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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On April 01 2014 21:05 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2014 07:12 vhapter wrote:On April 01 2014 06:42 Aldo_EU wrote:On March 31 2014 23:41 vhapter wrote:On March 31 2014 16:02 SC2John wrote:
Sidenote: I don't think charge alongside voidray/colossus is very good unless you are putting on a lot of multi-pronged aggression via warp prism/mass chargelot warpins, and army pressure + recall. And again, it's very susceptible to timings. Colossus/voidray is just greedy. I don't know where you got this idea that voidray colossus is so vulnerable. It's the fastest way to get a deathball and allows for a safer and faster third than phoenix colossus imo. Instead of getting phoenixes for harassment, you get voidrays for defense. Voidray/colossus dies both to roach/hydra timings (in all variations - more roaches, more hydras, even pure roach is a problem) and especially mutas. Way to go straw man! First, you can get the same colossus count as a phoenix colossus build. You can also get as many zealots as a phoenix colossus build. Add a few voidrays to make your army stronger since you're not going phoenix. So according to your logic, the build I'm talking about dies to roach/hydra or pure roach, but if we take a few voidrays away and give the same player 5 phoenix, he can suddenly hold off these timings. Because phoenixes are better defensively than voidrays, right? Suuuuuure. And how are mutas even a problem? You can scout tons of times with 3 sentries and have an observer at your opponent's rally point. For the most part, sending an oracle to check the back of the zerg's mineral line and another one to check the front of his natural and main is enough to scout his entire tech tree. Then you add another stargate at about 10 minutes into the game and either pump voidrays faster or phoenixes if you scout mutas rather than ground units. I always thought that the safety-element of Phoenix openings comes from slowing down the Zerg. You can pick off Overlords, Queens and Drones whilst also forcing Spores to be placed down. This will slow down any attempt by the Zerg to go for a Roach/Hydra timing, which will give you more time to get out additional Colossi/Gateway units. Right..? I mean, I don't personally use Phoenix openings (I use a modified version of the build John just posted), but that's the way I've always viewed Phoenix openings as working... Indeed, I use the exact phoenix build John was talking about and for the reasons you state and it still works just as it always has. The last thing you want to do against Zerg is allow them to cut corners or drone like crazy and that build is a reasonable way of forcing them into a more defensive position. If they are lazy with where they place their overlords around their base, they're going to get punished for it. Likewise with queens, if they don't take care of the queens, they're going to lose them. They're forced to get 1-2 spores per base so it cuts into both their larva and worker count. You end up being able to slow them down quite a bit while keeping totally safe as you transition into stalker/collosus/sentry with a third. It's a nice stable build that is great for learning the game with, and acts as a great platform to transition into a number of other compositions. My favourite thing is that it allows a certain degree of security against muta switches as long as the 4-5 phoenixes are kept alive because you can build up to that much more comfortable number of phoenixes so that you can actually face mutas at least a minute or two faster, which is a huge deal against muta switches since it usually comes down to whether that muta switch can cripple you before you can get a response out.
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To all phoenix users:
What do you generally do if zerg just builds a few corruptors to counter your 4-5 phoenix, and then goes mass muta?
And overall: is there any decent, solid response to corruptor/muta play?
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On April 04 2014 04:22 insitelol wrote:
To all phoenix users:
What do you generally do if zerg just builds a few corruptors to counter your 4-5 phoenix, and then goes mass muta?
And overall: is there any decent, solid response to corruptor/muta play?
The best thing to do against Muta is to just attack him as soon as you suspect he's going Muta. Muta are really good at keeping you pinned in your base and taking out probes but they suck at direct engagements unless he already has like 48 of them. Stalkers and Archons are pretty bad at chasing Muta around but they can kill them pretty well if you take the fight to him. I've been going Robo almost every PvZ and haven't lost to Muta in a REALLY long time because I hit before he can get critical mass and he's forced to defend with them.
If you're already on Stargate tech, Void Rays do very well against Corruptors. Void Ray + Blink Stalkers + your few Phoenixes to chase around the Muta should work well.
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I'm looking for kind of an exact buildorder of the phoenix into 3 base Protoss opener verse Zerg.
Gas timings, msc timing, what to scout for/respond, robo start time, adding gates.
I kinda wing it all the time. I hope Zest shows me how to do it well, but I thought you guys could maybe help me allong the way :-)!
