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On April 09 2014 20:15 Aldo_EU wrote: Does anyone use tempests to zone out ghosts/vikings? It looks strange, but I'll give it a try definitely. Mass tempest is must have in late PvP and PvZ, it may be something that could swing the balance in PvT lategame as well.
To be honest, I don't like adding more than 4-5. Any more than that doesn't significantly boost your army power and overall just makes you immobile as well as weaker. The only time you're ever going to all the way to mass tempests/cannons/templar is when your opponent has time to make a BC/ghost/raven army...but obviously, that doesn't happen often (nor should it if you're playing correctly).
The idea is that it's basically impossible to engage directly into the Terran army, but if you can scare them with the threat of storms and storm flanks while picking off units with tempests, you slowly get ahead. I think it's more of a defensive composition than an aggressive composition; it's meant to hold your ground on a pivotal 4th or 5th base.
Yeah, Tempests are actually rather weak units in a fight, they're only advantage is their range. You want just enough to force the terran to retreat from a location or to take a bad engagement: more than that is weakening yourself too much. If you have only 1, terran will just tank the damage and ignore it for the most part.
If the terran doesn't want to attack into you, 2 tempests will one shot a marine, so you can force him to keep his distance if you are careful.
Idea is to one-shot ghosts/vikings, so 4-5 is the right number I guess.
On April 09 2014 20:15 Aldo_EU wrote: Does anyone use tempests to zone out ghosts/vikings? It looks strange, but I'll give it a try definitely. Mass tempest is must have in late PvP and PvZ, it may be something that could swing the balance in PvT lategame as well.
To be honest, I don't like adding more than 4-5. Any more than that doesn't significantly boost your army power and overall just makes you immobile as well as weaker. The only time you're ever going to all the way to mass tempests/cannons/templar is when your opponent has time to make a BC/ghost/raven army...but obviously, that doesn't happen often (nor should it if you're playing correctly).
The idea is that it's basically impossible to engage directly into the Terran army, but if you can scare them with the threat of storms and storm flanks while picking off units with tempests, you slowly get ahead. I think it's more of a defensive composition than an aggressive composition; it's meant to hold your ground on a pivotal 4th or 5th base.
Yeah, Tempests are actually rather weak units in a fight, they're only advantage is their range. You want just enough to force the terran to retreat from a location or to take a bad engagement: more than that is weakening yourself too much. If you have only 1, terran will just tank the damage and ignore it for the most part.
If the terran doesn't want to attack into you, 2 tempests will one shot a marine, so you can force him to keep his distance if you are careful.
Idea is to one-shot ghosts/vikings, so 4-5 is the right number I guess.
I'd say that's about right. 4-5. Don't forget to get air weapon upgrades.
Backstory I don't know if it's my damn luck or if there's a meta shit happening right now. Over my last month or so I've opened gateway expand exactly the same as the last 6 months, yet for some reason, the standard response i'm vsing is zergs teching on 2 bases and not expanding.
The usual followup is upgraded roach ling which I feel is probably the only thing a zerg can do off 2 bases.
I've basically have no idea what the correct response should be and basically winging it.
Question 1. Why are zergs doing this? What are they trying to achieve? 2. Has my ranking just decayed to such a point i'm playing against nonsensical opponents? 3. What is the correct response? Atm I turtle on 2 bases and tech up everything and take a third at 12 mins (very late).
No, I get this a fair bit too these days. In my case, it's usually speedling into delayed third and Muta. If I scout it in time, I usually Gateway all-in. If it's Roach-Ling, rarer in my experience, I normally Robo expand into a third so I am usually alright.
On April 10 2014 11:53 Dracover wrote: P v Z question.
Backstory I don't know if it's my damn luck or if there's a meta shit happening right now. Over my last month or so I've opened gateway expand exactly the same as the last 6 months, yet for some reason, the standard response i'm vsing is zergs teching on 2 bases and not expanding.
The usual followup is upgraded roach ling which I feel is probably the only thing a zerg can do off 2 bases.
I've basically have no idea what the correct response should be and basically winging it.
Question 1. Why are zergs doing this? What are they trying to achieve? 2. Has my ranking just decayed to such a point i'm playing against nonsensical opponents? 3. What is the correct response? Atm I turtle on 2 bases and tech up everything and take a third at 12 mins (very late).
