EPT[G] TvP Hammer Build, Crushing Protoss - Page 3
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McGoku
2 Posts
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
On March 19 2014 01:51 McGoku wrote: Well the build was fun at first but it's so easy to stop. All the guy has to do the moment he sees the factory is build a forge and 1-2 cannons at the entrance of his natural and poof he has 2 bases defended and you can't even harass AT ALL. He didn't have to pump units, he only spent 150 - 300 minerals on his cannons because the forge can be used right after anyway. Interesting first post, but what do cannons at the entrance to the natural have to do with drop defense? Phase 2 is a drop, and I'm curious how that went for you. By any chance, did all your units die to the 2 cannons? | ||
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-Hammer-
Canada107 Posts
On March 19 2014 01:51 McGoku wrote: Well the build was fun at first but it's so easy to stop. All the guy has to do the moment he sees the factory is build a forge and 1-2 cannons at the entrance of his natural and poof he has 2 bases defended and you can't even harass AT ALL. He didn't have to pump units, he only spent 150 - 300 minerals on his cannons because the forge can be used right after anyway. I've played against this, I just walked past his natural into his main and did a lot of damage. There is always some damage to be done, whether economic or otherwise. | ||
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-HuShang-
Canada393 Posts
On March 19 2014 03:05 -Hammer- wrote: I've played against this, I just walked past his natural into his main and did a lot of damage. There is always some damage to be done, whether economic or otherwise. Add Me: Squirtle.558(NA). We'll see how strong the build actually is  . Maybe I can give you some improvements too. | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
On March 19 2014 02:53 dUTtrOACh wrote: Interesting first post, but what do cannons at the entrance to the natural have to do with drop defense? Phase 2 is a drop, and I'm curious how that went for you. By any chance, did all your units die to the 2 cannons? Ive already adressed this in my previous post, the difference is this guy skipped a warp in to get the cannons down first. I dont like that as much because you have to be more on top of your scouting. If its a mine drop and you didnt put that cannon in your main down, it can delay you If it turns out to be a mine drop. Ive had people try the runby although not with this build its still the same response. If you dont be greedy like me then you have a sentry and you forcefield the ramp. If you are greedy then you need to be aware this can happen. The solution is simple though, just move the pylon a little up and or over so the cannons cover the ramp better. Again though as others have stated, opening safe robo will put you ahead vs this. Even if you missplace the pylon and cannons a little you can still target the mines down. | ||
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KingKayzz
33 Posts
I had this massive post written, vods and interviews included, but I closed my window and lost my precious wall of text. T_T Oh, well. I like the early marauder pressure. ^^ But, I think I'll stick to medivac/marine/mine for whenever I open gas first in TvP. Gas first MMM drop is 2 stronk in TvP at the moment to be trying other builds. lol | ||
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-Hammer-
Canada107 Posts
On March 19 2014 04:16 -HuShang- wrote: Add Me: Squirtle.558(NA). We'll see how strong the build actually is . Maybe I can give you some improvements too.Added :D I'm always up for improvements and constructive feedback! On March 19 2014 05:08 KingKayzz wrote: Dang. I had this massive post written, vods and interviews included, but I closed my window and lost my precious wall of text. T_T Oh, well. I like the early marauder pressure. ^^ But, I think I'll stick to medivac/marine/mine for whenever I open gas first in TvP. Gas first MMM drop is 2 stronk in TvP at the moment to be trying other builds. lol Sorry you lost your response.. hate that. What league are are you currently in? I really recommend trying the build. I just played several games against friend who is very high master toss/terran. He used the build on ladder and learned it well, and then played several matches against me. I won them all. It's very strong. Let me know if you have any questions, thoughts, or would like more replays. Cheers! | ||
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Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
One question though, this is essentially a two base all-in right? Not grieving you if it is, just wondering, as you don't look to get upgrades, and you seem to have a disdain towards P at the late game, much as myself :D | ||
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Kiaph
112 Posts
Yes, we all have that arrogant side of us, just waiting to show someone else up, and when players throw out statements like " low masters at best, horrible opponents, etc , and follow it up with "will never work"" they are asking for you to come back and show them up. Out of those people, their are multiple groups, I was in the group that dis owned you, and said it would never work, but as you prove time and time again it can work, and just like meching players in Pro league, prove time and time again it "can" work, I begin to really read more into your build, and maybe someday I might even use it on ladder. Then their are the people, who will always say it will not work, and never give it a try, watch replays at most, and theory craft all the things protoss could of done, and for the most part fail to mention all the things you are actively doing during that time. Maybe, your timing could be cleaner, but maybe the way you open provide a super economical way to go into mech with out dying, and even allowing for some agression, and each time I watch the replay, and think, okay if he blotches this he is dead, I realize that