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Need some more replays Mr. Hammer sir.
Trying to tweak the build but my knowledge on the build is currently limited :D
For example, I notice how great the timing mid game is, but these replays show case 20+ probe kills and/or Nexus snipes.
Let see what happens if you only say you only kill units, and under 10 probes.. for research purposes.. for improvement :D
I need the following.
Nexus first w/ probe scout, builds forge + cannon at front upon scouting.
Gateway expand, on alterzim, scouts and builds sentry to hold ramp.
Well executed 1 base blink >> protoss denies going up his ramp until he moves out.
Well executed 2 base blink >> 6/7 gate (depending on time/map) after any quick expand with forge/cannon or sentry/FF to hold your aggression..
Well executed fake 2 base blink >> 3/4 gate same as above.
Normal macro game after holding on Alterzim w/ sentry , opening 2-3 gateways expand(any map), opening any nexus/forge combo(any map).
-Would like one with :
-archon//HT transition, though I know it should be weak to your build, I fear for a strong Chargelot/Archon timing.
-standard robo timing (or as close to standard as defending versus this build allows)
-Blink into Collosi ( can be given as the fake blink build as well )
-Blink into HT ( can be given as the fake blink build as well )
-more examples of Non standard protoss play (taking robo + twilight , before getting colossi/templar) - oracle/blink/etc
Well, I am sure I will face these as I ladder, but your mechanics are better than mine. I wan't to use that to study these replays and find ways to play to the map, and play to the strength of the build, while not over committing to aggression, and keeping up in macro, with potential of getting ahead, with bare minimum aggression..
The benefit, for wasting all your time saving these replays.. win or loss, is a helping hand in refining your build,
I decided to make this my next project after finally giving up on reaper FE. After many losses to early aggression. Even scouting the aggression, I found myself forced into super defensive play, and far behind late game, or dead before I could think about getting to the late game.
I posted a build, long ago, after weeks of refining, prior to widow-mine nerf, that uses quick barracks and widowmines to be aggressive, and expands behind it, however the expand is later than yours, and the protoss defense required for both is nearly identical. With that being said, I want to try to refine your build because it offers a stronger mid game if defended against properly than my own, as well as more possible variations.
Like you, I am pretty good at refining timings/macro so hopefully I will be able to strengthen your build, once I have better understanding of how it plays out against multiple scenarios . :D
Initial thoughts after watching the current replays.
Make sure to pay attention to your saturation, you tend to slip on SCV production, or build way to many, for 2 bases.
This delays your third/upgrades more than anything else in your build, if you cut at ~50-55 workers every game, possible before 12 minutes, that means by 13 minutes you have the money for your third, every game.
You also rely on scans to fight DT , in the future, when you scout a darkshrine, if you haven't started this already, take another orbital, since moving out , most of the time, would be risky, prepare for the future. Ravens are nice, but you and I probably both agree until you have at least 0-2/2-0(your preference) mech, the money is better spent on ghost/mech/upgrades.
After a couple few hours of working with the build.
First, taking the gas with depot building SCV is optimal, then at 13 supply rally towards gas geyser, build barracks, and make another scv.. this will time out perfectly with the build, and provides the most amount of mineral income.
Secondly, if you have used this build before against an opponent, and know he will meta game you, the extra minerals allow for a third to go down at 5:15 with a slight delay (5-10 seconds at most) on the 4rth mara and 3rd widowmine.
From here you now have the option to play defensively, or aggressively, if defensive, it took me awhile to work a way to play this defensively using so much gas up at the start, but if you rely on 5-6 widowmines and 6-7 mara , defending against most 2 base aggression is very possible while getting tanks/helbat/medivac/ emergency bunkers.
Take the gas at the natural as fast as possible is probably key to this build, if you want to expand just wait an extra 30-60 seconds before taking the gas, but make sure you know your opponent has intentions to macro, otherwise you leave yourself with whopping 60-90second window of no tanks/hellbat support, and that can be game ending.
