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On April 24 2014 16:56 klup wrote:My personal feedback on this build (low master). Strong first attack with the 3 maraud 2 mines but OPcharge can nullify this on many new maps. The mine drop cannot succeed afterwards unless the protoss player is going full retard. You put pression early on with mines, he will have tools to detect/counter mine drop. Most of the time they just camp stalkers in mineral lines waiting for the drop without scouting anything because it is obvious next move. The push with hellbat tank ghost is really really strong but I think this build is easily countered by a protoss that know what is happening. If he sees the push 3 maraud 2 mines, he will scout for this build and then just 3 base macro ultra greedy because he know pressure will come only after 13 min. Then it's just basic mathematics he just have too much stuff. I wonder if there is a way to get to your push hellbat tank ghost using hellion pressure instead of WM in the midgame especially to counter the 3 base greed. Because let's face it it's not a 4 WM drop that will do anything to a competent protoss on 3 bases. It's good fun to try this for time to time, I like awkward strategies because i'm sick of "standard" play. I just added your build to my arsenal of "crazy" builds and I think it have a great potential on certain maps. Also it is really good stuff for macro mecanics practice because I find really demanding to maintain perfect macro for this build. It is very challenging compared to bio play (maybe because I am so much used to make bio  )
1. Wait 60 seconds, attack again.
2. Mine drop, hellbat drop, cloakshee, doesn't matter, do someithing, damage, scout
3. Glad you have some fun with it
And yes, it's good macro mechanic practice, as you can go hard on this after the initial pressure
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France612 Posts
What are you thought on building a hellion based aggression since you build a lot of hellbat anyway sticking at home for like 4+ minutes and then research the transformation servos to get those beefy hellbats when the push timing bell is ringing?
I will try this approach for my next games with this strategy , it will need adaptation of the BO after the initial push. I will give you my feedback on that .
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On April 24 2014 19:03 klup wrote:What are you thought on building a hellion based aggression since you build a lot of hellbat anyway sticking at home for like 4+ minutes and then research the transformation servos to get those beefy hellbats when the push timing bell is ringing? I will try this approach for my next games with this strategy , it will need adaptation of the BO after the initial push. I will give you my feedback on that .
Sounds good. Are you thinking like helli drops, or runbys? Let me know how it goes! Bonsoir
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Hey Hammer, I've tested the Sky-Terran Mid-Late games I was talking. The only problem is that, if I understood well the purpose if the build, is to have more supply than the toss and not upgrades at all, so, Sky-Terran relies too damn much in upgrades to be efficient. Can you give me any ideas?, I do the opening, the Marauder/Widow Mine pressure, then the Widow Mine drop and then I go to Sky-Terran.
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On April 25 2014 05:09 KaiserCommander wrote:
Hey Hammer, I've tested the Sky-Terran Mid-Late games I was talking. The only problem is that, if I understood well the purpose if the build, is to have more supply than the toss and not upgrades at all, so, Sky-Terran relies too damn much in upgrades to be efficient. Can you give me any ideas?, I do the opening, the Marauder/Widow Mine pressure, then the Widow Mine drop and then I go to Sky-Terran.
You're still going to need solid defence in the mid-game, so you will have to turtle mech into air. I would recommend an early third CC when safe, and hellbat drops while you're building your sky army.
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just tried this and damn, did the protoss get owned. im only low masters atm but this build is pretty damn sharp. dont feel like the protoss can come up with a suitable repsonse in time for the mech poush unless he is very familiar with the build already and knows in advance, that it is coming. scouting certainly isnt enough.
GJ hammer keep up the great work
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On April 24 2014 01:42 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 00:45 tmh wrote:
hi, i used to post in the bnet forums since hammer is popular there. i just want to say that this build does work and i've beaten a ton of high masters players with it. the only issue i have is that sometimes my opponents will open with phoenixes and will just lift up the widow mines in the pressure push (beginning of the game) Another 1 post user, this time with a mitigating statement. Not suspicious at all xD
how about giving constructive feedback instead of getting lost in ludacris conspiracy theories m8?
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On April 25 2014 19:40 SatedSC2 wrote:Like I said in this post, I'm still very interested in how Hammer would respond to a situation where his opponent has more upgrades than him, a larger army than him, better tech than him and a better economy than him :3
It's extremely rare that an opponent ever has a larger army than me. Like I've mentioned several times, even if early pressure is stopped it's still forcing Protoss to chrono army and not be as economically solid, so there is "damage" done in that sense. I also use the build adaptively, and adjust as I need based on Protoss is doing. For example I played an opponent on Alterzim once, and 14 min timing was effective but didn't outright win. I transitioned into macro play, and it was a pretty solid, epic air battle. Good players always play reactively to a certain extent, so that is also necessary when it comes to this build, like any other.