you still have something to fall back on, and unless you just get blind countered, like a proxy DT shrine after someone opens 3 gates with stalkers, and uses a proxy robo to sneak em into your base, while your preparing for some other tragedy , I really don't see you losing to "equally" skilled opponents, just because they meta gamed you. Finally to top it off, an early scout into the protoss base, will reveal all of this, if you fear being meta gamed, it so easy to scout for it, who can possible not have a nexus up by 6 mins, and only 1/2 gateways in their base and expect a terran not to be aware, I can tell you, the opponents you have faced recently are surely aware of this, and their game play shows it to be true. What you lack , is being able to compete with those who do open with any kind of corning-cutting defense, and end up out macroing you at the end, or killing you with a well planned timing, and to that I ask, are their games you lose when you felt that you played better, is your build order actually inneficent down deep inside, or do you whole heartly beleive you could of played it better, opening the same, and pulled off a win? If you favor the second, which you really act as if you do, always asking for the best opponents you can find, and trying to push this build onto players better then you to try out, then please keep updating this post, and keep making your build better. This build is solid, much more solid then the 3 rax of yesterday, but by no means is it complete, and after reading this tread, it is far from hitting a "dead end" Good job, keep it up, will watch replays as you post them, and maybe someday think about meching vs protoss. as of now.. friend of mine has me convinced , and I am starting to believe it myself mass viking/ghost is unbeatable, no way no how I could even begin to defend that statement, but that doesn't stop be from beginning to believe it. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
But I prefer to get that 1 marine to chase out the probe first. And I go for full mech, with mines, tanks hellbats vikings, not continuing marauders past the initial push. It's hilarious how so many Protoss don't bother to scout in the early game. | ||
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Gianttt
Netherlands194 Posts
On March 15 2014 01:09 -Hammer- wrote: Hi Giant, thanks for your thoughtful and constructive feedback. I do have some replays where little or no damage is done to Protoss in the traditional sense. By that I mean, killing lots of unit or workers. The build however, still forces Protoss to build army, when they want to chrono workers, build static defence, when they would rather not. So Even in these situations, I seem to find myself well ahead in supply during major engagements. I will try to get those replays up later today, and you're welcome to message online any time. Cheers. Hammer#1909 Nice man. I will add you. | ||
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sertas
Sweden878 Posts
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BoB_KiLLeR
Spain620 Posts
But anyway, great build! I love it! PS: Even if someone is bad mannered, it doesn't mean you have to bad manner him back. | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
threw down robo before nexus opening zlot/stalker/sentry. It got hairy but the obs gets out in time and the nexus survives with like a 100 hit points. Killed him with the counter attack with 2 immortals 4 sentries and 3 zlots on the initial warp ins. since I'm not used to opening robo in tvt I was a little anxious about my defense here since I went 3 gate robo instead of 2 gates with a forge for cannons. I think next time the cannons are a better idea. Also if I could do it over again I would have went for the nexus, then the robo. You can easily have more than enough forcefields to keep him off the ramp. Im not sure if that's optimal but I couldn't get the overcharge down until late because I delayed the nexus. The observer got out fast enough to kill the mines without them getting anything, but at the same time it left the marauders free to chug away on the nexus. | ||
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DaveSprite
United States79 Posts
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
On March 20 2014 04:25 shivver wrote: ran into this for the first time today, i threw down a robo before nexus after seeing the marauder ( im going robo everytime I don't see a reaper now, it's just more useful against builds when they go gas imo. threw down robo before nexus opening zlot/stalker/sentry. It got hairy but the obs gets out in time and the nexus survives with like a 100 hit points. Killed him with the counter attack with 2 immortals 4 sentries and 3 zlots on the initial warp ins. since I'm not used to opening robo in tvt I was a little anxious about my defense here since I went 3 gate robo instead of 2 gates with a forge for cannons. I think next time the cannons are a better idea. Also if I could do it over again I would have went for the nexus, then the robo. You can easily have more than enough forcefields to keep him off the ramp. Im not sure if that's optimal but I couldn't get the overcharge down until late because I delayed the nexus. The observer got out fast enough to kill the mines without them getting anything, but at the same time it left the marauders free to chug away on the nexus. Interesting. One base marauder play (2 rax) fell out of wol because the immortal counter attack was so strong that it usually killed terran. I wonder if the same counter attack could be used to kill this build. WM certainly spice up the action but 2 fast immortals with an obs seem like they should hit pretty hard. | ||
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-Hammer-
Canada107 Posts