It's a really bad way to be "safe" versus 2-base all-ins; that's why people do it. People up to diamond/masters do it, don't worry about your skill. To deal with it, just relax and play a little more defensively. Take your 3rd on time (~9:30) and let him cancel it 2-3 times in return for losing all of his units and map control. If you're doing something like a soultrain, just go up to colossus and hit a little bit later and you'll steamroll your opponent's terrible economy.
Piece of cake. Just know that it's generally a terrible opening (the only semi-viable ones being double upgraded lings -> ultras or 2-base hydra) and you're generally ahead if they do it . Just play defensively, scout well, and you should be good going into the mid game.
On April 10 2014 11:53 Dracover wrote: P v Z question.
Backstory I don't know if it's my damn luck or if there's a meta shit happening right now. Over my last month or so I've opened gateway expand exactly the same as the last 6 months, yet for some reason, the standard response i'm vsing is zergs teching on 2 bases and not expanding.
The usual followup is upgraded roach ling which I feel is probably the only thing a zerg can do off 2 bases.
I've basically have no idea what the correct response should be and basically winging it.
Question 1. Why are zergs doing this? What are they trying to achieve? 2. Has my ranking just decayed to such a point i'm playing against nonsensical opponents? 3. What is the correct response? Atm I turtle on 2 bases and tech up everything and take a third at 12 mins (very late).
You guys correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe doing something like the 2 immortal 2 colossi all in should work just fine against 2 base zerg. Scout with a hallucination to make sure something really silly doesn't happen (like running 2 base mutas without any stalkers or something) and then go for it. If you come to the conclusion that you can't break the zerg upon scouting, or that perhaps it's just not worth it, then of course you need to take a third.
On April 10 2014 11:53 Dracover wrote: P v Z question.
Backstory I don't know if it's my damn luck or if there's a meta shit happening right now. Over my last month or so I've opened gateway expand exactly the same as the last 6 months, yet for some reason, the standard response i'm vsing is zergs teching on 2 bases and not expanding.
The usual followup is upgraded roach ling which I feel is probably the only thing a zerg can do off 2 bases.
I've basically have no idea what the correct response should be and basically winging it.
Question 1. Why are zergs doing this? What are they trying to achieve? 2. Has my ranking just decayed to such a point i'm playing against nonsensical opponents? 3. What is the correct response? Atm I turtle on 2 bases and tech up everything and take a third at 12 mins (very late).
You guys correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe doing something like the 2 immortal 2 colossi all in should work just fine against 2 base zerg. Scout with a hallucination to make sure something really silly doesn't happen (like running 2 base mutas without any stalkers or something) and then go for it. If you come to the conclusion that you can't break the zerg upon scouting, or that perhaps it's just not worth it, then of course you need to take a third.
Yeah, that all-in is particularly powerful versus this build because the Zerg's drone, resource, and larva count is waaaaaay down from a standard triple hatch build.
I'm a mid-masters Terran who's been playing a bit of Protoss lately, had a few questions about observers in mid-late game PvT. How many observers will you typically get with a Chargelot / Archon / HT mid game and what are the best places to position them (obviously map dependent but for example I'll typically try for one to scout when my Opponent's army is moving out / where their rally is, 1-2 around my base in drop / army movement locations, 1 with my army), and do you think it's better to be moving around with them to cover more area or not moving them so they're harder to spot? Or is it all just situational?
Really just want to hear some other opinions, from what I've seen in pro games it seems like observers are more of a luxury than an necessity until cloaked ghosts are on the field.
On April 14 2014 13:32 Pursuit_ wrote: I'm a mid-masters Terran who's been playing a bit of Protoss lately, had a few questions about observers in mid-late game PvT. How many observers will you typically get with a Chargelot / Archon / HT mid game and what are the best places to position them (obviously map dependent but for example I'll typically try for one to scout when my Opponent's army is moving out / where their rally is, 1-2 around my base in drop / army movement locations, 1 with my army), and do you think it's better to be moving around with them to cover more area or not moving them so they're harder to spot? Or is it all just situational?
