EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 250
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
On April 01 2014 02:58 SatedSC2 wrote: Is it this proxy Gateway build:  Proxy 2 Gate: 1 Zealot 2 Stalker All-in (vs. Protoss) ?You're probably going to need to be more specific, or provide a replay. Yup thats it. | ||
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Aldo_EU
Russian Federation16 Posts
On March 31 2014 23:41 vhapter wrote: I don't know where you got this idea that voidray colossus is so vulnerable. It's the fastest way to get a deathball and allows for a safer and faster third than phoenix colossus imo. Instead of getting phoenixes for harassment, you get voidrays for defense. Voidray/colossus dies both to roach/hydra timings (in all variations - more roaches, more hydras, even pure roach is a problem - they kill buildings faster than you kill them) and especially mutas. | ||
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Aldo_EU
Russian Federation16 Posts
On March 31 2014 11:09 OPDream wrote: Assume a standard pvz game, protoss going phoenix-robo-3rd-colossus-twilight. The standard follow up is researching blink. But since we actually use phoenix against muta instead of blink stalkers in HOTS, isn't it a better option if we research charge first? Chargelot is very good to harass and saves gas for voidrays or faster templar tech. Please share ur opinion. Blinkstalkers are much better than plain stalkers supporting colossi, I think. Chargelot isn't the unit our midgame army consists of. Blink micro vs roach/hydra is often something that turns tide of the battle. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On April 01 2014 06:42 Aldo_EU wrote: Voidray/colossus dies both to roach/hydra timings (in all variations - more roaches, more hydras, even pure roach is a problem) and especially mutas. Way to go straw man! First, you can get the same colossus count as a phoenix colossus build. You can also get as many zealots as a phoenix colossus build. Add a few voidrays to make your army stronger since you're not going phoenix. So according to your logic, the build I'm talking about dies to roach/hydra or pure roach, but if we take a few voidrays away and give the same player 5 phoenix, he can suddenly hold off these timings. Because phoenixes are better defensively than voidrays, right? Suuuuuure. And how are mutas even a problem? You can scout tons of times with 3 sentries and have an observer at your opponent's rally point. For the most part, sending an oracle to check the back of the zerg's mineral line and another one to check the front of his natural and main is enough to scout his entire tech tree. Then you add another stargate at about 10 minutes into the game and either pump voidrays faster or phoenixes if you scout mutas rather than ground units. | ||
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Aldo_EU
Russian Federation16 Posts
On April 01 2014 07:12 vhapter wrote: Way to go straw man! First, you can get the same colossus count as a phoenix colossus build. You can also get as many zealots as a phoenix colossus build. Add a few voidrays to make your army stronger since you're not going phoenix. So according to your logic, the build I'm talking about dies to roach/hydra or pure roach, but if we take a few voidrays away and give the same player 5 phoenix, he can suddenly hold off these timings. Because phoenixes are better defensively than voidrays, right? Suuuuuure. It's not that simple. Using phoenix you are aware of his drone count and composition from the beginning, so in case of pure roach you wait a little bit with 3rd, produce immortal while bay warps in, build additional sentries, etc. You can also correct drone and hydra count. And they also help in engagement suprisingly well. 5 phoenix are much better than 3 voidrays fighting hydras, for example. With voidrays and hallucinations you don't see much, you don't kill stuff, you have less forcefields. So yes, phoenix are better. On April 01 2014 07:12 vhapter wrote: And how are mutas even a problem? You can scout tons of times with 3 sentries and have an observer at your opponent's rally point. For the most part, sending an oracle to check the back of the zerg's mineral line and another one to check the front of his natural and main is enough to scout his entire tech tree. Then you add another stargate at about 10 minutes into the game and either pump voidrays faster or phoenixes if you scout mutas rather than ground units. Since we don't get 5 phoenix blindly we just lose a lot in case of a switch. Roach into muta isn't this hard to do, and 10 mutalisks will kill voidrays/colossi/probes/one of the nexi/you name it. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Aldo_EU
Russian Federation16 Posts
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shivver
United States232 Posts
I've been doing it for some time and the only time I lose is when I screw it up. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Regarding colossus/void ray builds, they are ok i suppose. On some of the more extreme maps like Daedalus it's kind of hard to hold a third as robo+3 stargates is a lot of tech, but it can be a solid build to go for. Also, as usual, not catching the Zerg's tech path and missing a muta or ultra build is game ending (colo/void ray sucks balls against ultra/infestor/queen imo). | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On April 01 2014 07:36 Aldo_EU wrote: It's not that simple. Using phoenix you are aware of his drone count and composition from the beginning, so in case of pure roach you wait a little bit with 3rd, produce immortal while bay warps in, build additional sentries, etc. You can also correct drone and hydra count. And they also help in engagement suprisingly well. 5 phoenix are much better than 3 voidrays fighting hydras, for example. With voidrays and hallucinations you don't see much, you don't kill stuff, you have less forcefields. So yes, phoenix are better. You can