EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 249
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Gamlet
Ukraine336 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
This being with a gateway expand. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 29 2014 07:34 SC2Toastie wrote: How to defend 14/14 vs speedling all in, he can just contain me for soooo long.... This being with a gateway expand. You need to have a wall up and a sentry in it by 5:30, especially if you see no third and/or an especially late natural hatch; this is a given for gateway expands. For the most part, you just need to defend by chronoboosting out sentries and rewalling with gateways/pylons while letting the MSC/photon cannon do it's thing. If you defend the pressure without losing any probes, you're in a pretty good spot and a followup 2-base allin can be deadly (taking a quick third behind some pressure is equally as good). | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
I opener 13 gate (scout), 14 gas (3), 16 pylon, 18 cybercore, 19 zealot, MSC. Right now I didn't know what to do, there was an abundance of lings rallying in my natural. I threw down 2 gateways and a robo a bit later, hoping he'd let me do that silly ramp block thing. I left afterwards. We're talking about and all in that got about 30 zerglings out. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 29 2014 16:50 SC2Toastie wrote: The map in question was Daedalus Point, which doesn't really help either. I opener 13 gate (scout), 14 gas (3), 16 pylon, 18 cybercore, 19 zealot, MSC. Right now I didn't know what to do, there was an abundance of lings rallying in my natural. I threw down 2 gateways and a robo a bit later, hoping he'd let me do that silly ramp block thing. I left afterwards. We're talking about and all in that got about 30 zerglings out. You can wall off on Daedalus Point now. If you're unsure what that looks like, it looks something like this (although I think I'm just a hex off on the gateways): ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0jmotU7.png) It's a little bit harder on this map because nexus cannon doesn't actually reach the ramp, but map lends itself to rewalling pretty well. If you're having trouble with sentries rallying to the natural too slow, just do the semi-wall at your main ramp with gate/core. Likewise, if you'd rather sacrifice the nexus, you can rely on that gate/core wall on your main ramp while countering with an oracle or 4-gate prism drop (oracle is a little more reliable). EDIT: Also, if I didn't mention it earlier, you obviously need to cut probes (~26ish) so you have the minerals to rewall. You just need to survive until warpgate finishes. | ||
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mderg
Germany1740 Posts
I tried to go for stalker colossus + mass observer but the observers always died from the splash and my colossi got killed by vikings. Stalkers didn´t do anything, since they don´t have enough dps against a high amount of mines. It´s probably possible to beat that with really good army control but I´m not good enough to spread observers in my army and micro stalkers + collossi while macroing. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On March 30 2014 06:29 mderg wrote: How do you beat mass widow mines + vikings? I tried to go for stalker colossus + mass observer but the observers always died from the splash and my colossi got killed by vikings. Stalkers didn´t do anything, since they don´t have enough dps against a high amount of mines. It´s probably possible to beat that with really good army control but I´m not good enough to spread observers in my army and micro stalkers + collossi while macroing. It's about army control. Storm helps a lot to deal with vikings, but frankly if all they're doing is mass mine with it, you don't need anything that vikings can shoot. Storm is also useful because you can clear out mines with it if they snipe your observers. Frankly though, colossus/stalker should deal with this fine if you control your army well. Zone out the vikings with storm and stalkers, and use colossi to keep widow mines off of your units. Just kite them when they try to run up on you. Frankly this isn't a particularly viable strategy by terran, so long as you make extra observers and just do an okay job with army control, it should be completely crushed. | ||
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
