EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 239
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 26 2014 02:43 Teoita wrote: Hmm if he does double ebay before fact you should easily have storm in time for his medivac timing (which will be heavily delayed), but you will probably be a bit behind in upgrades. I'd probably take a slightly faster third (like, 10/11 ish minutes as opposed to 12/13) and delay colossus tech a bit to get a good gateway count up (he should have a strong 2/2 timing), but other than that you can play fairly standard i think. Fast third is definitely the way to go (I would go even sooner than 10/11 minutes). The double engineering bay that early will cut into his unit count a little bit, and the mothership core with a couple sentries reigns supreme before medivacs are out, which are delayed. There won't be much he can do to punish you. I'd go double forge with a fast third myself, while still teching to storm: the extra gas will help you afford it. Beware scv pulls though, and early ghosts, but a good templar spread should be enough. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
I've said a lot of times, and i'm going to repeat, that i personally dislike teching to double forge and storm off 2bases because it will gas starve you hard, especially of a gas heavy opener like oracle or robo+mass observer (which have comparable gas investments). I do agree with a second forge after the third is set up and saturated though. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
I try to hurry and get double robo colossus but by the time I have a sizable colossi count the zerg usually already has vipers. Supposedly I'm supposed to turtle until a large deathball but it always seems like I can never secure a fourth base if they're semi-decent with their swarmhost movement. Is it at all possible to get a good skytoss/colossus army off of 3 bases and I'm just terrible with my money? Blink stalker backstabs or zealot drops maybe, while going for some voidrays? Voidrays seem to be a decent response but queens/spores are really cost effective. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
From what i've seen, pros tend to stick to a single robo and still have enough colossi to counter the locusts, but other than that what you are doing is reasonable so it's likely an execution problem. Keep in mind that sh games are long as HELL and you need a shit ton of patience to win. Easiest mistake to make is to just say "ok fuck this shit im going to attack" and then you just engage badly and lose everything. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 26 2014 03:22 Teoita wrote: Hmm not sure about a much faster third because he still does have a fast-ish stim, so i feel like taking it off, say, 5gates instead of the standard 3 or 7 would be reasonable. I've said a lot of times, and i'm going to repeat, that i personally dislike teching to double forge and storm off 2bases because it will gas starve you hard, especially of a gas heavy opener like oracle or robo+mass observer (which have comparable gas investments). I do agree with a second forge after the third is set up and saturated though. That's why I said to take a faster third, so you'd get more gas faster. I see your point about the stim, but without medivacs stim really isn't that scary, I think 3 gates would be enough to have time to get more gates up after the third goes down. The sooner you start it, the sooner you can photon overcharge there if you need to, and if his double e-bays are that early, he's not going to be moving out with much until that 2/2 timing. Going double e-bay that early really does hinder terran a fair bit, getting the gas for add-ons, stim, and double upgrades before you even start your factory means there likely won't be any marauders (or very few). But yeah, add the second forge on after you take the third, I just think the third should be faster against a double engi-bay that ridiculously early. It's important to remember that with storm, upgrade differential isn't as important. On February 26 2014 03:42 mizU wrote: What am I supposed to be getting when I scout mass swarmhost/static d? I try to hurry and get double robo colossus but by the time I have a sizable colossi count the zerg usually already has vipers. Supposedly I'm supposed to turtle until a large deathball but it always seems like I can never secure a fourth base if they're semi-decent with their swarmhost movement. Is it at all possible to get a good skytoss/colossus army off of 3 bases and I'm just terrible with my money? Blink stalker backstabs or zealot drops maybe, while going for some voidrays? Voidrays seem to be a decent response but queens/spores are really cost effective. I've tried double robo, it doesn't work too well because you have no gas left over to do anything else with it really. Maybe a second robo to make observers and warp prisms, but you want to harass immediately. Voidrays aren't a good response, spores and queens are too good, vipers will just yank them, and they can easily add on a few infestors. You pretty much have to turtle behind a deathball, get tempests and some oracles for revelation, and harass non-stop with zealot warp ins and DT's. You need revelation to see the vipers and high templar to feedback them before they yank your stuff, and you need a mothership so that the locusts don't keep picking away at your army. All of that is very gas intensive, and you can't afford it on double robo. Also, against swarm hosts, I find that taking multiple bases all at once is a good call: it only takes minerals, and if you can mine those out sooner rather than later, you can fall back to your natural or third when you need to (and it won't be mined out). Your harass will buy you a lot of time: zerg needs a long time to get to their ultimate composition (swarm hosts, vipers, mass queen/spore/spine/corrupter) and needs to spread creep. Harassing constantly and trading minerals while securing more bases is really the only way to play it out. Think of it like the matchup being flipped on its head: usually the zerg has more bases and protoss has the stronger, more efficient army, but against swarm hosts it is reversed. Just expand and harass as much as you can. Time Warp is spectacular against locusts. Kill as much creep as you