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On February 09 2015 17:53 Rich1010 wrote:
Hi Hammer (or anyone who can answer this q)
Really like the build- has got me back into SC2... I also notice you only have about 60 apm most of the time. I have about 50 odd... I would love to know what your hotkey setup is as you seem able to get so much done with an apm that is often much lower than your opponent.
Nice to hear! My APM is usually around 100, sometimes 80 in quieter/quick games :D I don't spam or anything. I will get my hotkey setup for you tomorrow (not logged on this computer). You're welcome to add me in-game too hammer.1928. Let me know if I can help with some builds! Cheers.
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On February 09 2015 04:26 -Hammer- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2015 20:33 Jakamakala wrote:On February 08 2015 19:51 Diamadoshikiller wrote:
Excuse me , can someone list seriously the criticisms made at BO removing criticisms that targets the creator of bo.
I worked in research and know that great things can be created and made by unpleasant person . But their work must be respected. I'll be more specific here. Besides the guide itself being extremely vague and providing no timings on gases, third CC, starports, when to drop infrastructure etc and simply listing when you should have X amount of stuff at Y time with no direction, I think the build is borderline "cheese into macro." Sort of like 2 rax against Zerg but you put the rax closer to your base so it's slightly more "macro" or doing a San Gate attack which is super cheesy but is technically "macro" because you have your natural. Hammers Build strikes around 6-6:15 against an established Protoss natural. Hammer takes his own natural literally 3 full minutes later than the standard Reaper FE into Bio play, whether it's 3 rax 1 with TL one with Reactor or 1/1/1 standard mine drop play that is rapidly becoming more common. This alone is a huge turn off. Protoss standard play drops a Robo Facility at 5:30. This means it finishes around 6:30, and an obs can be out by 6:50. It is well worth it for the Protoss to just delay probing up the natural for about 40 seconds before they then enter the midgame with a huge economic lead and Terran is behind on their core tech (that being stim, +1, and rax count/starport). 7:50 Bio Pressures and mine drop 1/1/1 off an FE provide a strong economic backbone along with a strong opportunity to do damage with open opportunities to run away if Protoss defends well. I can parallel this with Hammer's first push but with more econ. His "Drop Attacks" that have absolutely no instruction on how to macro up to them may be paralleled to very standard medivac drop play with bio/stim that any standard playing Terran worth his water will start doing to Protoss around 10 minutes, and with a third dropping at the same time. The final push (once again with no macro/infrastructure direction given) may be paralleled to the standard (and very very strong) SCV pull, whether it be 2 base or the 3 base with 3 ghost version. I think most would agree that SCV pull is stronger than a mech push. Even without SCV pull, playing the Ghost/Viking game in the hands of a skilled player is more reliable than doing mech play that quickly falls off against Protoss players that make the Protoss hard counter units. Most of the games where Hammer's mech push wins are games he already won because Protoss was so far behind. I've played Hammer on ladder before. Granted, I play Zerg as my main and Terran as my alternate, but every time I hit him, he used some unorthodox, and frankly, terrible strategy against me like proxy factory for 2 widow mines that killed a grand total of 4 lings before I just walked up to his base and kill him. I think he is a nice guy but I don't think his builds are very good at all. I've been playing Terran for awhile and I have very great success just sticking to the basics and playing the mechanics game with standard play. I have never used a proxy factory in TvZ lol, I think you're confused... if you don't think my builds are good that's okay, but make sure you know what you're talking about before commenting on something  In reference to the TvP build being inferior to standard reaper expand, you might be right, but only against certain Protoss builds. My opening counters so much early Protoss cheese though, and allows you to properly pressure Protoss standard timings and greed; by forcing chrono'd army instead of workers, and also gives a really solid idea of what composition the Protoss army is going, all while getting a 2nd and 3rd CC behind it. Any macro lost by the later expand is gained with the addition of an in-base third. I don't know how many times I have seen Terran pro's get wrecked early going standard, where had they used my build they would have been completely fine. You also forget that you can transition bio off the opening as well, which I do sometimes. And if I'm going up against some type of 1 base play I almost always go into a 2base bio play. In terms of macro comparisons to something pro Koreans would use, the build is more similar to a wm/marine drop timing that high level players are using to pressure Protoss early; the difference being I get a much earlier third. My TvP w/l ratio is generally much higher than most Terran players in Master League, and I do it with lower APM than most players at that level. I have a GM friend who uses the build regularly, along with standard play, and he has great success with both! It doesn't need to be a players only build, the more tactics we have the better.