Really just want to hear some other opinions, from what I've seen in pro games it seems like observers are more of a luxury than an necessity until cloaked ghosts are on the field.
Frankly I don't make fewer than 3 ever with such an opening, and I make more as the game goes on. It's not unusual for me to have around 10 by the end of the game. I don't do it just for ghosts though, you really need good vision on the map to position your army correctly, and you have to see drops coming. You want around 3 for your army minimum once ghosts are out, else a snipe on them will just mean you either die or retreat.
It's better for some to be stationary and others moving around. The ones you want to be moving are the ones watching drop paths and other places that it's hard to snipe them with bio. Others should be in key locations just sitting there watching.
Also, when your observers get killed, remake them. Don't be skimpy now.
On April 14 2014 13:32 Pursuit_ wrote: I'm a mid-masters Terran who's been playing a bit of Protoss lately, had a few questions about observers in mid-late game PvT. How many observers will you typically get with a Chargelot / Archon / HT mid game and what are the best places to position them (obviously map dependent but for example I'll typically try for one to scout when my Opponent's army is moving out / where their rally is, 1-2 around my base in drop / army movement locations, 1 with my army), and do you think it's better to be moving around with them to cover more area or not moving them so they're harder to spot? Or is it all just situational?
Really just want to hear some other opinions, from what I've seen in pro games it seems like observers are more of a luxury than an necessity until cloaked ghosts are on the field.
I like to have one Observer near to Terran rally point (I usually use the first obs to scout Terran's base and them move it infront their nat), second infront my natural. To spot drops I like using pylons outside my base on the edges of the map. If there is lot of dead space around your bases, you need to have Observers there too. So I usually have 3-5 observers in PvT, depending on the map. I don't like to have more than that, becouse they would take to much army supply, and pylons can serve almost just as good as observers and are much cheaper, and don't take production away from your Collosi.
How do I hold a Proxy Zealot/Stalker? One of the last games of season 1, I opened 3 Stalker rush as I usually do in PvP and scouted around for proxies with my probe. I did not pick up on this proxy because it was a little outside the usual locations for a proxy 2 gate Zealot. My probe scout then picked up no structures in my opponent's main and just before my first Stalker popped, a Zealot and Stalkerx2 walked into my main. After a fair bit of micro, which involved pulling probes, I gg'ed out.
What is the best way to handle this? I usually open 3 Stalker into MSC/Nexus (order is inter-changeable) into Robo.
Thanks.
Edit/ Oh yeah, in this game, I lost one of my pylons which meant I was supply blocked and couldn't get my third Stalker out.
What's the best way to deal with this kind of composition: Widow mines, Banshee/Raven/Viking, Thor
My go to has been Tempest/HT with Storm/Immortals, adding observers for detection and an Oracle for Revelation and maybe some Blink Stalkers to help with Vikings. But the problem with this composition is that it's extremely expensive and requires 3-4 bases to get to. So unless I can play a really greedy / defensive game and not take much damage from harass, it's quite hard to get to.
It's also very micro intensive and one little fuck-up can cost you the game. The Tempests have to be perfectly babysat (they need to be shooting the right thing all the time). The observers need to be revealing the mines but not stray too far or they'll get killed by the Raven/Viking/Thor. The Stalkers need to stay out of range of everything except Vikings pretty much or they get shredded. The Immortals need to avoid walking into Widow Mines.
Ideas? This is one of the most frustrating things to play against. When I get a good macro start the game feels fun and back and forth, but when the Terran goes for early pressure/cheese I feel like I'm always fighting from behind against this comp.
Any normal PvT composition should be able to beat that, just go heavy on the high templar. The thors aren't much of a problem, gateway units can kill those easily enough. Your real concern is the ravens and banshees, both of which are beaten by high templar. The mines can be annoying with your observers dying to the raven/viking, but as long as you've got some colossi and enough high templar, they should never be able to push you. Without tanks, they can't really stop you from pushing them.
If I remember correctly, someone posted the parting 1 gate expand build order where he goes robo and uses chargelots and archons to stop the medivac push. Does anyone know where that post is?
Edit: even if someone doesn't have that, I'm just looking for a way to open into templar style while getting a robo so I can use observers instead of the oracle for vision
Edit 2: I guess another thing I should ask is, with the current metagame showing how strong the mine is what is now the current 1gate expand route to take?