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On April 04 2014 17:44 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2014 04:22 insitelol wrote:
To all phoenix users:
What do you generally do if zerg just builds a few corruptors to counter your 4-5 phoenix, and then goes mass muta?
And overall: is there any decent, solid response to corruptor/muta play? Keep making Phoenixes, get Phoenix range, get upgrades. That's what HerO seems to do vs. Muta/Corruptor on his stream; he just out-micros the Zerg with Phoenixes whilst keeping Stalkers/Templar/Cannons near his mineral lines to prevent Mutalisks from destroying them.
Lol, relying on HerO level micro to win games is a sure way to lose 
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Austria24417 Posts
On April 05 2014 00:04 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2014 22:45 DinoMight wrote:On April 04 2014 17:44 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 04 2014 04:22 insitelol wrote:
To all phoenix users:
What do you generally do if zerg just builds a few corruptors to counter your 4-5 phoenix, and then goes mass muta?
And overall: is there any decent, solid response to corruptor/muta play? Keep making Phoenixes, get Phoenix range, get upgrades. That's what HerO seems to do vs. Muta/Corruptor on his stream; he just out-micros the Zerg with Phoenixes whilst keeping Stalkers/Templar/Cannons near his mineral lines to prevent Mutalisks from destroying them. Lol, relying on HerO level micro to win games is a sure way to lose Keeping Phoenixes out-of-range of units that they out-range isn't really difficult micro if you ask me.
Against corruptors? It is...
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On April 05 2014 00:04 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2014 22:45 DinoMight wrote:On April 04 2014 17:44 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 04 2014 04:22 insitelol wrote:
To all phoenix users:
What do you generally do if zerg just builds a few corruptors to counter your 4-5 phoenix, and then goes mass muta?
And overall: is there any decent, solid response to corruptor/muta play? Keep making Phoenixes, get Phoenix range, get upgrades. That's what HerO seems to do vs. Muta/Corruptor on his stream; he just out-micros the Zerg with Phoenixes whilst keeping Stalkers/Templar/Cannons near his mineral lines to prevent Mutalisks from destroying them. Lol, relying on HerO level micro to win games is a sure way to lose Keeping Phoenixes out-of-range of units that they out-range isn't really difficult micro if you ask me.
It's quite difficult to do well against any number of Corruptors.
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On April 05 2014 01:17 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2014 00:04 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 04 2014 22:45 DinoMight wrote:On April 04 2014 17:44 SatedSC2 wrote:On April 04 2014 04:22 insitelol wrote:
To all phoenix users:
What do you generally do if zerg just builds a few corruptors to counter your 4-5 phoenix, and then goes mass muta?
And overall: is there any decent, solid response to corruptor/muta play? Keep making Phoenixes, get Phoenix range, get upgrades. That's what HerO seems to do vs. Muta/Corruptor on his stream; he just out-micros the Zerg with Phoenixes whilst keeping Stalkers/Templar/Cannons near his mineral lines to prevent Mutalisks from destroying them. Lol, relying on HerO level micro to win games is a sure way to lose Keeping Phoenixes out-of-range of units that they out-range isn't really difficult micro if you ask me. It's quite difficult to do well against any number of Corruptors.
a lot of zergs don't really know how to micro muta-corruptor. some zergs just try to engage and chase the phoenix with the corruptor/muta flock, which a good protoss can outmicro with mass phoenix + air attack upgrades. a good zerg will be thinking two steps ahead and using the corruptors to screen phoenix rather than engage them. the whole point of corruptors is commanding the position of the battle, if you let protoss dictate where your corruptors go then it's pointless. a good example is nerchio vs mc in WCS EU. he almost threw the game for other reasons, but it wasn't because of his muta/corruptor micro (more about the timing of his transitions), and MC was definitely using stalker/cannon/templar to defend his mineral lines. nerchio just kept killing them and mining the map.
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I have a huge issue with my PvT: I get absolutely RAPED by EMP whenever I go Templar. It's a combination of a few things but I think the biggest issue is that the Terran army is very mobile and HT are very slow - so I have to have a nice pre-spread set up, but then the T can just go elsewhere and attack and I have to box my Templar and tell them all to move so they can make themselves useful... and then I get EMPed...
