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[G] TvP Hammer Build, Crushing Protoss - Page 8

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Tzela
Profile Joined December 2012
Canada48 Posts
May 02 2014 02:02 GMT
#141
lol sated must have totally lost to this build first time he saw it. hes so cheesed off that someone had more originality than him and came up with a build that no one has really seen before that he had to go out and copy some pros build to hard counter it, a build so safe its practically cheese itself. no one said it was a "solid, standard build" dude. its original and im sure its won a few matches. scouting gas first doesnt mean this particular build is coming either.
Thyrym
Profile Joined December 2013
89 Posts
May 02 2014 09:07 GMT
#142
Hi Hammer , im currently bad , i mean , diamond .

Ive faced your build once , and i will try to explain what happened in the game, since i don't have any replays :

First game : i had a plan in my mind of going zealot / stalker expand into 3gate robo ( rain glorious build ) , when i scouted some things that felt unusual , still , moved on , when the first push came in , with basic micro , i could deflect it , without spending any chrono on army , after that i had on my mind that i was somewhat ahead , afterwards , the drop came in , negate some mining time on the main , and with a stalker positioning i could deflect the natural too , i attack right away ( around 13 minutes if my mind doesn't trick me ), with +2/1 2 colossus , and blink stalkers , he dies.

This is not thrash talking to the build , its just that , with some micro and a simple macro build , the hammer build can suffer a little , again , not thrash talking or anything like that.

Bottom line , the build itself is very clever , but it need some tweaks to be more effective against Macro protoss players like me. Cheers mate !
SatedSC2
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
England3012 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-02 09:49:32
May 02 2014 09:13 GMT
#143
--- Nuked ---
Joner
Profile Joined June 2011
51 Posts
May 02 2014 12:12 GMT
#144
Sated, I'm curious how exactly those games you deflected the first pressure of this build played out. I'm not doubting you that you though. On the contrary you are probably right about this build and it is sort of cheesy. Still i love it.

However, keep in mind that when you make a response to this build, there could be ways to deviate from hammers original build and adapt to what the response you're doing. It's hard to say mainly because the people doing this build (including me) blind copies the build from this post. Thus it would be nice of you could provide some replays of games where you crush this build for further analysis and to figure out whether the faults lies with the terran that loses or in the build itself.
SatedSC2
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
England3012 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-02 13:44:35
May 02 2014 13:39 GMT
#145
--- Nuked ---
Ruiner
Profile Joined January 2011
United States14 Posts
May 02 2014 21:45 GMT
#146
I'm loving this build since I have been using it I have about an 75-80% winrate, I'm Gold, so this is a great bronze to Gold build (and up since you are using it masters league)
*Sigh*
-Hammer-
Profile Joined January 2013
Canada107 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-03 19:34:01
May 03 2014 19:33 GMT
#147
On May 02 2014 18:07 Thyrym wrote:
Hi Hammer , im currently bad , i mean , diamond .

Ive faced your build once , and i will try to explain what happened in the game, since i don't have any replays :

First game : i had a plan in my mind of going zealot / stalker expand into 3gate robo ( rain glorious build ) , when i scouted some things that felt unusual , still , moved on , when the first push came in , with basic micro , i could deflect it , without spending any chrono on army , after that i had on my mind that i was somewhat ahead , afterwards , the drop came in , negate some mining time on the main , and with a stalker positioning i could deflect the natural too , i attack right away ( around 13 minutes if my mind doesn't trick me ), with +2/1 2 colossus , and blink stalkers , he dies.

This is not thrash talking to the build , its just that , with some micro and a simple macro build , the hammer build can suffer a little , again , not thrash talking or anything like that.

Bottom line , the build itself is very clever , but it need some tweaks to be more effective against Macro protoss players like me. Cheers mate !

