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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
So in short: be like zerg vs protoss. Slow them down, force them into certain unit compositions, expand aggressively and use that economy to always be one step ahead with tech switches. The combined upgrades just make it a lot tougher on you if you can't slow them down because the mech army strength obviously spirals much quicker. | ||
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
On March 24 2014 20:26 playa wrote: However, when I play SC 2, I like to play safe and collect free wins from people treating the game as a gamble. if its so easy to just do that then everyone would just play safe greedy and get 100% winrate already. plus if u only play safe its going to be easy for any opponent to exploit u in a boX based on your "safe" style. knowing how to execute various all-in and timings give you a better understanding of the flow of the game and provides a much wider reportoire of builds you can use | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On March 24 2014 20:43 Probemicro wrote: if its so easy to just do that then everyone would just play safe greedy and get 100% winrate already. plus if u only play safe its going to be easy for any opponent to exploit u in a boX based on your "safe" style. knowing how to execute various all-in and timings give you a better understanding of the flow of the game and provides a much wider reportoire of builds you can use What are you going to do to exploit me? Probe scout later in a P vs P. I'm terrified of the possible ramifications. Take the extra minerals. You're probably going to need it if you're wasting time doing all-ins, anyways. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On March 24 2014 21:00 DarkLordOlli wrote: Laugh all you want but those minerals can make the difference at the absolute highest level of PvP. I was kind of joking, too. I actually think the safest way to P vs T is to open with 1 proxy gate. I also think proxy 1 gate is probably the safest way to open in P vs P (which I mix in sometimes in P vs P), too. These are builds that are far from all-ins, that are safe versus everything, which punish you for not scouting. So, in my eyes, you couldn't punish me by not scouting. You'd still be gambling. 4 player maps are another animal, though. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
It's also worked really well for me. I'm not sure how others feel about this but against a hellbat/tank composition I kinda like to go double robo with attack upgrades (!) and get out 2 colossi before the attack on my third hits. It helps zone the terran out because hellbats want to be in front of the tanks -> colossi should get shots off on them uncontested if terran gets too close. Keep in mind that the longer you can zone him out from your third, the faster the timing closes for terran because your third will kick in production + techwise. Attack upgrades first in this case because immortals don't benefit from armor vs tanks and neither do colossi if they're out of range. This approach may or may not be viable at the highest level, I'm not sure, but it's worked for me against NA masters. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
If the terran sits back and doesn't commit to any sort of timing, the second I'm able to identify their defensive stance on 3 bases (planetary fortresses being added, low hellbat count, faster teching are good indicators) I like to go a little crazy and take a 4th really fast (for gas mining only) and get stargates up immediately. That puts the terran in a super awkward spot because they just decided to play defensively and basically accepted me getting away with the earlier 3 base economy - and suddenly I'm going up to 4 bases + teching at the same time. 300/300 for stargates may sound like a lot but you don't necessarily need to use them if terran does push out to punish your 4th (their push isn't exactly dedicated either, it's just a "guess I have to do this now" type of moveout) and since you're playing a unit composition that isn't as gas heavy otherwise (immortals and zealots don't really cut into your gas THAT heavily and you're not making too many colossi if any at all), adding those to force some kind of response or make them pay harder for not responding is usually worth it. This btw is all me theorycrafting from my own experience. If they still don't push out then I like skipping void rays for tempests entirely. If you can go to straight to tempests or don't have a clear cut timing where their anti air is especially weak then I think tempests are usually the better choice. I also think investing into storm whenever you're trying to commit to a skytoss army is crucial. I don't think skytoss works without it. There's way too few PvT mech games at the highest level to reliably learn from D: | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5458 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On March 25 2014 18:29 SoleSteeler wrote: It seems like almost every macro PvZ the protoss goes phoenix... If my control/multitask isn't that good, is it still worth it to try? Hmm. Lost a few PvZs today... Definitely didn't pressure the zerg enough. There's also a style that gets an Oracle and 2 Voidrays after, pressure with the oracle and get some kills, kill overlords and secure a third with the two void rays. Phoenix seem more efficient over a longer hgame though. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
