting a 2nd and 3rd CC behind it. Any macro lost by the later expand is gained with the addition of an in-base third. I don't know how many times I have seen Terran pro's get wrecked early going standard, where had they used my build they would have been completely fine. You also forget that you can transition bio off the opening as well, which I do sometimes. And if I'm going up against some type of 1 base play I almost always go into a 2base bio play. In terms of macro comparisons to something pro Koreans would use, the build is more similar to a wm/marine drop timing that high level players are using to pressure Protoss early; the difference being I get a much earlier third. My TvP w/l ratio is generally much higher than most Terran players in Master League, and I do it with lower APM than most players at that level. I have a GM friend who uses the build regularly, along with standard play, and he has great success with both! It doesn't need to be a players only build, the more tactics we have the better. You're right it wasn't proxy it was a gas first widow mine build that still made absolutely no sense followed by a gimmicky mass hellion attack into having no units at home and dying: http://ggtracker.com/matches/5794673Sorry about that it took awhile to find the replay.
Lol, that was months ago when I was dorkin around with new build orders; I like to try openings off the beaten path sometimes. I'm sure there's times you get wrecked too bud Anyways let's try stay on topic :D
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I don't know much about Hammer or his reputation, but I don't understand why some of you are so determined to try and insult him and his build. Just because a build is unorthodox or may even be considered "not optimal" by standard macro play does not mean that it has no place in the game.
And in the end it is up to the player to try the build and decide if it is effective/works for their style. I'm only a gold terran but I only play mech in my TvPs (something most people would tell you not to do) and yet that is my best matchup. This opener interests me because currently I only go reaper reactor expand into mine drop as my only TvP build order.
I will try this build and if I find it effective I will mix it into my repertoire, and if I find myself being constantly scouted and hardcountered or something similar then obviously I will ditch it. That is up to the player to experiment for themselves, not for some message board warriors to decide what builds other players should use and what builds they shouldn't.
Just look at a guy like Ruff, he does crazy non-standard builds a majority of the time and yet he is GM NA. Are his builds for everyone? No, but if a player wants to try them out that is up to them, and who knows, maybe some people will find his builds actually fit well with their playstyle/goals.
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Using Ruff as an example to legitimate your strat is a slippery slope, at best...
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Well I wasn't directly comparing this build to one of Ruff's builds. I was saying everyone finds different builds that work for them and everyone plays the game differently. Some people only play greedy, some people only play safe standard, some people only all-in/use heavy pressure, and some people hop around from one style to another depending on map/matchup etc.
As long as a build isn't just outright wrong like going 2 depots before rax, then who is to say whether anyone should at least try it or not? What I am saying is Hammer has laid out his build and why he finds that it works for him, so let the people who want to try it go ahead and do so. If they find that they have success with it as well, is there something wrong with that?
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"Besides the guide itself being extremely vague and providing no timings on gases, third CC, starports, when to drop infrastructure etc and simply listing when you should have X amount of stuff at Y time with no direction," Jakamakala
Less vague BO
10 Supply
12 Rax --> 2 marines then TL
13 Gas
15 Supply (wall)
17 OC
19 Factory
(constant marauder production)
(constant mine production)
(clear natural with first marauder)
22 Supply
24 Supply
29 Concussive Shell research
32 Supply
(5 :15) push
40 (5 :50) CC2 in B2
46 (6 :30) Supply
(6 :45) CC3 in B1
(hear it’s a mean around +/- 15 seconde)
(8 :00) gas 2,3 et 4
Factory 2 (then reactor) and TL on Factory 1 and restart make Supply
(9 :00) Spatioport then medivec then reactor then viking
(10 :30) Factory 3 then reactor
(11 :15) Armory and Academy
(12 :30) Blue flamme and start viking and ghost
I see all the replay of Hammer and make test.
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Sorry i forgot:
E-bay timing, it's around 7-9 minutes if the protoss B2 before 4:30 and around 5:30-6:30 if the protoss not expand
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On February 08 2015 05:22 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2015 05:02 -Hammer- wrote:On February 08 2015 05:00 SatedSC2 wrote:The difference is Terran can be on 3OC's on two bases; there is much more risk to a DT rush that fails to do damage. Comparing them is silly, apples to oranges, and not relevant whatsoever to the conversation. You heard it here first. When Terran rushes for Widow Mines to harass the Protoss, they are not taking a risk. But when Protoss rushes for Dark Templar to harass the Terran, they are taking a risk. All this despite me pointing out a build that was used in a professional team league that showed how Dark Templar can be rushed towards without there being too much risk or too much of an economic hit for the Protoss... #HammerLogic #IsThisRealLife #WhyDoIEvenBother This isn't real life and you spend way too much time whining about my build lol. You'll be okay little guy ;D There is a nice pattern here. You get shown to be wrong and so try to deflect attention by saying that I am "whining". It's the same pattern used by your supporters in this thread. Not a good mentality to have in life, and it's not going to work.
No. You just can't handle when you lose an argument. You're a bit more see-through than you think.
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Hi Hammer (or anyone who can answer this q)
Really like the build- has got me back into SC2... I also notice you only have about 60 apm most of the time. I have about 50 odd... I would love to know what your hotkey setup is as you seem able to get so much done with an apm that is often much lower than your opponent.
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EPT