Thanks. I'm always making small adjustments to improve the build. This guide is just a template to help players understand the concept, timings etcetera. Thanks for your feedback

On May 03 2014 06:45 Ruiner wrote:
I'm loving this build since I have been using it I have about an 75-80% winrate, I'm Gold, so this is a great bronze to Gold build (and up since you are using it masters league)

Awesome, that's great to hear. It's always nice to get a few solid go-to builds. Let me know if you want any suggestions to improving your TvZ or TvT. You're welcome to add me in game Hammer#1909 if you have some quick questions. Cheers.
Grand Master Terran
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 04 2014 01:12 GMT
#148
It looks good for a surprise, a good fit for a game two of a Bo3 when you win the first. Other than that, too gimmicky, too reliant on throwing the protoss off with the harass. Mine drops after that marauder/mine poke is a big clue-in that the Protoss should 2base allin. You've spent this much time on harassy units and there's nothing meaty up yet to challenge a standard protoss midgame allin. The replays I saw were as much the opponent blundering in the face of weird tactics as they were a build asset, and mannn some of those builds.

It doesn't rise to the level of a [G] Guide for this forum without a few wins against opponents that shrug off the harass (play more if you don't have these yet) and losses with analysis.
The action begins with a quick marauder/widow mine timing, transitions into widow mine drop/s, and finishes with a high supply mech timing push. The build is very safe, and counters almost all early Protoss aggression. As the game progresses, the main composition is Tank/BF Hellbat/Viking/Medivac/Ghost, although it can be changed to counter when necessary (ie; Blink Stalker = Marauders emphasis, air Protoss = Thor/Viking emphasis).

You are so very far from demonstrating its safe and counters much at all.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
zalem95
Profile Joined January 2011
Peru184 Posts
May 04 2014 02:11 GMT
#149
Works good for me, Im currently at diamond - I've been in diamond since 2010 though- xD
nothing special
Joner
Profile Joined June 2011
51 Posts
May 04 2014 13:36 GMT
#150
On May 04 2014 10:12 Danglars wrote:
It looks good for a surprise, a good fit for a game two of a Bo3 when you win the first. Other than that, too gimmicky, too reliant on throwing the protoss off with the harass. Mine drops after that marauder/mine poke is a big clue-in that the Protoss should 2base allin. You've spent this much time on harassy units and there's nothing meaty up yet to challenge a standard protoss midgame allin. The replays I saw were as much the opponent blundering in the face of weird tactics as they were a build asset, and mannn some of those builds.

It doesn't rise to the level of a [G] Guide for this forum without a few wins against opponents that shrug off the harass (play more if you don't have these yet) and losses with analysis.
Show nested quote +
The action begins with a quick marauder/widow mine timing, transitions into widow mine drop/s, and finishes with a high supply mech timing push. The build is very safe, and counters almost all early Protoss aggression. As the game progresses, the main composition is Tank/BF Hellbat/Viking/Medivac/Ghost, although it can be changed to counter when necessary (ie; Blink Stalker = Marauders emphasis, air Protoss = Thor/Viking emphasis).

You are so very far from demonstrating its safe and counters much at all.

After playing with this build for some time now I'd have to say you are simply wrong. The opener is actually quite strong and good againsta variety of protoss openers and it transitions very well into bio. Thus, it is not simply a gimmicky build that solely relies on surprise.
The thing i like the most about this build is that it takes all the control away from the protoss right from the start. The mine drop is just icing on the cake while the real power lies with the initial push.

Sated claims he can hold it off easily and perhaps that is the case with the current build He is using but it doesn't apply to all openers.

The biggest weakness of this build is probably that it's so easily scouted so IF there is an extremely good counter to this build then the opener would have to tweaked (build a marine) to disguise it more.

I'm diamond league with a current 71% win ratio TvP btw (used to be 40% with reaper opener).
SatedSC2
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
England3012 Posts
May 04 2014 13:43 GMT
#151
--- Nuked ---
Joner
Profile Joined June 2011
51 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-04 15:35:08
May 04 2014 14:05 GMT
#152
On May 04 2014 22:43 SatedSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2014 22:36 Joner wrote:
On May 04 2014 10:12 Danglars wrote:
It looks good for a surprise, a good fit for a game two of a Bo3 when you win the first. Other than that, too gimmicky, too reliant on throwing the protoss off with the harass. Mine drops after that marauder/mine poke is a big clue-in that the Protoss should 2base allin. You've spent this much time on harassy units and there's nothing meaty up yet to challenge a standard protoss midgame allin. The replays I saw were as much the opponent blundering in the face of weird tactics as they were a build asset, and mannn some of those builds.