I agree with the 3rd CC timing thing. It is easy to compare an aggressive build to a standard play build and say it's non viable because of the natural timing.
But the strength of aggressive build sometimes is to allow you to figure out your opponent and be safe against early allin. Thus it allows you to take risk and get faster 3rd CC. When using the build I indeed a lot of time build greedy 3rd CC (into standard bio) because protoss is on the defensive and basically don't know what to do. his obs is busy denying mine drop at home and thus scout the 3rd CC way to late.
I will post a screen of a scv production curve as it illustrates perfectly the situation. Basically even if your push has done little dommage you recover in scv prod with your 3rd CC at 11-12ish min. With terrans mules the situation recovers even quicker than the scv prod suggest. THis is the rule I find applicable for every type of aggressive terran play.
The key though is to impose constant threat. If you loose horribly your aggressive troups without any dmg (first push + mine drops) you are dead as the Protoss can either outexpand you because he feels safe to do so or seize the opportunity to reverse allin you.
The strength of this is also WM as they scares the hell out of protoss when they have to decide to allin or not.
If I had to play protoss vs this I would probably go greedy 3rd nexus very fast because you can identify that this kind of aggression lacks of strong midgame follow up (the 2 medivac push) .
Basically facing build like this demand very good game knowledge from the enemy to figure out the right allin or greedy response to show to Hammer build. Maybe it doesn't work in pro level because their game knowledge and adaptibilty is way too high, but in ladder people are very bad at adapting their BO and thinking.
Also the more I play it the more I think marine first is mandatory to deny scouting.
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« I think the build is borderline "cheese into macro." Sort of like 2 rax against Zerg but you put the rax closer to your base so it's slightly more "macro" or doing a San Gate attack which is super cheesy but is technically "macro" because you have your natural » Jakamakala
The question here it’s : Hammer build it’s a cheese, an all-in or macro BO ?
« Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies in large parts on lack of information and/or psychological impact on the opponent. Cheese build orders typically revolve around an early attack that, if undetected, is more difficult to defend than execute. Players will not always cheese for an outright win. In certain scenarios, cheese can be used to either force a low-econ game or to gain an early advantage. The unbalanced nature of cheese usually serve to make decision making on the defending side more fatal… A common form in practice is to neglect a long term viable economy to be able to produce a couple of extra units for attack… Cheese is usually characterized by its strategic fragility. The cheesing player is making a wager that the defending player will have some sort of oversight in his build ». Liquipedia
The Opening of Hammer seem like a cheese but it’s not a cheese (Canada dry). Why ?
Because you don’t try to neglect economy to produce extra units for attack. If you calculate the production of Hammer to create constant maraudeur and mine and supply it’s around 400 mineral/min. The 1 rax Fe production turn around 300 mineral/min and start produce later. In reality Hammer try to start is game with maraudeur/mine and not just with marine but not try to have a maximun of maraudeur/mine. Because he want expand quickly after. In reality it’s the same with 1 rax Fe we need to have reaper, expand and quickly have a lot of marines to defend. The question is why hammer not try to have before expand then after Marauder/mine. Because Hammer have a goal, a weak timing when protoss expand (we will see later).
The other point it’s not a chesse it’s because it’s not a risky strategy. The protoss have no possibility to kill you quickly if he scout you. I think a lot of people disagree here.
It’s not risky because :
1/ with a good contrôl of your first marine it’s impossible to protoss to really know what happen if he not know you (like ladder).