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On April 25 2014 19:40 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 09:25 dasdasd wrote:On April 24 2014 01:42 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 24 2014 00:45 tmh wrote:
hi, i used to post in the bnet forums since hammer is popular there. i just want to say that this build does work and i've beaten a ton of high masters players with it. the only issue i have is that sometimes my opponents will open with phoenixes and will just lift up the widow mines in the pressure push (beginning of the game) Another 1 post user, this time with a mitigating statement. Not suspicious at all xD how about giving constructive feedback instead of getting lost in ludacris conspiracy theories m8? If you read the whole thread then you'll see that I've made plenty of constructive posts. Given that Hammer ignored my very detailed direct-counter to this build (as well as my evidence of it working) before going on to dismiss the ease at which I can crush it by claiming that he has " received a lot of positive feedback from GM players", you should probably aim your comments about constructive posting at Hammer instead of at me. He has done nothing to dismiss the very obvious flaws that people have shown this build to have, choosing instead to throw out ad hominems and false appeals to authority. I find it very curious that none of these supposed GM players have come forward to defend this build, but I do not find it surprising given that a Masters player such as myself was able to formulate a direct counter to this opening having only encountered it once. EDIT: Like I said in this post, I'm still very interested in how Hammer would respond to a situation where his opponent has more upgrades than him, a larger army than him, better tech than him and a better economy than him :3
dude a bronze level theorycraft is not constructive feedback in my eyes. how would any opening or build work if the enemy was ahead in every regard. if u actually had tried the build or playing against it when properly executed you would see that there is no window for protoss to get ahead on upgrades and army unless you mess the build up every step of the way
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@Sated Lmao your obsessed with this build/thread. Kind of sad. And you haven't crushed me, so who knows if your opponent was even implementing the build correctly.
No chrono but you're building cannons, 200 mins down the drain. I've gone up against player that cannon at the front and rolled them. Your talk is just conjecture, move along.
;D
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@Sated Thanks for your feedback. The build is solid, and continuing to dominate protoss players. Cheers ;D
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It's an interesting idea, but I've been shut down completely doing this build a few times. Since it's pretty hard to hide, an early MSC can hold it off with the nexus cannon. Then the mech follow up push thats at around 13-14 gets absolutely WRECKED if they go skytoss(rather tempest heavy). Mech is just too easily countered if they know what they're doing.
You're better off going some sort of 1 base drop, instead of doing this push, because you're more likely to do damage with the 1 base drop despite your opponents reaction.
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On April 29 2014 03:22 OGzan wrote:
It's an interesting idea, but I've been shut down completely doing this build a few times. Since it's pretty hard to hide, an early MSC can hold it off with the nexus cannon. Then the mech follow up push thats at around 13-14 gets absolutely WRECKED if they go skytoss(rather tempest heavy). Mech is just too easily countered if they know what they're doing.
You're better off going some sort of 1 base drop, instead of doing this push, because you're more likely to do damage with the 1 base drop despite your opponents reaction.
OGz, another way you can do the opening and reduce scouting is to 12 rax 12 gas and get 2 marines first before marauders. Try this and you might have better success. Are you pushing early as possible (leaving around 5:15) and forcing nex cannon, retreating and pushing hard 60 seconds later? These are important parts of the early pressure.
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On April 28 2014 20:46 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 06:33 -Hammer- wrote:
@Sated Lmao your obsessed with this build/thread. Kind of sad. And you haven't crushed me, so who knows if your opponent was even implementing the build correctly.
No chrono but you're building cannons, 200 mins down the drain. I've gone up against player that cannon at the front and rolled them. Your talk is just conjecture, move along.
;D What can I say? I don't like it when people lie. I didn't realise that a Cannon costs 200 minerals, that's some good knowledge that you have there. And it isn't exactly "200" minerals down the drain if it helps to deflect your push, especially since your push costs you far more than "200" minerals to execute. Like I said, the build I use to deflect your opening is a build that already gets a Cannon in the main and a Cannon at the natural, adding an additional Cannon to the natural isn't a big deal relative to the economic hit you take by using your opening. Two Cannons and Photon Overcharge often times crush your push with ease. My talk isn't conjecture. I've crushed this build multiple times, whereas you've yet to provide a single replay of a game were the Protoss didn't completely derp against your pressure. My counter-build is a build that I copied from TAiLS and so is something that works at a high KR GM level (albeit with the addition of a single Cannon to deflect the initial pressure), whereas your build isn't used by anyone who is even close to being that relevant. Finally, whether I was playing against you or not is irrelevant, unless you truly believe that Masters players can't execute a build order properly in the early stages of the game. I highly doubt that the people I've played are missing some magic timing to deal damage that only you can hit. You're incredibly arrogant considering that not a single notable player has backed you up. Where are these GM players you keep talking about? If you've had good feedback from GM players, I'm sure you'll be able to show some replays of a GM player using this build in GM league against a Protoss who scouts it and reacts properly EDIT: Your build is essentially like a Dark Templar rush. If the Terran scouts it, figures it out, and responds properly, they take no damage and probably win the game because the Protoss is pretty far behind. If the Terran doesn't scout it, doesn't figure it out, or doesn't respond properly, then they take a lot of damage and the game is more or less over. A Dark Templar rush is a cheese. This is a cheese. End of story.