It doesn't rise to the level of a [G] Guide for this forum without a few wins against opponents that shrug off the harass (play more if you don't have these yet) and losses with analysis.
The action begins with a quick marauder/widow mine timing, transitions into widow mine drop/s, and finishes with a high supply mech timing push. The build is very safe, and counters almost all early Protoss aggression. As the game progresses, the main composition is Tank/BF Hellbat/Viking/Medivac/Ghost, although it can be changed to counter when necessary (ie; Blink Stalker = Marauders emphasis, air Protoss = Thor/Viking emphasis).

You are so very far from demonstrating its safe and counters much at all.

After playing with this build for some time now I'd have to say you are simply wrong. The opener is actually quite strong and good againsta variety of protoss openers and it transitions very well into bio. Thus, it is not simply a gimmicky build that solely relies on surprise.
The thing i like the most about this build is that it takes all the control away from the protoss right from the start. The mine drop is just icing on the cake while the real power lies with the initial push.

Sated claims he can hold it off easily and perhaps that is the case with the current build He is using but it doesn't apply to all openers.

The biggest weakness of this build is probably that it's so easily scouted so IF there is an extremely good counter to this build then the opener would have to tweaked (build a marine) to disguise it more.

I'm diamond league with a current 71% win ratio TvP btw (used to be 40% with reaper opener).

I change the opening that I use if I scout this build order being used. My normal build wouldn't do well against this because my normal build is set-up to deal with standard Bio timing-attacks and not a timing-attack that hits much earlier. A lot of Protoss openings don't deal with early aggression well because they're very macro focused and are essentially reliant on Photon Overcharge to get them through early pressure. Frankly, if a Protoss player doesn't alter their build when they scout this opening then they're playing badly and you shouldn't take games against them as evidence that this build is good, only as evidence that failing to react to scouting is bad


I've played alot of protoss who have altered their openers.I can't go into every game in detail but some answers with a fast robo and immortal which usually saves them their exp and it seems like a decent respons. Although, I usually end up winning in the mid game regardless whether the mine drop does any dmg or not.
Some throw up a bunch of gates and go all in on me and that sure doesn't work. Neither does immortal gate pushes.
I faced 1 base with 4 oracles and gateway all in and that killed me but it could have been held off had i responded more adequately.
I died to DTs once as well and i think that could be something this build is weak against.

Other than that, im having some pretty good success with this build and the more i play with it the more convinced i become that this could very well be "standard" build or "viable" build (i.e. not cheese). It is too early to say though but i encourage every terran in diamond or below ( cant speak for above as its above my league) to start doing this build. Only then when more people start using it will we know for sure just how strong/weak this build is.

Note: I'm not actually doing this exact build. Im using the opener and the widow mine drop. After that i transition into bio, research stim from my already made techlab, get +1 from my already made ebay and pump marines, mines and medivacs from a naked starport.
Gullis
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden740 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-15 23:48:51
May 15 2014 23:44 GMT
#153
Just wanted to sat that this builds work really well for me in diamond. From being my weakest 40% matchup it is now my strongest (70%) matchup (winratewise). I do however a normal 1 racks reaper expand in to factory starport with some marine/mine/medivac harras.
I have won all of my standard tvps with the push shortly after 14m (except for a few, but they died to a follow up attack).
I am curious, what are the correct response from the protoss to the deal with the 14-15m push?
I would rather eat than see my children starve.
-Hammer-
Profile Joined January 2013
Canada107 Posts
May 20 2014 17:42 GMT
#154
On May 16 2014 08:44 Gullis wrote:
Just wanted to sat that this builds work really well for me in diamond. From being my weakest 40% matchup it is now my strongest (70%) matchup (winratewise). I do however a normal 1 racks reaper expand in to factory starport with some marine/mine/medivac harras.
I have won all of my standard tvps with the push shortly after 14m (except for a few, but they died to a follow up attack).
I am curious, what are the correct response from the protoss to the deal with the 14-15m push?