2/ The timing push at 6 minutes induce a delay of the real counter of Mine/Maraudeur (obs/colosse). At this timing the protoss just neutralize but not win something if he do the good counter (obs/imo and gate way unit). Some people imagine they can counter attack but it’s not really possible. In reality Hammer avoid during the push the time mining of the B2 to 6-8 minutes, your economy it’s on one base but you put 400 mineral in an expand. When you produce obs/imo and gate way at this timing on 1 base the colossus will come very late.
Some people imagine oracle it’s a counter of mines. Hammer answer : terran have to learn kill air unit with mines. If you protect your SCV by turret or mines and use you mines like turret during the battle (marauder always next to a active mine) oracle have no or few opportunity to do damage.
Conclusion : The Opening of Hammer is not a cheese or an all-in but a macro BO starting with a pressure. This pressure have to force the Protoss player quickly build the robot and quickly produce gate units just after expand without the benefit of the economy of the B2. All these induce a weak mid-game of protoss player. At 12 minutes they will have a delay in technology or a very low quantity of army. Nevertheless it is still necessary to be able to master the push.
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I forgot:
1 mine (75 mineral/25 gas) one shoot a oracle without have damage.
6 marines (600 mineral) kill a oracle but you lost 2 marines.
Humm i like the first condition.
ok ok bad argument...
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An allin is a build that have no follow up. If it fails you loose, if it succeed you win. That's why both proxy 2 rax in TvZ and "blink-allin" were moved to all-in to early pressure build after pro showed us we can perfectly transition from the two. Hammer build-> not a allin.
I don't agree totally with you when you call Hammer build not a cheese. For me if it is scouted too early it looses too much value vs a decent protoss. It's indeed a cheese that apply early pressure into macro transition. For me the definition of liquipedia apply perfectly at this build.
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On February 09 2015 21:36 Diamadoshikiller wrote:
« I think the build is borderline "cheese into macro." Sort of like 2 rax against Zerg but you put the rax closer to your base so it's slightly more "macro" or doing a San Gate attack which is super cheesy but is technically "macro" because you have your natural » Jakamakala
The question here it’s : Hammer build it’s a cheese, an all-in or macro BO ?
« Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies in large parts on lack of information and/or psychological impact on the opponent. Cheese build orders typically revolve around an early attack that, if undetected, is more difficult to defend than execute. Players will not always cheese for an outright win. In certain scenarios, cheese can be used to either force a low-econ game or to gain an early advantage. The unbalanced nature of cheese usually serve to make decision making on the defending side more fatal… A common form in practice is to neglect a long term viable economy to be able to produce a couple of extra units for attack… Cheese is usually characterized by its strategic fragility. The cheesing player is making a wager that the defending player will have some sort of oversight in his build ». Liquipedia
The Opening of Hammer seem like a cheese but it’s not a cheese (Canada dry). Why ?
Because you don’t try to neglect economy to produce extra units for attack. If you calculate the production of Hammer to create constant maraudeur and mine and supply it’s around 400 mineral/min. The 1 rax Fe production turn around 300 mineral/min and start produce later. In reality Hammer try to start is game with maraudeur/mine and not just with marine but not try to have a maximun of maraudeur/mine. Because he want expand quickly after. In reality it’s the same with 1 rax Fe we need to have reaper, expand and quickly have a lot of marines to defend. The question is why hammer not try to have before expand then after Marauder/mine. Because Hammer have a goal, a weak timing when protoss expand (we will see later).
The other point it’s not a chesse it’s because it’s not a risky strategy. The protoss have no possibility to kill you quickly if he scout you. I think a lot of people disagree here.
It’s not risky because :
1/ with a good contrôl of your first marine it’s impossible to protoss to really know what happen if he not know you (like ladder).
2/ The timing push at 6 minutes induce a delay of the real counter of Mine/Maraudeur (obs/colosse). At this timing the protoss just neutralize but not win something if he do the good counter (obs/imo and gate way unit). Some people imagine they can counter attack but it’s not really possible. In reality Hammer avoid during the push the time mining of the B2 to 6-8 minutes, your economy it’s on one base but you put 400 mineral in an expand. When you produce obs/imo and gate way at this timing on 1 base the colossus will come very late.