possibly can to limit the range of them, swarm hosts will not want to go off creep, locusts can't reach as far off creep, and queens and spines/spores can't push off creep. Any chance you get, clear the creep. If you have to, push forwards with your army and sentries, forcefield the locusts off, and kill tumors then back out. BTW: I've found that Immortal drops are amazing against swarm host play, they tear through the static defenses that swarm host players rely on very quickly, and warping in zealots to shield them can quickly result in a base or very important tech going down. Using a second robo to make immortals to harass with might not be a terrible idea, but this is just from my own experience. I've had more than a few games where I made 4 immortals, 2 warp prisms, and took out the hive and a lot of important tech (including infestation pit) which put them back to square one. Killing tech is great, not only because of the time it buys you before they can make more, but also because due to the limited bases they can really secure while you harass them, they can't really afford to remake the tech. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
Here's what I'm looking for: A solid timing attack I can use to stay safe and expand behind. I don't want to have the attack HAVE to be all-in, just some pressure to keep my expansion safe and to scout what's going on. A way to determine when I should fall back from my timing attack A followup plan after the pressure is over. If anyone could give me a good build and perhaps a VOD/Replay or two, I would be appreciative. | ||
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
On February 26 2014 06:58 Arisen wrote: I'm getting back into the game and want to play a bit of protoss as it might fit my style a bit more. I'm mechanically really poor at protoss, so I'm looking for a jumping off point so I can improve my mechanics. (I was a high diamond zerg player, I estimate my mechanics are good enough to safely beat players through gold-platinum with my current protoss based on a few hours of playing, but I lack almost any knowledge on how to do anything with protoss or any race, really, at the moment) Here's what I'm looking for: A solid timing attack I can use to stay safe and expand behind. I don't want to have the attack HAVE to be all-in, just some pressure to keep my expansion safe and to scout what's going on. A way to determine when I should fall back from my timing attack A followup plan after the pressure is over. If anyone could give me a good build and perhaps a VOD/Replay or two, I would be appreciative. I'm not entirely sure what matchup you are looking for specifically, but I know one for PvZ and one for PvT. PvZ - 3 gateway attack @7:00 Quick Note: This is a build I didn't look for a build order before trying. I've done it at least 100 times to varying degrees of success, but this probably is not exactly what a pro would do (I was a high diamond player). 1 gate expansion (Take the probe that made the expansion and have it mine from natural one time and then rally it to your wall) MSC @100 cyber Warp Gate Pylon Zealot 2x Gate after the pylon finishes (to make a wall) @100% Zealot: Stalker @19 probes on minerals at main: 2nd gas @100% Stalker: move out with Zealot, Stalker, MSC, and probe (if you don't have a proxy pylon yet) Sentry Stargate After Sentry finishes, turn gates into warp gates Warp in 3 zealots (or 2 zealots and 1 stalker, whatever your preference is) - This should be at 7:00 3rd gas at natural Pylon (Don't forget or you will be supply blocked) When your SG finishes, make a void ray and take a third off of the Void Ray. At the same time as your third, make a twilight council and a forge. Then, make a templar archives and get storm. Keep making Void Rays, chargelots, and Templars. Make sure you constantly use hallucinations (you want about 5 sentries) in order to scout if the Zerg is going Roach/Hydra, Muta, or SH. Make sure your infrastructure counters what the Zerg is doing. If you are able to kill the third (or force a cancel) with the 3 gate attack, you are in a decent position. Even if you don't, you should be constantly chronoboosting workers at home, so you will be at worst even with the Zerg on economy. Replay: http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4714263 one of my replays, but I think it should be sufficient to help you with the build. You just need to practice it enough times until the build becomes second nature. Lastly, if you want to put on more pressure, you can add a 4th gate, chronoboost your cyber core once, and skip taking your second gas. This push hits at around 6:30 with 5 zealots and a stalker. This attack is a bit more all-in but has the power to kill a Zerg. PvT: Macro Blink The best way to explain this build would be to have you watch these two videos. Both of these videos have different styles, but the plan is basically the same. This build gets an early blink and stalkers in order to force the Terran to play defensive. This attack hits at around 8:00 and isn't designed to kill, only to buy time for AoE. Day9 Daily on Patience's PvT HerO vs Polt IEM Both of these builds are really good attacks that aren't all-ins. It might be hard to do them at first, but practice makes perfect! PvP: ??? In PvP, you should either go for a solid expand build or a one-base attack. There are no macro pressure builds for PvP. Rely on scouting. That's all I can tell you  IEM Sao Paolo Finals herO demonstrates some great Macro PvP stargate builds. Of course, a stargate play can always just go Oracle instead of Phoenix if you opponent scouts the Stargate. Just watch out for DTs! You should watch the finals between herO and MC. I would recommend Games 1 and 3 for the SG openings. I hope this helps! | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On February 26 2014 07:38 Corazon wrote: PvP: ??? In PvP, you should either go for a solid expand build or a one-base attack. There are no macro pressure builds for PvP. Rely on scouting. That's all I can tell you IEM Sao Paolo Finals herO demonstrates some great Macro PvP stargate builds. Of course, a stargate play can always just go Oracle instead of Phoenix if you opponent scouts the Stargate. Just watch out for DTs! You should watch the finals between herO and MC. I would recommend Games 1 and 3 for the SG openings. I hope this helps! I always recommend this thread to every Protoss player: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422646 Scouting is everything in early PvP, but a lot of things can be ruled out simply by knowing your timings and having a solid, dependable build. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 26 2014 10:42 SC2John wrote: I always recommend this thread to every Protoss player: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422646 Scouting is everything in early PvP, but a lot of things can be ruled out simply by knowing your timings and having a solid, dependable build. Scouting early in PvP is about to become a lot more difficult with the vision nerf to MSC, I wonder if this is going to result in a trend of more people doing robo based openers on one base and later expands to be more safe. Ugh, it's so hard to figure out how trends will develop in PvP because of how hard any stargate build crushes any robo build, and any robo build crushes any twilight build. Stargate builds are all-around solid even against blink builds if you play correctly, so I dunno, I guess stargate builds are just going to remain the safest, most solid choice in general? Anyone have any thoughts regarding tech choices in PvP after the vision nerf goes through? I feel like I might wind up having to go back to one base phoenix openers almost every game because the msc won't reliably see as much from the opponent's base. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On February 26 2014 12:04 Whitewing wrote: Scouting early in PvP is about to become a lot more difficult with the vision nerf to MSC, I wonder if this is going to result in a trend of more people doing robo based openers on one base and later expands to be more safe. Ugh, it's so hard to figure out how trends will develop in PvP because of how hard any stargate build crushes any robo build, and any robo build crushes any twilight build. Stargate builds are all-around solid even against blink builds if you play correctly, so I dunno, I guess stargate builds are just going to remain the safest, most solid choice in general? Anyone have any thoughts regarding tech choices in PvP after the vision nerf goes through? All in all, though, I don't think the vision nerf affects PvP too much since most of your scouting is based off of either 1) probe scout @3:30ish and/or @5:30ish, 2) stalker pokes to check for pylons/pressure, and 3) definitive scouting tools such as hallucination scouts, stargate units, or observers. The MSC usually only checks for proxies and sometimes scouts with twilight openers. The MSC scout used in twilight openings is more common now due to the resurgence in oracle openings. With the nerf of MSC vision, we may see the return of blink/obs (or blink builds disappear entirely) and either stargate openers or very safe robo expands start to emerge. I'm not sure if proxy play will become more prevalent. | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
I've said it before that this might just break templar openings, I just can't believe they're are going to buff it this much as well know blizzard does not "tone down" a buff once it's done. could have been 40 +15 or something small but nope User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 26 2014 12:20 SC2John wrote: All in all, though, I don't think the vision nerf affects PvP too much since most of your scouting is based off of either 1) probe scout @3:30ish and/or @5:30ish, 2) stalker pokes to check for pylons/pressure, and 3) definitive scouting tools such as hallucination scouts, stargate units, or observers. The MSC usually only checks for proxies and sometimes scouts with twilight openers. The MSC scout used in twilight openings is more common now due to the resurgence in oracle openings. With the nerf of MSC vision, we may see the return of blink/obs (or blink builds disappear entirely) and either stargate openers or very safe robo expands start to emerge. I'm not sure if proxy play will become more prevalent. It's not at all unusual to see someone send the MSC directly to the opponent base to get a scout off, and it almost always sees everything in the base. The vision range nerf will make that non-viable, as you'd have to poke so far in that a stalker will kill your msc for doing so. It's just gut feeling, but I definitely think we'll see more proxies and tricky builds. | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
And people say terran aggression is dead... | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 27 2014 05:36 Daimai wrote: What do to against a terran that opens mass proxy reaper (7-8 of them) into one base marine marauder medivac with stim, combat shields and the whole shebang? I tried to respond to the reapers by going blink stalkers but by then he already had a meaty force by then. And people say terran aggression is dead... We'd need to see a replay, but you really shouldn't bother with blink as a response, specifically, unless you were planning on doing it anyway early on. Stalkers without blink do fine against reapers, frankly I would have just gone for a normal 1 gate expand and just made extra stalkers non-stop. Scouting what terran is doing while he does this is very important. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On February 27 2014 05:36 Daimai wrote: What do to against a terran that opens mass proxy reaper (7-8 of them) into one base marine marauder medivac with stim, combat shields and the whole shebang? I tried to respond to the reapers by going blink stalkers but by then he already had a meaty force by then. And people say terran aggression is dead... One rax at home, one proxied? Or two rax proxied? | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On February 27 2014 05:36 Daimai wrote: What do to against a terran that opens mass proxy reaper (7-8 of them) into one base marine marauder medivac with stim, combat shields and the whole shebang? I tried to respond to the reapers by going blink stalkers but by then he already had a meaty force by then. And people say terran aggression is dead... scout it and build as Msc. reapers dont shoot up | ||
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SpiZe
Canada3640 Posts
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