On March 19 2014 06:49 Ctone23 wrote: I've been wondering about this style of composition since the Hellbat came out. Nice to see some success coming out of it. I try my hardest with MMM+Ghost+Viking and my macro just never seems to be able to keep up in the late game, as zealots run-by, etc, widdle me down. One question though, this is essentially a two base all-in right? Not grieving you if it is, just wondering, as you don't look to get upgrades, and you seem to have a disdain towards P at the late game, much as myself :D It is more of a two base style for sure. Although I will say, the opener itself is so strong, it can certainly allow for macro style, earlier 3rd CC type play. For me I like quicker games TvP. That Protoss late army.. On March 19 2014 09:09 Kiaph wrote: This build is solid, much more solid then the 3 rax of yesterday, but by no means is it complete, and after reading this tread, it is far from hitting a "dead end" Good job, keep it up, will watch replays as you post them, and maybe someday think about meching vs protoss. as of now.. friend of mine has me convinced , and I am starting to believe it myself mass viking/ghost is unbeatable, no way no how I could even begin to defend that statement, but that doesn't stop be from beginning to believe it. Thanks! Glad you like it, and thanks for your lengthy response. Still needs some polishing indeed, but getting to a pretty good place. On March 19 2014 10:04 Psychobabas wrote: This build has so far worked for me really well. But I prefer to get that 1 marine to chase out the probe first. And I go for full mech, with mines, tanks hellbats vikings, not continuing marauders past the initial push. It's hilarious how so many Protoss don't bother to scout in the early game. Awesome. Why not a marauder a little later to get the probe It makes for a much stronger timing, and it doesn't really matter if the probe gets a scout as long as you have really tight timings. Glad it's working well for you!@Giantt Sounds good. Message me anytime @Sertas Can't touch this.. build.. if you're Protoss.. well maybe 15% of the time :D | ||
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-Hammer-
Canada107 Posts
On March 19 2014 23:43 BoB_KiLLeR wrote: Used it 3 times on ladder now. It worked 3 times in a row. Beside the first game where my opponent went for 4 gate it was as standart as it should be. I added my own little style into it, by teching +1 and get blue flame a little later. When the push hits it should be both done though. I think the early marauder and widow mines totally screw a protoss over because they are not used to it at all. I have to see how it works once a Protoss can hold the heavy push later on, because this build doesn't focuse on upgrades, while protoss players usually play greedy on upgrades. But anyway, great build! I love it! Great to hear! The opening is definitely the most important part of the build. If you find variances that work better for your style later in the game have at er. On March 20 2014 04:25 shivver wrote: ran into this for the first time today, i threw down a robo before nexus after seeing the marauder ( im going robo everytime I don't see a reaper now, it's just more useful against builds when they go gas imo. threw down robo before nexus opening zlot/stalker/sentry. It got hairy but the obs gets out in time and the nexus survives with like a 100 hit points. Killed him with the counter attack with 2 immortals 4 sentries and 3 zlots on the initial warp ins. since I'm not used to opening robo in tvt I was a little anxious about my defense here since I went 3 gate robo instead of 2 gates with a forge for cannons. I think next time the cannons are a better idea. Also if I could do it over again I would have went for the nexus, then the robo. You can easily have more than enough forcefields to keep him off the ramp. Im not sure if that's optimal but I couldn't get the overcharge down until late because I delayed the nexus. The observer got out fast enough to kill the mines without them getting anything, but at the same time it left the marauders free to chug away on the nexus. Perhaps you played me on my smurf account? I would be interested in seeing a replay. Glad to hear the build is keeping your Protoss on your toes On March 20 2014 10:24 DaveSprite wrote: Words can't express how much fun this build is, especially at the lower levels where everything is viable. It's really a treat- thanks Hammer! (5-0 with it in gold btw) Sweet brother! Great to hear positive feedback like that. Work at keeping those timings tight, and you can use the build all the way up to Masters (at least). | ||
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hfsrj
Germany166 Posts
Since I also play 2v2 a lot (reached master there), I think a small deviation from this could make a nice expand build into 2 base all-in... Since imo in 2v2 the goal is to expand as soon as possible without dying, and push with the strongest possible force off 2 bases. | ||
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-Hammer-
Canada107 Posts
On March 15 2014 04:27 dUTtrOACh wrote: vs Proxy Oracle, do you just die, or is it a 50-50, because of Widow-Mines? I'm mostly curious about the 20% of losses you've experienced with this build. What kills you most? Protoss that do stalker timings? Skytoss builds? What about the old 3-gate void-ray? Or is is more a matter of if the Protoss plays well, they win? I could picture immortal archon just destroying this outright in an even econ scenario. Dependence on WM for anti-air also seems like it would be weak against DTs, or warp-prism harass. Do you play against that much? Thanks for the questions. Proxy Oracle is easy to defend as long as you control the mines at your base correctly and don't let them get picked off. Typically able to do very good damage at the Protoss base as they have little defence. I get some DT play and that can be tough, but if there is no base or late base I ALWAYS get ebay down asap. Warp prism is usually not a problem. Tbh, if I lose, it's usually the result of my error, not the build. Sometimes it's control, or decision making, but the build is really tight. Feel free to message me on BN Hammer#1909 if you have any more quick questions. Cheers. | ||
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