EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 261
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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mantequilla
Turkey781 Posts
If we can: On Reclamation link against when I'm P and my ally is P-T, and opponent is ZT, how should I react when we scout 10 pool + some kind of early marines (2 rax etc) ? | ||
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Wiiizzzzzz
France4 Posts
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
On May 08 2014 18:56 mantequilla wrote: First, can we ask 2v2 questions here? If we can: On Reclamation link against when I'm P and my ally is P-T, and opponent is ZT, how should I react when we scout 10 pool + some kind of early marines (2 rax etc) ? The ZT combo in 2s is the strongest. You need to wall-in and in some instances forge first with protoss. Just be careful with speedlings+helions into banshees transitions. In most situations against ZT, it's about surviving the inevitable rush (lings+helions or lings+rines or lings+helions+banshees) and then transition to some tech. I usually go for phoenix and later void rays plus HT (air toss) against TZ because you know Z is going to get mutas to let the Terran macro like there's no tomorrow. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On May 09 2014 00:41 FreeZEternal wrote: The ZT combo in 2s is the strongest. You need to wall-in and in some instances forge first with protoss. Just be careful with speedlings+helions into banshees transitions. In most situations against ZT, it's about surviving the inevitable rush (lings+helions or lings+rines or lings+helions+banshees) and then transition to some tech. I usually go for phoenix and later void rays plus HT (air toss) against TZ because you know Z is going to get mutas to let the Terran macro like there's no tomorrow. I like to open oracle against that combo, as a terran rushing hellions will have no defense (or a super fast engi bay and turret which will hurt his rush) and the zerg can't protect him either. If he does have the turret, the oracle can kill lings and hellions pretty quick and help hold. If he's doing the marine rush, the same is pretty true overall, you just have to be careful. Either way, forcefields are king. Note that in 2v2's, sometimes players will be dumb and will attack independently of each other, so you shouldn't be too greedy with tech or a super early pool can get you rushing to oracle, but against good teams they'll wait for each other to be ready and hit a timing together rather than ling rush you and have the hellions done 2-3 minutes later. | ||
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Gamlet
Ukraine336 Posts
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mantequilla
Turkey781 Posts
On May 09 2014 05:07 Whitewing wrote: I like to open oracle against that combo, as a terran rushing hellions will have no defense (or a super fast engi bay and turret which will hurt his rush) and the zerg can't protect him either. If he does have the turret, the oracle can kill lings and hellions pretty quick and help hold. If he's doing the marine rush, the same is pretty true overall, you just have to be careful. Either way, forcefields are king. Note that in 2v2's, sometimes players will be dumb and will attack independently of each other, so you shouldn't be too greedy with tech or a super early pool can get you rushing to oracle, but against good teams they'll wait for each other to be ready and hit a timing together rather than ling rush you and have the hellions done 2-3 minutes later. Would you proxy the oracle, or go for a super fast in base stargate (maybe even skip warpgate since it won't be ready when initial rush hits) ? | ||
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Shagrathsc
United States12 Posts
In a PvZ match, what is the time a Protoss can say the zerg's 3rd is late in order to quit a 4 gate pressure after 1gate FE? Also, what is the best thing to do in this case? You are with 4 gates and 1 gas at home, ready to warp in rounds of 4 zealots to kill the 3rd, but there is no 3rd. Should I attack the natural anyways or take my gases and go for a immortal sentry all in? Also, yesterday I was doing this strat and the zerg had the 3rd, which I forced a cancel. I saw he was making just speedlings so I continued to warp in zealots nonstop, but he started to make tons of queens that at some point zealots+msc was not enough to break his natural. Long story short, I was attacked by ling/hydra minutes later from a 2base Zerg and lost. So the question is: what should I look for in order to understand it is time to stop the pressure and follow up with a tech? Thanks in advance. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On May 10 2014 04:49 Shagrathsc wrote: Hi. Mid-diamond toss here. In a PvZ match, what is the time a Protoss can say the zerg's 3rd is late in order to quit a 4 gate pressure after 1gate FE? Also, what is the best thing to do in this case? You are with 4 gates and 1 gas at home, ready to warp in rounds of 4 zealots to kill the 3rd, but there is no 3rd. Should I attack the natural anyways or take my gases and go for a immortal sentry all in? Also, yesterday I was doing this strat and the zerg had the 3rd, which I forced a cancel. I saw he was making just speedlings so I continued to warp in zealots nonstop, but he started to make tons of queens that at some point zealots+msc was not enough to break his natural. Long story short, I was attacked by ling/hydra minutes later from a 2base Zerg and lost. So the question is: what should I look for in order to understand it is time to stop the pressure and follow up with a tech? Thanks in advance. Don't try to break 2 base Zerg. It's just not worthwhile. | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
On May 10 2014 00:01 mantequilla wrote: Would you proxy the oracle, or go for a super fast in base stargate (maybe even skip warpgate since it won't be ready when initial rush hits) ? Trust me, if you open oracle without getting ready for the push they are doing, you will die or your partner will die. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
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phyren
United States1067 Posts