Finally, my macro variation needs lots of improvement, so more replays from you would really help, and try to make sure your scv/building timings are refined as possible, this way I have more room to work with :D ,,,
Best example would be like you run into a sentry(ramp) or cannon at the front, in response just skip bunkers and go for a 8:30 third, to support this only get 1 extra factory till your economy starts to roll, if they expanded and committed to defenses, this should be very viable.. have to test in a game, if they didn't commit to defense, your medivac , can act as an elevator for mara/mines buying plenty of time for safety... testing needed.
+ Show Spoiler +http://drop.sc/377878
VS AI .. if you can check this out, i know it sloppy, was trying to type while do it lol, but yeah for general purposes, because I *THINK* this is a possible route to take against defensive toss, that your build is actually pretty safe.
I am sure you have already begun working with things like this, but please post more replays :D
I am not a protoss, so there may be something crucial that I may be ignorant about, in terms of how much I can / cannot get away with macro wise, and I am afraid these diamond protoss are not going to reveal that knowledge to me 
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i go 1/1 expand into bio but i go 3 marines then tech lab attack with 3 marines 2 widow mines and 2 marauders. then drop 2nd rax starport reactor on factory and go into 2 rax with drops get dbl eng bay 3 more rax then take third.
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Simply put, unless you manage to deal massive damage against the Protoss with either the mid-game Mine drop or the initial Marauder/Mine pressure, there is absolutely no way this build will work against a Protoss player ...
I can agree with this to a certain extent, however good scouting by terran, that is now possible with a scan from the third orbital, or active mara/mine harass should still let the terran know he is going to be outproduced.
From here, would it not be possible to secure around 6 widowmines, and rush for quicker ghost staying on 2 factories ?
Now, I don't want to play the theory craft game, not because I don't believe you, but because your opponents are better than mine own. So there is no way to know if my argument.. that may seem valid "theory" wise, is not actually just bias based off my lack luster competition.
However, I do hope that terrans are good enough that with smart harass that this build can be used as a way to scout, and safely secure a third base. With that in mind, I have to ask you is your build as viable in game as it is on paper?
We know that strong timing attacks, against any terran build will slow down the third and/or kill the terran if they are out of position or lack proper defense.
That being said, if a terran plays a pro-active macro style, using a quick 2nd medivac to break weak points in defense, or multi-prong harass, the build it self easily has 180+ supply at 14:30 .. even with my poor macro, so even if the terran was forced to get extra bunkers, could you realistically transition into something that could stop him if you failed to kill the terran, third or no third.
I say third or not, because I have learned that the 2 factories with constant macro actually produce hammer on 2 bases, though I am playing against AI, and he is slightly delayed from his multitasking, I don't want what I think could be happening to me, happen to you. We both may be a little bit over bias here. There are multiple replays where hammer begins to float around 8-9 minutes, and isn't able to really dispose of it till after ghost production, however because ghost production is dependent on gas, I found that getting the CC may not actually delay much of anything at all, and may even be better for the build in terms of scouting possibilities, so lets move on.
Will this attack put you at risk of dying to / or getting super behind to medivac(s) drop harass?
Remember terran is doing a 1-1-1 and if he scouts the cannon(s) his/her starport is going to be way faster than in the replays we are using as a reference, as well as quicker gas timings all around, meaning more aggression possibilities, yes his 3rd/4rth gas will be delayed, to get the CC , but that's a 400 mineral widow that you have to hit, and you have to do so taking almost no damage, or just by out playing your opponent in terms of macro in the case you do take minor damage.
-Edit-
Also would active hellion play, with mara / mine support not crush someone trying to get those gate ways running, even if you get them up.. hellions will kite all day, in the end forcing more static defense / delaying your push.
-This is not standard, but could be a response to scouting someone rushing templar archives/mass gateways?
The Attack itself
If you do hit this timing, we can both agree like all timings, a terran under prepared, or out of position will surely be forced into a base race / game ending scenario, unless the protoss is just being that severely out played.
With a possible quicker medivac(or two), and an extra scan (or two) now available, would a terran not be able to fortify his third / natural on most maps with 3 bunkers, 5-6 widowmines, a couple tanks and mara in the bunkers. Leaving his hellbats free to move around the base to defend zealot warp ins, if need be. Keep in mind, a couple tanks will soon turn into a large number, and almost every game terran has 4 vikings at 11:30, if they start a reactor after medivac( or two if macro ), these can be cut if its apparent no widowmines are coming out, leaving a whopping 600/300 extra resources at the terran's disposal for defensive purposes. ( or aggressive if something screams "attack me now" )
Now, I am not saying you can't hit before this.. key defensive moment, but I am asking, can you do so with out leaving yourself wide open to a terran with active medivacs?
