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As a protoss player, opening stargate I went ahead and tested out how I would respond:
Probe scout goes in, sees tech labbed rax and a factory going up. Probe goes back in or stays in to see a marauder come out. Okay, I see what's up. another gate + a forge go down in case of a widow mine drop. Cutting probes around 20'ish. Cannon goes down at my main mineral line just in case.
You show up at 6:16 with 3 marauders and 2 mines at the protoss natural. The oracle is leaving my base a few seconds before this. I bring it back to my base for the widow mines. Overcharge goes down and a front pylon if it isnt already there. Chrono out voidray and then 2 cannons at front. Couple zealots to help tank and with a second voidray coming and another overcharge 50 energy'ish away I just dont see how you're going to get anything done.
Maybe some better toss players than me have an even more optimal way of dealing with this but me personally, this is what I did.
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On March 15 2014 04:27 dUTtrOACh wrote:
vs Proxy Oracle, do you just die, or is it a 50-50, because of Widow-Mines? I'm mostly curious about the 20% of losses you've experienced with this build. What kills you most? Protoss that do stalker timings? Skytoss builds? What about the old 3-gate void-ray? Or is is more a matter of if the Protoss plays well, they win? I could picture immortal archon just destroying this outright in an even econ scenario.
Dependence on WM for anti-air also seems like it would be weak against DTs, or warp-prism harass. Do you play against that much?
Good questions. I have no problems against proxy oracle. The key is pulling the workers off the line asap, waypointing them somewhere and back to the minerals, and putting a widow mine in the path. Most Protoss will lose the Oracle to this. If not, get the mine in your mineral line, and proceed to damage Protoss at their base as much as possible. Most one base plays by Protoss do not do well as the initial push pressures at a weak timing for them - and provides a lot of information for what Protoss is doing. DT play can be tough, but there is a scan available around 6:30, and usually I'm already working on missile turrets, if there is no expansion/late expansion. Well executed proxy gateways can be hard (that's why I build to have good vision in my base). Try the build, you won't be disappointed, If you need help with it, feel free to add me online. Cheers.
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On March 15 2014 04:51 shivver wrote:
As a protoss player, opening stargate I went ahead and tested out how I would respond:
Probe scout goes in, sees tech labbed rax and a factory going up. Probe goes back in or stays in to see a marauder come out. Okay, I see what's up. another gate + a forge go down in case of a widow mine drop. Cutting probes around 20'ish. Cannon goes down at my main mineral line just in case.
You show up at 6:16 with 3 marauders and 2 mines at the protoss natural. The oracle is leaving my base a few seconds before this. I bring it back to my base for the widow mines. Overcharge goes down and a front pylon if it isnt already there. Chrono out voidray and then 2 cannons at front. Couple zealots to help tank and with a second voidray coming and another overcharge 50 energy'ish away I just dont see how you're going to get anything done.
Maybe some better toss players than me have an even more optimal way of dealing with this but me personally, this is what I did.
After your oracle does little or no damage, and I return to your natural after 60 seconds (photon overcharge finished), voidrays don't do well against 6-7 widow mines, and zealots not so well against marauders kiting with concussive shells. Also you're using chrono on army units, not economy, and cutting workers - just what I wanted :D
The opening can definitely be held, but not without slowing down Protoss economy, and forcing some form of detection.
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On March 15 2014 04:59 -Hammer- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 04:51 shivver wrote:
As a protoss player, opening stargate I went ahead and tested out how I would respond:
Probe scout goes in, sees tech labbed rax and a factory going up. Probe goes back in or stays in to see a marauder come out. Okay, I see what's up. another gate + a forge go down in case of a widow mine drop. Cutting probes around 20'ish. Cannon goes down at my main mineral line just in case.
You show up at 6:16 with 3 marauders and 2 mines at the protoss natural. The oracle is leaving my base a few seconds before this. I bring it back to my base for the widow mines. Overcharge goes down and a front pylon if it isnt already there. Chrono out voidray and then 2 cannons at front. Couple zealots to help tank and with a second voidray coming and another overcharge 50 energy'ish away I just dont see how you're going to get anything done.