Some people imagine oracle it’s a counter of mines. Hammer answer : terran have to learn kill air unit with mines. If you protect your SCV by turret or mines and use you mines like turret during the battle (marauder always next to a active mine) oracle have no or few opportunity to do damage.
Conclusion : The Opening of Hammer is not a cheese or an all-in but a macro BO starting with a pressure. This pressure have to force the Protoss player quickly build the robot and quickly produce gate units just after expand without the benefit of the economy of the B2. All these induce a weak mid-game of protoss player. At 12 minutes they will have a delay in technology or a very low quantity of army. Nevertheless it is still necessary to be able to master the push.
If it is not cheese you shouldn't have to delay your timing to deny the scout. 
So why are we bothering with step 1?
Anyways, I don't think anyone is denying it is a good build against the current standard (mindless, autopilot) Protoss play, but it has weaknesses.
You can just go to Hammers match history in game and see what builds he loses to and what builds he wins versus.
It seems quite clear that if the Protoss goes the standard route of Twilight play, Stargate or does an all in, they end up in trouble.
The tosses that have added an early forge or done 1 Gate->Robo seems to do alright.
Some of them even win at minute 10-14.
So by just looking at the match history of Hammer himself, it seems a bit off to claim it has no risks and there is nothing Protoss can do to kill you.
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Tu as raison de ne pas être totalement d’accord avec moi. J'ai longtemps cru que c’était un cheese mais un cheese est un bo risqué qui si scouté à temps amene a la défaite (c'est la deuxième partie de la définition du cheese de liquipedia: "Cheese is usually characterized by its strategic fragility") . A partir du moment ou l'oracle n'est pas un contre correct (si on l'admet...). Le maraudeur/mine au timing proposé par Hammer n'a pas à ma connaissance de fragilité durant l'early game. Certain dirons qu'il induit un retard économique mais si le push empêche le protoss de miner correctement (je pense que c'est la découverte de hammer), ce retard n'existe pas voir le terran à plus d’économie que le protoss.
En gros si Hammer à raison ce BO peut être un standard. Le problème c'est que ça fait un peu passer les progamers pour des cons. J'ai souvent vu en laboratoire de très bonne idée proposé par des étudiants pas accepté par les chercheurs, certain ce moquant de leur idée. Un jour un brillant chercheur reconnu par la communauté dit la même idée et tout le monde cris au génie... La question est l'opening de Hammer est-il vraiment risqué ou effectivement les protoss n'ont pas a ce timing une réponse efficace surtout quand la micro et le multitasking du terran est importante.
I will translate after... sorry.
User was warned for this post
Translation:
You're right not to be totally agreed with me. I have long believed that it was a cheese but cheese is a risk BO, If you scout it in time you will loose (the second part of the definition of cheese liquipedia:"Cheese is usually characterized by its strategic fragility"). If we admit oracle it's not a counter of marauder/mine, at the timming proposed by hammer hasn't with my knowlege fragility. Some say the Bo induce a economic backwardeness but if the first push work the terran equilibrate the situation or is in better condition.
Basically if Hammer are right his BO can be a standard . The problem is that it's a little pass progamers for idiots . I have often seen in laboratory great idea proposed by students not accepted by researchers, some jocking about their idea. One day, a brilliant researcher recognized by the community said the same idea and everyone said it's a genius ... The question is the opening of Hammer is it really safe and effective and Protoss do not have at this timing has an effective response especially when micro and multitasking of terran is important.
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"If it is not cheese you shouldn't have to delay your timing to deny the scout." JulDraGoN
you not delay you timing to deny scout. the push always heat at 6 minutes to the protoss player. The 2 marines it's just better to kill MSC. Before with the first version to kill MSC you need 2 mines.
The fact that this marines deny a the scout it's a icing on the cake.
"The tosses that have added an early forge or done 1 Gate->Robo seems to do alright."
For early forge don't know. For 1 Gate->Robo i agree but in reality that depend of the capacity of Hammer delay economie or tech of protoss player and to play mecha a good mecha. My experience show me between 10-14 minutes if you produce enought tank and helion and maraudeur and 2 bunker you can defend 2 base protoss all-in.