I've also faced mine drop into 2 base SCV pull strategies since they force you into going robo to be safe against mines. I can win on bigger maps against it but on maps like Yeonsu, it hits insanely fast. I'm thinking that cannons in the mineral line are going to have to be a thing again like they were in early HOTS because otherwise a robo that early is too easily exploited. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On March 27 2014 09:46 SatedSC2 wrote: What do you mean by, "a Robo that early is too easily exploited"? I think that SCV pull strategies could definitely become strong again if people start using Colossus openings, but isn't the best response to SCV pull strategies to go double Forge/Colossus and continue making Colossi much longer by delaying Templar tech, something that Mines wouldn't be that useful against? I suppose. I just hate opening robo every game. We did it for so long in WOL and I was enjoying having the flexibility to open in any way I wanted in some cases. What I meant by exploited when talking about cannons versus robo is that cannons allow you guaranteed detection in mineral lines while still allowing you to go for non-robo tech early if you want, combined with not having to worry about your observers being slightly out of position or worse, losing one to a mine shot. I was more referencing early HOTS when people were going phoenix since it could easily shut down mine and hellbat drops when combined with a cannon in each mineral line. It wasn't necessarily better than robo versus mine drops but it felt safer at times. With the new map pool, I am slightly less concerned about SCV pulls and the like. It appears that the rush distances are longer than maps like Yeonsu, Polar Night, and Daedalus. At least on a few of the maps anyway. That combined with a couple of more safe thirds rather than the insanely open thirds on Daedalus or Polar Night. The new maps appear bad for blink, but I don't play that style so it doesn't bother me too much. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
On March 27 2014 19:35 SatedSC2 wrote: You can still open with a Forge and then get a Robotics Facility for Colossi later on, if you're willing to rely on Cannons for detection instead of Observers. The only problem I have with using Cannons is that Terran players tend to end up placing Mines in areas of my base where they know there isn't any Cannon coverage, such as between the two bases, and then I either need to build even more Cannons or get a Robotics Facility anyway! I also find that if I open with a Forge instead of a Robotics Facility, that my mid-game map vision is really lacking and it's quite hard to play against Speedivacs without Observers for vision!  Opening with stargate is also fine against mine harass, oracle for detection and make a Phoenix kill medivac. You don't need to open with robo every game | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On March 28 2014 01:02 SatedSC2 wrote: Funnily enough that sounds like what I was doing for a long time. I would go oracle first for detection and then go into constant phoenix for the entire game while getting colossus. I just don't like how shaky oracles are for early detection but I suppose I should get over that. But yeah, that is probably the best solution for opening stargate, just have to be careful with the oracles. And you kinda have to go robo at some point.I'm personally very bad with Stargate openings so I very rarely use them (unless I am gonna Void Ray all-in kekekeke), but this is definitely another viable option. If you're into Stargate openings then HerO was doing some insane Oracle -> Mass Phoenix openings vs. Terran on his stream yesterday. I'm not sure how good his opponent's were relative to him (he was playing vs. Masters players) but it looked amazing regardless! But really, if what Hero did is anything like what I was doing for a long time, that oracle into mass phoenix style is really fun. Against really good players it can be challenging to pull off because there are some bio timings it is a bit weak to if you make any mistakes (which is why I switched away from it a few weeks back. I'm probably going to go back to it with the new map pool. I was dying on Yeonsu and a couple other maps to stim timings so I decided to go back to doing robo builds, which in all honestly has probably caused me to lose more), but you can typically walk over worse players and have fun, close games against equal or slightly better players. Against those Terran players who aren't so great in longer games but try to gain advantages with drops, it is basically a free win. Drops just don't work if you are active with your phoenixes. You can constantly clear the towers with phoenixes so you can keep control of them, and then also use the phoenixes to check common paths medivacs take for drops. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
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