And right now I believe the answer is yes/no .. I think it would come down to the better player, making things happen.
But, as stated previously .. I could be.. just overly bias towards this build.. after all: I spent around 5 hours trying to maximize its effectiveness in the late game.
A bit of weakness
I updated to agree with you that the build may have it's weaknesses that may completely wipe it off the face on the planet, or even be obvious enough to keep professional level players from even trying to use the build.
Multiple tech paths. Being unable to scout all tech paths, with this build leaves you .. blind countering your opponent early on with defensive positioning, it may be possible to hide tech and use it with scouted tech in order to break the terran early if you can manage to minimize losses at home.
My current dilemma is robo in main base, proxy twilight/shrine. Where as it should be easy to scout something is missing, its hard to make a safe judgement on what is missing, with out actually scouting it. Once DT get into my main base, via warp prism, they are able to out run my slow mech army and stay alive doing free damage until I can get turrets in the right position.
The simple solution, put 2 Mara/2 Helbat in the main and hold off on placing turrets / save a scan until you know for sure, this cost you a scan and doesn't leave you dead to any all ins if you was wrong and just went for adding 3-4 turrets first.
However it does delay your build, and if it was a proxy nexus across the map, holding onto the mule, and spreading your units out may have been all your opponent needed to barely hold on during your 14 min push, or if proxy gateways -> for hitting a crucial timing attack, both options can then snow ball into your base with zealot/archon/immortal. ( or w/e else that may work ) ..
So yeah that is my current Dilemma.. but there could be others.. that have not been revealed.
But, medivacs + mara kill the nexus/gateways.. so if I scout it early.. can fix the dilemma, but somehow I don't find it when I do scout, and most of the time.. I don't think to scout till it is to late (cannons / warp in)
However.. I will go out on a limb.. and say that dilemma is not just mech related.. maybe more prevalent .. but exist in almost any given PvT where the Protoss proxies structures.
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Doom drops can save games against Protoss timing-attacks, but Mech doesn't really do drop play very well when it comes to killing buildings. It can go for workers with Hellbats/Mines/Hellions against a Protoss who is weak on defending drops, but you're not going to be able to base-race with those units. Warp-ins will clean them up before they manage to kill a single Gateway. You could send all your Bio units to be dropped, but then what's protecting your Mech units back home? I don't really think that this build is setup for this kind of drop play because you really don't have the right unit composition for it to work.
Overall after reading all your post I do agree with you.
Currently after the third widowmine I start a reactor, and a 2nd gas.
So far this has not effected my widowmine drop at all.. just means I wont have a 4rth widow-mine for the agression a the start of the game.. and the 3rd widowmine is always close enough to defend proxy oracles.
No protoss is yet to have a cannon or deny the nexus snipe... but.. I eagerly wait for a chance to get to try making some hellions against a protoss who does :D
Your probably right.. till probably get shut down with ease but if I don't try it .. I will never know :D
Thanks for the reply... at least I have a decent idea at what I am going to try against protoss who defends well.. and if that fails.. well I guess its time to move on ( or try a couple more times? :D )
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Well.. Finally guess I will say it..
The build sucks.
I tweaked with it.. and even manage to beat some high diamonds.
However.. over all it sucks.
Sorry hammer.
No matter what I did, or how i did it, I could not out macro cronoboost, so if I DID not do damage it was GG
The more I played with it the more I learned Protoss just don't take damage as easy as they do in your replays.. something tells me this is a troll post, and you had to play a lot of games just to get the 6-7 wins you have.
The first thing is oracles.. at first easy.. but logner I played the more protss begin just sitting the oracles in my mineral lines waiting for the widowmine to pop and dying me mining.. till I had 2 widowmines.
From there they would use the photon over charge at hom.. and stay on 1 base and bring 2nd oracle home and shgut down my agression completely , while denying me mining for quite some time... it was GG.
Blink... Great build order to counter blink. 100% only thing I liked about it.