For me the real solution it's a protoss play 1 Gate->Robo with 3 gate and take very fast after third nexus and go to air (voidray). 15 minutes if you have 6 or 8 voidray and 2 immo and a lot of zealot charge i think protoss will win because i see if Hammer go his standart BO he have few viking and few mine at this timing. But in reality Hammer scout your base with drop to know!!!!
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On February 09 2015 22:54 Diamadoshikiller wrote:
"If it is not cheese you shouldn't have to delay your timing to deny the scout." JulDraGoN
you not delay you timing to deny scout. the push always heat at 6 minutes to the protoss player. The 2 marines it's just better to kill MSC. Before with the first version to kill MSC you need 2 mines.
The fact that this marines deny a the scout it's a icing on the cake.
"The tosses that have added an early forge or done 1 Gate->Robo seems to do alright."
For early forge don't know. For 1 Gate->Robo i agree but in reality that depend of the capacity of Hammer delay economie or tech of protoss player and to play mecha a good mecha. My experience show me between 10-14 minutes if you produce enought tank and helion and maraudeur and 2 bunker you can defend 2 base protoss all-in.
For me the real solution it's a protoss play 1 Gate->Robo with 3 gate and take very fast after third nexus and go to air (voidray). 15 minutes if you have 6 or 8 voidray and 2 immo and a lot of zealot charge i think protoss will win because i see if Hammer go his standart BO he have few viking and few mine at this timing. But in reality Hammer scout your base with drop to know!!!!
You might be right, I don't know.
I didn't take my examples from theory crafting, I took them directly from the last 3-4 days of Hammers match history.
I have honestly never played against this style. The last time I played against something similar was in early WoL (Marauder+Conc push).
Also lost to Strelok when he proxy marauder+conc shelled me on Daybreak in late WoL, but that is about the few times I've come across it.
Marauder + conc shells isn't a new and revolutionary thing that no one has thought of.
The only difference I can tell from that time is that now you add a mine. But I don't see how it changes the proper response that made it go away in the first place.
Then it turns into a mine drop, but you can do it faster without the marauder opening.
The follow up is mech. Fine. Mech timings are annoying to deal with, I agree on that.
But does it really matter which opening you choose before doing a mech timing all in?
It is a really cute build for sure.
But I don't get why this specific mix-match of old and new styles combined into a build is such a big deal for so many people.
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« I have honestly never played against this style. The last time I played against something similar was in early WoL (Marauder+Conc push).
Also lost to Strelok when he proxy marauder+conc shelled me on Daybreak in late WoL, but that is about the few times I've come across it.
Marauder + conc shells isn't a new and revolutionary thing that no one has thought of.
The only difference I can tell from that time is that now you add a mine. But I don't see how it changes the proper response that made it go away in the first place. » JulDraGoN
That why i say play before talk !!!! How can you have a real oppinion without test. The marauder opening of WOL (Marauder+Conc push). We are not in WOL, it’s HOTS, we have mine and mine change a LOT OF THINGS. At the timing Hammer use the mine with 2 or 3 marauder it’s more effective than marine.
Force robotique and obs early before make immortal and colosse
1 shoot unit when the protoss a have few unit
Kill air unit (good support for maraudeur)
Destroy shield of immortal, it’s a little EMP lllloooollll(good support for maraudeur)
Patch : Widow Mine
Splash radius is now 1.75. There are no longer 50% or 25% damage zones.
Splash damage is now 40 (+40 Shields) for the full 1.75 splash radius. (80 for Protoss unit)
(When you have 3 or 4 mine with 5 or 6 maraudeur…. And protoss have 1 immo and 5 gate way unit whitout overcharge a let you imagine what will happen. )
AOE a pack of zealot (good support for maraudeur)
Perhaps i forgot something…
« Then it turns into a mine drop, but you can do it faster without the marauder » JulDraGoN
The push with marauder is more important then the drop of mine. The drop it’s just a way to harass and not the main goal of the build. The push of Hammer it’s more powerfull then a drop of one or 2 mine. And you can’t have a drop of mines in the base of protoss before 6 :40 and you are all-in i think or not safe to stalker poke.