On May 10 2014 05:30 DinoMight wrote: Don't try to break 2 base Zerg. It's just not worthwhile. This is incomplete. Their third is late enough that you cant pressure if they go for 2 base roaches before expand. You can usually tell this based on scouting gasses taken in their main before pool is finished or not. It is basically always going to be a good idea to at least poke in, even if the zerg is sticking to 2 bases. The msc can't really be caught. The zealots can only be caught by speedlings, and they can trade reasonably against speedings alone. Keep in mind that the 2 base production of zerg is very low compared to yours. If they are making enough speedlings to deal with your 4 gate zealot with msc, then they have a terrible economy behind it. You need to be poking with the zealots even against a 2 base zerg in order to scout them. If they are not making roaches, this means they have gone fast lair and will be rushing out something like mutas or swarm host most often. In any case, you need to see what that tech is in order to defend it, because once you've defended it you basically win. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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Shagrathsc
United States12 Posts
I think the problem of just scouting at 5 min mark is that the Zerg can be going for a quick zergling speed and then delay his third to around 6-6:30 minute mark. So in that case when you attack with your first warp in of zealots, the 3rd will be on the way, and you can easily force a cancel. In my experience, I already won and lost games after this. Sometimes the zerg makes too many lings too hold the natural, and then wins after some minutes with roach/hydra. Sometimes I can just break into his natural with bunch of zealots because he doesn't micro the speedlings. So I am confused on what to do in that scenario. I always thought that I should continue to warp in zealots if he stays on speedlings, with no roaches. But it seems to be difficult to break his natural even in that case, and then I spent too many resources in zealots and it becomes difficult to transition in that point, and I lose. | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On May 10 2014 10:51 Shagrathsc wrote: Thanks for all answers. I think the problem of just scouting at 5 min mark is that the Zerg can be going for a quick zergling speed and then delay his third to around 6-6:30 minute mark. So in that case when you attack with your first warp in of zealots, the 3rd will be on the way, and you can easily force a cancel. In my experience, I already won and lost games after this. Sometimes the zerg makes too many lings too hold the natural, and then wins after some minutes with roach/hydra. Sometimes I can just break into his natural with bunch of zealots because he doesn't micro the speedlings. So I am confused on what to do in that scenario. I always thought that I should continue to warp in zealots if he stays on speedlings, with no roaches. But it seems to be difficult to break his natural even in that case, and then I spent too many resources in zealots and it becomes difficult to transition in that point, and I lose. If the Zerg is making a late third, there should be no reason for zealot warpgate pressure to work unless they're just plain awful. Most of the time the answer to this is just making ~40 speedlings, which isn't a huge deal in these cases and WILL deflect zealot pressure. They're not low on drone saturation, they aren't behind on tech; they're only behind on the speed of their third. You can still do it to get some scouting info and MAKE SURE the Zerg has to respond by making units (although this timing generally alligns with Zerg making units anyway). But don't expect anything to happen against decent players. It really shouldn't. On May 10 2014 06:01 DinoMight wrote: How do you play against Swarm Hosts on Overgrowth where they can attack/defend any base from the middle and you can't blink into the main? Your best bet for defeating swarm hosts is army pressure (usually blink/colossus) on one side to threaten the gold/pocket 4th while dropping a lot in the main or sending zealot runbys into the natural. You can also do it vice versa, but it's not NEARLY as effective. | ||
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On May 10 2014 04:49 Shagrathsc wrote: Hi. Mid-diamond toss here. In a PvZ match, what is the time a Protoss can say the zerg's 3rd is late in order to quit a 4 gate pressure after 1gate FE? Also, what is the best thing to do in this case? You are with 4 gates and 1 gas at home, ready to warp in rounds of 4 zealots to kill the 3rd, but there is no 3rd. Should I attack the natural anyways or take my gases and go for a immortal sentry all in? Also, yesterday I was doing this strat and the zerg had the 3rd, which I forced a cancel. I saw he was making just speedlings so I continued to warp in zealots nonstop, but he started to make tons of queens that at some point zealots+msc was not enough to break his natural. Long story short, I was attacked by ling/hydra minutes later from a 2base Zerg and lost. So the question is: what should I look for in order to understand it is time to stop the pressure and follow up with a tech? Thanks in advance. You may wanna consider scouting with a probe when doing this build. San himself sends a scout probe fairly often... the first one after building his cybercore iirc. A while ago I asked Naniwa on his stream why he'd go gateway expand but then get a forge and stargate instead of doing any sort of gateway pressure, and he told me he liked the build because it's very versatile and said forge + stargate was the right transition when you scout no third. He did say the build wasn't quite mapped out yet though. However, it's not like there was any major development in his strategy after that because of his retirement, so I'd take his word. | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On May 12 2014 11:38 FreeZEternal wrote: Ugh, I am losing my mind. I keep dying after killing the zerg third with 4 gate pressure. After killing their 3rd the zerg gets a lot of lings/roaches so I recall back. The zerg trades while taking their third again. After that it's all downhill... Another game after killing the third I get overwhelmed by hydras... or sometimes a two base SH... Leave a zealot at the third when you recall then  . You probably also need to start your followup tech (usually a robo) earlier too. Shoot us a replay to look at so we can pinpoint exactly what the problem is. | ||
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