The whole spreading Templar on the map thing seems good but usually what happens is that I'll spread them out too far from each other and then I just don't have enough storm in the one area he attacks with everything in.
Lost a game the other day where I had 12 full health HT and didn't get a single storm off. It's really bad.
What do you guys do? Do you try to feedback the ghosts? do you run your Templar away and Blink on the Ghosts? Do you just spread really well and eat the EMPs?
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On April 09 2014 01:58 DinoMight wrote:
I have a huge issue with my PvT: I get absolutely RAPED by EMP whenever I go Templar. It's a combination of a few things but I think the biggest issue is that the Terran army is very mobile and HT are very slow - so I have to have a nice pre-spread set up, but then the T can just go elsewhere and attack and I have to box my Templar and tell them all to move so they can make themselves useful... and then I get EMPed...
The whole spreading Templar on the map thing seems good but usually what happens is that I'll spread them out too far from each other and then I just don't have enough storm in the one area he attacks with everything in.
Lost a game the other day where I had 12 full health HT and didn't get a single storm off. It's really bad.
What do you guys do? Do you try to feedback the ghosts? do you run your Templar away and Blink on the Ghosts? Do you just spread really well and eat the EMPs?
It's just practice really. You should continually move your high templars so that they both cover the whole map but are also concentrated in the area close to your opponent's army. Map awareness is fundamental.
You usually wanna go for the feedback on the ghosts. Feedback is especially effective when there are many ghosts because it has no cooldown, so you can use shift click and kill up to 4 of them in no time. However it's always efficient. Even if the ghosts have low energy it's still good because they will be left with 0 energy so they won't be able to snipe the HT.
The PvT lategame is based on the fact that although you might lose a lot of hts, you just need to trade decently with ghosts until the terran player makes THE mistake and loses a big chunk of his army to storms, and only then you can win the engagement.
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United States4883 Posts
On April 09 2014 02:12 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2014 01:58 DinoMight wrote:
I have a huge issue with my PvT: I get absolutely RAPED by EMP whenever I go Templar. It's a combination of a few things but I think the biggest issue is that the Terran army is very mobile and HT are very slow - so I have to have a nice pre-spread set up, but then the T can just go elsewhere and attack and I have to box my Templar and tell them all to move so they can make themselves useful... and then I get EMPed...
The whole spreading Templar on the map thing seems good but usually what happens is that I'll spread them out too far from each other and then I just don't have enough storm in the one area he attacks with everything in.
Lost a game the other day where I had 12 full health HT and didn't get a single storm off. It's really bad.
What do you guys do? Do you try to feedback the ghosts? do you run your Templar away and Blink on the Ghosts? Do you just spread really well and eat the EMPs? It's just practice really. You should continually move your high templars so that they both cover the whole map but are also concentrated in the area close to your opponent's army. Map awareness is fundamental. You usually wanna go for the feedback on the ghosts. Feedback is especially effective when there are many ghosts because it has no cooldown, so you can use shift click and kill up to 4 of them in no time. However it's always efficient. Even if the ghosts have low energy it's still good because they will be left with 0 energy so they won't be able to snipe the HT.
Just to add to this:
1) Almost always the Terran is leading with ghosts to snipe templar. This is what makes templar flanks so powerful; the ghosts can't be in more than one place at once.
2) A good technique is to also just send one HT towards his army at once and either get 1-2 feedbacks on ghosts (if you kill them, it's an even trade) or a storm (the outer radius of storm is a little bit bigger range than snipe/EMP). In conjunction with templar flanks, you should be able to overwhelm your opponent and get at least 2-3 really good storms off.
3) A really good technique to use before ghosts are out is to attack move into his army, then retreat behind storms once charge has worn off. See my game analysis of Liquid HerO vs. TaeJa.
The PvT lategame is based on the fact that although you might lose a lot of hts, you just need to trade decently with ghosts until the terran player makes THE mistake and loses a big chunk of his army to storms, and only then you can win the engagement.
This CANNOT be emphasized enough. Never ever ever engage into the maxed Terran army unless you get 2-3 good storms in or you're a full upgrade ahead. Otherwise you will get absolutely shredded by EMP, which does thousands of damage instantly.
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Well, just my 2 cents.