Maybe some better toss players than me have an even more optimal way of dealing with this but me personally, this is what I did. After your oracle does little or no damage, and I return to your natural after 60 seconds (photon overcharge finished), voidrays don't do well against 6-7 widow mines, and zealots not so well against marauders kiting with concussive shells. Also you're using chrono on army units, not economy, and cutting workers - just what I wanted :D The opening can definitely be held, but not without slowing down Protoss economy, and forcing some form of detection.
The oracle is coming back for detection.. like I said.
It takes 40 seconds to build a mine. So you back off for 50 seconds, that gives you 2 extra mines, the one you had leaving the factory as you got to the natural (3) where you back off, and the one that just finished and has 10 seconds to walk across the map if I did the math right. 7? Come on..
Besides, it's not like I'm going to attack you with the voids. I'm just going to sit on top of my nexus/cannons and it's you that has to come in.
I went into unit tester and gave you 6 marauders and 6 mines vs 2 voids 2 cannons and 4 zlots. What are you going to do in this situation? Minus the msc, I didn't even include it or another warp in you lose this battle every single time. Are you going to charge into the cannons? It won't work because the mines can be target fired before they get close to the voids. Thinking about targeting the cannons with your marauders to kill the detection? I have an oracle too that I didn't include. You have to do damage it's not like you can just sit back so, again - what are you going to do :D
And I mean, if you're going to do this in a bo5, what's going to stop someone from opening robo every single game knowing this is coming? Even better, what's going to stop you from losing to a 3 gate immortal bust every single game?
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On March 15 2014 05:18 shivver wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 04:59 -Hammer- wrote:On March 15 2014 04:51 shivver wrote:
As a protoss player, opening stargate I went ahead and tested out how I would respond:
Probe scout goes in, sees tech labbed rax and a factory going up. Probe goes back in or stays in to see a marauder come out. Okay, I see what's up. another gate + a forge go down in case of a widow mine drop. Cutting probes around 20'ish. Cannon goes down at my main mineral line just in case.
You show up at 6:16 with 3 marauders and 2 mines at the protoss natural. The oracle is leaving my base a few seconds before this. I bring it back to my base for the widow mines. Overcharge goes down and a front pylon if it isnt already there. Chrono out voidray and then 2 cannons at front. Couple zealots to help tank and with a second voidray coming and another overcharge 50 energy'ish away I just dont see how you're going to get anything done.
Maybe some better toss players than me have an even more optimal way of dealing with this but me personally, this is what I did. After your oracle does little or no damage, and I return to your natural after 60 seconds (photon overcharge finished), voidrays don't do well against 6-7 widow mines, and zealots not so well against marauders kiting with concussive shells. Also you're using chrono on army units, not economy, and cutting workers - just what I wanted :D The opening can definitely be held, but not without slowing down Protoss economy, and forcing some form of detection. The oracle is coming back for detection.. like I said. It takes 40 seconds to build a mine. So you back off for 50 seconds, that gives you 2 extra mines, the one you had leaving the factory as you got to the natural (3) where you back off, and the one that just finished and has 10 seconds to walk across the map if I did the math right. 7? Come on.. Besides, it's not like I'm going to attack you with the voids. I'm just going to sit on top of my nexus/cannons and it's you that has to come in. I went into unit tester and gave you 6 marauders and 6 mines vs 2 voids 2 cannons and 4 zlots. What are you going to do in this situation? Minus the msc, I didn't even include it or another warp in you lose this battle every single time. Are you going to charge into the cannons? It won't work because the mines can be target fired before they get close to the voids. Thinking about targeting the cannons with your marauders to kill the detection? I have an oracle too that I didn't include. You have to do damage it's not like you can just sit back so, again - what are you going to do :D And I mean, if you're going to do this in a bo5, what's going to stop someone from opening robo every single game knowing this is coming? Even better, what's going to stop you from losing to a 3 gate immortal bust every single game?
I hear what you're saying about your defense, it sounds solid. You're still cutting workers, chroning army, and reducing early economy to hold though. The same goes for a robo opening. Against 3gate robo play, the push does significant damage, especially since this build usually typically has no detection early on.