As far as wether it's still viable after the mine nerf, none has quite figured out. Some people say that style is dead and colossus will come back, others thing it's still playable.
As far as wether it's still viable after the mine nerf, none has quite figured out. Some people say that style is dead and colossus will come back, others thing it's still playable.
I used google and still couldn't find it even with all the obvious including "team liquid"
But thanks that's exactly what I was looking for you the man
On April 14 2014 17:14 aZealot wrote: How do I hold a Proxy Zealot/Stalker? One of the last games of season 1, I opened 3 Stalker rush as I usually do in PvP and scouted around for proxies with my probe. I did not pick up on this proxy because it was a little outside the usual locations for a proxy 2 gate Zealot. My probe scout then picked up no structures in my opponent's main and just before my first Stalker popped, a Zealot and Stalkerx2 walked into my main. After a fair bit of micro, which involved pulling probes, I gg'ed out.
What is the best way to handle this? I usually open 3 Stalker into MSC/Nexus (order is inter-changeable) into Robo.
Thanks.
Edit/ Oh yeah, in this game, I lost one of my pylons which meant I was supply blocked and couldn't get my third Stalker out.
Any thoughts on this?
Looking at the replay, I should have pulled my probes better. Maybe 3 each to the first 2 Stalkers and CB out the first Stalker to kite the Zealot. Then queue two more units (Stalker and Zealot) while the MSC builds. I had 22 probes to his 12 when he hit, so I can afford to lose a few. I'm wondering if I should rejig my opening to go MSC first into 3 Stalkers but I really like the flexibility of my current opening. I deal with most things, so far, pretty well with a 3 Stalker rush.
On April 15 2014 03:20 Whitewing wrote: Any normal PvT composition should be able to beat that, just go heavy on the high templar.
I get shredded. Like, not even close.
All the Colossus die, widow mines make it impossible to move anywhere. Often there are tanks and hellbats too.
Mass Tempest HT is the only thing I've been succesful with in macro games.
Any good allin you can think of to punish ameching player?
It helps if you get some observers and right click them on your immortals or colossus, rather than hotkeying them into the army. That way they don't get ahead of your units, but should still see mines in time for them to die to your army due to your firepower.
As for all-inning, it really depends on how they're playing mech. If they're being safe about it, you aren't going to break them with an all-in. You can however, contain them and prevent a third from going down. Heavy blink stalkers is great for that, especially if you have some immortals as a backbone. Just deny the third and get ahead in econ. The 5th and 6th gas geysers are key for mech players.
On April 14 2014 17:14 aZealot wrote: How do I hold a Proxy Zealot/Stalker? One of the last games of season 1, I opened 3 Stalker rush as I usually do in PvP and scouted around for proxies with my probe. I did not pick up on this proxy because it was a little outside the usual locations for a proxy 2 gate Zealot. My probe scout then picked up no structures in my opponent's main and just before my first Stalker popped, a Zealot and Stalkerx2 walked into my main. After a fair bit of micro, which involved pulling probes, I gg'ed out.
What is the best way to handle this? I usually open 3 Stalker into MSC/Nexus (order is inter-changeable) into Robo.
Thanks.
Edit/ Oh yeah, in this game, I lost one of my pylons which meant I was supply blocked and couldn't get my third Stalker out.
Any thoughts on this?
Looking at the replay, I should have pulled my probes better. Maybe 3 each to the first 2 Stalkers and CB out the first Stalker to kite the Zealot. Then queue two more units (Stalker and Zealot) while the MSC builds. I had 22 probes to his 12 when he hit, so I can afford to lose a few. I'm wondering if I should rejig my opening to go MSC first into 3 Stalkers but I really like the flexibility of my current opening. I deal with most things, so far, pretty well with a 3 Stalker rush.
Do you have a replay? It sounds like it just comes down to micro really. Against a proxy like this the stalkers are superior early on to the mothership core, as you aren't going to get time for overcharge anyway, and they do more damage than the msc does, and cost less gas, so the stalkers first is the right call.
EPT
. Just play defensively, scout well, and you should be good going into the mid game.