Are there any good replays out there of HerO doing this build? I'm curious as to how he holds such an early third with the units he has, I am trying to do the same opener but I find I cannot take my 3rd until 10-11 min, while HerO takes it at around 8. Specifically, I am looking to transition into the chargelot archon void ray style which TL Strategy did a write up about not so long ago. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On March 31 2014 11:09 OPDream wrote: Assume a standard pvz game, protoss going phoenix-robo-3rd-colossus-twilight. The standard follow up is researching blink. But since we actually use phoenix against muta instead of blink stalkers in HOTS, isn't it a better option if we research charge first? Chargelot is very good to harass and saves gas for voidrays or faster templar tech. Please share ur opinion. Charge is generally researched later because blink is needed for some timings zerg can go for. A strong roach/hydra/corrupter push can be devastating if done right (DRG does this a lot). Blink helps micro against the corrupters, and also helps you hit a timing if zerg is too greedy, or helps you push to win if zerg commits to an attack. Charge does indeed help your zealot harass, but zealot harass is still good without charge. Stalkers in your army aren't very useful without blink at that phase of the game. It's simply needed for the engagements, and while harass is great, if you lose even one engagement as toss with your army, you lose the game. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 31 2014 14:26 Whitewing wrote: Charge is generally researched later because blink is needed for some timings zerg can go for. A strong roach/hydra/corrupter push can be devastating if done right (DRG does this a lot). Blink helps micro against the corrupters, and also helps you hit a timing if zerg is too greedy, or helps you push to win if zerg commits to an attack. Charge does indeed help your zealot harass, but zealot harass is still good without charge. Stalkers in your army aren't very useful without blink at that phase of the game. It's simply needed for the engagements, and while harass is great, if you lose even one engagement as toss with your army, you lose the game. I think it depends on the style you're doing. I admit that blink is the more natural choice, but under the right circumstances, a followup with charge and mostly immortals can be pretty devastating. If you're playing against a hydra/ling or double upgraded ling style, I think it's a fairly decent followup (also, good to spend your extra gas on double ups). See Patience vs. Jaedong G5 on Alterzim. Sidenote: I don't think charge alongside voidray/colossus is very good unless you are putting on a lot of multi-pronged aggression via warp prism/mass chargelot warpins, and army pressure + recall. And again, it's very susceptible to timings. Colossus/voidray is just greedy. | ||
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fapy
Australia52 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On March 31 2014 13:39 Daimai wrote: http://imbabuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvz/pvz-heros-aggressive-stargate-build/ Are there any good replays out there of HerO doing this build? I'm curious as to how he holds such an early third with the units he has, I am trying to do the same opener but I find I cannot take my 3rd until 10-11 min, while HerO takes it at around 8. Specifically, I am looking to transition into the chargelot archon void ray style which TL Strategy did a write up about not so long ago. Third game on Whirlwind <--- Jaedong has roaches ready immediately against the first pressure so HerO backs out quickly and takes a third + defends it with MSC/void rays HerO vs Hyun from MLG Anaheim <--- delays third for zealot warpins to kill Hyun's third, then takes his and transitions into charge/void ray | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On March 31 2014 16:02 SC2John wrote: I think it depends on the style you're doing. I admit that blink is the more natural choice, but under the right circumstances, a followup with charge and mostly immortals can be pretty devastating. If you're playing against a hydra/ling or double upgraded ling style, I think it's a fairly decent followup (also, good to spend your extra gas on double ups). See Patience vs. Jaedong G5 on Alterzim. Sidenote: I don't think charge alongside voidray/colossus is very good unless you are putting on a lot of multi-pronged aggression via warp prism/mass chargelot warpins, and army pressure + recall. And again, it's very susceptible to timings. Colossus/voidray is just greedy. I don't know where you got this idea that voidray colossus is so vulnerable. It's the fastest way to get a deathball and allows for a safer and faster third than phoenix colossus imo. Instead of getting phoenixes for harassment, you get voidrays for defense. If you stay on a single stargate, you can get your gateways down much faster than with 2-3 stargate nonstop voidray production too. And you can also get high templar in time to deal with vipers and even add a second stargate early enough to counter mutas. Scouting is not problem with hallucination. Maybe you just tried or saw a very greedy version of the build and got the wrong idea? On March 31 2014 17:09 fapy wrote: Anyone know of replays where Protoss opens storm and doesn't die to mine/marine/marauder? Really don't want to be forced into colo openings.. As long as you get observers and a cannon per mineral line, I don't see how adding mines should be enough to kill you all the time. Of course it's a good idea to add colossi against widow mines, but you don't need to get them right away. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