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Well I think now its time for a 1v1 vs Shivver and show us reps 
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Do you have any replays of you using this build to defend against the 10gate/10gas Zealot/MSC/Stalker ~5min push?
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On March 15 2014 05:35 Pirfiktshon wrote:Well I think now its time for a 1v1 vs Shivver and show us reps
Haha he seems like a nice guy, I'm down. Really just looking at tightening up the build, and getting constructive input where applicable
On March 15 2014 05:40 BuddhaMonk wrote:
Do you have any replays of you using this build to defend against the 10gate/10gas Zealot/MSC/Stalker ~5min push?
I do have some, will have to go through some replays. This build definitely does well against it.
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On March 15 2014 04:51 -Hammer- wrote:Good questions. I have no problems against proxy oracle. The key is pulling the workers off the line asap, waypointing them somewhere and back to the minerals, and putting a widow mine in the path. Most Protoss will lose the Oracle to this. If not, get the mine in your mineral line, and proceed to damage Protoss at their base as much as possible. Most one base plays by Protoss do not do well as the initial push pressures at a weak timing for them - and provides a lot of information for what Protoss is doing. DT play can be tough, but there is a scan available around 6:30, and usually I'm already working on missile turrets, if there is no expansion/late expansion. Well executed proxy gateways can be hard (that's why I build to have good vision in my base). Try the build, you won't be disappointed, If you need help with it, feel free to add me online. Cheers.
Thanks for the reply. I usually play more economical bio-viking styles, or just proxy 3 rax (usually a terrible decision). It's been a while since I've tried meching in this M/U, or even middle-ground bio-mech like this. I'll have to try this when I get a good couple of hours to really iron it out. The first few games will probably just reek of fail, lol.
+ Show Spoiler +
From what I know of PvT this build is dangerous against unscouted stargate, and my theory is it just dies to 3gate stargate if Protoss doesn't make oracles. Later DT timings like warp-drop DT could also be a problem, but I'll definitely save this one as an aggro option, since I don't have many non-eco openers anymore. I could be horribly wrong on my theories. Compositions are one thing, but Protoss timings can be quite fragile, and Protoss can be pretty useless without detection.
Thanks for the guide.
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i bet this loses to a regular zealot stalker msc scouting poke pretty hard
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On March 15 2014 07:18 dUTtrOACh wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I usually play more economical bio-viking styles, or just proxy 3 rax (usually a terrible decision). It's been a while since I've tried meching in this M/U, or even middle-ground bio-mech like this. I'll have to try this when I get a good couple of hours to really iron it out. The first few games will probably just reek of fail, lol.
Good luck brotha!
On March 15 2014 07:36 Fus wrote:
i bet this loses to a regular zealot stalker msc scouting poke pretty hard
Do you mean proxy gate, or across map?
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On March 15 2014 00:04 hellokitty[hk] wrote:
What if protoss just goes standard blink stalker colossus (and doesn't sack units like in some of the replays)?
This.
I think with proper scouting and correct reactions this won't be a be all end all build against protoss. Sure I'd probably lose to it being greedy one game but after watching the replay I don't think it would work so good a second time. Very gimmicky IMO.
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I just wanted to say that I'm the player you played on yeonsu. I lost because I went for 2 base blink and any type of widow mine drop or banshee is an auto loss so you pretty much blind countered me and it was hard to recover. I usually don't do coin flips but I was looking up build orders for high grandmasters on kr sever so I did it. As for what i think of the build, I do think its strong but not against 3 gate robot builds. It's looks good on paper vs star gate and robot forge builds but vs well executed 3 gate robot I fell it would crush this.
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Do you mean proxy gate, or across map?
Both, widow mines wont be able to deal with any of the units. You can make a wall then the toss can't get in but will start killing it from the lowground. Toss will scout the factory with msc and make a robo after the expand and more units from 1 gate. Terran wont be able to move across map if the toss stays at his ramp, you need a mine to prevent shooting down the wall and also a mine to prevent msc from harassing the mineral line. You also need enough maradur to deal with msc zealot and 1-2 stalkers before you can push out.
Protoss will have nexus cannon, observers and a big economic advantage when the attack hits.