Standard opening, if they porotss is smart they will pull all their workers and attack you, pulling their probes back as you begin to burry the mines, with a little bit of micro, they can hold and then the nexus cannon at the natural ends the game.
The widow mine drop has a small chance of doing damage, but I find unless I did damage earlier the risk to drop the widowmines almost never pays off, as in.. a hullicinated pheonix scouts my widowmines have moved.. and I find 4-5 gateway worth of production in my face.
Looks like its back to standard 1 rax FE and pray for no oracle... sad to say your build order.. just takes.. a bit of "Common sense" to handle.
Where as your push is strong.. and really gave me something to strive for.. I just cant get to the 14 min mark with your army ( unless I do damage early on) against a smart protoss. So I guess back to my Marine widowmine all in.. at least.. it works against everything with good marine micro. :D
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I'd go for first mine immediately in mineral line and push without it if i'm not 100% sure there will be no oracles. Sure it delays the agression, but if they're on one base like you said and we're planning to expand it's not a big deal.
For me the opener itself is great because it gives you blind counters for blink plays AND oracles which are the most common Toss shenanigans. Then, if they DO play standard, well, you have delayed economy but good map control (mines everywhere) and can choose to play whatever you want from this point, bio or mech.(maybe excluding 3rd base greediness)
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On April 06 2014 15:32 Kiaph wrote:
Well.. Finally guess I will say it..
The build sucks.
I tweaked with it.. and even manage to beat some high diamonds.
However.. over all it sucks.
Sorry hammer.
You're a platinum player with 700 games played this season. I suspect this build not working for you, is more about your ability to execute it properly, and manage different Protoss responses. I am having solid success with it in high Master League, and have received positive feedback from several GM players.
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On April 07 2014 17:53 SatedSC2 wrote:
This isn't a good/stable opening because it's very easy to deflect the initial pressure and then crush through the timing-attack once you know the proper response. I have nothing against cheese builds, and this will definitely work very well against people who haven't seen it before or who don't manage to scout that it's coming, but acting as if this is a good/stable opening is disingenuous.
Are you writing this based on experience or theory? I have used this build many times, and as previously mentioned, even if direct damage is not accomplished, indirect damage to Protoss economy is. Protoss needs to use chrono on army, engage at a time they would rather be focusing on macro, and so on. My numbers speak for themselves, your feedback is just conjecture.
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probably a better response to that is going voids like I said earlier and going up to like 3 and then taking your oracle and moving across the map to his base. You got detection so
Not that there's anything wrong with charge/archon you're talking about. I just don't like charging into hellbats and mines myself. The fact that he has a very serious AA issue is what I'm liking.
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IMO if you want a nice cheesy tvp build, use the ruff reaper build.
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On April 07 2014 10:26 -Hammer- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2014 15:32 Kiaph wrote:
Well.. Finally guess I will say it..
The build sucks.
I tweaked with it.. and even manage to beat some high diamonds.
However.. over all it sucks.
Sorry hammer.
You're a platinum player with 700 games played this season. I suspect this build not working for you, is more about your ability to execute it properly, and manage different Protoss responses. I am having solid success with it in high Master League, and have received positive feedback from several GM players.
Nice.
Your point is valid.
Your build is strong
Your tactic is flawed.
A protoss player, in almost any given league is capable of basic micro. With basic micro, a protoss who scouts this factory, if he or she should opt to take a second gas, before / right after expanding and skip the zealot knowing it will be useless(Most skip this zealot anyways) they will find themselfs in prime position to defend against your push. The Gas will be used in order of stalker, mothershipcore, robotics facility, stalker, observer.
Rally 5 Probes to your natural, that finished before the push arives, When the terran attacks pull 3-4 probes and attack into the terran with 2 stalkers 3-4 probes and a mothership core.
The terran will attempt to kill the protoss' mothershipcore , the protoss can pull back the MSC and lure the mines furtherforward, these mines are being focuse fired, if the terran doesnt burry right away, he loses 1 widowmine.
THe protoss kills 1 widowmine.. then a moves his stalkers MSC, and the remaining probes in his natural, before the widowmines can shoot again the observer will pop out.