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On February 09 2015 18:01 -Hammer- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 17:53 Rich1010 wrote:
Hi Hammer (or anyone who can answer this q)
Really like the build- has got me back into SC2... I also notice you only have about 60 apm most of the time. I have about 50 odd... I would love to know what your hotkey setup is as you seem able to get so much done with an apm that is often much lower than your opponent.
Nice to hear! My APM is usually around 100, sometimes 80 in quieter/quick games :D I don't spam or anything. I will get my hotkey setup for you tomorrow (not logged on this computer). You're welcome to add me in-game too hammer.1928. Let me know if I can help with some builds! Cheers.
Thanks Hammer. Nope- I cannot add you as I play on the European server.
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« Hammers Build strikes around 6-6:15 against an established Protoss natural. Hammer takes his own natural literally 3 full minutes later than the standard Reaper FE into Bio play, whether it's 3 rax 1 with TL one with Reactor or 1/1/1 standard mine drop play that is rapidly becoming more common. This alone is a huge turn off.
Protoss standard play drops a Robo Facility at 5:30. This means it finishes around 6:30, and an obs can be out by 6:50. It is well worth it for the Protoss to just delay probing up the natural for about 40 seconds before they then enter the midgame with a huge economic lead and Terran is behind on their core tech (that being stim, +1, and rax count/starport).
7:50 Bio Pressures and mine drop 1/1/1 off an FE provide a strong economic backbone along with a strong opportunity to do damage with open opportunities to run away if Protoss defends well. I can parallel this with Hammer's first push but with more econ. »
JulDraGoN
In this part I think the problem is that the majority of the Protoss players (gold to master) always play " Standart " or " Safe" .
The most safes BO is not the most macro BO but which from the start can counter a large panel of early aggression without a big adaptation after a scout.
MSC on HOTS made to believe that if the protoss has at 4min10 the MSC than 2 stalkers at 5 minutes they are " safe". This the BO against which the Terran play the most and is described as indestructible by Imbabuild :
http://imbabuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvt/pvt-mcs-2-stalker-mothership-core-opener/
But there is a detail i had not read :
« This PvT opener opens with 2 Stalkers and a Mothership Core to take advantage of the weakness of early game Marines when they cannot hide inside a bunker. »
In reality the Protoss think Terran do many marines in the early game.
But why they think that ?
Because they always do it.
Why Terran do many marines in the early game?
Because they always do 1 rax Fe.
Why Terran are obliged to do many marines when they do 1 rax Fe ?
Because if i expand between 3 :30 et 4 :00, to survive the only unit we can do it’s marine. Moreover Protoss have 2 crazy air unit, MSC and oracle at the beginning of the game.
Ok why terran expand so fast in TvP ?
Because Terran all-in can’t counter 3 gate /robot into expand or it’s difficult to win versus 1gate expand into robo 3 gate with the MSC.
But dad Diamadoshi you said before play safe it’s do MSC +2 stalker. Now you say it’s more safe to play with 3gate and a robo…
The young Diamadoshi learn to the old Diamadoshi the HOTS standart of protoss it’s safe versus 1 rax Fe.
I think now after the standart :
http://imbabuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvt/pvt-mcs-2-stalker-mothership-core-opener/
Each Protoss chose a path that pleases him and can counter the push of 1 rax reaper Fe. And solutions abound. I list here those I meet most often :
1/ The best of the best
PatinG’s PvT : The Big Boy Build
2/ Drop my B1, i will all-in you
PvT alicia’s 12/12 Colossus All-in
3/ My blink will crush your 1 rax Fe before you will have stim and Marauder
Two base blink all-in
4/ Terror in the sky
Proxy oracle into all-in or expand…
5/Where is the turret in 1 rax Fe ??? Ok release the DT.
PrayingToinCa
Versus all this BO the Hammer work because no robot and 3 gates before around 6:30.