It sounds like your opening is quite different, are you referring to the composition and timing attack for your use? Glad it's improving your w/l ration so much! There are a few responses that Protoss can do to try and deal with the 14/15 timing, but even then it was to be well controlled and will be close.
Grand Master Terran
eightym
Profile Joined May 2011
United States76 Posts
May 23 2014 04:29 GMT
#155
I wrote this to a diamond terran but I thought I'd post it here:

I've been using variations of the Hammer build over the past month with a 59% win rate (top diamond). Most of the time I do very significant damage with the first attack. The key things are to: target units and pylons (especially artosis) with the marauders at (if possible) the main, burrow mine by mineral line, ignore MSC while keep rallying/microing marauders/mine, pull back when cannon is activated (use this time to kill natural if possible; a bunker can be useful), then go back in.

If they go double gas I rally my second mine to my minerals–unless I find him spending gas on something other than a stargate. I don't build engineering bay unless something is fishy (no evidence of gas spending or oracle).

There's the possibility he scouts you and knows how to react, but that's actually sadly uncommon at diamond. But even then it can be effective if played properly (macro, defend, harass, then attack).

If the first attack was effective, you can transition into almost anything. You can immediately start stim on the TL and go for a stim +1 timing or do the usual 15min mech push (what I like to do). If I'm feeling frisky and I think they're going robo units then I'll go mass banshees with some bio, otherwise maybe mass mines with fast burrow and armor upgrade. It all depends on their tech tree and how much damage the first attack did.

It's a great strategy for free wins on ladder. Thank you Hammer. I don't know how much longer this strategy will be effective but I'm happy with it now.
-Hammer-
Profile Joined January 2013
Canada107 Posts
May 26 2014 16:24 GMT
#156
On May 23 2014 13:29 eightym wrote:
I wrote this to a diamond terran but I thought I'd post it here:

I've been using variations of the Hammer build over the past month with a 59% win rate (top diamond). Most of the time I do very significant damage with the first attack. The key things are to: target units and pylons (especially artosis) with the marauders at (if possible) the main, burrow mine by mineral line, ignore MSC while keep rallying/microing marauders/mine, pull back when cannon is activated (use this time to kill natural if possible; a bunker can be useful), then go back in.

If they go double gas I rally my second mine to my minerals–unless I find him spending gas on something other than a stargate. I don't build engineering bay unless something is fishy (no evidence of gas spending or oracle).

There's the possibility he scouts you and knows how to react, but that's actually sadly uncommon at diamond. But even then it can be effective if played properly (macro, defend, harass, then attack).

If the first attack was effective, you can transition into almost anything. You can immediately start stim on the TL and go for a stim +1 timing or do the usual 15min mech push (what I like to do). If I'm feeling frisky and I think they're going robo units then I'll go mass banshees with some bio, otherwise maybe mass mines with fast burrow and armor upgrade. It all depends on their tech tree and how much damage the first attack did.

It's a great strategy for free wins on ladder. Thank you Hammer. I don't know how much longer this strategy will be effective but I'm happy with it now.

Great to hear! Thanks for your thorough feedback, it's nice to know players are utilizing the build effectively.
Grand Master Terran
-Hammer-
Profile Joined January 2013
Canada107 Posts
June 27 2014 18:55 GMT
#157
There have been some important, and subtle changes to the build, and subsequently this guide. Notable changes are a quick 3rd OC in base when scouting Protoss has expanded (with the initial pressure). The drop harass now utilizes widow mines, or hellions/hellbats. Transitional changes after mid-game include a faster secured third and cloak banshee integration.

Please let me know if you have any questions in regards to the updates. Cheers!
Grand Master Terran
Blargle
Profile Joined January 2012
United States9 Posts
June 29 2014 19:44 GMT
#158
Hey yo haven't checked out the replays because I'm on mobile, but the build itself doesn't really say when to start adding in star port, armory or gasses. Is there a general time for this or is it all situational? The build however looks really fun and I can't wait to start practicing it.
It takes hard work, determination, and the heart of a champion to become great. Believe in yourself and create your own destiny. Don't fear failure.
Womec
Profile Joined June 2014
7 Posts
June 30 2014 01:35 GMT
#159
Thanks Hammer:

http://www.twitch.tv/attzp/b/542961472


@ 4:00:00 Matchpoint
Thyrym
Profile Joined December 2013
89 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-30 05:04:06
June 30 2014 05:03 GMT
#160
[ rewriting it ]
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