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On March 15 2014 15:33 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
I just wanted to say that I'm the player you played on yeonsu. I lost because I went for 2 base blink and any type of widow mine drop or banshee is an auto loss so you pretty much blind countered me and it was hard to recover. I usually don't do coin flips but I was looking up build orders for high grandmasters on kr sever so I did it. As for what i think of the build, I do think its strong but not against 3 gate robot builds. It's looks good on paper vs star gate and robot forge builds but vs well executed 3 gate robot I fell it would crush this.
I disagree, the timing of the Robo is too late; already pressuring at opponents base before the first immortal pops. Building CC behind aggression, as well as bunker wall, and early composition of marauder and wm is very strong against this.
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when going 3 gate , robo "rain style" and scouting like most safe protoss i know and i do the robo is not for an immortal but an observer and the 3 gateways come online along with an observer at ~6 which is around when you hit if you leave your base a 5:15 roughly<- and this would be annoying vs concussion marauders but i doubt it would do alot of dmg due to the fact that overcharge would give an extra warp in after the first one and a ff on the ramp if you tried to suicide would keep you safe to secure that extra warp in and at this point it would be 8 units + msc to your 2-3 mines and 3-5 marauders depending if you rally forward in which case you wouldn't not do much dmg nor would i have to cut many probes letting us go into the mid game however i would have a lead in my opinion as my observers could easily scout follow ups and i would have close to 2 minutes to power freely, or more and if this follow up mine drop isn't effective other than scouting which i believe your even further behind
i just cant see this being effective vs a "safe" protoss player which most ladder toss are far from.
im a low gm protoss this is just my thoughts on your build sounds neat and very strong in the current meta especially if your build wasn't so reliant on protoss being caught off gaurd i would love it perhaps if you had scouting based tweaks t other build to adjust it could be extra strong, the only examples i can come with that are easy is you can cut corners on bunkers if you scout chrono's on probes and not gateway units to make the push happen faster, counting pylon/gas to know if you should invest in leaving your 2nd mine behind for possible oracle. im a fan of small scouting tweaks to any build so i might be biased.
- thanks Pirfiktshon if hammer or you would like to talk about im haffey.842 as i do play terran on kr server with alot of my time these days
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I think killswitch has Hammered the nail on the head ( no Pun INtened.... ok it was intended) I think if you start making these adjustments your timing would not only be faster in some cases but also a LOT stronger... But i'm a believer and I'm going to try this build tbh... even though I'm doing pretty darn good with my current set up....
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Im adapting this build as of tomorrow.
It's looks intriguing from the replays, you make valid points to as to why its good and you claim you have good win% in TvP. In times like these these sort of builds are more than welcome. Cheers!
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On March 18 2014 03:14 KillSwitch81 wrote:
when going 3 gate , robo "rain style" and scouting like most safe protoss i know and i do the robo is not for an immortal but an observer and the 3 gateways come online along with an observer at ~6 which is around when you hit if you leave your base a 5:15 roughly<- and this would be annoying vs concussion marauders but i doubt it would do alot of dmg due to the fact that overcharge would give an extra warp in after the first one and a ff on the ramp if you tried to suicide would keep you safe to secure that extra warp in and at this point it would be 8 units + msc to your 2-3 mines and 3-5 marauders depending if you rally forward in which case you wouldn't not do much dmg nor would i have to cut many probes letting us go into the mid game however i would have a lead in my opinion as my observers could easily scout follow ups and i would have close to 2 minutes to power freely, or more and if this follow up mine drop isn't effective other than scouting which i believe your even further behind
i just cant see this being effective vs a "safe" protoss player which most ladder toss are far from.
im a low gm protoss this is just my thoughts on your build sounds neat and very strong in the current meta especially if your build wasn't so reliant on protoss being caught off gaurd i would love it perhaps if you had scouting based tweaks t other build to adjust it could be extra strong, the only examples i can come with that are easy is you can cut corners on bunkers if you scout chrono's on probes and not gateway units to make the push happen faster, counting pylon/gas to know if you should invest in leaving your 2nd mine behind for possible oracle. im a fan of small scouting tweaks to any build so i might be biased.
Haffey, was good talking with you on battlenet today, thanks for going over those replays with me, I appreciate your input!
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EPT