buy time with your msc and you don't need immortals since you're already making voidrays (did I read it right? you don't kill roaches with voidsrays? what?). If anything, the fact that you're making voidrays makes you less vulnerable to roaches without even scouting them. On top of that, immortals delay colossi production. You also have photon overcharge to defend your third. As for scouting, how is an oracle or phoenix, along with an observer, and 2 hallucinations not enough to be safe? On April 01 2014 07:36 Aldo_EU wrote: Since we don't get 5 phoenix blindly we just lose a lot in case of a switch. Roach into muta isn't this hard to do, and 10 mutalisks will kill voidrays/colossi/probes/one of the nexi/you name it. Ok, so a protoss going voidrays colossus dies to muta switches. How about scouting and making phoenixes with your stargates? How about adding some stalkers to buy time for phoenixes and using photon overcharge? How about adding a stargate at 10 minutes for safety? I'd like to know how you deal with muta switches when you use those 5 awesome phoenixes to fight hydras, but then lose them in the process, which is very likely to happen. I guess you just make phoenixes, like you would if you had none of them, right? Yeah, so it's exactly the same situation... lol EDIT: On April 01 2014 07:54 Teoita wrote: A spire alone, sadly, doesn't mean much. You need to be scouting his unit count to figure out wether it's muta vs corruptor, and even then it's tough as zergs have started banking resources and cutting units to make both. It's all about being as active as possible, and scouting the units as soon as they hatch. Regarding colossus/void ray builds, they are ok i suppose. On some of the more extreme maps like Daedalus it's kind of hard to hold a third as robo+3 stargates is a lot of tech, but it can be a solid build to go for. Also, as usual, not catching the Zerg's tech path and missing a muta or ultra build is game ending (colo/void ray sucks balls against ultra/infestor/queen imo). Just to make things clear, I'm not advocating a robo + 3 stargates, that delays your gateways for way too long imo. You can definitely add 1-2 stargates at about 10 minutes or so, and in fact I think you should if you're doing this build. Trying to get a ton of voidrays early on off of 3 stargates or even 2 stargates delays everything by a LOT, which is what most people dislike, me included. You lose a lot of versatility and timings can be very scary, except maybe a max roach timing for obvious reasons. The nice thing is that colossi are very helpful against hydras in the midgame and a great unit to have in your deathball. Assuming you keep your tech units alive, once you have about 4-6 colossi and 8+ voidrays, along with a mothership and high templar (i.e. about 15 minutes into the game or so), you can even blindly add some immortals if you can't scout the zerg's tech path since you don't need to make colossi anymore. But of course scouting ultras is the ideal scenario. | ||
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Aldo_EU
Russian Federation16 Posts
On April 01 2014 08:13 vhapter wrote: You can buy time with your msc and you don't need immortals since you're already making voidrays (did I read it right? you don't kill roaches with voidsrays? what?). If anything, the fact that you're making voidrays makes you less vulnerable to roaches without even scouting them. On top of that, immortals delay colossi production. You also have photon overcharge to defend your third. As for scouting, how is an oracle or phoenix, along with an observer, and 2 hallucinations not enough to be safe? Voidrays are actually bad in killing lots of roaches (esp. ling-roach). Once the prismalignment ends, they don't care. And losing 3rd is usually unacceptable damage. On April 01 2014 08:13 vhapter wrote: Ok, so a protoss going voidrays colossus dies to muta switches. How about scouting and making phoenixes with your stargates? How about adding some stalkers to buy time for phoenixes and using photon overcharge? How about adding a stargate at 10 minutes for safety? I'd like to know how you deal with muta switches when you use those 5 awesome phoenixes to fight hydras, but then lose them in the process, which is very likely to happen. I guess you just make phoenixes, like you would if you had none of them, right? Yeah, so it's exactly the same situation... lol You can survive in a lot of cases, no doubt about that. But usually there's no reason to pump up early voidrays with colossi when you can make stalkers instead. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
Standard pvz. a gateway ->robo >- 2immortals -> into 9-10 min 3rd -> colossi -> templar -> whatever build. Is there any chance i can defend mutas (and how)? Even if i scout spire at lets say 8 min? Anywayz scouting spire doesn't mean a thing. | ||
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Rickyvalle21
United States320 Posts
How do I deal with the widow mine drop that hits at 6:15 This is a very old build taeja first used vs duckdeok and its still being used like Byong vs Super. Almost every protoss I watch takes significant damage and I almost feel like the build is wayy to good especially on Habitation Station. robo forge is pretty much an auto loss to and it even comes too quick for robo>3 gates. heres the replays: http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/366484 Plz help I only post when Im completely stumped to dealing with certain builds. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 01 2014 13:59 insitelol wrote: Gonna ask this again... Standard pvz. a gateway ->robo >- 2immortals -> into 9-10 min 3rd -> colossi -> templar -> whatever build. Is there any chance i can defend mutas (and how)? Even if i scout spire at lets say 8 min? Anywayz scouting spire doesn't mean a thing. No. If you open robo, you need to be very aggressive and abuse recall as much as possible. For instance, one of my favorite builds: Triple Recall Strategy. If you allow the Zerg the chance to ever bank any gas, you'll find yourself stuck on 2-3 bases for the rest of the game and unable to catch up with the following Zerg tech switches. Also, I think it's really important to go into blink stalkers before templar with robo builds anyway. Alternatively, you can also just open with stargate, go 4-5 phoenixes, take a 9:00 3rd, and defend it with colossus/blink. This is the very standard PvZ and pretty much has been since the beginning of HotS. Here is an excellent guide: Opening Stargate in PvZ On April 01 2014 14:22 Rickyvalle21 wrote: I asked this question before but I never got a response back. Im usually the type of person to play extra safe and I only post here for when I cant adapt to play safer. How do I deal with the widow mine drop that hits at 6:15 This is a very old build taeja first used vs duckdeok and its still being used like Byong vs Super. Almost every protoss I watch takes significant damage and I almost feel like the build is wayy to good especially on Habitation Station. robo forge is pretty much an auto loss to and it even comes too quick for robo>3 gates. heres the replays: http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/366484 Plz help I only post when Im completely stumped to dealing with certain builds. The problem is not defending it. It's actually quite defendable as long as you know it's coming and prepare accordingly. I'm just going to comment on what I saw in the replay: 1) You don't do any scouting at all. This is fine as long as you know exactly what's coming: reaper -> proxy -> drop -> marine poke -> stim timing is what you should be looking for, in that order. Personally, I prefer to do a 13 probe scout followed by a stalker poke to get a good idea of a) the gas timing, and b) where the gas goes. I think this is a much more reliable method than blindly hoping you can counter your opponent, especially on a map like Habitation Station with such close by air spawns. 2) Sentry second is an odd option. Most professional players just make 3-4 stalkers out of their initial gateway and rely on good micro to deal with any early pressure. In my opinion, a (blind) sentry just doesn't add much to your defense and it's possible you might rethink this choice. I want to emphasize that it is a blind sentry vs. a calculated move. If you're going to blindly defend, stalkers are better 3) Make sure your units are up on the high ground for this sort of thing. If a widow mine gets dropped on your ramp and your units are on the low ground, they're essentially useless. Again, this goes with the timing thing. Up until ~7:00, you want to have your stalkers in your main preparing for a drop; after that you can move them down to the natural to absorb a marine poke. Defending with forge is reasonable as well. You just want to defend your main with a cannon + stalkers and your natural with an observer + MSC (photon overcharge). Again, your main issue is with scouting and positioning. Make sure you're making intelligent decisions with your build. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On April 01 2014 14:29 SC2John wrote: No. If you open robo, you need to be very aggressive and abuse recall as much as possible. For instance, one of my favorite builds: Triple Recall Strategy. If you allow the Zerg the chance to ever bank any gas, you'll find yourself stuck on 2-3 bases for the rest of the game and unable to catch up with the following Zerg tech switches. Also, I think it's really important to go into blink stalkers before templar with robo builds anyway. Alternatively, you can also just open with stargate, go 4-5 phoenixes, take a 9:00 3rd, and defend it with colossus/blink. This is the very standard PvZ and pretty much has been since the beginning of HotS. Here is an excellent guide: Opening Stargate in PvZ Thanks a lot. Pretty much what i was thinking but hearing this from someone else strengthens my faith. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On April 01 2014 21:05 SatedSC2 wrote: I always thought that the safety-element of Phoenix openings comes from slowing down the Zerg. You can pick off Overlords, Queens and Drones whilst also forcing Spores to be placed down. This will slow down any attempt by the Zerg to go for a Roach/Hydra timing, which will give you more time to get out additional Colossi/Gateway units. Right..? I mean, I don't personally use Phoenix openings (I use a modified version of the build John just posted), but that's the way I've always viewed Phoenix openings as working... With a single phoenix, you can kill 2-3 overlords on the map too. Upon scouting the first phoenix, most zergs will get at least one spore per base for defense before the phoenixes arrive. They can be built blindly anyway, because in the long run dts are also a potential threat. Of course a single phoenix isn't enough to kill queens or drones. I'm not saying phoenix builds are bad, don't get me wrong! Voidray colossus is a more passive style, but getting more gateways or making zealots can be easily done based on scouting information too. You can make voidray colossus and stay on 7 gates for a while to get a lot of zealots or go up to 10 gates a little faster. The speed at which you can get a sick deathball with voidray colossus is great though. You can max out with 6-8 voidrays 3-4 colossi, tons of chargelots, and a couple of archons (not many in the first wave, but you can get tons of them as reinforcements) and do a strong timing at about 14:30-15:30. The voidray/colossus count and maxed out timing depend on how fast you hit and how many corners you cut with your nexus first opening - cut (or delay) scouting and get a second pylon before your forge for a great econ boost. If you take a 4th, you can add a few immortals in case of ultras, storm, a full mothership, and harass your opponent with the zealots you already have to sacrifice them and get even more high tech units. | ||
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