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"His "Drop Attacks" that have absolutely no instruction on how to macro up to them may be paralleled to very standard medivac drop play with bio/stim that any standard playing Terran worth his water will start doing to Protoss around 10 minutes, and with a third dropping at the same time." Jakamakala
You compare thinks can't be compare.
Drop in 1 rax Fe it's the major point of the build. If you not drop with 1 rax Fe you die (the protoss have to think minimun you will drop him even if you will not do it). Why? because BIO can't win frontal attack versus AOE of protoss army. You have to do multifront attack. The protoss army it's slow and he have to break is army. When he do that the Terran army it's better during the mid-game.
The drop in Hammer is less important. When i play i don't do it. I focus more on the first push and the last push. For me this drop it's an opportunity to slow a greedy protoss (harrass opportunity with no obligation) and to scout the B1 or B3 of protoss.
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"The final push (once again with no macro/infrastructure direction given) may be paralleled to the standard (and very very strong) SCV pull, whether it be 2 base or the 3 base with 3 ghost version. I think most would agree that SCV pull is stronger than a mech push.
Even without SCV pull, playing the Ghost/Viking game in the hands of a skilled player is more reliable than doing mech play that quickly falls off against Protoss players that make the Protoss hard counter units. Most of the games where Hammer's mech push wins are games he already won because Protoss was so far behind."Jakamakala
At the END you say the more important think:
"Hammer's mech push wins are games he already won because Protoss was so far behind"
Yes because of the opener!!! Even hammer say this opener have to do damage! If he not do damage it's really hard for terran to win. And hammer say what type of dammage:
"With good control you should be able to do significant damage. If you don't, you have still done damage in the sense that Protoss is producing units when they would prefer to be focusing on worker chrono, and ramping up their economy."
Yes SCV pull with MMM+ mass viking and 2 ghost it's really powerfull but it's an ALL-IN. If you failed or the protoss counter with the 2 AOE (good mixe of colosse and HT and few centry) you LOOSE. TCHU TCHU it's not actually a good solution. Protoss learn.
The Hammer mech it's not an all-in.
Finaly you talk about the Ghost/Viking. This composition it's more hard to control than the mecha of hammer! Even if you survived to the protoss and have this composition it's will be very hard to used it for win. I talk a lot about that in the french forum of SC2. The big probleme it's the capacity of the terran to survive during all the game without have damage big damge and after use that composition versus a very late game protoss.
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Jakamakala i hope my answer help you to more understand why this build it's really good for Terran player between (gold to diamond). I stop play 2 days and i write to much...
What is very interesting it's you can make a 1 rax Fe with a reaper with this opening just after the rax finish. If you play a second time with the same player i think you can just make him crazy.
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I forgot :
you make 2 marine and after a reactor on the rax.
The first two units will be a reaper and a marine.
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Hey guys I have very good result with the build now i have 78% of win rate.
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On February 17 2015 03:32 Diamadoshikiller wrote:
Hey guys I have very good result with the build now i have 78% of win rate.
That's solid. Are you using the build they way I have it in the guide?
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I have never read over this Guide yet but I am interested as I am going to be Switching to Protoss shortly. I wanted to ask if you thought that reading this Guide would be a good idea as a way to soak up information in a hope to counter this sort of thing? I have trouble vs this and Odd forms of Mech as Protoss from time to time.
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Now i have 81% in TvP and i’m in top platine, for this result i modified a little the build at 6 minutes and add a scout at 13 SCV. I have to be better in TvT (30%) and TvZ (40%) to be diamond. I make around 15 test match on this build with top diamonds players that know the build.
The conclusion is clear, Protoss can counter the "hammer". The « Hammer » plays on Human faults of your opponent.
1 / Protoss dont scouts before observer and some time never.
2 / The Protoss do not know adapting versus several BO because terran just do one.
3 / A Protoss A clik / macro and storm and produce DT. They don’t micro their unity. Storm it’s not hard to do versus gold and platine player.
4 / The Protoss are too greedy and they think untouchable during the first 8 minutes of the game.
5 / The Protoss are persuaded They can all-in without being punished.
In fact Hammer evaluates the actual level of Protoss.
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EPT