Do you even know what a "cheese" is?, I mean, I don't know about cheeses that allow Mid-Late game and, to add, you're in same terms with Hammer saying you took the build from TAiLS, the magic words are "you say". All build have pros and cons, this is not a magic all powered build, but reading the thread, is a viable build, as I said in previous posts, I feel it need to be refined, it suffers of some serious flawsd epending in opponent micro, but not on composition.
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On April 29 2014 22:30 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 07:11 KaiserCommander wrote:On April 28 2014 20:46 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 28 2014 06:33 -Hammer- wrote:
@Sated Lmao your obsessed with this build/thread. Kind of sad. And you haven't crushed me, so who knows if your opponent was even implementing the build correctly.
No chrono but you're building cannons, 200 mins down the drain. I've gone up against player that cannon at the front and rolled them. Your talk is just conjecture, move along.
;D What can I say? I don't like it when people lie. I didn't realise that a Cannon costs 200 minerals, that's some good knowledge that you have there. And it isn't exactly "200" minerals down the drain if it helps to deflect your push, especially since your push costs you far more than "200" minerals to execute. Like I said, the build I use to deflect your opening is a build that already gets a Cannon in the main and a Cannon at the natural, adding an additional Cannon to the natural isn't a big deal relative to the economic hit you take by using your opening. Two Cannons and Photon Overcharge often times crush your push with ease. My talk isn't conjecture. I've crushed this build multiple times, whereas you've yet to provide a single replay of a game were the Protoss didn't completely derp against your pressure. My counter-build is a build that I copied from TAiLS and so is something that works at a high KR GM level (albeit with the addition of a single Cannon to deflect the initial pressure), whereas your build isn't used by anyone who is even close to being that relevant. Finally, whether I was playing against you or not is irrelevant, unless you truly believe that Masters players can't execute a build order properly in the early stages of the game. I highly doubt that the people I've played are missing some magic timing to deal damage that only you can hit. You're incredibly arrogant considering that not a single notable player has backed you up. Where are these GM players you keep talking about? If you've had good feedback from GM players, I'm sure you'll be able to show some replays of a GM player using this build in GM league against a Protoss who scouts it and reacts properly EDIT: Your build is essentially like a Dark Templar rush. If the Terran scouts it, figures it out, and responds properly, they take no damage and probably win the game because the Protoss is pretty far behind. If the Terran doesn't scout it, doesn't figure it out, or doesn't respond properly, then they take a lot of damage and the game is more or less over. A Dark Templar rush is a cheese. This is a cheese. End of story. Do you even know what a "cheese" is?, I mean, I don't know about cheeses that allow Mid-Late game and, to add, you're in same terms with Hammer saying you took the build from TAiLS, the magic words are "you say". All build have pros and cons, this is not a magic all powered build, but reading the thread, is a viable build, as I said in previous posts, I feel it need to be refined, it suffers of some serious flawsd epending in opponent micro, but not on composition. A Dark Templar FE is a "cheese" that allows a mid/late game if it does enough damage to come out even. If it gets scouted though, the opponent will be ready and it won't come out even, which will put the Protoss quite far behind. The same goes for this build. It is cheesy because it relies on the opponent not scouting it; if the opponent scouts it and knows the response then they shouldn't take any damage. There are a lot of "cheesy" openings that allow for a mid/late game if they manage to deal damage equal to the cost required to execute them; the common thread between them is that the opponent getting off a scout will usually render them useless. EDIT: Funnily enough, I just beat this build without even scouting because I initially thought my opponent was Zerg. Deflected the pressure quite easily with an Immortal and some Gateway units (I opened with a standard 1 Gate FE -> Robo since I didn't scout) and then went for a 2 Base 7 Gate Immortal all-in with an old-school "bulldog" Zealot drop on all the Tanks they'd amassed by the time I attacked. Very funny stuff, I love seeing Tanks kill themselves. Seriously, this build is essentially trash, if it doesn't deal damage then any 2 base timing-attack will hit before the Terran has enough to defend xD This also represents the first time I've seen anyone on EU using this build. Gonna have to make sure I know my opponent's race when I play so that I can actually scout and respond properly lololol.
As I guessed, you don't know what a cheese is. You are talking about "cheesy" openings but never pointing to a solid definition of "cheese". With the definition you gave, you're saying that every all in is a "cheese". And, if you remember a little from BroodWar, the purpose of the "cheese" is to directly kill your oponent with the atack, that also means that you will be surely killed performing a failed cheese. I do not if you're jealous or something, because you're attacking with idiotic stuff to the author of this build. This is not the new meta-game build, this is not a panacea confronting a race with shit-ton of all ins but it is a good build, of course you'll defeat some players performing it as you surely has defeated players doing Mech, doing Sky-Terran, doing 2-Barracks agression and that does not make them "trash build", so, shut the fuck up and let us Terran players take this build, develop it and use it. I'm very interested to explore the posibilities of this idea and your idiotic comments are only more trash to retire in the search of the worthy posts.
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EPT