In macro PvT i tend to build up a balanced unit comp and never ever (only if i'm far ahead, etc) engage a bioball w/o at least 4 colosi. During engagements i never chase a terran but instead force him to attack me with blink-stalker or single templar pokes,etc. The most common terran "trick", as it was mentioned, is to send ghosts (cloaked or not) towards your army to land emps, but the thing is (and it's kinda obvious) that colossi outrange them, so what i do is attack that ghost force with colosi alone while retreating with the rest of the army, so i got my HT fully protected. What terran usualy do is retreating with his ghosts and sending out vikings so i use stalkers and so on...
That doesn't exclude flanking with HT, spreading them across the map, warp prism play etc.
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United States4883 Posts
On April 09 2014 16:56 insitelol wrote:
Well, just my 2 cents.
In macro PvT i tend to build up a balanced unit comp and never ever (only if i'm far ahead, etc) engage a bioball w/o at least 4 colosi. During engagements i never chase a terran but instead force him to attack me with blink-stalker or single templar pokes,etc. The most common terran "trick", as it was mentioned, is to send ghosts (cloaked or not) towards your army to land emps, but the thing is (and it's kinda obvious) that colossi outrange them, so what i do is attack that ghost force with colosi alone while retreating with the rest of the army, so i got my HT fully protected. What terran usualy do is retreating with his ghosts and sending out vikings so i use stalkers and so on...
That doesn't exclude flanking with HT, spreading them across the map, warp prism play etc.
It's actually really difficult and really dangerous to micro colossus vs. ghosts. Really good players will use the vikings to clear out airspace and approach at a different angle as the ghosts. Most of the time it's just better to poke with stalkers in front and blink back if necessary.
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Russian Federation16 Posts
Does anyone use tempests to zone out ghosts/vikings? It looks strange, but I'll give it a try definitely. Mass tempest is must have in late PvP and PvZ, it may be something that could swing the balance in PvT lategame as well.
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United States4883 Posts
On April 09 2014 20:15 Aldo_EU wrote:
Does anyone use tempests to zone out ghosts/vikings? It looks strange, but I'll give it a try definitely. Mass tempest is must have in late PvP and PvZ, it may be something that could swing the balance in PvT lategame as well.
To be honest, I don't like adding more than 4-5. Any more than that doesn't significantly boost your army power and overall just makes you immobile as well as weaker. The only time you're ever going to all the way to mass tempests/cannons/templar is when your opponent has time to make a BC/ghost/raven army...but obviously, that doesn't happen often (nor should it if you're playing correctly).
The idea is that it's basically impossible to engage directly into the Terran army, but if you can scare them with the threat of storms and storm flanks while picking off units with tempests, you slowly get ahead. I think it's more of a defensive composition than an aggressive composition; it's meant to hold your ground on a pivotal 4th or 5th base.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 09 2014 20:25 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2014 20:15 Aldo_EU wrote:
Does anyone use tempests to zone out ghosts/vikings? It looks strange, but I'll give it a try definitely. Mass tempest is must have in late PvP and PvZ, it may be something that could swing the balance in PvT lategame as well. To be honest, I don't like adding more than 4-5. Any more than that doesn't significantly boost your army power and overall just makes you immobile as well as weaker. The only time you're ever going to all the way to mass tempests/cannons/templar is when your opponent has time to make a BC/ghost/raven army...but obviously, that doesn't happen often (nor should it if you're playing correctly). The idea is that it's basically impossible to engage directly into the Terran army, but if you can scare them with the threat of storms and storm flanks while picking off units with tempests, you slowly get ahead. I think it's more of a defensive composition than an aggressive composition; it's meant to hold your ground on a pivotal 4th or 5th base.
Yeah, Tempests are actually rather weak units in a fight, they're only advantage is their range. You want just enough to force the terran to retreat from a location or to take a bad engagement: more than that is weakening yourself too much. If you have only 1, terran will just tank the damage and ignore it for the most part.
If the terran doesn't want to attack into you, 2 tempests will one shot a marine, so you can force him to keep his distance if you are careful.
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How come people tell me I 1 a after 1a'ing when I actually 2a ?
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On April 10 2014 04:40 ::Rhapsody wrote:
How come people tell me I 1 a after 1a'ing when I actually 2a ?
How come you decide to spam in this thread?
In case it was a genuine question, it's because most army's apparantly are on 1a, and the joke is Protoss requires no micro, thus, 1a.
I've read more and more about F2aclick, which is select all army units, but I rebound it 
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EPT