The protoss can start an imortal right away instead of the widowmines, this will also pop before the widowmines get to shoot again, and completely clean up your army, buying protoss the time he/she needs to get an observer.
the Terran's natural is late, the protoss used a total of 2 chronoboost on a robo to hold your attack, and can go back to constant probe production and play the game with a very huge lead.
This is not just "some theoretical situation". This happens every time the protoss scouts, builds a quick robo, and micro's his units/probes propperly.
And IF they open cannons.. let hope they don't, because there is always a canon in the mineral lines.. and direct hits from widowmines.. I have found my self very far behind, no damage early on, protoss (should) take a third at 7-8 minutes into the game, and there is nothing the terran can do to deny it, if you manage to force a early photon overcharge against cannons.. maybe you can deny the third.. but realistally the protoss with have 2 overcharges, with a third overchage with in 20 seconds of the 2nd one ending, making the third impossible to crack with out critical army mass loss.
IF the protoss stays on 2 bases.. and i land widowmines.. sure I win.. yeah bunkers at my front... they all in.. its GG .. they dont all in.. its GG .. cause i reck their eco .. but if they took a early third.. this build screams defeat.
How many games have I played with this build?
Countless peepmode games against all level of players.
Mimimum of 20 ladder games.
minimum of 20 unranked games.
Mimumum of 50 vs AI opponent where I wasted hours ( 3 days striaght I spent 3-5 hours) refining my build / following mech timing.
Results..
Easy wins against non robo play
Easy wins against robo play with protoss not microing MSC back.
Easy wins against stargate play (proxy or not) ( with 1 exception )
Defeat against stargate (the exception )play where protoss leaves first oracle above mineral line and sends second home to defend.
Defeat against any early robo play where protoss doesn't suicide his first few units for free into widowmines.
Defeat against all builds with a canon at the front.
Defeat against 4 gate. ( Very close games.. but No wins yet.. the proxy warp in of zealots and 1 stalker almost always kills me and if it doesnt kill me buys protoss time to get cannons / robo .. even if i kill probes.. I wind up far far behind.
"don't go up ramp" approach .. is possible but well timed 4 gates actually hit before my main army gets home.
I almost didn't want to post.. because know I am just bumping your thread.
But, the build is strong.. and if I am desprate for cheese ... I use your build, and get easy wins probably 1/3 of the time, I am uncertain how you are able to keep winning over 50% of the time .. at first the build won me 4-5 games in a row.. but the better players i play the less often i win.
I would love to see some recent replays of you "crushing" masterportoss who don't let you get an "easy win" .. *conditions stated above.
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On April 10 2014 15:38 Kiaph wrote:
How many games have I played with this build?
Countless peepmode games against all level of players.
Mimimum of 20 ladder games.
minimum of 20 unranked games.
Mimumum of 50 vs AI opponent where I wasted hours ( 3 days striaght I spent 3-5 hours) refining my build / following mech timing.
3 variatons of the same word xD
For me it seems there is no really viable mech build right now (more Korean Pros would use it if there was one).
Anyways it's always nice to have a single build which can surprise your opponents in a Best of X series.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
On March 14 2014 14:34 MrBarryObama wrote:
Really cool build!
But I've watched the first two games you posted, and in both games you bm your opponent.
this makes this guide even better.
saying bad things to toss is not a bm
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But, the build is strong.. and if I am desprate for cheese ... I use your build, and get easy wins probably 1/3 of the time, I am uncertain how you are able to keep winning over 50% of the time .. at first the build won me 4-5 games in a row.. but the better players i play the less often i win.
I would love to see some recent replays of you "crushing" masterportoss who don't let you get an "easy win" .. *conditions stated above.
You fail to realize that ladder is best of 1. Most protoss nowadays will go for the 2 base blink all in(like myself on yeonsu vs hammer),proxy Oracle, or some other type of cheesy shannenegan. Not everybody plays completely safe and knows the appropriate response to this build because it's their first time playing against it. It's the same scenario as nanis 1 gate expo into 4 gate he introduced in 2012 vs drg in gsl. As a result hammer will win a majority of his wins. If Hammer where to play duckdeok and duckdeok would 2 base blink all in no scout. Hammer would win no matter how godlike duckdeoks micro is because it's a build order win. It's just how ladder works.
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EPT