I don't know where you got this idea that voidray colossus is so vulnerable. It's the fastest way to get a deathball and allows for a safer and faster third than phoenix colossus imo. Instead of getting phoenixes for harassment, you get voidrays for defense. If you stay on a single stargate, you can get your gateways down much faster than with 2-3 stargate nonstop voidray production too. And you can also get high templar in time to deal with vipers and even add a second stargate early enough to counter mutas. Scouting is not problem with hallucination. Maybe you just tried or saw a very greedy version of the build and got the wrong idea? Definitely, if it wasn't greedy, everyone would be playing that style as, going voidray-templar wouldn't give any advantage over void ray-colossus. At the moment the main advantage of void ray-templar is that you don't need to have two techs at tier 3 plus one at tier 2 before a viper timing can hit. If you claim you can achieve this safely, then there's no reason not to go void ray-colossus straight. About phoenix-colossus, hallucination scouting isn't as efficient as real phoenixes, and sentry energy costs a lot of extra gas too. Then again there are numerous timings a zerg can hit during the midgame so I would say there isn't any safe playstyle as a protoss, you are always weak at some point. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On March 29 2014 09:08 SatedSC2 wrote: Just want to point out that Zerglings will/can be at your base long before 5:30 when Zerg opens 14/14. Continuously attempting to get your wall up will buy time for the Nexus to finish, at which point you can trigger Photon Overcharge, but the Zerg should definitely be attempting to deny your wall-off way before 5:30 happens: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uuA0JUP.jpg) Is this a situation where you need to fall back on 3 gate expo? | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On April 01 2014 00:38 KingAlphard wrote: Definitely, if it wasn't greedy, everyone would be playing that style as, going templar-void ray wouldn't give any advantage over colossus-void ray. At the moment the main advantage of templar-void ray is that you don't need to have two techs at tier 3 plus one at tier 2 before a viper timing can hit. If you claim you can achieve this safely, then there's no reason not to go colossus-void ray straight. About phoenix-colossus, hallucination scouting isn't as efficient as real phoenixes, and sentry energy costs a lot of extra gas too. Then again there are numerous timings a zerg can hit during the midgame so I would say there isn't any safe playstyle as a protoss, you are always weak at some point. If you get 3 sentries before wg finishes, you can do a ton of scouting. You can also get a single phoenix or oracle before expanding, which helps in scouting for 4th bases and if anything is moving across the map, along with an observer at the zerg's rally point. You can make a robo before taking a third, so your observer comes out pretty early. That's actually more scouting information than any popular versions of the voidray templar build get, unless you get an early-ish robo. So the deal is, you can get voidrays out much more slowly and stay on a single stargate in order to afford colossus tech and a higher gateway count for defense. Compared to voidray templar, it's basically a rearragement of gas management - you get a robo instead of another stargate, then before starting colossus production you have to get a robo bay, which is similar to getting another voidray. To get thermal lance, you can delay your twillight council. You don't get 8 voidrays asap, but that's because you get colossi and some zealots earlier to hold the front if need be. Compared to a phoenix colossus build, some of the gas you spend on voidrays comes from the fact that you don't make phoenixes, except maybe one. Instead of getting blink and spending your gas on stalkers, some of the extra gas you'd get is spent on voidrays... and the rest can be spent on a templar archives to deal with vipers. There's also a difference between having storm and just having templar for feedbacks. If you're dealing with a hyper fast hive build, you can build a templar archives at about 12 minutes, so that at 13 minutes you warp in templars just as an anti-viper unit. Note: I'm not theorycrafting this stuff. While I don't have much experience with this build, I do know everything lines up. | ||
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